The mind set on the flesh

[Hammster]

What is it you think fruit is an metaphor of?

Karpos
1. fruit
a. the fruit of the trees, vines, of the fields
b. the fruit of one's loins, i.e. his progeny, his posterity
2. that which originates or comes from something, an effect, result
a. work, act, deed
b. advantage, profit, utility
c. praises, which are presented to God as a thank offering
d. to gather fruit (i.e. a reaped harvest) into life eternal (as into a granary), is used in fig. discourse of those who by their labours have fitted souls to obtain eternal life

Source: Strong's Greek: 2590 καρπός (karpos) - fruit

It’s a metaphor of good works.

 

[zoidar]

It’s a metaphor of good works.

Ok, then are you of the meaning a good man has no bad works and an evil man has no good works? At least you seem to say an evil man has no good works. Logically it would mean a good man has no bad works.

 

[John Mullally]

“The Flesh” in Romans​

The unbeliever, of course, since He does not have the Spirit of God, has no choice but to operate through the flesh. As we have seen in the discussion about the three parts of a person, this says nothing whatsoever about the ability (or inability) of the unregenerate person to believe in Jesus for eternal life. It is not “the flesh” that believes in Jesus, but the spirit.

Proverbs 20:27 The spirit of man is the candle of the Lord, searching all the inward parts of the belly.​

So while Paul is absolutely right that the flesh cannot please God, we should not understand Paul to be saying that a person cannot believe in Jesus for eternal life. God calls all to believe in Jesus, and since faith is not a work of the spirit through the corrupted flesh, our spirit convicted by the Holy Spirit is able to believe in Jesus and receive eternal life from Him. The transition from death into life occurs when we believe the Gospel message..

John 5:24 “Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.​

​

Ephesians 1:13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit,​

​

1 Timothy 4:10 That is why we labor and strive, because we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all people, and especially of those who believe.​

Unbelievers are Not the Focus on Romans 8:7-8​

Of course, having said this, it is important to note that the unregenerate person is not the subject of Paul’s statement in Romans 8:7-8.

Instead, Paul is writing about the experience of believers.

In Romans 7, he wrote about the ongoing struggle with sin that every person experiences (both believer and unbeliever alike), and concluded that description by rejoicing that God has provided a way through Jesus Christ for people to be freed from the bondage to decay and corruption that was brought about by the body of death. As a result of Jesus and the indwelling Holy Spirit, our mind can side with our regenerated spirit now serve the law of God, even though the flesh still serves the law of sin (Romans 7:25).


Taken with some edits from Romans 8:7-8, Enmity with God, and Calvinism

 

[zoidar]

“The Flesh” in Romans​

The unbeliever, of course, since He does not have the Spirit of God, has no choice but to operate through the flesh. As we have seen in the discussion about the three parts of a person, this says nothing whatsoever about the ability (or inability) of the unregenerate person to believe in Jesus for eternal life. It is not “the flesh” that believes in Jesus, but the spirit.

Proverbs 20:27 The spirit of man is the candle of the Lord, searching all the inward parts of the belly.​

So while Paul is absolutely right that the flesh cannot please God, we should not understand Paul to be saying that a person cannot believe in Jesus for eternal life. God calls all to believe in Jesus, and since faith is not a work of the spirit through the corrupted flesh, our spirit convicted by the Holy Spirit is able to believe in Jesus and receive eternal life from Him. The transition from death into life occurs when we believe the Gospel message..

John 5:24 “Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.​

​

Ephesians 1:13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit,​

​

1 Timothy 4:10 That is why we labor and strive, because we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all people, and especially of those who believe.​

Unbelievers are Not the Focus on Romans 8:7-8​

Of course, having said this, it is important to note that the unregenerate person is not the subject of Paul’s statement in Romans 8:7-8.

Instead, Paul is writing about the experience of believers.

In Romans 7, he wrote about the ongoing struggle with sin that every person experiences (both believer and unbeliever alike), and concluded that description by rejoicing that God has provided a way through Jesus Christ for people to be freed from the bondage to decay and corruption that was brought about by the body of death. As a result of Jesus and the indwelling Holy Spirit, our mind can side with our regenerated spirit now serve the law of God, even though the flesh still serves the law of sin (Romans 7:25).


