Ammillennialism and Pretribulationism both fly against the Early Church

TheCabinetGuy

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Irenaeus had it as the number of a name through Greek Gematria (and this was passed down by Polycarp and passed down by John as far as I know), but had a specific time to try calculating it, like if you calculate it randomly you'd get nothing useful, or you can game the system IE coming up with Ronald Reagan as Antichrist or whatever.

What Irenaeus taught was you wait for the 10 kings, and wait for the 10 kings to be terrorized by someone, check his name in Greek and calculate the number of his name, if it's 666, it's a bit of confirmation that this is really the guy, but the real confirmation is the Abomination of Desolation.
2 Thessalonians 2 indicates that's his 100% revelation.
With all due respect, Irenaeus was misled. Even the number values of name "Nimrod" in Hebrew or Greek gematria doesn't add up to 666. John didn't say that this was the way to calculate to number. He just said that if anyone has wisdom, let him calculate the number. The number 666 is also known as the "grand number of the sun." What was the greatest abomination Ezekiel saw in the temple in chapter 8? Notice the picture of the seal of God in the following chapter. It never had anything to do with the number values of someone's name. Names are given to us from birth, but titles on the other hand...
 
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Jamdoc

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With all due respect, Irenaeus was misled. Even the number values of name "Nimrod" in Hebrew or Greek gematria doesn't add up to 666. John didn't say that this was the way to calculate to number. He just said that if anyone has wisdom, let him calculate the number. The number 666 is also known as the "grand number of the sun." What was the greatest abomination Ezekiel saw in the temple in chapter 8? Notice the picture of the seal of God in the following chapter. It never had anything to do with the number values of someone's name. Names are given to us from birth, but titles on the other hand...
Why would Nimrod calculate to 666, 666 is for a specific name at a specific time doing specific things. It wouldn't apply to a historical person from thousands of years ago, because this was all yet future things from the time of Christ and from the times of the apostles and from the times of the Early Church Fathers.

John taught Polycarp, Polycarp taught Irenaeus. So the closest sources we have, are John's writings, and Irenaeus's writings. Everything else is extrapolated from John's writings but was not taught even indirectly by John in their meaning. Irenaeus would be the closest we could get to what did John mean? Everything else is just guesses.
 
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Timtofly

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Revelation also didn't indicate that people being rich was an end time's sign.

Rich merchants have always existed.
their existence is not pointed out as a sign. It's the global government of Babylon that is run by merchants that is more of a sign, and even then it's not given as something that happened suddenly, but rather was already in existence before the beast rose up. In fact Babylon rode the beast initially, that is, Babylon controlled the beast. The 10 Kings hate the harlot and destroy her, and then give their power to the beast.
That's the significance, not rich merchants existing.

The statement that I mean by a short time is that Jesus said that the person who witnessed the beginning of the end times prophecies being fulfilled, that generation of people would not pass away before all of it was fulfilled, including the 2nd coming.
Short time as in, 1 person's lifespan.

That's the connotation that Jesus was getting across. It was refuting that this was something that'd be so long that it'd be in history books.

as to the 69th week, think about this. Jesus was said to be crucified on a Friday, and spend 3 days buried before resurrecting. He resurrected on Sunday.
if you use modern western reckoning of time Jesus did not spend 72 hours buried and then raise up. Even if He was crucified the moment the sun went down on Thursday evening which began Friday for them, 24 hours later begins Saturday, 24 hours later begins Sunday... 24 hours later..
well Jesus didn't resurrect on Monday did He? No
But He spent 3 days buried by Jewish reckoning, because they count the day they currently are on.
So Jesus Crucified Friday, was buried Friday, so that's day 1, day 2 was Saturday, He was buried all day Saturday that's day 2, and on Sunday Morning He rose, on the 3rd day. He was actually buried for well less than 72 hours, I don't even know if it was a full 48.
So when they say after the 69th week, they mean after the 69th week begins, not after it ends.

The destruction of the sanctuary isn't a goal, but it is something mentioned as happening after Messiah was cut off in the 69th week.

an additional week begins after Messiah is cut off and after the Sanctuary is destroyed. The syntax gives that the 70th week happens after 70AD. Giving the 70th week as 70AD or before, is breaking the syntax of the text.

To get a 70AD fulfillment of the 70th week, you'd need to hyperallegorize the 69th week, and say that Messiah being cut off was destroying the sanctuary, and the "end coming as a flood".. wait even that doesn't work because the verse says the city is also destroyed.

so yeah you have a syntax error if you don't have the 70th week start AFTER the city and the sanctuary being destroyed.

