Does man naturally have ability to Seek God ?

[John Mullally]

My problem comes with the two identical psalms which are quoted by Paul in Romans 3 where it is unambiguously stated that there are none who seek God, not even one. One possible view is that, although there are none who seek God, all are equally capable of seeking God. The fact that none exercise that ability still remains.

As you have been consistently pointing out, scripture also indicates that there are, indeed, some who do seek God, such as Paul was on his way to Damascus. If there are some who do seek God, but not everyone seeks God, then you have two classes of individuals rather than one.

Is this understandable?

Perhaps "none seek after God" just means that man does not take the initial steps in seeking to bridge the gap with our God. who seeks after our benefit as displayed by Jesus. That is how I reconcile Acts 17:27 with Romans 3:9-12. And it preserves 1 Timothy 2:4.

 

[bbbbbbb]

Perhaps "none seek after God" just means that man does not take the initial steps in seeking to bridge the gap with our God. who seeks after our benefit as displayed by Jesus. That is how I reconcile Acts 17:27 with Romans 3:9-12. And it preserves 1 Timothy 2:4.

The problem I have with that interpretation is that none of the three contexts in the psalms and Romans 3 support the idea that man, at any point, takes a step to seek God. All three of the passages present a really stark and dismal view of human depravity.

So, the question arises as to how Acts 17:27 (not to mention multiple other verses in Acts) can be understood relative to the aforementioned passages. If we place Acts 17:27 in its context, we see Paul asserting that all mankind are the children of God. That would make him a universalist, if we assume that he defines being a son of God as he does in Romans 8:14 when he states - For all who are being led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. There is a very obvious problem with the Mars Hill sermon by Paul, not the least of which is his statement that everyone is a child of god.

In Athens it is apparent that Paul skillfully molded his message to his audience. He noted the altar to the unknown god and tied that to the Jewish God. He informed his audience that God knows that sincere folks are already worshiping Him, even though He is unknown to them, thus placing the Athens altar on a similar basis as the altar of the Temple in Jerusalem(!!!). He then tells his audience that they are, indeed, sons of God even as one of their poets had written.

All of this runs counter to orthodox Christian beliefs expressed in both the Old and New Testaments. Probably the most convenient way of looking at this is simply that Paul was being a Gentile to a Gentile audience, having become all things to all people. He laid a foundation here for syncretism such that members of his audience could have easily gone away with the idea that Jesus Christ was yet another god to add to their pantheon without any fuss.

It is not at all unlike Peter in his slide into legalism when he was living among legalistic Jewish believers. In Galatians 1 Paul wrote that he rebuked Peter to his face for this problem.

So, if one chooses to embrace Paul's sermon on Mars Hill at face value (and there is no specific denial of it in scripture) then one must accept all of his points, which include universalism and syncretism, as well as the concept, which Paul subsequently contradicted himself, that people do seek God.

 

[John Mullally]

The problem I have with that interpretation is that none of the three contexts in the psalms and Romans 3 support the idea that man, at any point, takes a step to seek God. All three of the passages present a really stark and dismal view of human depravity.

So, the question arises as to how Acts 17:27 (not to mention multiple other verses in Acts) can be understood relative to the aforementioned passages. If we place Acts 17:27 in its context, we see Paul asserting that all mankind are the children of God. That would make him a universalist, if we assume that he defines being a son of God as he does in Romans 8:14 when he states - For all who are being led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. There is a very obvious problem with the Mars Hill sermon by Paul, not the least of which is his statement that everyone is a child of god.

In the Acts 17 message to lost and unsaved Athenians, the apostle Paul said they were “the children of God,” at least by creation, and indeed, all men are created in the image of God. Moreover, since God values Himself, it stands to reason that He would value those whom He created in His own image: “So do not fear; you are more valuable than many sparrows.” (Matthew 10:31)

Paul encouraged these “children of God” to “seek God” and to “find Him,” which means that God perpetually makes Himself available. God wants to be found, but only on His terms, and He positions Himself as “not far from each one of us” in order that, by faith, we may discover Him.

So, if one chooses to embrace Paul's sermon on Mars Hill at face value (and there is no specific denial of it in scripture) then one must accept all of his points, which include universalism and syncretism, as well as the concept, which Paul subsequently contradicted himself, that people do seek God.

