Saved by Grace doesn't mean our works don't matter. Ephesian's over all context screams this.

[fhansen]

Like I said, "There is a large contingent within "Christianity" which does not recognize or understand the change of nature that occurs when Jesus comes to live in a person's heart." You are making my point for me.

Not at all. I've probably emphasized the change- both the scope of it and the profundity of it- more than either of us. The problem is that you fail to recognize that a believer can still fail to appreciate that change and return to the flesh/the world. failing to remain in Him, to persevere. We cannot come to Him unless He draws us, but we can still walk away from Him, shown by refusing to do His will. God ultimately forces Himself upon no one. IOW, man is and remains a morally accountable being while working out his salvation with He who works in us.

When Peter wrote, that through the "exceedingly great and precious promises" we "may be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust" (2 Pe 1:4), he was writing about the glories associated with becoming one spirit with God through union with Christ.

Peter continues on after 2 Pet 1:4:
"5 For this very reason, make every effort to add to your faith goodness; and to goodness, knowledge; 6 and to knowledge, self-control; and to self-control, perseverance; and to perseverance, godliness; and to godliness, mutual affection; and to mutual affection, love. For if you possess these qualities in increasing measure, they will keep you from being ineffective and unproductive in your knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. But whoever does not have them is nearsighted and blind, forgetting that they have been cleansed from their past sins. Therefore, my brothers and sisters, make every effort to confirm your calling and election. For if you do these things, you will never stumble, and you will receive a rich welcome into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ."

Then Peter continues on in the very next chapter, expounding on what can happen to those who've "escaped the corruption that is in the world":
"If indeed they have escaped the corruption of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, only to be entangled and overcome by it again, their final condition is worse than it was at first. It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness than to have known it and then to turn away from the holy commandment passed on to them. Of them the proverbs are true: “A dog returns to its vomit,” and, “A sow that is washed goes back to her wallowing in the mud.” 2 Pet 2:20-22

 

[contratodo]

@B Griffin @Samson2021

Let us examine the account of King Josiah.

He was eight years old when he began to reign and is stated that he did that which was right in the sight of the Lord.
He repairs the temple and finds the Torah, he repents and causes Israel to keep the law.

The Lord promises him; "Because thine heart was tender .... Behold therefore, I will gather you unto your fathers,
and you shall die a natural death in peace; and thine eye shall not see all the evil that I will bring to this place."
2 Kings 22:20

But what happened?
In his days Pharaoh went against Assyria, and Josiah went against him; and Pharaoh slew Josiah at Megiddo.
2 Kings 22:29-30

Pharaoh sent ambassadors to Josiah, saying, what have I to do with you, thou king of Judah?
I am come not against thee this day, but against the kingdom wherewith I have war:
for God commanded me to make haste (against Assyria) forbear thee from meddling with God,
who is with me, that He destroy thee not.
2 Chronicles 35:21 2 Chronicles 35:22

What happened?
God promised Josiah that he would die a natural peaceful death.
But Josiah chose to go after a war that was not his and suffered the consequence of his own choice.





And let us not be weary in well doing,
for in due time we shall reap, if we faint not.
Galatians 6:9

 

[B Griffin]

Not at all. I've probably emphasized the change- both the scope of it and the profundity of it- more than either of us. The problem is that you fail to recognize that a believer can still fail to appreciate that change and return to the flesh/the world. failing to remain in Him, to persevere. We cannot come to Him unless He draws us, but we can still walk away from Him, shown by refusing to do His will. God ultimately forces Himself upon no one. IOW, man is and remains a morally accountable being while working out his salvation with He who works in us.

Peter continues on after 2 Pet 1:4:
"5 For this very reason, make every effort to add to your faith goodness; and to goodness, knowledge; 6 and to knowledge, self-control; and to self-control, perseverance; and to perseverance, godliness; and to godliness, mutual affection; and to mutual affection, love. For if you possess these qualities in increasing measure, they will keep you from being ineffective and unproductive in your knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. But whoever does not have them is nearsighted and blind, forgetting that they have been cleansed from their past sins. Therefore, my brothers and sisters, make every effort to confirm your calling and election. For if you do these things, you will never stumble, and you will receive a rich welcome into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ."