Sin still affects the world and the consequence of sin, death, still affects even the elect. Forgiven or not we still die.

Jesus returning means there's still prophecy to be fulfilled, meaning that one of the express purposes of the 70 weeks has not been fulfilled no matter how you look at it.
"For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth."

You have horrible logic. According to you it should be 6 days because there is no difference between day and night. You would have to count the time twice because Jesus gave the number 3 two times, so that is 2 × 3.
 
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Jamdoc

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"For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth."

You have horrible logic. According to you it should be 6 days because there is no difference between day and night. You would have to count the time twice because Jesus gave the number 3 two times, so that is 2 × 3.

Okay so
Mark 15
42 And now when the even was come, because it was the preparation, that is, the day before the sabbath,
43 Joseph of Arimathaea, an honourable counsellor, which also waited for the kingdom of God, came, and went in boldly unto Pilate, and craved the body of Jesus.
44 And Pilate marvelled if he were already dead: and calling unto him the centurion, he asked him whether he had been any while dead.
45 And when he knew it of the centurion, he gave the body to Joseph.

The day before the Sabbath, that'd be the start of Friday, okay so he'd have been crucified on Thursday, Thursday evening came, it was now Friday by their reckoning when he was buried
so Friday evening, 24 hours later, what we'd call Friday Evening but it's reckoned as Saturday (the Sabbath) to them, starts day 2, 24 hours later, what we'd call Saturday evening by our reckoning they'd call Sunday, starts day 3, and sometime between then and the morning on Sunday, Jesus rose, and the women found an empty tomb.

Mark 16
2 And very early in the morning the first day of the week, they came unto the sepulchre at the rising of the sun.

So figure around 5-6am or so.
Still under 72 hours, though it would be over a full 48 hours, and by our way of reckoning would not count as 3 days and 3 nights
But Jews count the day they're currently on, they don't wait for that day to conclude, that'd be the 4th day for them.
 
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Timtofly

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Okay so
Mark 15


The day before the Sabbath, that'd be the start of Friday, okay so he'd have been crucified on Thursday, Thursday evening came, it was now Friday by their reckoning when he was buried
so Friday evening, 24 hours later, what we'd call Friday Evening but it's reckoned as Saturday (the Sabbath) to them, starts day 2, 24 hours later, what we'd call Saturday evening by our reckoning they'd call Sunday, starts day 3, and sometime between then and the morning on Sunday, Jesus rose, and the women found an empty tomb.

Mark 16


So figure around 5-6am or so.
Still under 72 hours, though it would be over a full 48 hours, and by our way of reckoning would not count as 3 days and 3 nights
But Jews count the day they're currently on, they don't wait for that day to conclude, that'd be the 4th day for them.
The Sabbath being prepared for that year was on a Thursday, so the body could not be prepared after 6pm that Wednesday. It was Passover Sabbath. Passover was never on Friday.

Jesus was more than likely not in the tomb after 6pm on Saturday, so was never in the tomb on Sunday at all. But the stone was not rolled away until 6am.

Jesus was in the tomb, Thursday, Friday, and Saturday, starting on the evening of Wednesday after 6pm. 3 evenings, and 3 mornings.
 
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Jamdoc

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The Sabbath being prepared for that year was on a Thursday, so the body could not be prepared after 6pm that Wednesday. It was Passover Sabbath. Passover was never on Friday.

Jesus was more than likely not in the tomb after 6pm on Saturday, so was never in the tomb on Sunday at all. But the stone was not rolled away until 6am.

Jesus was in the tomb, Thursday, Friday, and Saturday, starting on the evening of Wednesday after 6pm. 3 evenings, and 3 mornings.
the Sabbath is Saturday, always. It is given as a law that the 7th day is the Sabbath.
so the preparation day before the Sabbath, is Friday.
that is why they have "good Friday" though I suppose they're off, in that the crucifixion was Thursday but His burial was Friday evening (what we'd consider Thursday Evening)

But I suppose all of this is good exercise in showing that the Jews reckoned time differently than we do.
they start days at sundown rather than midnight, and count the day they're on rather than count the day after. When we say after 3 days we mean after 72 hours. When they say after 3 days, they mean after 48 hours and during that next 24 hours, just after the 3rd day has started rather than after it has finished.

and for instance, Hosea 6
2 After two days will he revive us: in the third day he will raise us up, and we shall live in his sight.
raising up in the 3rd day.
 