It is not my problem if by your reasoning you cannot embrace Paul's sermon on Mars Hill at face value.

 

[Brightfame52]

@John Mullally

Saying that mankind does not seek God on its own is not proof that one cannot reply or respond positively to a God who seeks to save the lost

Those God seeks, will respond positively since He seeks and saves them, Duh

Do you mean to imply there are some God seeks and yet they will remain lost and perish ?

 

[Brightfame52]

Why do you think Matt 18 says "if".

“What do you think? If any man has a hundred sheep, and one of them has gone astray, does he not leave the ninety-nine on the mountains and go and search for the one that is straying? If it turns out that he finds it, truly I say to you, he rejoices over it more than over the ninety-nine which have not gone astray. So it is not the will of your Father who is in heaven that one of these little ones perish.
— Matthew 18:12-14

I dont think nothing of the if. If God seeks He shall successfully find it and save it, do you doubt that ?

 

[zoidar]

I dont think nothing of the if. If God seeks He shall successfully find it and save it, do you doubt that ?

I will just tell what the parable says. If the man searching for his sheep finds it, there will be great joy. What does it tell you?

 

[bbbbbbb]

In the Acts 17 message to lost and unsaved Athenians, the apostle Paul said they were “the children of God,” at least by creation, and indeed, all men are created in the image of God. Moreover, since God values Himself, it stands to reason that He would value those whom He created in His own image: “So do not fear; you are more valuable than many sparrows.” (Matthew 10:31)

Paul encouraged these “children of God” to “seek God” and to “find Him,” which means that God perpetually makes Himself available. God wants to be found, but only on His terms, and He positions Himself as “not far from each one of us” in order that, by faith, we may discover Him.

It is not my problem if by your reasoning you cannot embrace Paul's sermon on Mars Hill at face value.

It is not my problem that you do not accept Paul's sermon on Mars Hill at face value, but extract one verse from it to take at face value.

 

[John Mullally]

It is not my problem that you do not accept Paul's sermon on Mars Hill at face value, but extract one verse from it to take at face value.

You just got through arguing that Paul's sermon on Mar's Hill affirms universalism and syncretism - which if true would be a problem. I don't agree with that observation.

So, if one chooses to embrace Paul's sermon on Mars Hill at face value (and there is no specific denial of it in scripture) then one must accept all of his points, which include universalism and syncretism, as well as the concept, which Paul subsequently contradicted himself, that people do seek God.

I see a big difference between man seeking God of his own volition (which is addressed in Romans 3:9-12), and man responding to our God who seeks us out (which is told in Acts 17:27).

 

[Brightfame52]

I will just tell what the parable says. If the man searching for his sheep finds it, there will be great joy. What does it tell you?

I dont think nothing of the if. If God seeks He shall successfully find it and save it, do you doubt that ?

 

[zoidar]

I dont think nothing of the if. If God seeks He shall successfully find it and save it, do you doubt that ?

I think it means what it literally says. If God finds that lost person there will be great joy. "If" means it doesn't always come to pass. That is one reason the joy is so great when the person is found. A question one might ask is in what way does God seek the lost.

 

[bbbbbbb]

You just got through arguing that Paul's sermon on Mar's Hill affirms universalism and syncretism - which if true would be a problem. I don't agree with that observation.

I see a big difference between man seeking God of his own volition (which is addressed in Romans 3:9-12), and man responding to our God who seeks us out (which is told in Acts 17:27).

I merely stated that if one takes Paul's sermon on Mars Hill at face value, one would naturally conclude that he was a universalist (all men are children of God) as well as a syncretist (we worship the same god you do, but you simply don't know His name yet).

It is not my problem that you reject Paul's statements on Mars Hill except for one verse, is it?

 

[bbbbbbb]

I think it means what it literally says. If God finds that lost person there will be great joy. "If" means it doesn't always come to pass. That is one reason the joy is so great when the person is found. A question one might ask is in what way does God seek the lost.

Do think that it is possible for God not to find His lost sheep?

 

[John Mullally]

Do think that it is possible for God not to find His lost sheep?

The Calvinist perspective is that God chooses His own sheep, that is, He seeks them and finds them, and has chosen them from eternity past.