Taken with some edits from Romans 8:7-8, Enmity with God, and Calvinism

Interesting understanding! But the verse below seems to indicate it's about a born again man and a natural man. How would we otherwise understand this verse? Are we to believe some born again believers are according to the flesh?

For those who are according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who are according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit.
— Romans 8:5

 

[John Mullally]

Interesting understanding! But the verse below seems to indicate it's about a born again man and a natural man. How would we otherwise understand this verse? Are we to believe some born again believers are according to the flesh?

For those who are according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who are according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit.
— Romans 8:5

Only our spirit is born again - we still have our flesh to deal with. 1 Corinthians 3:1-5 addresses believers who do not live by the spirit (that is what is stated in the NIV translation) - which I would interpret from Romans 8:5 as setting their minds on the flesh.

1 Corinthians 3:1 Brothers and sisters, I could not address you as people who live by the Spirit but as people who are still worldly—mere infants in Christ. (NIV)​

In 1 Corinthians 9:27, Paul says that if he does not maintain self discipline to keep his body (i.e. flesh) under subjection, he will be disqualified - which I take as losing heavenly rewards (1Corinthians 9:24-25).

 

[zoidar]

Only our spirit is born again - we still have our flesh to deal with. 1 Corinthians 3:1-5 addresses believers who do not live by the spirit (that is what is stated in the NIV translation) - which I would interpret from Romans 8:5 as setting their minds on the flesh.

In 1 Corinthians 9:27, Paul says that if he does not maintain self discipline to keep his body (i.e. flesh) under subjection, he will be disqualified - which I take as losing heavenly rewards (1Corinthians 9:24-25).

Yes, I see! It's the "are" part I'm thinking of. Those "being" in the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh. What does "being in the flesh" mean?

"Those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh..."
- NIV

I don't know about that translation. It's like repeating the same thing. It could just as well read: "Those set their minds on the things of the flesh, live according to the flesh ..." What is the difference living according to the flesh and setting your mind on the things of the flesh?

 

[Hammster]

Ok, then are you of the meaning a good man has no bad works and an evil man has no good works? At least you seem to say an evil man has no good works. Logically it would mean a good man has no bad works.

No, an evil man cannot produce good works because there’s no good in him.

 

[Hammster]

“The Flesh” in Romans​

The unbeliever, of course, since He does not have the Spirit of God, has no choice but to operate through the flesh. As we have seen in the discussion about the three parts of a person, this says nothing whatsoever about the ability (or inability) of the unregenerate person to believe in Jesus for eternal life. It is not “the flesh” that believes in Jesus, but the spirit.

Proverbs 20:27 The spirit of man is the candle of the Lord, searching all the inward parts of the belly.​

So while Paul is absolutely right that the flesh cannot please God, we should not understand Paul to be saying that a person cannot believe in Jesus for eternal life. God calls all to believe in Jesus, and since faith is not a work of the spirit through the corrupted flesh, our spirit convicted by the Holy Spirit is able to believe in Jesus and receive eternal life from Him. The transition from death into life occurs when we believe the Gospel message..

John 5:24 “Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.​

​

Ephesians 1:13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit,​

​

1 Timothy 4:10 That is why we labor and strive, because we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all people, and especially of those who believe.​

Unbelievers are Not the Focus on Romans 8:7-8​

Of course, having said this, it is important to note that the unregenerate person is not the subject of Paul’s statement in Romans 8:7-8.

Instead, Paul is writing about the experience of believers.

In Romans 7, he wrote about the ongoing struggle with sin that every person experiences (both believer and unbeliever alike), and concluded that description by rejoicing that God has provided a way through Jesus Christ for people to be freed from the bondage to decay and corruption that was brought about by the body of death. As a result of Jesus and the indwelling Holy Spirit, our mind can side with our regenerated spirit now serve the law of God, even though the flesh still serves the law of sin (Romans 7:25).


Taken with some edits from Romans 8:7-8, Enmity with God, and Calvinism

And if the believer cannot please God in the flesh, then it certainly means that the unbeliever cannot please God in the flesh.

 

[zoidar]

No, an evil man cannot produce good works because there’s no good in him.

I guess you draw this from Romans 8?

 

[Hammster]

I guess you draw this from Romans 8?

I can draw it from the earlier passages. And Romans 8 definitely supports that.

