crossover with wof

[GreatistheLord]

Without getting into a polarised debate, are there any crossover principles from Wof that are relevant ie

Confession of scripture
Speaking to the mountain instead of asking God, in healing etc
Faith being necessary in prayer

Or not?

 

[Bob Carabbio]

There's BIBLICAL WoF, and then there's "Popular/TOXIC" WoF.

Salvation is, essentially an excellent demonstration of the "Biblical WoF" process. We receive the WORD OF GOD generally starting with HOLY SPIRIT CONVICTION of SIN. And we surrender TO the Word, and cry out for forgiveness, and Lordship - and we're CHANGED instantly.

And even though NOTHING has changed visibly (except the expression on our faces, probably) We POSSESS the REALITY of Eternal life, and Right standing before God BY FAITH.

And we TELL everybody that we have a home in Heaven, and that we're Children of God, and that our SINS are forgiven - and state that truth as an ESTABLISHED REALITY -

Even though we're still here, and still need our jobs, and still are subject to all the ugly, frightening, and painful issues of life that were there before. We SAY in complete FAITH - that we're HIS People, and He's OUR God. That's the "Word of Faith".

"Popular/TOXIC WoF" teaches "Methods", and Formulas, and teaches folks to PRETEND that they "Believe" - when they DON'T really believe at all, and teaches them to PRETEND to have faith - that they don't really have at all.

But they're taught that if they "Profess" the "scriptural formulas" consistently enough, and be careful to NEVER Speak DOUBT - then eventually they'll get what they're PRETENDING to "have faith" for.

And, of course if they DON'T - it's all THEIR FAULT for not executing the "formulas" faithfully enough.

"Popular WoF" makes God out to be "REACTIVE" to us, instead of SOVEREIGN over us.

AND when physical issues are concerned, and folks PRETEND to have been healed by what they've been taught is "Faith" - then things can, and DO get deadly.

There's not much "Prayer for healing" in the Bible, but any number of cases when folks WHO KNEW that they had the authority to speak healing did so. if you don't KNOW you have the authority - you don't. Case closed.

You can SPEAK to the mountain - WHEN, and ONLY WHEN you KNOW that you have God's authority to do so. That's the "Control statement" in Mark 11:22-24 - "Heart belief" - Without "doubt".

It's always good "Mental hygene" to "Confess Scripture" - Faith comes BY HEARING and hearing by the WORD OF GOD.

Faith is NOT necessary in prayer. God hears EVERY prayer, and answers it according to HIS WILL.

The PRAYER OF FAITH, on the other hand, by definition KNOWS GOD'S WILL, and KNOWS the results of that prayer - regardless of any, and all visible evidence to the contrary. It doesn't have to be repeated, of course, since it's ALREADY BEEN ANSWERED!!!!

My illustration of that would be the 20+ year old fellow in my Bible study some years back. He'd just been sent home with only days left, to die of his Bone Cancer which had been non-responsive to what medical science in 1975 had to offer. He was colorless, cold, hairless, and weak as a kitten.

But his mother had a "Word from God", and she proclaimed that He WOULD NOT DIE, and would be healed. She already possessed the ESTABLISHED REALITY (the "Substance and the evidence") of his recovery, and proclaimed it - the "Word of Faith".

The rest of us in the study weren't so sure of any of that, of course, but we DID join her in thanking God for His provision.

And after several weeks he was still alive, had color, and his hair was growing back. And we began to believe that God MIGHT just do it according to His WORD to the fellow's mother. About 10 months later he was pronounced "Cancer free", and 30 years later he was a Deacon in the AoG church in St Mary's OH.

SO THERE IS a legitimate, and Biblically sound "Word of Faith" in the CHurch. The problem is, however, that Probably 90% of what the Visible Church CALLS "Faith" is really nothing more than "Mental ascent", Hope, or Presumption.

 

[hopeinGod]

The WOF movement is proof itself that whatever unbalanced and error-ridden doctrines get planted in the hearts of believers, and are watered regularly, they will harvest that same belief system ten, twenty and a hundred fold. In contrast, if you scatter seeds of sound doctrine, water them faithfully, they will reap soundness, stability, and a strong foundation in the faith.