God indeed seeks the lost, but the objection is over the notion that God makes the choice for us. Instead, we must choose God over sin. In other words, if you were to ask God to give you an “Irresistible Grace” so that you would never sin again, ever—you won’t get it. Like Peter, you will fall, and get back up again, and you must choose God over sin, every day. It’s the struggle that everyone faces. Some people don’t want to let certain things go. Others fall back into the same sins over and over, but we must get back up again. We must choose. We have to make a choice. He won’t make it for us. Thankfully, because we have turned to God, He has given us a new nature that seeks to walk with Him and to do His will.

 

[bbbbbbb]

The Calvinist perspective is that God chooses His own sheep, that is, He seeks them and finds them, and has chosen them from eternity past.

God indeed seeks the lost, but the objection is over the notion that God makes the choice for us. Instead, we must choose God over sin. In other words, if you were to ask God to give you an “Irresistible Grace” so that you would never sin again, ever—you won’t get it. Like Peter, you will fall, and get back up again, and you must choose God over sin, every day. It’s the struggle that everyone faces. Some people don’t want to let certain things go. Others fall back into the same sins over and over, but we must get back up again. We must choose. We have to make a choice. He won’t make it for us. Thankfully, because we have turned to God, He has given us a new nature that seeks to walk with Him and to do His will.

That was not my question, but thank you for your perspective.

 

[zoidar]

Do think that it is possible for God not to find His lost sheep?

In the context of Matthew 18:12-14, God does not always find His lost sheep. That is what it says isn't it?

 

[Brightfame52]

I think it means what it literally says. If God finds that lost person there will be great joy. "If" means it doesn't always come to pass. That is one reason the joy is so great when the person is found. A question one might ask is in what way does God seek the lost.

. If God seeks He shall successfully find it and save it, do you doubt that ?

 

[zoidar]

. If God seeks He shall successfully find it and save it, do you doubt that ?

In the context of Matthew 18:12-14, God does not always find His lost sheep. That is what it says isn't it?

 

[Doug Brents]

In the context of Matthew 18:12-14, God does not always find His lost sheep. That is what it says isn't it?

It is indeed.

 

[bbbbbbb]

In the context of Matthew 18:12-14, God does not always find His lost sheep. That is what it says isn't it?

What it says is that if a man (not God) has a hundred sheep and one goes astray, then he (the shepherd) goes out and seeks it and if he finds it then their is great rejoicing. Then comes the connection to God - even so there is great rejoicing in heaven over one sinner who repents.

One can, by implication, see a direct correlation between the man and God and, if one chooses, can assert that God does not always find His lost sheep (i.e. straying sinner). That raises serious problems, however, not the least of which is that although God might be omniscient (although this is in serious doubt if God has no idea where the straying sinner went and needs to go out and look for him) God is not omnipotent in that He is incapable of keeping His own sheep, which is in direct contradiction to John 10.

 

[Doug Brents]

What it says is that if a man (not God) has a hundred sheep and one goes astray, then he (the shepherd) goes out and seeks it and if he finds it then their is great rejoicing. Then comes the connection to God - even so there is great rejoicing in heaven over one sinner who repents.

One can, by implication, see a direct correlation between the man and God and, if one chooses, can assert that God does not always find His lost sheep (i.e. straying sinner). That raises serious problems, however, not the least of which is that although God might be omniscient (although this is in serious doubt if God has no idea where the straying sinner went and needs to go out and look for him) God is not omnipotent in that He is incapable of keeping His own sheep, which is in direct contradiction to John 10.

Your conclusions are not entirely accurate. We know that God knows everything and everyone. But then He tells us that there will be some at Judgement the He "NEVER KNEW". We can understand from this that "know" does not mean "to have knowledge of", but does mean "to have relationship with". That being the case, we can also see that God may "know" where the lost sheep is, but still have to "seek" to bring that sheep back into His fold. One who was in the fold, but falls back into unrepentant sin and remains there will be lost (James 5:19-20). But God is seeking him out through those of us who remain in the Light, and through us, He seeks to draw them back into the fold. They may not come, but He doesn't stop seeking to draw them back. So, "IF He finds them" does mean that there are some He may not reach again.