Then Peter continues on in the very next chapter, expounding on what can happen to those who've "escaped the corruption that is in the world":
"If indeed they have escaped the corruption of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, only to be entangled and overcome by it again, their final condition is worse than it was at first. It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness than to have known it and then to turn away from the holy commandment passed on to them. Of them the proverbs are true: “A dog returns to its vomit,” and, “A sow that is washed goes back to her wallowing in the mud.” 2 Pet 2:20-22

The entire 2nd chapter of 2 Peter is talking about the things that are true of false prophets. It is not talking about Christians turning away from God after being saved. And "μίασμα" in 2:20 is not the same thing as "φθορά" in 1:4, 2:12, and 2:19. The former is about pagan practicies, while the later is about depravity.

Be that as it may, I just noticed that you are primarily focused on Christians losing their salvation. Here are excerpts from your responses to several recent posts:

The concept that sin doesn't matter for a believer, and that he cannot compromise and break that relationship, is quite new.

But one must throw out half of Scripture to think that, once freely justified, on cannot forfeit that state of justice by living unjustly, and not doing those things which we're commanded to do, mocking God and trampling upon the work of His Son.

We are saved as we turn from our old life and believe in the Giver of life. There's a cooperative effort taking place as God calls and moves us, and we don't resist, we respond. And that cooperation must continue to take place throughout our lives. We can compromise that state of being. What's done can be undone, or left uncared for, uncultivated.

Anyway, your position that we cannot turn away from or neglect that union, and in any case fail to live as a child of God should, is untenable.

IOW, those who don’t love aren’t God’s children. This is all addressed to those who’ve heard the word and have turned to Christ, accepting forgiveness of their sins and becoming new creations in Him.

The question is whether or not partakers of the divine nature can refrain from partaking, whether they can turn back away from God and lose their status as His adopted sons and daughters.

The problem is that you fail to recognize that a believer can still fail to appreciate that change and return to the flesh/the world.

So, you are right. Our failure to communicate is because we have antithetical soteriological viewpoints. We disagree on the definition of salvation, we disagree on the nature of salvation, we disagree on the origin of salvation, we disagree on the duration of salvation, and we disagree on the effect of salvation. It is almost as if we are talking about two different things.

 

[B Griffin]

@B Griffin @Samson2021

Let us examine the account of King Josiah.

He was eight years old when he began to reign and is stated that he did that which was right in the sight of the Lord.
He repairs the temple and finds the Torah, he repents and causes Israel to keep the law.

The Lord promises him; "Because thine heart was tender .... Behold therefore, I will gather you unto your fathers,
and you shall die a natural death in peace; and thine eye shall not see all the evil that I will bring to this place."
2 Kings 22:20

But what happened?
In his days Pharaoh went against Assyria, and Josiah went against him; and Pharaoh slew Josiah at Megiddo.
2 Kings 22:29-30

Pharaoh sent ambassadors to Josiah, saying, what have I to do with you, thou king of Judah?
I am come not against thee this day, but against the kingdom wherewith I have war:
for God commanded me to make haste (against Assyria) forbear thee from meddling with God,
who is with me, that He destroy thee not.
2 Chronicles 35:21 2 Chronicles 35:22

What happened?
God promised Josiah that he would die a natural peaceful death.
But Josiah chose to go after a war that was not his and suffered the consequence of his own choice.

And let us not be weary in well doing,
for in due time we shall reap, if we faint not.
Galatians 6:9

Suffering the consequences of your actions is not related to salvation, lol, or we'd all be lost forever.

 

[fhansen]

The entire 2nd chapter of 2 Peter is talking about the things that are true of false prophets. It is not talking about Christians turning away from God after being saved. And "μίασμα" in 2:20 is not the same thing as "φθορά" in 1:4, 2:12, and 2:19. The former is about pagan practicies, while the later is about depravity.