 

[Tigger45]

As a born again spirit filled Christian who has resently been visiting a WOF congregation which as of yet hasn't blurred the line of biblic WOF over to metaphysics, I would sincerely appreciate your perspective of biblical Charismatic, biblical WOF, and biblical Pentecostals. I used the word biblical because I'm not interested in the non-biblical teachings but within a broader bliblical concept, what then would be the differences between these three groups. I'm just trying to get a clear understanding for myself and maybe others might want to know also. I'm hoping this post is within the context of the OP. If not I will repost as a new thread.

There's BIBLICAL WoF, and then there's "Popular/TOXIC" WoF.

Salvation is, essentially an excellent demonstration of the "Biblical WoF" process. We receive the WORD OF GOD generally starting with HOLY SPIRIT CONVICTION of SIN. And we surrender TO the Word, and cry out for forgiveness, and Lordship - and we're CHANGED instantly.

And even though NOTHING has changed visibly (except the expression on our faces, probably) We POSSESS the REALITY of Eternal life, and Right standing before God BY FAITH.

And we TELL everybody that we have a home in Heaven, and that we're Children of God, and that our SINS are forgiven - and state that truth as an ESTABLISHED REALITY -

Even though we're still here, and still need our jobs, and still are subject to all the ugly, frightening, and painful issues of life that were there before. We SAY in complete FAITH - that we're HIS People, and He's OUR God. That's the "Word of Faith".

"Popular/TOXIC WoF" teaches "Methods", and Formulas, and teaches folks to PRETEND that they "Believe" - when they DON'T really believe at all, and teaches them to PRETEND to have faith - that they don't really have at all.

But they're taught that if they "Profess" the "scriptural formulas" consistently enough, and be careful to NEVER Speak DOUBT - then eventually they'll get what they're PRETENDING to "have faith" for.

And, of course if they DON'T - it's all THEIR FAULT for not executing the "formulas" faithfully enough.

"Popular WoF" makes God out to be "REACTIVE" to us, instead of SOVEREIGN over us.

AND when physical issues are concerned, and folks PRETEND to have been healed by what they've been taught is "Faith" - then things can, and DO get deadly.

There's not much "Prayer for healing" in the Bible, but any number of cases when folks WHO KNEW that they had the authority to speak healing did so. if you don't KNOW you have the authority - you don't. Case closed.

You can SPEAK to the mountain - WHEN, and ONLY WHEN you KNOW that you have God's authority to do so. That's the "Control statement" in Mark 11:22-24 - "Heart belief" - Without "doubt".

It's always good "Mental hygene" to "Confess Scripture" - Faith comes BY HEARING and hearing by the WORD OF GOD.

Faith is NOT necessary in prayer. God hears EVERY prayer, and answers it according to HIS WILL.

The PRAYER OF FAITH, on the other hand, by definition KNOWS GOD'S WILL, and KNOWS the results of that prayer - regardless of any, and all visible evidence to the contrary. It doesn't have to be repeated, of course, since it's ALREADY BEEN ANSWERED!!!!

My illustration of that would be the 20+ year old fellow in my Bible study some years back. He'd just been sent home with only days left, to die of his Bone Cancer which had been non-responsive to what medical science in 1975 had to offer. He was colorless, cold, hairless, and weak as a kitten.

But his mother had a "Word from God", and she proclaimed that He WOULD NOT DIE, and would be healed. She already possessed the ESTABLISHED REALITY (the "Substance and the evidence") of his recovery, and proclaimed it - the "Word of Faith".

The rest of us in the study weren't so sure of any of that, of course, but we DID join her in thanking God for His provision.

And after several weeks he was still alive, had color, and his hair was growing back. And we began to believe that God MIGHT just do it according to His WORD to the fellow's mother. About 10 months later he was pronounced "Cancer free", and 30 years later he was a Deacon in the AoG church in St Mary's OH.

SO THERE IS a legitimate, and Biblically sound "Word of Faith" in the CHurch. The problem is, however, that Probably 90% of what the Visible Church CALLS "Faith" is really nothing more than "Mental ascent", Hope, or Presumption.