 

[John Mullally]

Yes, I see! It's the "are" part I'm thinking of. Those "being" in the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh. What does "being in the flesh" mean?

"Those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh..."
- NIV

I don't know about that translation. It's like repeating the same thing. It could just as well read: "Those set their minds on the things of the flesh, live according to the flesh ..." What is the difference living according to the flesh and setting your mind on the things of the flesh?

I prefer verbose terms like "mind set on the things of the flesh" in these kinds of discussions. I avoid using simpler terms like "in the flesh" where it has different meanings in different contexts - see some examples below.

1 John 4:2 This is how you can recognize the Spirit of God: Every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God, (NIV)​

​

2 Corinthians 5:16 Therefore, henceforth know we no man according to the flesh; yea, though we have known Christ according to the flesh, yet now henceforth we know Him so no more. (NIV)​

​

Galatians 5:19-21 describes how people act when they set their mind on the things of the flesh. Certainly while participating in those acts, one is not pleasing God.

Galatians 5:19 The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20 idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 21 and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.​

 

[John Mullally]

No, an evil man cannot produce good works because there’s no good in him.

Pointing out that unreconciled mankind does not produce good works does not mean that they cannot confess their fallen state and reply to His message of reconciliation. There is nothing about being an enemy that implies or necessitates an inability to be reconciled to your enemy, just like there’s nothing about being a slave to sin which implies that you’re incapable of admitting that you’re enslaved when confronted. Just because you are a slave to sin, doesn’t mean that you cannot respond to God who offers to free you.

 

[Hammster]

Pointing out that unreconciled mankind does not produce good works does not mean that they cannot confess their fallen state and reply to His message of reconciliation. There is nothing about being an enemy that implies or necessitates an inability to be reconciled to your enemy, just like there’s nothing about being a slave to sin which implies that you’re incapable of admitting that you’re enslaved when confronted. Just because you are a slave to sin, doesn’t mean that you cannot respond to God who offers to free you.

All of that is wrong. You can only please God in the Spirit. That’s what Paul is taking about in Romans 8. If a believer can’t set his mind on the Spirit if he’s in the flesh, an unbeliever cannot because they cannot even be in the Spirit. All they have is the flesh.

 

[John Mullally]

All of that is wrong.

You sharply dismiss without addressing any of the points of my argument.

You can only please God in the Spirit. That’s what Paul is taking about in Romans 8. If a believer can’t set his mind on the Spirit if he’s in the flesh, an unbeliever cannot because they cannot even be in the Spirit.

Again, this section of Romans 8 continues from Romans 7 and is addressed to believers. It is strongly exhorting believers to put their mind on the spirit instead of the flesh. Paul is not telling unbelievers to put their mind on the Spirit - their starting point is to believe the Gospel, not waiting until you feel born again.

Yet you are making it about a Calvinist pet doctrine that the lost cannot believe until they are first born again by the Holy Spirit.

Jesus and Paul directly say that hearing and believing the gospel transitions people into the kingdom of God. There is no scripture that expressly says that one must be born again in order to believe the gospel. If that were true I would expect it to be plainly stated in scripture due to its importance.

John 5:24 “Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.​

​

Mark 16:15 He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation.16 Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.​

​

Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God that brings salvation to everyone who believes: first to the Jew, then to the Gentile.​

​

Ephesians 1:13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit,​

All they have is the flesh.

The unbeliever's mind (which is part of his soul) will be set on the things of the flesh. The saved and lost have spirit, soul, and flesh and the Holy Spirit communicates with man's spirit - never the flesh.

Proverbs 20:27 The spirit of man is the candle of the Lord, searching all the inward parts of the belly.​

 

[Hammster]

You sharply dismiss without addressing any of the points of my argument.

I did. That was the rest of my post.

Again, this section of Romans 8 continues from Romans 7 and is addressed to believers. It is strongly exhorting believers to put their mind on the spirit instead of the flesh. Paul is not telling unbelievers to put their mind on the Spirit - they need to believe the Gospel.

Yet you are making it about a Calvinist pet doctrine that the lost cannot believe until they are first born again by the Holy Spirit.

Jesus and Paul directly say that hearing and believing the gospel transitions people into the kingdom of God. There is no scripture that expressly says that one must be born again in order to believe the gospel. If that were true I would expect it to be plainly stated in scripture due to its importance.

