Evolution, one more argument against

Job 33:6

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On the above post, @Buzzard3 , I'd be curious to hear, based on post #71, how you think that Shubin and their team had discovered transitionals presented in the video, if evolution were not true. More specifically, why would the fossils be in the geographic location and at the superpositional depth that they were found, if not due to evolution? How to you think they were able to successfully make the prediction on the locality to investigate?

I ask this question, but the truth is that such a question cannot be answered by anyone who denies evolution.

Maybe it would be more important to ask if critics understand how the prediction was made. And if they could demonstrate an understanding by explaining it themselves. But I suspect that no critic of the theory could do this either.
 
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BPPLEE

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You know that he’s an argument for pro science right? At every point something newly discovered has to be verified. Now the overwhelming majority of people know he was correct . Just like the overwhelming majority of people know evolution is correct. Anyways…. I’m not going to continue going back and forth with you. It’s a waste of my time to uselessly correct someone over middle school science.

But what it means when someone does not understand evolution is that they are uneducated on the subject. Yes that is what almost everyone believes. When someone can’t understand evolution X it means they really don’t understand the basis of any earth science. You’ve not demonstrated any understanding of it and you’ve not been able to counter any statements. So I can’t continue to spend hours in segments of daily responses to you and others like you. I wish this site allowed people to block others so that they can continue on without the annoyance. So the best thing I can do is just completely ignore you. So this is my last response to a few of y’all.
Click on their avatar and there is an option to ignore.
 
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Buzzard3

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Job 33:6

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It's a very sad state of affairs when Christians malign other Christians as "dishonest" simply for expressing a legitimate scientific point of view.

It's not a legitimate scientific point of view. Looks around for a response to the rest of the post*

How can you claim them to be honest when you haven't addressed my statement of why they are dishonest in the same post?

Al Capone had lawyers that argued that he was an honest person, but if you can't address the substance, then it only demonstrates an empty position. How would you know whether or not Casey Luskin is an honest person, if you can't address the topic?


Perhaps I would wait my whole life for this, from post #81:
"I ask this question, but the truth is that such a question cannot be answered by anyone who denies evolution.

Maybe it would be more important to ask if critics understand how the prediction was made. And if they could demonstrate an understanding by explaining it themselves. But I suspect that no critic of the theory could do this either."

Of course my words appear to have been true in the end. All day long, I have held out my hands. Though I'll patiently continue to wait for a response that I know I'll never receive.

 
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Buzzard3

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On the above post, @Buzzard3 , I'd be curious to hear, based on post #71, how you think that Shubin and their team had discovered transitionals presented in the video, if evolution were not true.
Evolution is "true"? Since when is a scientific theory "true"?

Tiktaalik doesn't prove that evolution is true.
More specifically, why would the fossils be in the geographic location and at the superpositional depth that they were found, if not due to evolution?
I don't know. What happened 375 Mya is mysterious.
How to you think they were able to successfully make the prediction on the locality to investigate?
I don't know.
I ask this question, but the truth is that such a question cannot be answered by anyone who denies evolution.
Maybe it would be more important to ask if critics understand how the prediction was made. And if they could demonstrate an understanding by explaining it themselves. But I suspect that no critic of the theory could do this either.
Does Tiktaalik prove that land animals evolved from fish?
 
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Job 33:6

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Evolution is "true"? Since when is a scientific theory "true"?

Tiktaalik doesn't prove that evolution is true.

I don't know. What happened 375 Mya is mysterious.

I don't know.

Does Tiktaalik prove that land animals evolved from fish?


Regarding the prediction, you said " I don't know".

Do you at least understand the logic behind how the prediction was made? Can you demonstrate that you understand how the prediction was made?

Simply saying "I don't know" doesn't demonstrate an understanding of how the prediction was made, regardless of whether or not you think the theory is true or not.

If you at least understand how the prediction was made, then you could see how it proves evolution.

And I would be more than happy to explain the subject, ultimately if you can't understand how it's done, then you won't understand why people support the theory.
 
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Buzzard3

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Regarding the prediction, you said " I don't know".

Do you at least understand the logic behind how the prediction was made? Can you demonstrate that you understand how the prediction was made?

Simply saying "I don't know" doesn't demonstrate an understanding of how the prediction was made, regardless of whether or not you think the theory is true or not.

