Churches Dying

FireDragon76

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That's true too. But I think we both know that there is something perceived to be at stake by those who are more staunchly conservative in their Christian identity, and that is the misconceived notion that the U.S. has been, is and should be made to remain, a "Christian nation."

And as you already know, the problem with this notion is that it is a delusive one since the U.S. was only moderately influenced politically by Christians rather than actually being made and defined by them as a constitutionally Christian entity.

Having studied Christian nationalism to some degree, it seems to be a myth that started during the late Second Great Awakening as a way to explain the origins of the United States, since there's no particular religious mandate in the Bible to overthrow a king just because you don't like their tax policies (quite the opposite). The initial Founders weren't motivated by religious ideals at all, and states that were founded upon religious idealism, like Massachusetts, eventually had to drop their religious establishment and anti-Catholic and anti-Semitic laws to be in line with national norms.
 
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FireDragon76

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... to add to this thought you've cited, I'm afraid that the U.S. passed the point of Church renewal of any form. I think it's all going to continue to decline no matter what flavor of church or church policy is adopted.

Perhaps so. Millenials seem like the last generation that had anything resembling ties to church to any significant degree. Gen Z is thoroughly unchurched, with very small exceptions. It doesn't even register on their radar for the most part as a live option.

It's scary to see during my lifetime in some ways,. But the MAGA response is one that Jesus wouldn't countenance.
 
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2PhiloVoid

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Perhaps so. Millenials seem like the last generation that had anything resembling ties to church to any significant degree. Gen Z is thoroughly unchurched, with very small exceptions. It doesn't even register on their radar for the most part as a live option.

It's scary to see during my lifetime in some ways,. But the MAGA response is one that Jesus wouldn't countenance.

Frankly speaking, I didn't realize until about 2015 there were so many Americans who identify as Christian but who also tote guns around for purposes other than old fashioned hunting ... with a theology accommodating those guns to boot.

Still, with the advent of Youtube atheism, I'm also concerned for Millennials and Gen Z since I don't think their spiritual aloofness hinges precisely or only upon LGBTQ issues.
 
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bèlla

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The practice is an environmental one mostly, and a learned behavior. And let's face it: the flesh loves to experiment with sin, especially sexual sin. Sexuality was designed by the Creator to be between male and female.

You're not going to get to the root of that in a place like this. Many people like to save face and keep their skeletons hidden. You have to get in the company of people willing to be honest and unconcerned with others opinions. They aren't seeking validation. They like what they like unapologetically.

I've been around people like that for many years and I'm largely the same with the Lord in mind so I'll share what I know. My comments include homosexuality and related practices. Most of the people I knew had a negative experience in their youth or early encounters with one another or someone older. I knew all of their 'interests' and they admitted the origins and sometimes I asked. When I encountered people with different tastes I asked them why and wanted to understand.

Sexuality isn't fixed and by that I mean you can pick up things and put them down. This is a murky subject in the church. They're not getting real like that. But unsaved people will. Parameters help you stay within the line. But when you're exposed to things beyond those boundaries it will move if you don't hold it in check and that begins in your head.

The moment you tell yourself it's okay you'll go further and that's true for many things. Oftentimes they find others like themselves or enter an environment where differences are celebrated and curiosity is cool. They're unlikely to hear don't do it. It isn't just same sex relations you get the whole umbrella because that's the community.

I've known people who've laid it down when they came to faith because of their convictions. Others stopped impure practices because they knew they were wrong. That's what it means to work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. You can't rely on people to keep you on track. They may enable you. You need to know where you stand with God.

I've seen marriages destroyed, homes wrecked, children exposed to inappropriate stuff, financial ruin through alternative relating, a lot of pain and unnecessary problems. When people champion alternative relationships they don't tell you the whole story. How many relationships or sexual partners they've had. They don't tell you about the parties or events. They want you to think they live like you. They downplay the sex and hedonism and all the other stuff.

We used to live in boys town when I was a teenager. I've seen it all. That was back when the bathhouses were popular. It was off the rails as were the parades. Halloween was a spectacle. People wear masks all the time. They blend in with their environment but when they're elsewhere the real them comes out.