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Jerryhuerta

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Revelation also didn't indicate that people being rich was an end time's sign.

Rich merchants have always existed.
their existence is not pointed out as a sign. It's the global government of Babylon that is run by merchants that is more of a sign, and even then it's not given as something that happened suddenly, but rather was already in existence before the beast rose up. In fact Babylon rode the beast initially, that is, Babylon controlled the beast. The 10 Kings hate the harlot and destroy her, and then give their power to the beast.
That's the significance, not rich merchants existing.
Parroting that “rich merchants have always existed” shows you’re oblivious of Church history and why historicism trumps futurism and preterism. On the website Give Me History we are informed the merchants were on the bottom in society, which was the doing of the ecclesiocracy of the papacy,

Because merchants didn’t fit into the feudal system of the day, they got a lot of bad publicity from the church. The church felt merchants had no honor because their trade was profitable. They also didn’t own any land, which made them even more unpopular [4].​
The church named merchants “userers” since they didn’t produce their own products. Christians weren’t allowed to become merchants, so this profession mainly belonged to the Jewish people.​
Merchants weren’t regarded as part of the society since they didn’t own property and didn’t contribute to the development of the country. Merchants were also regarded as selfish and money hungry since they didn’t produce anything but sold the products made by others for a profit. GiveMeHisory

You’re trying to bury the sign in Revelation about the rich merchants. Church history, to which you’re oblivious, affirms the status of the merchants was held down by the papacy but rose through apostate Protestantism’s intercourse with the princes of the earth, which is the warning in Revelation 18,

And after these things I saw another angel come down from heaven, having great power; and the earth was lightened with his glory. And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird. For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies. And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues. (Revelation 18:1-4)​

The evidence that apostate Protestantism facilitated the rise of the merchants through their intercourse with the princes of the earth in our time affirms historicism, insomuch as it proves Revelation represents Church history and not that of the Jews in the first century or when Christ returns. The warning to come out of Babylon is to the Church, not the Jews.


The statement that I mean by a short time is that Jesus said that the person who witnessed the beginning of the end times prophecies being fulfilled, that generation of people would not pass away before all of it was fulfilled, including the 2nd coming.
Short time as in, 1 person's lifespan.

That's the connotation that Jesus was getting across. It was refuting that this was something that'd be so long that it'd be in history books.
What’s the point of the sign of the abomination of desolation to the raptured Church that’s not there to see it? How absurd, insomuch as the sign is for the believer, not the unbeliever. Furthermore, your argument hinges on conflating the end of the sacrifices in the temple and the abominations in Daniel 9:27. Again, the abominations in Daniel 9 are not one of the goals of the seventy weeks, while the end of the sacrifices for sin is,

Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city… to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness… (Daniel 9:24)​

The goal that the reconciliation for iniquity, which establishes everlasting righteousness, falls within the seventy weeks affirms the covenant, and the ending of “the sacrifice and the oblation” in verse 27 pertains to Christ’s work, not the antichrist, as the futurists assert. The end of the sin offerings is one of the goals of the seventy weeks, while the abomination of desolation and the destruction of the city are not. The goals of the seventy weeks must be met first before any interpretation of what lies outside of them is considered. (The Jews continued sin offering, but they weren’t worthwhile to God, any more than they would be in a rebuilt temple.)

as to the 69th week, think about this. Jesus was said to be crucified on a Friday, and spend 3 days buried before resurrecting. He resurrected on Sunday.
if you use modern western reckoning of time Jesus did not spend 72 hours buried and then raise up. Even if He was crucified the moment the sun went down on Thursday evening which began Friday for them, 24 hours later begins Saturday, 24 hours later begins Sunday... 24 hours later..
well Jesus didn't resurrect on Monday did He? No
But He spent 3 days buried by Jewish reckoning, because they count the day they currently are on.
So Jesus Crucified Friday, was buried Friday, so that's day 1, day 2 was Saturday, He was buried all day Saturday that's day 2, and on Sunday Morning He rose, on the 3rd day. He was actually buried for well less than 72 hours, I don't even know if it was a full 48.
So when they say after the 69th week, they mean after the 69th week begins, not after it ends.