 

[Bob Carabbio]

"As a born again spirit filled Christian who has resently been visiting a WOF congregation which as of yet hasn't blurred the line of biblic WOF over to metaphysics, I would sincerely appreciate your perspective of biblical Charismatic, biblical WOF, and biblical Pentecostals."

Disclaimer: My "Perspective" is, in fact MY PERSPECTIVE as a 70 year old free-range Charismatic, theologically eclectic (but Calvinist slanted - Hey!! I started out Baptist back in '62), and non-denominational, but a member and in the leadership Group of an Assembly of God Church in Desoto, TX. I say what I mean to say, and sign my name to it.

You don't really have to worry all that much about "OP context" since on Forums, threads go where they want, and moderators move 'em as they see fit.

Let me preface everything by stating that I see the "Visible Church" (like good 'ol First Baptist down on the corner) as a Work in progress.

My "Historical view" is that almost immediately after the Apostolic period, the "Visible Church" started to descend into error, and beauracracy, finally reaching a "low point" in the Middle ages when the "Orthodox Church" was essentially LOST on Superstition, Political Corruption, and Gross ignorance.

And then God began the rebuilding process with the "Reformation", and over the last 600 years has been RE-Building the Visible church, line upon Line, and precept upon precept, adding truths which were ALWAYS there, but long forgotten. "The Just shall live by FAITH" wasn't a "NEW REVELATION" - but it WAS one that hadn't been realized - until Luther "Saw it" in the Spirit, and got the ball rolling.

I'll use the term "Full Gospel" to cover your three Groups - "Full Gospel" in the sense that the Orthodox Church up until the late 19th century was essentially "Cessationist" in nature, and taught that all the "Neat Stuff" in the Bible - miracles, healings, tongues, etc. had been withdrawn, generally predicated on the "Completion of the Biblical Canon" which supposedly rendered them "Obsolete". "Full Gospel" simply means that WE believe that the Gifts are AS accessible TODAY as they were in 40 A.D.

The the mid-late 19th century, the Lord RE-Introduced the concept of a "Filling with the Holy Spirit" as an "Event" subsequent to salvation (which IS the point at which a person is "Infilled" by the Spirit, and made alive Spiritually).

And it was noted Biblically that the "Manifestation of tongues" was recorded as accompanying the the people being "Filled with the spirit" in several instances. and shortly after that tongues were experienced in a Bible School in Topeka, KS in 1900. shortly after that around 1906 William Seymore Pastored a huge revival at Azuza Street in L.A. which spawned many of the Pentecostal denominations today, the LARGEST 2 being the Assemblies of God (mostly white), and the Church of God in Christ (mostly Black). Their "Doctrines" are generally O.K., but like any denominational groups, there's "Truth" and there's "Error".

The Pentecostals, however, began to "Atrophy" into formalism by the 1950s, and a NEW Revival (The Charismatic Outpouring) rolled through in 1966 which effected primarily the "Liberal", Historic denominations and the Catholics - Thousands of whom were saved and Filled with the Holy Spirit, and for a brief time in the '70s, we were "just Christians" together - experiencing the presence of the Holy Spirit and largely ignoring our "Denominational differences" and "Defining doctrines" which, at the time, seemed, and WERE - simply unimportant.

In the late '70s the revival ended, and folks that were involved in it tended to go back into their old churches, but MANY migrated to the Pentecostal denominations, which really had little to do with the Charismatic movement, and opposed it along with many other in the "Orthodox" churches. The Charismatics DIDN'T form denominational groups for the most part - "Calvary Chapel" being one of the larger ones.

SO Today there's not really that much difference between "Charismatics", and Mainline Pentecostals.

WoF is a development from E.W. Kenyon in the early 20 century, and popularized by Kenneth Hagan Sr. WHo was Assembly of God in the beginning. HE wasn't "Prosperity" oriented, and definitly NOT Meta-physical. He believed (as I do) that FAITH comes through "Hearing the Word" - in the sense that God will make His word "REAL" to you (in the way that He made "The just will live by faith" REAL to Luther), and when HE DOES, then you can ACCURATELY proclaim the Word/Promise/Provision - as being REAL - even though it's not "there yet".