There's a lot of down low in the church. You're not sitting around Pollyanna's. They're looking at OF, corn and a lot worse or practicing it. Some used to live like that and they stopped. Some haven't. That's why you have to ask hard questions when you're trying to find a spouse or forging close connections. You need to know who you're dealing with and their history.

I want the truth and that allows me to make an informed decision. I'm happy when I see people delivered from strongholds. I'm happy when I see them trying to change. But if you've accepted it and compromised that's a problem. I laid those connections down. I want God honoring relationships. Bad company corrupts good morals. You may not mimic their lifestyle but you don't go unscathed. I've seen it up close.

The ugly truth is this. There's things we don't want to relinquish. We all have them. Agreeing with God is where it starts and it has to be ratified in your relationships. You don't need people encouraging you to do things you shouldn't. You need them to say the hard things in love.

I had a friend who was having an affair. She had gotten to the point where she'd purchased a Chromebook to speak with him in secret while at work. She was camming at work. She had the office to herself most of the time. This was during my homecoming. The Lord was drawing me close.

One day I asked a question. What will happen if you get caught? What will your husband do? This wasn't her first rodeo she'd been caught before and they patched things up. She said he'd divorce her and take their son. I was shocked she was willing to risk that on a fling.

I told her she was risking everything for nothing. An empty past time that won't last that long. Is it worth it? I had a bad feeling she was nearing the point of exposure and advised her to stop and she listened. I told her to tell him what she needed and craved and let him provide it. Give him a chance and I'd help.

We got on the phone and I spoke to her husband and broached the subject. We laughed a lot and I smoothed the way for her to share and it changed their marriage. She never strayed again.

That's a friend and it wasn't the first time I've done it. That's love. Love isn't telling people what they want to hear or turning a blind eye. We should be bettered through our connections.

~bella
 
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FireDragon76

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Frankly speaking, I didn't realize until about 2015 there were so many Americans who identify as Christian but who also tote guns around for purposes other than old fashioned hunting ... with a theology accommodating those guns to boot.

Still, with the advent of Youtube atheism, I'm also concerned for Millennials and Gen Z since I don't think their spiritual aloofness hinges precisely or only upon LGBTQ issues.

Youtube atheism has come and gone as a driving force of the deconstructing, especially as there are voices now like John Vervaeke, Andrew Huberman, and others, that are making a good case, on non-apologetic grounds, for a religious orientation of some kind. However, that doesn't mean Gen Z is going to cotton to anti-LGBT politics and reactionary values of conservative Evangelicals. Metamodernism will still retain many tendencies of postmodernism and modernism, including a cynicism towards received traditions and exclusionary hermeneutics.
 
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FireDragon76

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Attraction is just another word for sinful lust.

Something tells me you wouldn't be talking this way if the subject were discussing heterosexual attraction.
 
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Joseph G

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That's a friend and it wasn't the first time I've done it. That's love. Love isn't telling people what they want to hear or turning a blind eye. We should be bettered through our connections.

~bella
Proverbs 27:6 NKJV

"Faithful are the wounds of a friend, But the kisses of an enemy are deceitful."
 
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FireDragon76

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Proverbs 27:6 NKJV

"Faithful are the wounds of a friend, But the kisses of an enemy are deceitful."

If friends don't care about the hurt they cause, they aren't friends.
 
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bèlla

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Attraction is just another word for sinful lust.

It's splitting hairs. Whether its homosexual or otherwise. Attraction implies a desire exists or something appeals. The goal is seeing it all from God's perspective. Whether you act or not.

We don't have to commit adultery to know its wrong. And if we're honest with ourselves we know where entertaining those thoughts may lead. We're dangling a carrot and expecting not to be tempted. That's unrealistic.

~bella
 
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Joseph G

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Something tells me you wouldn't be talking this way if the subject were discussing heterosexual attraction.
Wrong. I live by the following motto. I fail sometimes, but I repent rather than excuse it and make it a habit:

Job 31:1-4 NIV

“I made a covenant with my eyes
not to look lustfully at a young woman.
For what is our lot from God above,
our heritage from the Almighty on high?
Is it not ruin for the wicked,
disaster for those who do wrong?
Does he not see my ways
and count my every step?"
 