Be that as it may, I just noticed that you are primarily focused on Christians losing their salvation. Here are excerpts from your responses to several recent posts:







So, you are right. Our failure to communicate is because we have antithetical soteriological viewpoints. We disagree on the definition of salvation, we disagree on the nature of salvation, we disagree on the origin of salvation, we disagree on the duration of salvation, and we disagree on the effect of salvation. It is almost as if we are talking about two different things.

Yes, although there are similarities and places of agreement as well. What I agree with in any case are the historic teachings of Christianity, as received and taught by the church in the east and west along with the patristics-and Scripture.

And Scripture, as per 2 Peter, specifies those who've "escaped the corruption of the world", by "knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ", and yet "are again entangled in it and are overcome..."

 

[rturner76]

-

​

A person who believes in Jesus for God's free gift of Eternal Life. Is called to live a Christ like life and not one of worldly sin. But this call is a discipleship call and not a requirement to be met to receive God's free gift of Eternal Life.

So, do you believe that once one accepts Christ's salvation, they have no need to actually follow Christ's example to the best of their ability? We are forgiven for not being born perfect like Christ but do you really think that accepting Christ as your savior means one has no need to make any changes in their life?

 

[d taylor]

So, do you believe that once one accepts Christ's salvation, they have no need to actually follow Christ's example to the best of their ability? We are forgiven for not being born perfect like Christ but do you really think that accepting Christ as your savior means one has no need to make any changes in their life?

-
​

Not sure what you mean by accept Christ's salvation.

What i believe is, when a person believes in Jesus for God's free gift of Eternal Life (salvation). They receive Eternal Life life at the very moment of belief and immediately they are born again and become a permanent child of God.

Changes may or may not come in ones life, that depends on how well they (being a new believer) are discipleship.
The parable of the soils gives an example of three types of believers. One fell away, one went a little long before getting caught back up into the cares of the world and the last believer bore much fruit.

If a person has to do a life change to bring about God's free gift of Eternal Life. Then the gift is not actually free and it is not by grace a person is saved.

But the gift is free and it is by God's grace, a person receives The Life of God.

 

[rturner76]

-
​

Not sure what you by accept Christ's salvation.

What i believe is, when a person believes in Jesus for God's free gift of Eternal Life (salvation). They receive Eternal Life life at the very moment of belief and immediately they are born again and become a permanent child of God.

Changes may or may not come in ones life, that depends on how well they (being a new believer) are disciple shipped.
The parable of the soils gives an example of three types of believers. One fell away, one went a little long before getting caught back up into the cares of the world and the last believer bore much fruit.

If a person has to do a life change to bring about God's free gift of Eternal Life. Then the gift is not actually free and it is not by grace a person is saved.

But the gift is free and it is by God's grace, a person receives The Life of God.

I guess I think of faith as a verb and not a noun. "Repent and be saved" echoes throughout the New Testament. We are saved by grace THROUGH FAITH. The question becomes, "what is faith." Is "faith" something that must be proclaimed one time and no change must be made to one's lifestyle? Let's see how The New Testament views this.

The Bible places a significant emphasis on repentance as a central theme in the relationship between humanity and God. Repentance is portrayed as a crucial step towards reconciliation and restoration. In Acts 3:19 (NIV), the apostle Peter exhorts, "Repent, then, and turn to God, so that your sins may be wiped out, that times of refreshing may come from the Lord." This verse encapsulates the biblical message of repentance, linking it to forgiveness and the experience of spiritual renewal.

Throughout both the Old and New Testaments, various passages underscore the call for genuine repentance. In the Old Testament, prophets like Isaiah and Jeremiah repeatedly implore the people to turn away from sin and return to God. Jeremiah 15:19 (NIV) states, "Therefore this is what the Lord says: 'If you repent, I will restore you that you may serve me; if you utter worthy, not worthless, words, you will be my spokesman.'" Here, the connection between repentance, restoration, and service to God is evident.