The destruction of the sanctuary isn't a goal, but it is something mentioned as happening after Messiah was cut off in the 69th week.

an additional week begins after Messiah is cut off and after the Sanctuary is destroyed. The syntax gives that the 70th week happens after 70AD. Giving the 70th week as 70AD or before, is breaking the syntax of the text.

To get a 70AD fulfillment of the 70th week, you'd need to hyperallegorize the 69th week, and say that Messiah being cut off was destroying the sanctuary, and the "end coming as a flood".. wait even that doesn't work because the verse says the city is also destroyed.

so yeah you have a syntax error if you don't have the 70th week start AFTER the city and the sanctuary being destroyed.

Sin still affects the world and the consequence of sin, death, still affects even the elect. Forgiven or not we still die.

Jesus returning means there's still prophecy to be fulfilled, meaning that one of the express purposes of the 70 weeks has not been fulfilled no matter how you look at it.
Your attempt at inclusive reconning is outrageous, insomuch as verse 26 affirms Christ comes “after” the 62 weeks, which comes after the 7 according to verse 25,

And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined. (Daniel 9:26)​

After means following. Christ came “after” the 69 weeks, which is the seventieth week, and proves the covenant ending “the sacrifice and oblation” in verse 27 pertains to Christ’s work, one of the goals of the seventieth week.
 
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Jamdoc

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First off I'm done with the "rich merchants" thing, as it's not given as a sign but as a pre-existing state of the world

What’s the point of the sign of the abomination of desolation to the raptured Church that’s not there to see it? How absurd, insomuch as the sign is for the believer, not the unbeliever. Furthermore, your argument hinges on conflating the end of the sacrifices in the temple and the abominations in Daniel 9:27. Again, the abominations in Daniel 9 are not one of the goals of the seventy weeks, while the end of the sacrifices for sin is,
First off when did I ever say I supported a pre-trib rapture, read the title of this thread. I outright say pre-trib is unbiblical and does not fit what the Early Church believed. They were all premillennial, post trib or possibly pre-wrath but they were clear, that the Church would be persecuted by Antichrist.

The Abomination of Desolation is given as a sign for Believers. The 4 in the OD were not "Israel" as hard dispensationalists will claim but they re the first Church Fathers. JESUS said to understand the Abomination of Desolation and to pay attention and then DO something when it happens. That means that believes will see it and believers in Judea would have to flee immediately. Unbelievers aren't even going to read it, much less study it and pay attention to the signs.
Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city… to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness… (Daniel 9:24)​

The goal that the reconciliation for iniquity, which establishes everlasting righteousness, falls within the seventy weeks affirms the covenant, and the ending of “the sacrifice and the oblation” in verse 27 pertains to Christ’s work, not the antichrist, as the futurists assert. The end of the sin offerings is one of the goals of the seventy weeks, while the abomination of desolation and the destruction of the city are not. The goals of the seventy weeks must be met first before any interpretation of what lies outside of them is considered. (The Jews continued sin offering, but they weren’t worthwhile to God, any more than they would be in a rebuilt temple.)
The abomination of desolation and destruction of the city and sanctuary are not goals, but they are given as things that happen during the end, the destruction of the city and sanctuary given as happening after the 69th week after Messiah is cut off, but before the 70th week, and the Abomination of Desolation as happening during the 70th week.
Your attempt at inclusive reconning is outrageous, insomuch as verse 26 affirms Christ comes “after” the 62 weeks, which comes after the 7 according to verse 25,

And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined. (Daniel 9:26)​

After means following. Christ came “after” the 69 weeks, which is the seventieth week, and proves the covenant ending “the sacrifice and oblation” in verse 27 pertains to Christ’s work, one of the goals of the seventieth week.
we reckon time differently than the Hebrews. You're still not getting it.
When they say after the 62 weeks, they mean after the start of the 69th week, not after the end of it, it's during the 69th week.

the Early Church still saw the 70th week as in the future, and did not consider it fulfilled at Cavalry or 70AD. and that's the point of the thread.
 
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TheCabinetGuy

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Why would Nimrod calculate to 666, 666 is for a specific name at a specific time doing specific things. It wouldn't apply to a historical person from thousands of years ago, because this was all yet future things from the time of Christ and from the times of the apostles and from the times of the Early Church Fathers.