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Joseph G

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It's splitting hairs. Whether its homosexual or otherwise. Attraction implies a desire exists or something appeals. The goal is seeing it all from God's perspective. Whether you act or not.

We don't have to commit adultery to know its wrong. And if we're honest with ourselves we know where entertaining those thoughts may lead. We're dangling a carrot and expecting not to be tempted. That's unrealistic.

~bella
I'm not talking about temptation, but about lingering over it until one is sexually objectifying the person.
 
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dzheremi

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As I feel like I'm constantly saying with regard to LGBT everything on this website, I really don't understand why Evangelicals (or anybody else, for that matter) would considered the matter settled at simply declaring something (or someone...) a sin. "Don't be gay" is not even the top 1,000th message I would want to leave anyone with if they were wondering about Christianity, precisely because it's so specific as to be almost useless at saying much about the wider human condition, which Christianity of course has a lot of say about that I personally think makes it very compelling (though I recognize that's me, and not everyone's going to agree that it is compelling to begin with; I would say it's more compelling once you get away from simple binary value judgments like "don't be gay", though).

To put it another way, if being gay were the be all and end all of what Christians had to deal with in struggling against the passions, then the faith would be a cakewalk for 90-whatever percent of us who are already not gay, and so do not struggle with that to begin with. So what does it say that it is not actually that easy? Why, for instance, does our father and master St. Paul excoriate himself in his epistle to the Romans, saying "O wretched man that I am!", "Who will deliver me from this body of death?", and so on? Or what does it tell us that the celebrant of every Orthodox liturgy declares himself the chief of sinners and relies upon the mercy of the same God that we all likewise rely upon? Though these things do not directly address homosexuality in particular, in them I can't help but see reasons and avenues for compassion and sympathy with those that struggle in every way, whether it is a way that we also struggle in or not. There is so much more to say and do and so much a wider lens through which to live out our faith precisely when we stop allowing it (and ourselves) to be driven by whatever the hot-button political or sociocultural issues of the day are wherever we happen to live. 500 years ago, the question was not any of this LGBT stuff, and 500 years from now it won't be that anymore.

I find that those who are most unsettled by the way that things are going are those who foresee it getting worse and worse for them the more 'victories' happen for those who want increased secularization, increased LGBTification of existence, and so on. I'm not shy that I'm not a fan of those things, but I can also sincerely say that I do not fear for the future precisely because I know that whatever is coming next will require different responses than the ones that the majority of Christians in the west seem to be peddling concerning today's issues (because, again, they won't be tomorrow's; we can consider the LGBT 'battleground' already a fait accompli, no matter how many bills about it may be passed in conservative political strongholds), and I believe it is long past time to start seeing some of those, because it is obvious already that the present iteration of Christianity in the west is beyond done for. So I want to see what will come next when the last generations who are living in its corpse (including my own...) are forced to move on from what has given them comfort lo these past however many decades (it can't be so many; the "moral majority", for instance, only started in the 1970s). I may not be around to see it, but I have hope when looking at the younger generations in my own Church that when we need to adapt to new challenges, we can and do. (NB, e.g., that the first 'official'/church-wide English translation of the Liturgy of St. Basil was only issued in the early 1990s...I have it somewhere in my collection of Coptic Orthodox books, and while its newness and awkwardness is rather charming from a native English-speaker's perspective, I am more pleased about what it says simply by existing. :) )
 
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Joseph G

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If friends don't care about the hurt they cause, they aren't friends.
I've been rebuked by friends before. Yes, it hurt. But instead of stewing on it and becoming bitter, I prayed about it and came to agree with them. I thank God they had the guts to do so, it enabled me to repent and avoid even further damage to myself and others. THAT is a true friend.
 
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Joseph G

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Not necessarily. Just because you attracted to someone doesn’t mean you are actively lusting over them.
If you mean appreciating their beauty, I agree. I should have been more clear. Attraction turns to lust when one starts lingering and fantasizing what they would like to see or do with them sexually. That we can control.
 