In the New Testament, Jesus Himself emphasizes the importance of repentance in His teachings. Mark 1:15 (NIV) records His words: "The time has come... The kingdom of God has come near. Repent and believe the good news!" This reflects the idea that repentance is a fundamental response to the message of the Gospel, leading to a transformed life through faith.

the Bible consistently presents repentance as a pivotal aspect of the spiritual journey, emphasizing its role in forgiveness, restoration, and a renewed relationship with God. It calls for individuals to turn away from sin, seek God's mercy, and embrace a life of faith and obedience.

All from:

Top 25+ Scriptures about Repentance in the Bible

To repent means to turn to God and turn from evil. Repenting is what brings us close to God and ensures our salvation. Learn more about repentance means from these Scriptures and Bible verses.

www.biblestudytools.com

Acts 3:19 - Repent therefore, and turn back, that your sins may be blotted out,

Matthew 4:17 - From that time Jesus began to preach, saying, “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.”

2 Peter 3:9 - The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance.

Acts 2:38 - And Peter said to them, “Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

2 Chronicles 7:14 - If my people who are called by my name humble themselves, and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven and will forgive their sin and heal their land.

Matthew 3:8 - Bear fruit in keeping with repentance.

Acts 17:30 - The times of ignorance God overlooked, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent,

Luke 13:3 - No, I tell you; but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish.

1 John 1:9 - If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

Proverbs 28:13 - Whoever conceals his transgressions will not prosper, but he who confesses and forsakes them will obtain mercy.

Matthew 3:2 - “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.”

Repentance and obedience are certainly a part of God's plan of salvation and on Earthly matters, we must change our direction in order to live for God and not ourselves.

Some take the grace alone doctrine into Universal Salvation.

 

[d taylor]

I guess I think of faith as a verb and not a noun. "Repent and be saved" echoes throughout the New Testament. We are saved by grace THROUGH FAITH. The question becomes, "what is faith." Is "faith" something that must be proclaimed one time and no change must be made to one's lifestyle? Let's see how The New Testament views this.

The Bible places a significant emphasis on repentance as a central theme in the relationship between humanity and God. Repentance is portrayed as a crucial step towards reconciliation and restoration. In Acts 3:19 (NIV), the apostle Peter exhorts, "Repent, then, and turn to God, so that your sins may be wiped out, that times of refreshing may come from the Lord." This verse encapsulates the biblical message of repentance, linking it to forgiveness and the experience of spiritual renewal.

Throughout both the Old and New Testaments, various passages underscore the call for genuine repentance. In the Old Testament, prophets like Isaiah and Jeremiah repeatedly implore the people to turn away from sin and return to God. Jeremiah 15:19 (NIV) states, "Therefore this is what the Lord says: 'If you repent, I will restore you that you may serve me; if you utter worthy, not worthless, words, you will be my spokesman.'" Here, the connection between repentance, restoration, and service to God is evident.

In the New Testament, Jesus Himself emphasizes the importance of repentance in His teachings. Mark 1:15 (NIV) records His words: "The time has come... The kingdom of God has come near. Repent and believe the good news!" This reflects the idea that repentance is a fundamental response to the message of the Gospel, leading to a transformed life through faith.

the Bible consistently presents repentance as a pivotal aspect of the spiritual journey, emphasizing its role in forgiveness, restoration, and a renewed relationship with God. It calls for individuals to turn away from sin, seek God's mercy, and embrace a life of faith and obedience.

All from:

Top 25+ Scriptures about Repentance in the Bible

To repent means to turn to God and turn from evil. Repenting is what brings us close to God and ensures our salvation. Learn more about repentance means from these Scriptures and Bible verses.

www.biblestudytools.com

Acts 3:19 - Repent therefore, and turn back, that your sins may be blotted out,

Matthew 4:17 - From that time Jesus began to preach, saying, “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.”

2 Peter 3:9 - The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance.

Acts 2:38 - And Peter said to them, “Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

2 Chronicles 7:14 - If my people who are called by my name humble themselves, and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven and will forgive their sin and heal their land.