"Popular WoF teachers" started to "Adjust that concept" to where you're supposed to "CLAIM" what you read in the Bible as "YOURS" intellectually without any "Word from God to YOU" about it. and that's where we get into the methodology of "Name it and claim it" prosperity teaching that essentially argues the "Gain IS Godliness" in spite of the Bible saying otherwise.

We're to SEEK FIRST the "Kingdom of God, and HIS Righteousness" - and THEN out of that relational position with God, "All these things" will be added.

I'm "Calvinist leaning", in the sense that I am CONVINCED that all things start with GOD who leads and inspires, burdens us with ministries, and enables us to have Faith, and Chastises/Scourges/corrects us when we get "off track".

I'm dying of Coronary artery disease (13 heart attacks, two open hearts, and 16 stents since 1992), and I KNOW that God heals (I've seen Him DO IT). But I DON'T KNOW that God intends to heal ME - so I have nothing to base a claim of healing on. And in a REAL way, that doesn't matter. I have peace in Him about my status, and complete confidence that He'll BE with me whatever the future holds. And If I'm NEVER healed physically until death, God still heals, and blesses, and makes prosperous, and gives the Power to "carry on".

The MAJOR ISSUE in the "Visible church", I think, is that the majority of folks have never read the Bible, don't know what's IN it, and have no Biblical foundation to "JUDGE" truth and error when it comes at 'em. Folks read books ABOUT the Word, but don't read the Word itself. That SHOULD be the FIRST thing.

Simple as that.

 

[Tigger45]

I had a feeling you could answer me in such a way as for me to understand it without burying me in too much info

 

[Simon Peter]

Two really good posts Bob


peace,
Simon

 

[hopeinGod]

It was good to read your chronologically written post, Bob. I've known those things for years but never listed them as you did. I own a dictionary of nondenominational/Charismatic words and phrases that were created/developed over the last few decades.

If I had the book in hand, I'd list a bunch of them to show how they continue even today to define the scattered parts of that movement and its diminishing impact. Even the phrase "toxic faith" is defined. Those that come to mind that may also be included are feeling led, latter rain, manifest presence, plead the blood, revelation knowledge, impartation, slain in the spirit, and word of knowledge.

The Charismatic life truly has a language of its own, not often heard in denominational settings.

 

[GreatistheLord]

I am asking about Wof principles, not about extreme caricatures of it.

Does your church, nominally non-wof, still practise wof teachings ?

i.e. positive confession, speaking to the mountain, healing always being God's will and never sent by the devil, etc

 

[Optimax]

"As a born again spirit filled Christian who has resently been visiting a WOF congregation which as of yet hasn't blurred the line of biblic WOF over to metaphysics, I would sincerely appreciate your perspective of biblical Charismatic, biblical WOF, and biblical Pentecostals."

Disclaimer: My "Perspective" is, in fact MY PERSPECTIVE as a 70 year old free-range Charismatic, theologically eclectic (but Calvinist slanted - Hey!! I started out Baptist back in '62), and non-denominational, but a member and in the leadership Group of an Assembly of God Church in Desoto, TX. I say what I mean to say, and sign my name to it.

You don't really have to worry all that much about "OP context" since on Forums, threads go where they want, and moderators move 'em as they see fit.

Let me preface everything by stating that I see the "Visible Church" (like good 'ol First Baptist down on the corner) as a Work in progress.

My "Historical view" is that almost immediately after the Apostolic period, the "Visible Church" started to descend into error, and beauracracy, finally reaching a "low point" in the Middle ages when the "Orthodox Church" was essentially LOST on Superstition, Political Corruption, and Gross ignorance.

And then God began the rebuilding process with the "Reformation", and over the last 600 years has been RE-Building the Visible church, line upon Line, and precept upon precept, adding truths which were ALWAYS there, but long forgotten. "The Just shall live by FAITH" wasn't a "NEW REVELATION" - but it WAS one that hadn't been realized - until Luther "Saw it" in the Spirit, and got the ball rolling.