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2PhiloVoid

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Youtube atheism has come and gone as a driving force of the deconstructing, especially as there are voices now like John Vervaeke, Andrew Huberman, and others, that are making a good case, on non-apologetic grounds, for a religious orientation of some kind. However, that doesn't mean Gen Z is going to cotton to anti-LGBT politics and reactionary values of conservative Evangelicals. Metamodernism will still retain many tendencies of postmodernism and modernism, including a cynicism towards received traditions and exclusionary hermeneutics.

I don't know that YouTube atheism has both come and gone. I think they're still here, even if they've dispersed themselves over more channels with less viewers. Take Derek of Mythvision as but one example. He's still rolling along and providing a network of skeptical/atheist scholars, however one-sided his channel may purposely be. He has 226k subscribers to Vervaeke's still respectable 109k subscribers (as but one single comparison).

As for Andrew Huberman, while he's interesting at times and he has a following in the millions, there's some question out there about his professional integrity.
 
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Kokavkrystallos

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Personally, I'd concentrate on helping straight folks who make up the majority of the population clean up their corporately influenced sexual corruptions way before attempting to address anything else we think may reside on the Deviance List.

In other words, let's primarily address the gargantuan social and psychological spillage of general hedonism left behind from what we might call the "Hefnerian Legacy," and then worry about other things ... and in the process actually love other human beings as human beings and see their significance regardless of their common sins.

I do, and those were my "pet sins" without me even realizing what I was doing. Like the so called "affirming churches" I found Biblical excuses for both adultery and fornication, using pretty much the same argument about "It's only love," using King David as an example of adultery that appeared to be ultimately blessed because Bathsheba after all was the mother of Solomon, AND in the lineage of Jesus Christ. (Choosing to ignore the results of that sin: the child died, the sword did not depart from Davids house, Tamar raped by Amnon, Absalom kills Amnon, Absalom was killed, .... and David forbidden to build the temple. Even Solomon went astray with pagan wives and paganism.)
I also used Hosea 1:2 "And the Lord said to Hosea, Go, take unto thee a wife of whoredoms and children of whoredoms" (Just that portion) to justify sin, without bothering with the context that comes in the rest of verse 2 and the verses after.

I took "vows" between me and 2 or 3 girls that we were "married in our hearts before God" (even though one was married to another guy!), and in each case those relationships ended badly. Even my marriage began in adultery and her divorcing her husband to marry me, and that whole family was gone after 10 years. The wages of sin in this life is destruction and in the end is death!

I now chose either to be celibate or to marry only if the woman is a solid born again believer - not on the fence, not carnal, no pet sins. None of this "well we can work around those sins" because rather than her quitting, more likely it's me starting whatever: smoking, drinking, cussing. And we are called to cut those things off, all of which I once did.

So I agree that it is the general hedonism that is dragging America and the West down, and homosexuality is just one part of a larger whole. I don't really single it out - I address it from scripture when it comes up. There was a thread on here awhile back where someone was living in sin with their girlfriend. I addressed that from the Biblical teachings on fornication and marriage.

I don't normally watch TV and do not own one but occasionally see one, and more and more it seems women's body parts are more and more exposed, the clothing getting less and less, on regular TV. Swearing too. All of this combined is error and sin against a Holy God, and with sex sins it's also against ones own body, as we are the temple of the Holy Spirit, and are called not to defile the temple. Amen.

There is no "changing times" excuse. Sure, there might be less agriculture and more city work, factory work, and industry, but sexual sin and drunkenness happens down on the farm too. There's homosexuals in small towns of 500 people as well as big cities of millions. Ultimately it is that seed of sin passed down through Adam that causes people to sin, and being in the last days, sin becomes more rampant and out in the open, hence as Isaiah wrote, "They declare their sin as Sodom" who were proud, but proud of their hedonism, and their alleged "freedom" and liberality, which ultimate brought fiery destruction upon them from God. He cast those flaming globules of sulfur and brimstone upon those cities, and Scripture says He will judge all who live ungodly likewise.

May anyone who is under delusions about any of these things repent, and turn to Jesus with a full heart in obedience to His Word.
 