John 5:24 “Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.​

​

Mark 16:15 He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation.16 Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.​

​

Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God that brings salvation to everyone who believes: first to the Jew, then to the Gentile.​

​

Ephesians 1:13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit,​

The unbeliever's mind (which is part of his soul) will be set on the things of the flesh. The saved and lost have spirit, soul, and flesh and the Holy Spirit communicates with man's spirit - never the flesh.

Proverbs 20:27 The spirit of man is the candle of the Lord, searching all the inward parts of the belly.​

And once again, if you are correct and Romans 8 is discussing the believer, then it stands to reason that if a believer cannot please God in the flesh, even though he has the Spirit, then an unbeliever who doesn’t have the Spirit cannot please God.

 

[zoidar]

I can draw it from the earlier passages. And Romans 8 definitely supports that.

Ok! I wouldn't use Romans to get the understandning of the "good/ bad fruit - teachings" in the Gospels. I don't think it's the right approach to get its intended meaning.

 

[Hammster]

Ok! I wouldn't use Romans to get the understandning of the "good/ bad fruit - teachings" in the Gospels. I don't think it's the right approach to get its intended meaning.

Okay. I disagree.

However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him.
— Romans 8:9

There is the distinction that Paul makes. And the implication is that those in the Spirit please God. This is the same as the good tree. It’s clear throughout that what we do outwardly is because of what we are inwardly. And your argument has been that someone who is bad inwardly (does not have the Spirit) can somehow do good.

 

[John Mullally]

I did. That was the rest of my post.

False. You never referenced any of my points other than to dismiss them in bulk.

And once again, if you are correct and Romans 8 is discussing the believer, then it stands to reason that if a believer cannot please God in the flesh, even though he has the Spirit, then an unbeliever who doesn’t have the Spirit cannot please God.

This type of Romans 8:5 Calvinist argument is a common one. He isolates a section of text addressed to believers and from that crafts a state machine with “in the Spirit” and “in the flesh” states where unbelievers have no path to "in the spirit" and please God outside of a pre-faith regeneration. But that is not what Paul is trying to convey, because the text is addressed to believers. Pre-faith regeneration is the Calvinist teaching that the Holy Spirit must cause a person's spirit to be born-again and alive to God in order to believe the Gospel.

Paul identifies that which keeps the lost from believing the Gospel in 2 Corinthians 4:3-4 and there is no mention of grace, regeneration, or Calvinist Total Depravity.

2 Corinthians 4:3 And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing. 4 The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel that displays the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.​

​

The passages from Jesus and Paul that I quoted in Post 234 show that the transition into the kingdom of God occurs when we believe. If pre-faith regeneration is required to believe, I would expect it to be plainly stated in scripture.

 

[zoidar]

Okay. I disagree.

However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him.
— Romans 8:9

There is the distinction that Paul makes. And the implication is that those in the Spirit please God. This is the same as the good tree. It’s clear throughout that what we do outwardly is because of what we are inwardly. And your argument has been that someone who is bad inwardly (does not have the Spirit) can somehow do good.

A friend of mine who wasn't a Christian owned a construction company. He had plans to build a church for Christian worship. He had deep respect for Christians even he wasn't a believer himself. Now I believe God would have seen this as something good, a pleasing act, even it was never done with the intention to serve God. The life he was living on the other hand could never please God, since he wasn't a born again follower of Christ. Another way to put it, God was never pleased with him, but was pleased with the act. So I make the distinction from doing a single pleasing act to living a pleasing life, having a relationship with God. Only the latter saves.

One reason this church was never built, was because my friend died from an heart attack. It's a very sad story.

 

[Hammster]

A friend of mine who wasn't a Christian owned a construction company. He had plans to build a church for Christian worship. He had deep respect for Christians even he wasn't a believer himself. Now I believe God would have seen this as something good, a pleasing act, even it was never done with the intention to serve God. The life he was living on the other hand could never please God, since he wasn't a born again follower of Christ. Another way to put it, God was never pleased with him, but was pleased with the act. So I make the distinction from doing a single pleasing act to living a pleasing life, having a relationship with God. Only the latter saves.

One reason this church was never built, was because my friend died from an heart attack. It's a very sad story.

Why do you think God would be pleased with him doing something that would not be for God’s glorification?