John taught Polycarp, Polycarp taught Irenaeus. So the closest sources we have, are John's writings, and Irenaeus's writings. Everything else is extrapolated from John's writings but was not taught even indirectly by John in their meaning. Irenaeus would be the closest we could get to what did John mean? Everything else is just guesses.
Nimrod doesn't calculate to 666. That was my point. When the antichrist shows up and the number values of his name don't add up to 666, I'm afraid a lot of people will be surprised and confused or worse- start to doubt God's word.
Yes Nimrod has been dead for thousands of years, but the Occult is alive and well. The antichrist will be like Nimrod, and some expect that he'll claim to be the reincarnation of Nimrod.
Remember that there is nothing new under the sun, including the infamous mark of the beast. Repeat Ezekiel chapters 8-9 on a global scale in the not too distant future. Continuous Historicism (which I teach) emphasizes the patterns seen in history which will all culminate in the end.
Most people have already seen at least one version of the mark of the beast. But a lot of us are duped into believing that its only a future danger. What happened in Nazi Germany should have been a huge wake up call to the world, and nobody was caught up in chariots of fire before the Holocaust. Most of my brothers and sisters are too busy debating the tech used in the mark and not enough warning about the coming one world religion. The new age religion is just the old deception repackaged. Transhumanism is just a repeat of that old lie that we can become like gods. It's simply the Occult combined with high-tech to make it look cool... 630fd67252502.image.jpg678816.jpg190px-Jain_Prateek_Chihna.svg.pngmain-qimg-89a295f520ea3decf99c1f006253167f-lq.jpg
 
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Jerryhuerta

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First off I'm done with the "rich merchants" thing, as it's not given as a sign but as a pre-existing state of the world


First off when did I ever say I supported a pre-trib rapture, read the title of this thread. I outright say pre-trib is unbiblical and does not fit what the Early Church believed. They were all premillennial, post trib or possibly pre-wrath but they were clear, that the Church would be persecuted by Antichrist.

The Abomination of Desolation is given as a sign for Believers. The 4 in the OD were not "Israel" as hard dispensationalists will claim but they re the first Church Fathers. JESUS said to understand the Abomination of Desolation and to pay attention and then DO something when it happens. That means that believes will see it and believers in Judea would have to flee immediately. Unbelievers aren't even going to read it, much less study it and pay attention to the signs.
In the final days, the emphasis is on coming out of Babylon to not receive her plagues and not flee from Jerusalem! The evidence that apostate Protestantism facilitated the rise of the merchants through their intercourse with the princes of the earth in our time affirms historicism, insomuch as it proves Revelation represents Church history and not that of the Jews in the first century or when Christ returns. The warning to come out of Babylon is to the Church, not the Jews.

The abomination of desolation and destruction of the city and sanctuary are not goals, but they are given as things that happen during the end, the destruction of the city and sanctuary given as happening after the 69th week after Messiah is cut off, but before the 70th week, and the Abomination of Desolation as happening during the 70th week.
The goal of the reconciliation for iniquity, which establishes everlasting righteousness, falls within the seventy weeks and affirms the covenant and the ending of “the sacrifice and the oblation” in verse 27 pertains to Christ’s work, not the antichrist’s, as futurists assert. I don’t see that you’ve surmounted that because you can’t. Verse 27 falls within an unbroken 70 weeks.

we reckon time differently than the Hebrews. You're still not getting it.
When they say after the 62 weeks, they mean after the start of the 69th week, not after the end of it, it's during the 69th week.

the Early Church still saw the 70th week as in the future, and did not consider it fulfilled at Cavalry or 70AD. and that's the point of the thread.
Your inclusive reckoning is bogus. Verse 26 affirms Christ comes “after” the 69th week, which, according to arithmetic we learned in grade school, means the 70th week, which agrees with verse 27, insomuch as the covenant that’s confirmed, which ends the “sacrifice and oblation,” pertains to Christ’s work.
 
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Jamdoc

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Nimrod doesn't calculate to 666. That was my point. When the antichrist shows up and the number values of his name don't add up to 666, I'm afraid a lot of people will be surprised and confused or worse- start to doubt God's word.
Yes Nimrod has been dead for thousands of years, but the Occult is alive and well. The antichrist will be like Nimrod, and some expect that he'll claim to be the reincarnation of Nimrod.
Remember that there is nothing new under the sun, including the infamous mark of the beast. Repeat Ezekiel chapters 8-9 on a global scale in the not too distant future. Continuous Historicism (which I teach) emphasizes the patterns seen in history which will all culminate in the end.
Most people have already seen at least one version of the mark of the beast. But a lot of us are duped into believing that its only a future danger. What happened in Nazi Germany should have been a huge wake up call to the world, and nobody was caught up in chariots of fire before the Holocaust. Most of my brothers and sisters are too busy debating the tech used in the mark and not enough warning about the coming one world religion. The new age religion is just the old deception repackaged. Transhumanism is just a repeat of that old lie that we can become like gods. It's simply the Occult combined with high-tech to make it look cool...View attachment 348078View attachment 348079View attachment 348080View attachment 348081

Or.. maybe the person who was closer to John who wrote Revelation, has a better idea of how it's calculated than you, and you're wrong.
 