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2PhiloVoid

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I do, and those were my "pet sins" without me even realizing what I was doing. Like the so called "affirming churches" I found Biblical excuses for both adultery and fornication, using pretty much the same argument about "It's only love," using King David as an example of adultery that appeared to be ultimately blessed because Bathsheba after all was the mother of Solomon, AND in the lineage of Jesus Christ. (Choosing to ignore the results of that sin: the child died, the sword did not depart from Davids house, Tamar raped by Amnon, Absalom kills Amnon, Absalom was killed, .... and David forbidden to build the temple. Even Solomon went astray with pagan wives and paganism.)
I also used Hosea 1:2 "And the Lord said to Hosea, Go, take unto thee a wife of whoredoms and children of whoredoms" (Just that portion) to justify sin, without bothering with the context that comes in the rest of verse 2 and the verses after.

I took "vows" between me and 2 or 3 girls that we were "married in our hearts before God" (even though one was married to another guy!), and in each case those relationships ended badly. Even my marriage began in adultery and her divorcing her husband to marry me, and that whole family was gone after 10 years. The wages of sin in this life is destruction and in the end is death!

I now chose either to be celibate or to marry only if the woman is a solid born again believer - not on the fence, not carnal, no pet sins. None of this "well we can work around those sins" because rather than her quitting, more likely it's me starting whatever: smoking, drinking, cussing. And we are called to cut those things off, all of which I once did.

So I agree that it is the general hedonism that is dragging America and the West down, and homosexuality is just one part of a larger whole. I don't really single it out - I address it from scripture when it comes up. There was a thread on here awhile back where someone was living in sin with their girlfriend. I addressed that from the Biblical teachings on fornication and marriage.

I don't normally watch TV and do not own one but occasionally see one, and more and more it seems women's body parts are more and more exposed, the clothing getting less and less, on regular TV. Swearing too. All of this combined is error and sin against a Holy God, and with sex sins it's also against ones own body, as we are the temple of the Holy Spirit, and are called not to defile the temple. Amen.

There is no "changing times" excuse. Sure, there might be less agriculture and more city work, factory work, and industry, but sexual sin and drunkenness happens down on the farm too. There's homosexuals in small towns of 500 people as well as big cities of millions. Ultimately it is that seed of sin passed down through Adam that causes people to sin, and being in the last days, sin becomes more rampant and out in the open, hence as Isaiah wrote, "They declare their sin as Sodom" who were proud, but proud of their hedonism, and their alleged "freedom" and liberality, which ultimate brought fiery destruction upon them from God. He cast those flaming globules of sulfur and brimstone upon those cities, and Scripture says He will judge all who live ungodly likewise.

May anyone who is under delusions about any of these things repent, and turn to Jesus with a full heart in obedience to His Word.

... of course people need to repent of their sins. I said nothing to the contrary. What I did say was focused on the importance of how we, as Christians, need to be loving and helpful to those who are still living in sin and/or trying to find their way out of whatever deep-seated darkness they may be in. I've been in too many Baptist style churches where preaching against sin is just about all they do, and like the Pharisees of Jesus day, they do very little, if anything, to actually aid struggling people in life. In fact, some of them go out of their way to "make sure" they are offensive to every single Tom, Rick, and Sally who doesn't yet know Christ. And what I'm saying is: this shouldn't be the case. It's not a matter of avoiding Jesus warning about "Woe unto us when all men speak well of us." No, there's a qualified difference between being rejected by the World simply because we lovingly shared the Gospel message and offered a very helping hand VERSUS us claiming to be "full of the Spirit" and getting rudely into people's faces, especially the faces of those whom we think may live the most disgusting lives and play out certain practices.

No, we can do better.
 
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FireDragon76

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I don't know that YouTube atheism has both come and gone. I think they're still here, even if they've dispersed themselves over more channels with less viewers. Take Derek of Mythvision as but one example. He's still rolling along and providing a network of skeptical/atheist scholars, however one-sided his channel may purposely be. He has 226k subscribers to Vervaeke's still respectable 109k subscribers (as but one single comparison).

As for Andrew Huberman, while he's interesting at times and he has a following in the millions, there's some question out there about his professional integrity.

Atheists like Alex O'Connor (who is probably the most intellectually articulate among atheists right now) have taken a softer stance, though, so I think hard-edged atheism's wave of post-911 religious phobia had crested.
 
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