If you at least understand how the prediction was made, then you could see how it proves evolution.

And I would be more than happy to explain the subject, ultimately if you can't understand how it's done, then you won't understand why people support the theory.
I don't understand the bit about knowing which "locality" to look in.
 
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Job 33:6

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I don't understand the bit about knowing which "locality" to look in.

Around 12 minutes in, Shubin discusses the main factors needed to find or discover certain fossils. And they're pretty standard. Anyone can do what he is describing and I always recommend that if people doubt what is being described, try it for yourself.

He said #1 being finding rocks of the right age. We know fish were present in the Cambrian and Silurian, while tetrapods we're present in the late Devonian. And so if you want to find rocks that have a fish with legs, step one is to look for rocks between fish and between animals with legs. Because not all rock has terrestrial vertebrates. So, he identifies early to mid Devonian rock, in this case in central Pennsylvania.

His second consideration, is to find rocks of the right environment. Prehistoric environment. So if you find cooled magma, you probably won't find fossils in it. Nor metamorphic rocks. So he looks to sedimentary. But even further, there are marine sedimentary rocks like limestones, there are shallow marine shales, there are terrestrial shales, and there are sandstones. Typically in cyclothems you can identify the depth of an ocean, or in this case more specifically, Shubin describes Devonian prehistoric river deltas which were present off the west side of a prehistoric mountain chain called the Acadian mountains which migrated into central north America during the Devonian.

So he's looking to see, am I too far west in a prehistoric shallow water? Or am I too far east into and into dry land? Am I too far west that I'm pushing into the Silurian? Or am I too far east that I'm pushing into the carboniferous?

And if you look at a geologic map of Pennsylvania, it can make much more sense. Because in Pennsylvania, as you travel in different directions, because rocks are tilted, you basically travel through time. Go south and you're going to be going backwards in time to Cambrian marine rock. Go northeast and you'll push into ordovician then silurian then Devonian, then carboniferous rock, in that order (I'm not familiar with Permian layers in that region).

So he's navigating a geologic map, both in time and space and in the nature of the rock. And he finds ancient river beds, identified in lacustrine prehistoric river deposites. Rivers where presumably if fish evolved into land species, at a certain time in history, they presumably would live in a river not too far from the ocean.

And anyone can get a geologic map of the state they live in and can go out and look and see what's there. It's not anything particularly complicated. But in truth, such a plan and such logic is only possible given a very precise and well-known nature of a fossil succession.

So we have time/space, then we have lithology/environment. And the third thing he mentions is simply needing the rock to be present at the surface. So something that he doesn't need to invest in heavy drilling or excavating machinery to get to. Things present in road cuts on on eroding hills where fossils are falling out of the rock that are easy to get to.

And anyone can follow these steps, anyone can go on Google and just search geologic map of X state or Y country. Digital maps are available through USGS and on apps like the "ROCKD" app. Then all you really need is a study pair of boots and a rock hammer, and you can test any of these ideas, anyone can, quite easily.

And so, we backtrack a bit to Casey luskins article for analysis. Where he basically says that...X trace fossils we're found, Y team of scientists argues that they are tetrapod foot tracks. Those fossils exist roughly 10 million years earlier than tiktaalik, therefore evolution isn't true.

But, let's unwrap that. If tetrapods, land animals, were present in the Cambrian, It would be a huge blow to the theory of evolution, because as you know and as we all know, the Cambrian has things like worms and really basil fish, arthropods, soft-bodied animals, bizarre things. And so to say that a land animal existed in this time would be scientifically outrageous, and it would blow the whole theory up. In contrast, if tetrapods or fish-like tetrapodomorphs we're first identified, say, in the Cenozoic, it wouldn't logically make sense, Because animals like mammals and birds are very highly derived. For example, how could birds exist before land amphibians? If evolution were true?

And so, with Casey luskins argument, If these trace fossils were in the carboniferous through the late cenozoic to present day, Or if the fossils were in the Cambrian or ordovician, it would disprove the theory of evolution.

But what Casey luskin is saying, is that tetrapod tracks in the Devonian, in a time almost identical to what Neil Shubin is looking at, luskin is arguing that if this were true, it would disprove evolution.