Matthew 3:8 - Bear fruit in keeping with repentance.

Acts 17:30 - The times of ignorance God overlooked, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent,

Luke 13:3 - No, I tell you; but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish.

1 John 1:9 - If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

Proverbs 28:13 - Whoever conceals his transgressions will not prosper, but he who confesses and forsakes them will obtain mercy.

Matthew 3:2 - “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.”

Repentance and obedience are certainly a part of God's plan of salvation and on Earthly matters, we must change our direction in order to live for God and not ourselves.

Some take the grace alone doctrine into Universal Salvation.

-
​

Not a single verse you posted mentions repent and be saved.

Plus the only book of The Bible whose stated purpose for being written. Which is to tell people how to have life (eternal Life). Never mentions repentance as a condition to receive God's free gift of Eternal Life, only belief in Jesus.

And truly Jesus did many other signs in the presence of His disciples, which are not written in this book; but these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing you may have life in His name.

Repentance restores broken harmony or fellowship with God, with the believer. Repentance for the unbeliever may make them more receptive to believe in Jesus, but repentance is not required to be able to believe in Jesus.

 

[B Griffin]

So, do you believe that once one accepts Christ's salvation, they have no need to actually follow Christ's example to the best of their ability? We are forgiven for not being born perfect like Christ but do you really think that accepting Christ as your savior means one has no need to make any changes in their life?

I have underlined the words which indicate a misunderstanding of salvation. When a person is inhabited by God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit, he becomes a new creature. The new man is "created according to God in true righteousness and holiness" (Eph 4:24). If there are any desires to follow Christ's example or if there is any evidence of a changed life, it is because God has come to live in the person's heart. In other words, if there is any good in you at all, it is because Jesus is in your heart. If anyone thinks otherwise, then he thinks the good in him is his own doing.

 

[contratodo]

Suffering the consequences of your actions is not related to salvation, lol, or we'd all be lost forever.

He that sows to the flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption
He that sows to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.
And let us not be weary in well doing for in due time, we shall reap, [life everlasting] IF we faint not.
Galatians 6:8-9

I declare unto you the good news.... by which you are saved IF you keep in memory what I preached to you
UNLESS you have BELIEVED IN VAIN. 1 Corinthians 15:2

If it is only belief then one can not believe in vain.

They receive Eternal Life life at the very moment of belief and immediately they are born again and become a permanent child of God.

Eternal life is literal not figurative, we do not receive an immortal glorified physical body the moment of belief.
We receive such when Christ returns.
Paul stated it is possible to believe in vain, making it clear that belief only is not the key, proper belief and lifestyle are the key,
having an actual relationship with Christ is the key.

Let them who have believed be careful to maintain good works Titus 3:8
For we are Gods creation created in Christ Jesus for good works Ephesians 2:10
For what avails anything is faith that works by love Galatians 5:6-7
For faith without works is dead, being alone James 2:17-18
They are giving the same message, in fact James is addressing peoples misunderstandings of Paul.
Both James and Peter do such.

... [in Paul's letters] are some things hard to be understood
and unlearned and unstable men shall take and twist them
as they do the other scriptures 2 Peter 3:15-16

Unlearned how? They don't know that Paul is mostly talking from and about the Torah,
excited about the good news, that we need not follow all those rules anymore, only Jesus.
But Paul is getting his inspiration directly from the Torah, and always referring to the message from Christ; love.

"he is not a Jew which is one outwardly... circumcision is that of the heart"

"Circumcise therefore the foreskin of your heart.... Love ye therefore the stranger"
Deuteronomy 10:16-19 is where Paul was coming from.

My sheep hear my voice
John 10:27

I say unto you that hear, love
Luke 6:27


If anyone does not love the Lord Jesus Christ, let that person be Anathema! Oh Lord Come!
1 Corinthians 16:22 [ 1 Corinthians 1:13 ]

Again Paul is referring to the message from Christ:

He that does not love me, does not keep my teaching
John 14:24 [ John 14:22, John 14:23, 2 John 1:9-11, Matthew 7:28, 1 Timothy 6:3 ]



And Paul explains what it means to be a child of God!
Paul therefore gives a clear explanation of what 'born again' means!