I'll use the term "Full Gospel" to cover your three Groups - "Full Gospel" in the sense that the Orthodox Church up until the late 19th century was essentially "Cessationist" in nature, and taught that all the "Neat Stuff" in the Bible - miracles, healings, tongues, etc. had been withdrawn, generally predicated on the "Completion of the Biblical Canon" which supposedly rendered them "Obsolete". "Full Gospel" simply means that WE believe that the Gifts are AS accessible TODAY as they were in 40 A.D.

The the mid-late 19th century, the Lord RE-Introduced the concept of a "Filling with the Holy Spirit" as an "Event" subsequent to salvation (which IS the point at which a person is "Infilled" by the Spirit, and made alive Spiritually).

And it was noted Biblically that the "Manifestation of tongues" was recorded as accompanying the the people being "Filled with the spirit" in several instances. and shortly after that tongues were experienced in a Bible School in Topeka, KS in 1900. shortly after that around 1906 William Seymore Pastored a huge revival at Azuza Street in L.A. which spawned many of the Pentecostal denominations today, the LARGEST 2 being the Assemblies of God (mostly white), and the Church of God in Christ (mostly Black). Their "Doctrines" are generally O.K., but like any denominational groups, there's "Truth" and there's "Error".

The Pentecostals, however, began to "Atrophy" into formalism by the 1950s, and a NEW Revival (The Charismatic Outpouring) rolled through in 1966 which effected primarily the "Liberal", Historic denominations and the Catholics - Thousands of whom were saved and Filled with the Holy Spirit, and for a brief time in the '70s, we were "just Christians" together - experiencing the presence of the Holy Spirit and largely ignoring our "Denominational differences" and "Defining doctrines" which, at the time, seemed, and WERE - simply unimportant.

In the late '70s the revival ended, and folks that were involved in it tended to go back into their old churches, but MANY migrated to the Pentecostal denominations, which really had little to do with the Charismatic movement, and opposed it along with many other in the "Orthodox" churches. The Charismatics DIDN'T form denominational groups for the most part - "Calvary Chapel" being one of the larger ones.

SO Today there's not really that much difference between "Charismatics", and Mainline Pentecostals.

WoF is a development from E.W. Kenyon in the early 20 century, and popularized by Kenneth Hagan Sr. WHo was Assembly of God in the beginning. HE wasn't "Prosperity" oriented, and definitly NOT Meta-physical. He believed (as I do) that FAITH comes through "Hearing the Word" - in the sense that God will make His word "REAL" to you (in the way that He made "The just will live by faith" REAL to Luther), and when HE DOES, then you can ACCURATELY proclaim the Word/Promise/Provision - as being REAL - even though it's not "there yet".

"Popular WoF teachers" started to "Adjust that concept" to where you're supposed to "CLAIM" what you read in the Bible as "YOURS" intellectually without any "Word from God to YOU" about it. and that's where we get into the methodology of "Name it and claim it" prosperity teaching that essentially argues the "Gain IS Godliness" in spite of the Bible saying otherwise.

We're to SEEK FIRST the "Kingdom of God, and HIS Righteousness" - and THEN out of that relational position with God, "All these things" will be added.

I'm "Calvinist leaning", in the sense that I am CONVINCED that all things start with GOD who leads and inspires, burdens us with ministries, and enables us to have Faith, and Chastises/Scourges/corrects us when we get "off track".

I'm dying of Coronary artery disease (13 heart attacks, two open hearts, and 16 stents since 1992), and I KNOW that God heals (I've seen Him DO IT). But I DON'T KNOW that God intends to heal ME - so I have nothing to base a claim of healing on. And in a REAL way, that doesn't matter. I have peace in Him about my status, and complete confidence that He'll BE with me whatever the future holds. And If I'm NEVER healed physically until death, God still heals, and blesses, and makes prosperous, and gives the Power to "carry on".

The MAJOR ISSUE in the "Visible church", I think, is that the majority of folks have never read the Bible, don't know what's IN it, and have no Biblical foundation to "JUDGE" truth and error when it comes at 'em. Folks read books ABOUT the Word, but don't read the Word itself. That SHOULD be the FIRST thing.

Simple as that.

Impressive Post!

Luke 5:12-13

12 While Jesus was in one of the towns, a man came along who was covered with leprosy. When he saw Jesus, he fell with his face to the ground and begged him, "Lord, if you are willing, you can make me clean."