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Jamdoc

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In the final days, the emphasis is on coming out of Babylon to not receive her plagues and not flee from Jerusalem! The evidence that apostate Protestantism facilitated the rise of the merchants through their intercourse with the princes of the earth in our time affirms historicism, insomuch as it proves Revelation represents Church history and not that of the Jews in the first century or when Christ returns. The warning to come out of Babylon is to the Church, not the Jews.


The goal of the reconciliation for iniquity, which establishes everlasting righteousness, falls within the seventy weeks and affirms the covenant and the ending of “the sacrifice and the oblation” in verse 27 pertains to Christ’s work, not the antichrist’s, as futurists assert. I don’t see that you’ve surmounted that because you can’t. Verse 27 falls within an unbroken 70 weeks.


Your inclusive reckoning is bogus. Verse 26 affirms Christ comes “after” the 69th week, which, according to arithmetic we learned in grade school, means the 70th week, which agrees with verse 27, insomuch as the covenant that’s confirmed, which ends the “sacrifice and oblation,” pertains to Christ’s work.
then the 70th week came before the destruction of the city and sanctuary by your logic, and the bible is wrong saying it is after Messiah is cut off and before the abomination of desolation.
 
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Jerryhuerta

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then the 70th week came before the destruction of the city and sanctuary by your logic, and the bible is wrong saying it is after Messiah is cut off and before the abomination of desolation.
History affirms the destruction came after the seventieth week, which doesn’t contradict Daniel because the destruction is not one of the goals of the seventy weeks. In verse 26, the Hebrew wə-’a-ḥă-rê is translated “after” as it is in every other usage in the OT, while in verse 27, the word wa-ḥă-ṣî is translated in the “midst” as it is in every usage. The point is that verse 26 conveys the start of Christ’s ministry and verse 27 its end. Daniel does not support dispensationalist dogma. Verse 27 falls within an unbroken 70 weeks, insomuch as Christ's establishment of the New Covenant and the ending of the "sacrifice and oblation" was one of the goals of the seventy weeks.
 
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Jamdoc

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History affirms the destruction came after the seventieth week, which doesn’t contradict Daniel because the destruction is not one of the goals of the seventy weeks. In verse 26, the Hebrew wə-’a-ḥă-rê is translated “after” as it is in every other usage in the OT, while in verse 27, the word wa-ḥă-ṣî is translated in the “midst” as it is in every usage. The point is that verse 26 conveys the start of Christ’s ministry and verse 27 its end. Daniel does not support dispensationalist dogma. Verse 27 falls within an unbroken 70 weeks, insomuch as Christ's establishment of the New Covenant and the ending of the "sacrifice and oblation" was one of the goals of the seventy weeks.
It doesn't matter if it's one of the goals.

It matters that scripture says it will happen, and places it after Messiah being cut off, but before the 70th week.

26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
Now. are you going to argue, that the city and sanctuary were destroyed in 30AD, or 33AD, when Christ was Crucified?

I sure hope not. So right there, you have prophecy being fulfilled after your supposed 70th week that was to seal up all prophecy.
then furthermore

27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
This happens after that week. Are you going to say this is a 71st week not contained in the 70 weeks?
 
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Jerryhuerta

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It doesn't matter if it's one of the goals.

It matters that scripture says it will happen, and places it after Messiah being cut off, but before the 70th week.


Now. are you going to argue, that the city and sanctuary were destroyed in 30AD, or 33AD, when Christ was Crucified?

I sure hope not. So right there, you have prophecy being fulfilled after your supposed 70th week that was to seal up all prophecy.
then furthermore


This happens after that week. Are you going to say this is a 71st week not contained in the 70 weeks?
Again, you’re obviously to the fact that the prophets did not write linearly.