If you live after the flesh you shall die.
But if you through the Spirit do put to death the deeds of the flesh, you shall live.
Because as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the children of God.
Romans 8:13-14

As many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the children of God.

Clearly Paul does not mean led to say a prayer,
he means led in their lives by the Spirit away from fleshly desires.



The specifics are that saying a prayer and believing grants one the Holy Spirit for free by grace, [ Luke 11:13, Galatians 3:2, Ephesians 1:13 ]
and we are saved by the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Ghost
which God shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Lord. [ Titus 3:5-6 ]

Not just by having the Spirit, but by actually following the Spirit, being renewed by the Spirit.
The Spirit equips the believer with love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, meekness, and self control.

Those are the talents given to us for free by grace.
Washed and renewed by the Holy Ghost we then can live the way Christ taught. [ Luke 6:27-49 ]

Because as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the ones born of God, the ones born again.
"that which is born of the flesh is flesh and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit"

And they that belong to Christ have crucified the flesh with its passions and its lusts
Galatians 5:24

So being born again is not about just saying a prayer, but about being sincerely led by the Holy Spirit.

In other words, if there is any good in you at all, it is because Jesus is in your heart. If anyone thinks otherwise, then he thinks the good in him is his own doing.

Amen.

 

[RDKirk]

"Saved by grace" means that God now has a "to do" list for us.

 

[d taylor]

He that sows to the flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption
He that sows to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.
And let us not be weary in well doing for in due time, we shall reap, [life everlasting] IF we faint not.
Galatians 6:8-9

I declare unto you the good news.... by which you are saved IF you keep in memory what I preached to you
UNLESS you have BELIEVED IN VAIN. 1 Corinthians 15:2

If it is only belief then one can not believe in vain.



Eternal life is literal not figurative, we do not receive an immortal glorified physical body the moment of belief.
We receive such when Christ returns.
Paul stated it is possible to believe in vain, making it clear that belief only is not the key, proper belief and lifestyle are the key,
having an actual relationship with Christ is the key.

Let them who have believed be careful to maintain good works Titus 3:8
For we are Gods creation created in Christ Jesus for good works Ephesians 2:10
For what avails anything is faith that works by love Galatians 5:6-7
For faith without works is dead, being alone James 2:17-18
They are giving the same message, in fact James is addressing peoples misunderstandings of Paul.
Both James and Peter do such.

... [in Paul's letters] are some things hard to be understood
and unlearned and unstable men shall take and twist them
as they do the other scriptures 2 Peter 3:15-16

Unlearned how? They don't know that Paul is mostly talking from and about the Torah,
excited about the good news, that we need not follow all those rules anymore, only Jesus.
But Paul is getting his inspiration directly from the Torah, and always referring to the message from Christ; love.

"he is not a Jew which is one outwardly... circumcision is that of the heart"

"Circumcise therefore the foreskin of your heart.... Love ye therefore the stranger"
Deuteronomy 10:16-19 is where Paul was coming from.

My sheep hear my voice
John 10:27

I say unto you that hear, love
Luke 6:27


If anyone does not love the Lord Jesus Christ, let that person be Anathema! Oh Lord Come!
1 Corinthians 16:22 [ 1 Corinthians 1:13 ]

Again Paul is referring to the message from Christ:

He that does not love me, does not keep my teaching
John 14:24 [ John 14:22, John 14:23, 2 John 1:9-11, Matthew 7:28, 1 Timothy 6:3 ]



And Paul explains what it means to be a child of God!
Paul therefore gives a clear explanation of what 'born again' means!

If you live after the flesh you shall die.
But if you through the Spirit do put to death the deeds of the flesh, you shall live.
Because as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the children of God.
Romans 8:13-14

As many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the children of God.

