Does man naturally have ability to Seek God ?

[zoidar]

What it says is that if a man (not God) has a hundred sheep and one goes astray, then he (the shepherd) goes out and seeks it and if he finds it then their is great rejoicing. Then comes the connection to God - even so there is great rejoicing in heaven over one sinner who repents.

One can, by implication, see a direct correlation between the man and God and, if one chooses, can assert that God does not always find His lost sheep (i.e. straying sinner). That raises serious problems, however, not the least of which is that although God might be omniscient (although this is in serious doubt if God has no idea where the straying sinner went and needs to go out and look for him) God is not omnipotent in that He is incapable of keeping His own sheep, which is in direct contradiction to John 10.

You bring up an important thing about the parables Luke 15:1-7 and Matthew 18:12-14. They are parables about sheep and shepherd and should probably not be understood to explain whether God always finds a person who strayed or not. The parables are about the joy of finding the lost, not about if the person lost always will be found.

Anyhow God does not use His raw power to find a sheep. If He did all would be found. The way God seeks the lost is by calling on them. If they respond they are found, if not they stay lost. So it's not a question of God's omnipotence, but a question of the person's response.

From John 10 one might ask if a sheep actually can stray since it's kept by the shepherd.

 

[John Mullally]

What it says is that if a man (not God) has a hundred sheep and one goes astray, then he (the shepherd) goes out and seeks it and if he finds it then their is great rejoicing. Then comes the connection to God - even so there is great rejoicing in heaven over one sinner who repents.

One can, by implication, see a direct correlation between the man and God and, if one chooses, can assert that God does not always find His lost sheep (i.e. straying sinner). That raises serious problems, however, not the least of which is that although God might be omniscient (although this is in serious doubt if God has no idea where the straying sinner went and needs to go out and look for him) God is not omnipotent in that He is incapable of keeping His own sheep, which is in direct contradiction to John 10.

This assumes that people are chosen as either sheep or not his sheep from eternity past and so lost sheep are straying sinners who will either be saved or restored. Its argument by definition.

You mentioned John 10 and in verses 25-33, Jesus labels his opponents who picked up stones to kill him "not his sheep", and yet in verses 37-38 Jesus makes an argument that they should become His followers based upon His works. Given that Jesus does not "cast pearls before swine", why is he trying to convince these "not his sheep" opponents to believe in him? It is because "not his sheep" does not necessarily mean reprobate. I view sheep as designating follower - and people are not born followers.

 

[Brightfame52]

In the context of Matthew 18:12-14, God does not always find His lost sheep. That is what it says isn't it?

. If God seeks He shall successfully find it and save it, do you doubt that ? And to imply God doesnt always find His Lost Sheep is Blasphemy !

 

[Brightfame52]

What it says is that if a man (not God) has a hundred sheep and one goes astray, then he (the shepherd) goes out and seeks it and if he finds it then their is great rejoicing. Then comes the connection to God - even so there is great rejoicing in heaven over one sinner who repents.

One can, by implication, see a direct correlation between the man and God and, if one chooses, can assert that God does not always find His lost sheep (i.e. straying sinner). That raises serious problems, however, not the least of which is that although God might be omniscient (although this is in serious doubt if God has no idea where the straying sinner went and needs to go out and look for him) God is not omnipotent in that He is incapable of keeping His own sheep, which is in direct contradiction to John 10.

In the Luke 15 narrative, its not a matter of if but when, everything is under a Divine timetable, a predetermined set time Lk 15:3-6

3 And he spake this parable unto them, saying,

4 What man of you, having an hundred sheep, if he lose one of them, doth not leave the ninety and nine in the wilderness, and go after that which is lost, until he find it?

5 And when he hath found it, he layeth it on his shoulders, rejoicing.

6 And when he cometh home, he calleth together his friends and neighbours, saying unto them, Rejoice with me; for I have found my sheep which was lost.

Notice Vs 4 says He goes after the Lost Sheep until He finds it, the seeking was successful ! Thats how it is with God, with Christ the Great Shepherd of the Sheep. To say He wont be successful in this venture, is very disrespectful to God and His Divine Ability

 

[zoidar]

. If God seeks He shall successfully find it and save it, do you doubt that ? And to imply God doesnt always find His Lost Sheep is Blasphemy !