For example, in Daniel 7:11, the prophet sees the end of the little horn when it’s destroyed and burnt. But in verse 20, Daniel goes back to the time the horn rises and gives us greater details of its actions; we see the same method used in chapter 9.

Daniel sees the destruction of the city, the sanctuary, and protracted desolations as ramifications of Christ being cut off, but then returns in the next verse and gives us another detail of Christ being cut off as the cause of the end of the “sacrifice and the oblation.” The end of the “sacrifice and the oblation” is one of the goals of the seventy weeks; the destruction of the city, sanctuary, and protracted desolations are not intended to fall within the seventy weeks, according to verse 24.

What is most offensive of the futurists' dogma is the perversion of Christ’s act in ending the sacrificial system making it a satanic act; it’s blasphemous. I was appalled by the idea the first time I heard it, and I’m still appalled today when someone tries to promote it.
 
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Jerryhuerta

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Historicism trumps futurism. We have lived in the time of the rich merchants for almost 200 years, and since the merchants were made rich through the harlot Babylon (Revelation 18:3), the harlot is history too. Historicism is the only proper way to decipher the allegories, insomuch as the symbolism isn't to be taken literally.
 
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Jamdoc

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Historicism trumps futurism. We have lived in the time of the rich merchants for almost 200 years, and since the merchants were made rich through the harlot Babylon (Revelation 18:3), the harlot is history too. Historicism is the only proper way to decipher the allegories, insomuch as the symbolism isn't to be taken literally.
Yeah hundreds of years, multiple people's lifespans,
an utterly
and useless
totally devoid of value
junk
garbage
"sign"

Is God really that bad? Making signposts that don't actually indicate anything?

No
but people are
people are that useless to make sign posts that mean nothing.
 
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Jerryhuerta

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Yeah hundreds of years, multiple people's lifespans,
an utterly
and useless
totally devoid of value
junk
garbage
"sign"

Is God really that bad? Making signposts that don't actually indicate anything?

No
but people are
people are that useless to make sign posts that mean nothing.
It's only junk to those who love simplicity.

The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge: but fools despise wisdom and instruction… How long, ye simple ones, will ye love simplicity? and the scorners delight in their scorning, and fools hate knowledge? (Proverbs 1:7, 22)​

Trying to bury the sign in Revelation about the rich merchants is the epitome of simplicity. Church history affirms the status of the merchants was held down by the papacy but rose through apostate Protestantism’s intercourse with the princes of the earth, which is the warning in Revelation 18,

And after these things I saw another angel come down from heaven, having great power; and the earth was lightened with his glory. And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird. For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies. And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues. (Revelation 18:1-4)​

The evidence that apostate Protestantism facilitated the rise of the merchants through their intercourse with the princes of the earth in our time affirms historicism, insomuch as it proves Revelation represents Church history and not that of the Jews in the first century or when Christ returns. The warning to come out of Babylon is to the Church, not the Jews.
 
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Jamdoc

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It's only junk to those who love simplicity.

The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge: but fools despise wisdom and instruction… How long, ye simple ones, will ye love simplicity? and the scorners delight in their scorning, and fools hate knowledge? (Proverbs 1:7, 22)​

Trying to bury the sign in Revelation about the rich merchants is the epitome of simplicity. Church history affirms the status of the merchants was held down by the papacy but rose through apostate Protestantism’s intercourse with the princes of the earth, which is the warning in Revelation 18,

And after these things I saw another angel come down from heaven, having great power; and the earth was lightened with his glory. And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird. For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies. And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues. (Revelation 18:1-4)​

The evidence that apostate Protestantism facilitated the rise of the merchants through their intercourse with the princes of the earth in our time affirms historicism, insomuch as it proves Revelation represents Church history and not that of the Jews in the first century or when Christ returns. The warning to come out of Babylon is to the Church, not the Jews.

It's a useless sign because it doesn't point to anything.
It's like putting a roadsign somewhere out in the middle of the desert with a city's name on it, without a distance, or even a direction just "hey it exists out there somewhere"

When God did give indications of something still a ways off, He gave time, like Daniel's 70 weeks.
when there's something an unknown distance away, as in Jesus didn't know when the day or hour would be, only the events would happen in quick succession, He gave signs to watch for, rather than a timeline, and those signs were to be close to the event so that people could watch for them and know what was coming next.
It was "when you see this, know it's close, even at the door"
not "when you see this, generations of people will live and die and something will happen someday"
 
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