Clearly Paul does not mean led to say a prayer,
he means led in their lives by the Spirit away from fleshly desires.



The specifics are that saying a prayer and believing grants one the Holy Spirit for free by grace, [ Luke 11:13, Galatians 3:2, Ephesians 1:13 ]
and we are saved by the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Ghost
which God shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Lord. [ Titus 3:5-6 ]

Not just by having the Spirit, but by actually following the Spirit, being renewed by the Spirit.
The Spirit equips the believer with love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, meekness, and self control.

Those are the talents given to us for free by grace.
Washed and renewed by the Holy Ghost we then can live the way Christ taught. [ Luke 6:27-49 ]

Because as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the ones born of God, the ones born again.
"that which is born of the flesh is flesh and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit"

And they that belong to Christ have crucified the flesh with its passions and its lusts
Galatians 5:24

So being born again is not about just saying a prayer, but about being sincerely led by the Holy Spirit.



Amen.

-
​

i usually do not respond to grouped quoting of post, but you are incorrect in your understanding and i will not reply to another grouped quoting of post.

 

[contratodo]

i usually do not respond to grouped quoting of post, but you are incorrect in your understanding and i will not reply to another grouped quoting of post.

Which verse is incorrect?

 

[d taylor]

Which verse is incorrect?

-

​

Which verse, you are taking verses out of context and creating a belief, anyone can do this.

Eternal Life, is the Life of God that a person immediately receives at the very moment of belief in Jesus.

Read this verse
“Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life.

The verse states the believer has passed from death to life. the verse does not say will eventually pass from death to life.

You use a verse from 1 Corinthians 15 by which also you are saved, if you hold fast that word which I preached to you—unless you believed in vain.

The believing is not stating some are holding a false belief in Jesus. The unless you believed in vain. is addressing the fact that Jesus did die and was resurrected. That if Jesus did not die and was not resurrected then their belief would be in vain.

But Paul goes on to state that Christ did die and was resurrected, Paul writes of the many witnesses to this event.
For I delivered to you first of all that which I also received: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, and that He was buried, and that He rose again the third day according to the Scriptures, and that He was seen by Cephas, then by the twelve. After that He was seen by over five hundred brethren at once, of whom the greater part remain to the present, but some have fallen asleep. After that He was seen by James, then by all the apostles. Then last of all He was seen by me also, as by one born out of due time.

 

[contratodo]

he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me

What is His word? And who is 'Him who sent Me'?
That is who Jesus said to believe in that verse, 'Him who sent Me'.



In 1 Corinthians 15:2 let us not neglect the if statement, it is conditional, "if you hold fast that word which I preached to you"
What is the word Paul preached to you?
Romans, Corinthians, Galatians, Ephesians ... Thessalonians 5:27



2 John 1:9-11 [ 1 Timothy 6:3-4 John 14:24 1 Corinthians 16:22 ]

"Whoever disobeys the Torah, and abides not in the doctrine of Christ has not God,
whoever abides in the doctrine of Christ, has both the Father and the Son.
If anyone comes to you, and does not bring this teaching,
do not invite him into your house, neither bid him god speed, lest you be partaker of his evil deeds"


".....in conclusion, treat people the way you want to be treated,
for this is the law and the prophets.....
And they were astonished at His doctrine
for He taught as one with authority"
Matthew 7:28

 

[d taylor]

What is His word? And who is 'Him who sent Me'?
That is who Jesus said to believe in that verse, 'Him who sent Me'.



In 1 Corinthians 15:2 let us not neglect the if statement, it is conditional, "if you hold fast that word which I preached to you"
What is the word Paul preached to you?
Romans, Corinthians, Galatians, Ephesians ... Thessalonians 5:27



2 John 1:9-11 [ 1 Timothy 6:3-4 John 14:24 1 Corinthians 16:22 ]

"Whoever disobeys the Torah, and abides not in the doctrine of Christ has not God,
whoever abides in the doctrine of Christ, has both the Father and the Son.
If anyone comes to you, and does not bring this teaching,
do not invite him into your house, neither bid him god speed, lest you be partaker of his evil deeds"


".....in conclusion, treat people the way you want to be treated,
for this is the law and the prophets.....
And they were astonished at His doctrine
for He taught as one with authority"
Matthew 7:28

I isolated John 5:24 to address your post. If you will read the verses before John 5:24 this is explained that it is belief in Jesus, because God (The Father) sent Jesus.