God does not use His raw power to find a sheep. If He did all would be found. The way God seeks the lost is by calling on them. If they respond they are found, if not they stay lost. So it's not a question of God's omnipotence, but a question of the person's response. And no it's not blasphemy.

 

[Brightfame52]

God does not use His raw power to find a sheep. If He did all would be found. The way God seeks the lost is by calling on them. If they respond they are found, if not they stay lost. So it's not a question of God's omnipotence, but a question of the person's response. And no it's not blasphemy.

. If God seeks He shall successfully find it and save it, do you doubt that ? And to imply God doesnt always find His Lost Sheep is Blasphemy !

 

[zoidar]

. If God seeks He shall successfully find it and save it, do you doubt that ? And to imply God doesnt always find His Lost Sheep is Blasphemy !

Why does God need to seek after His sheep? Doesn't He know where it is?

The reason I say this is because you got the wrong idea of what God seeking His sheep means. That is why I can't answer you with "yes" or "no".

 

[Brightfame52]

Why does God need to seek after His sheep? Doesn't He know where it is?

The reason I say this is because you got the wrong idea of what God seeking His sheep means. That is why I can't answer you with "yes" or "no".

If God seeks He shall successfully find it and save it, do you doubt that ? And to imply God doesnt always find His Lost Sheep is Blasphemy !

 

[John Mullally]

If God seeks He shall successfully find it and save it, do you doubt that ? And to imply God doesnt always find His Lost Sheep is Blasphemy !

You have a habit of repeating yourself without explaining your position - which would be helpful. And the blasphemy charge does not help your non-argument.

 

[bbbbbbb]

Your conclusions are not entirely accurate. We know that God knows everything and everyone. But then He tells us that there will be some at Judgement the He "NEVER KNEW". We can understand from this that "know" does not mean "to have knowledge of", but does mean "to have relationship with". That being the case, we can also see that God may "know" where the lost sheep is, but still have to "seek" to bring that sheep back into His fold. One who was in the fold, but falls back into unrepentant sin and remains there will be lost (James 5:19-20). But God is seeking him out through those of us who remain in the Light, and through us, He seeks to draw them back into the fold. They may not come, but He doesn't stop seeking to draw them back. So, "IF He finds them" does mean that there are some He may not reach again.

According to Hebrews 6:4-8 . . .

4 For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame. 7 For ground that drinks the rain which often falls on it and brings forth vegetation useful to those for whose sake it is also tilled, receives a blessing from God; 8 but if it yields thorns and thistles, it is worthless and close to being cursed, and it ends up being burned.

If this is true, then why in the world would God be seeking for an individual who can never be saved, nor be one of His sheep?

 

[Doug Brents]

According to Hebrews 6:4-8 . . .

4 For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame. 7 For ground that drinks the rain which often falls on it and brings forth vegetation useful to those for whose sake it is also tilled, receives a blessing from God; 8 but if it yields thorns and thistles, it is worthless and close to being cursed, and it ends up being burned.

If this is true, then why in the world would God be seeking for an individual who can never be saved, nor be one of His sheep?

I see the conflict you are pointing out between this passage and James 5:19-20.
"My brothers and sisters, if anyone among you strays from the truth and someone turns him back, 20 let him know that the one who has turned a sinner from the error of his way will save his soul from death and cover a multitude of sins."
My understanding is that the one in Heb 6 is completely fallen away and refuses to return to repentance, but the one in James has only strayed from the truth and is willing to turn back. So I believe that, as has been pointed out before, that the difference is in the response of the sheep. God seeks the sheep (and being God, omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent) He knows where the sheep is. But it is the sheep's response (to turn back to God, or to remain turned away) that determines whether it is brought back into the fold.

 

[Brightfame52]

You have a habit of repeating yourself without explaining your position - which would be helpful. And the blasphemy charge does not help your non-argument.

If God seeks He shall successfully find it and save it, do you doubt that ? And to imply God doesnt always find His Lost Sheep is Blasphemy ! BTW I been explaining my view since the OP