But of course that doesn't make any sense because their time, the mid Devonian or so, is almost identical to the timing in which Shubin is looking. And Shubin of course is making his prediction on the pretext that evolution is true, based on ordovician fish and late Devonian tetrapods.

But it gets worst when you go further and see that even the trace fossils have no associated bone material. How many times have critics of evolution argued that scientists are doing a bad job because they are making claims based off of one tooth or one finger bone. Here, Casey luskin is making an argument without a single bone.

But it gets worse still, when we find that even those trace fossils are contested as fish feeding trace fossils.

But what does it all matter if the trace fossils are right where evolution suggests that they should be anyway?

And Casey luskin knows all this, but he's doing some kind of incredible mental gymnastics to pull it off. All the while, he will never talk about why these Devonian tetrapods are even Devonian to begin with, And why these aren't in the Cambrian where the Permian or in the Cenozoic etc.

He will do mental gymnastics to make this argument, but he won't address the real bread and butter, the real meat of the situation. He won't talk about how Neil shubin and the Polish researchers are making their predictions to begin with.

And so we end up in this situation where luskan is trying to argue that the fossil succession doesn't actually exist and that fossils are out of order with what evolution predicts, but he's using research involving discoveries that were made based on what the fossil succession ought to look like if evolution were true.

And, It's simply dishonest. If tetrapod bones were in the Cambrian, okay that's something worth writing about. If the fossils are in the Triassic, okay that's a huge argument. But trying to argue about other tetrapod fossils that are contested in the Devonian where they presumeably would be if evolution were true anyway? That's just dishonest.
 
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Buzzard3

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And so, we backtrack a bit to Casey luskins article for analysis. Where he basically says that...X trace fossils we're found, Y team of scientists argues that they are tetrapod foot tracks. Those fossils exist roughly 10 million years earlier than tiktaalik, therefore evolution isn't true ...

And so, with Casey luskins argument, If these trace fossils were in the carboniferous through the late cenozoic to present day, Or if the fossils were in the Cambrian or ordovician, it would disprove the theory of evolution.

But what Casey luskin is saying, is that tetrapod tracks in the Devonian, in a time almost identical to what Neil Shubin is looking at, luskin is arguing that if this were true, it would disprove evolution.
... except the parts where you say Casey Luskin argues that "therefore evolution isn't true" and that "it would disprove the theory of evolution" are demonstrably untrue - some would call them blatant lies. Nowhere in that article does Luskin argue that position - he merely argues that Tiktaalik may not be the transitional fossil that it's cracked up to be.

So who's being dishonest now?

You're credibility rating just got downgraded to zero.
 
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Job 33:6

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... except the parts where you say Casey Luskin argues that "therefore evolution isn't true" and that "it would disprove the theory of evolution" are demonstrably untrue - some would call them blatant lies. Nowhere in that article does Luskin argue that position - he merely argues that Tiktaalik may not be the transitional fossil that it's cracked up to be.

So who's being dishonest now?

You're credibility rating just got downgraded to zero.

If that's the best you have to respond with, I'm fine with that.

"“the theory of evolution is really no longer a theory in the sense of being untested. It is a theory in the sense of gravity. It is a fact.” But yet we see the “facts” of neo-Darwinism constantly being revised." -casey luskin

Yes, he's not trying to disprove it, he's just arguing that it isn't a fact. Tomayto, tomahto.

I would say that Casey Luskin and the DI's entire goal is to demonstrate that the theory of evolution is insufficient in explaining common ancestry. That's what they do for a living. Ie to disprove it. That's why they never list any articles in support of the theory despite there being thousands of research papers published on evolution that support the theory every day.

But regardless of what their goal is, the article still fails for the technical reasons listed above, regardless of what his motive is.

I made a relatively in depth post on the topic, and your response seems to relate to perhaps just a single sentence in everything that was said. No further response to how Shubin and his team made their prediction. No response to any of the technical details. Just a comment on goals of luskin. And that's the reality of critiques of evolution today, just an absence of a response.
 
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Think...

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You will note (I hope) that I said that the article is one more argument against evolution. How many do you want? Bombardier beetle? A parasitic wasp that's learned how to bypass a spider's protective defence network? How many wasps died in an attempt to attack the spider? How did that learned behaviour get passed onto the next generation of wasp? My dad was a boxer. I could not fight my way out of a paper bag.