13 Jesus reached out his hand and touched the man. "I am willing," he said. "Be clean!" And immediately the leprosy left him.
NIV

 

[lismore]

I am asking about Wof principles, not about extreme caricatures of it.

Hello

Maybe if you posted a thread in the WOF sub-forum, there are some reasonable people there from whom you would get a reasonable answer.

 

[Simon Peter]

I am asking about Wof principles, not about extreme caricatures of it.

Does your church, nominally non-wof, still practise wof teachings ?

i.e. positive confession, speaking to the mountain, healing always being God's will and never sent by the devil, etc

Isn't this a bit like asking:

Does your church, nominally Protestant, still practise Catholic teachings?

Well they are both Christian, and they both use the same scriptures, and they both believe Mary was the virgin mother of Christ, etc...


But where are you going with this, or where is it you want to go with this? What's the issue behind the questions?


peace,
Simon

 

[SavedByGrace3]

This is the Charismatic Non-WOF forum.

If you are reading this thread you have to remember that you are reading the opinions of people whose responses are leaning heavily against Wof. By definition, they are against WoF.

Also know that _by rule_ WoF cannot respond or defend what they believe in this forum.

If you want to get the WOF side of the issues, feel free to go to the Word of Faith forum.

Thanks

 

[GreatistheLord]

I really expect to see some crossover, because despite the rhetoric and hype, there should be at least some, and wondered how much more was in common. purely in the spirit of seeing what unites the 2 groups in practise.

 

[Faulty]

By definition, they are against WoF.

So, by definition, WoF is against non-WoF?

 

[Faulty]

I am asking about Wof principles, not about extreme caricatures of it.

Does your church, nominally non-wof, still practise wof teachings ?

i.e. positive confession, speaking to the mountain, healing always being God's will and never sent by the devil, etc

Does my church teach these three things? No, no, and no.

It never gets any sermon time, except in the warnings where it belongs.

 

[Bob Carabbio]

"12 While Jesus was in one of the towns, a man came along who was covered with leprosy. When he saw Jesus, he fell with his face to the ground and begged him, "Lord, if you are willing, you can make me clean."

13 Jesus reached out his hand and touched the man. "I am willing," he said. "Be clean!" And immediately the leprosy left him."

But the simple fact is that just because Jesus healed THAT man, doesn't have anything to do with whether or not He'll heal ME - NOW.

Simple as that.

 

[now faith]

"12 While Jesus was in one of the towns, a man came along who was covered with leprosy. When he saw Jesus, he fell with his face to the ground and begged him, "Lord, if you are willing, you can make me clean."

13 Jesus reached out his hand and touched the man. "I am willing," he said. "Be clean!" And immediately the leprosy left him."

But the simple fact is that just because Jesus healed THAT man, doesn't have anything to do with whether or not He'll heal ME - NOW.

Simple as that.

Is God a respecter of persons? Has he changed? What did Christ say about asking God for anything? What are the conditions Christ taught on prayer?

 

[now faith]

Without getting into a polarised debate, are there any crossover principles from Wof that are relevant ie

Confession of scripture
Speaking to the mountain instead of asking God, in healing etc
Faith being necessary in prayer

Or not?

Confession of scripture, yes
Speaking to the mountain, by the authority given on the cross, always in Jesus name, always putting Jesus first and all things for his glory.
Faith being necessary,,, always without faith it is impossible to please God

 

[MikeBigg]

I loved Bob's mini-history of the church. Very interesting reading.

I'm of charismatic heritage - been in a charismatic church for 30 years and am happy there.

I have found in regards to healing, WoF type commanding prayers are more effective than the usual petitioning prayers. No one seems to be bothered about it being WoF.

However, I believe that God always wants to heal, which I believe is a WoF principle - I think it is what I read in the Bible so is a Biblical principle - I do run into trouble when expressing this opinion with the more Bible basher type charismatics. I've yet to hear reasons from them that cause me to re-think. (That isn't an invitation to give me a charismatic Bible-bashing!)

Interestingly, the guys I know within my stream of churches who do regularly see people healed all use commanding prayers. I think that has probably crossed over.

Regards,

Mike