How about fruit trees that are fertilised by just one kind of wasp? How did the tree survive until the wasp somehow realised that it was supposed to burrow into the fruit? If there was no fertilisation, there would be no tree. If there was no tree, there would be no wasp.

I've pasted links to my sources from time to time. There is a vast amount of information available that destroys the evolution myth.
I can't know if it's been posted in the 4 pages I haven't read yet, but there are also amazing examples in nature of trees/bushes being attacked by certain parasites causing the tree/bush to release very specific chemical scent signals (the language of insects) to call in the only type of wasps that feed on these specific parasites in order to save the tree/bush.

There is a more well known instance, from fairly recently, where a grove of Acacia trees was being over fed upon by a herd of Kudu, if I remember correctly. The Kudu began to die all over the area and scientists were baffled. They began to collect the carcasses and autopsy and study, at first finding the deaths to appear to be natural causes. Then, upon closer examination, and testing for specific chemicals, etc., they found toxic levels of a cyanogenic poison in their systems.

It turned out the Acacia trees were not only communicating with each other, by some uncertain means (probably scent chemicals in the air), but they had begun to all release, in concert, these cyanogenic poisons into their leaves to protect themselves from being over fed upon by the Kudu; ultimately thinning the herd considerably.

Yeah, ... these levels of complex communication, and seeming reasoning, among plants just don't evolve.

The foundation of the theory of Evolution position, for well over a century, has been based on randomness. This for the very purpose of separating from the concept of any inherent intelligence. Many proponents of the theory of Evolution today will claim that's not the case anymore. Why? Because they change their position on specific aspects of their case regularly.

The more Intelligent Design becomes incontrovertible, the more they shift their position.

The Truth never changes.
 
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Buzzard3

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That's why they never list any articles in support of the theory despite there being thousands of research papers published on evolution that support the theory every day.
You forgot to mention that Darwinist scientists are extremely biased and ignore any evidence that doesn't conform to their cherished theory. Imo, Darwinist scientists can't be trusted to tell the truth, and anyone who believes what they say is a fool.

That's why ID sites like the one Casey Luskin writes for (Evolution News | Reporting on intelligent design and evolution) are so important ... they provide a balanced view of ToE, exposing its many weaknesses.

And by the way, Casey Luskin and his colleagues accept that life evolved over billions of years ... what they don't accept is that ToE can explain how it happened.
 
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sfs

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Yeah, ... these levels of complex communication, and seeming reasoning, among plants just don't evolve.
Well, that's an opinion. What's your evidence that your opinion is correct?
The foundation of the theory of Evolution position, for well over a century, has been based on randomness. This for the very purpose of separating from the concept of any inherent intelligence. Many proponents of the theory of Evolution today will claim that's not the case anymore. Why? Because they change their position on specific aspects of their case regularly.
The theory of evolution (i.e., the theoretical understanding that explains the fact that life on earth has evolved) has always involved both random and nonrandom elements. It still does.
The more Intelligent Design becomes incontrovertible, the more they shift their position.
That's hard to say since Intelligent Design has never become incontrovertible. I've yet to see a good ID argument.
 
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sfs

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You forgot to mention that Darwinist scientists are extremely biased and ignore any evidence that doesn't conform to their cherished theory. Imo, Darwinist scientists can't be trusted to tell the truth, and anyone who believes what they say is a fool.
Should you have anything substantive to say, by all means post it. Insults may make you feel better but they really don't advance the discussion.
 
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sfs

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That's a personal issue that can only be addressed by yourself and whomever you select for help with that.
Well, I've sought help by reading arguments by Dembski, Behe, Johnson, Wells, Tour, Gonzalez, Sanford, and Denton. Clearly, you know of better arguments. Who's making them? Why aren't you making them?
Some indoctrination just can't be cracked.
Since you are here professing to know about the basis for my conclusions... How have I been indoctrinated?
 
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Job 33:6

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Um ... you believe mankind came from monkeys???

Monkeys? What are we living in the 60s again where creationists think that the theory involves evolution from monkeys?
 
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Think...

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Monkeys? What are we living in the 60s again where creationists think that the theory involves evolution from monkeys?
:)

You should read my original post #92 again.

Because you just proved the last point I made in it.

Creationism hasn't changed its position, or explanation, once in .... how many millennia?

Not lookin too good for your coveted scientific theory of evolution.
 
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