For this reason the Jews persecuted Jesus, and sought to kill Him, because He had done these things on the Sabbath. But Jesus answered them, “My Father has been working until now, and I have been working.”
Therefore the Jews sought all the more to kill Him, because He not only broke the Sabbath, but also said that God was His Father, making Himself equal with God. Then Jesus answered and said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of Himself, but what He sees the Father do; for whatever He does, the Son also does in like manner. For the Father loves the Son, and shows Him all things that He Himself does; and He will show Him greater works than these, that you may marvel. For as the Father raises the dead and gives life to them, even so the Son gives life to whom He will. For the Father judges no one, but has committed all judgment to the Son, that all should honor the Son just as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him.

So if the Jews believed The Father, they would also believe Jesus and who He states He is: The promised Messiah/Son of God.

Because God has witness about His Son.
If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater; for this is the witness of God which He has testified of His Son.

Concerning 1 Corinthians 15, do you understand Paul is writing to believers. But to believers who are holding a false belief about the dead being resurrected. They are saying the dead are not raised.
Now if Christ is preached that He has been raised from the dead, how do some among you say that there is no resurrection of the dead?

The saving in 1 Corinthians 15, is the saving of believers from being disciplined by God for holding false beliefs. Or the saving may be, the saving of a believer from physical harm or even physical death.

Paul addresses this in 2nd Timothy
But you have carefully followed my doctrine, manner of life, purpose, faith, long suffering, love, perseverance, persecutions, afflictions, which happened to me at Antioch, at Iconium, at Lystra—what persecutions I endured. And out of them all the Lord delivered me. Yes, and all who desire to live godly in Christ Jesus will suffer persecution. But evil men and impostors will grow worse and worse, deceiving and being deceived. But you must continue in the things which you have learned and been assured of, knowing from whom you have learned them, and that from childhood you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

The wise for salvation is a physical salvation of the believer

 

[d taylor]

What is His word? And who is 'Him who sent Me'?
That is who Jesus said to believe in that verse, 'Him who sent Me'.



In 1 Corinthians 15:2 let us not neglect the if statement, it is conditional, "if you hold fast that word which I preached to you"
What is the word Paul preached to you?
Romans, Corinthians, Galatians, Ephesians ... Thessalonians 5:27



2 John 1:9-11 [ 1 Timothy 6:3-4 John 14:24 1 Corinthians 16:22 ]

"Whoever disobeys the Torah, and abides not in the doctrine of Christ has not God,
whoever abides in the doctrine of Christ, has both the Father and the Son.
If anyone comes to you, and does not bring this teaching,
do not invite him into your house, neither bid him god speed, lest you be partaker of his evil deeds"


".....in conclusion, treat people the way you want to be treated,
for this is the law and the prophets.....
And they were astonished at His doctrine
for He taught as one with authority"
Matthew 7:28

-​

I would suggest you take a look at this site Grace Evangelical Society . especially since it looks like you are basing receiving Eternal Life (salvation) on actions you are doing and not so much on belief in Jesus.

 

[B Griffin]

Which verse, you are taking verses out of context and creating a belief, anyone can do this.

Eternal Life, is the Life of God that a person immediately receives at the very moment of belief in Jesus.

Read this verse
“Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life.

The verse states the believer has passed from death to life. the verse does not say will eventually pass from death to life.

Good point. But the doctrinal inertia away from the truth probably didn't start with contratodo.

You use a verse from 1 Corinthians 15 by which also you are saved, if you hold fast that word which I preached to you—unless you believed in vain.

The believing is not stating some are holding a false belief in Jesus. The unless you believed in vain. is addressing the fact that Jesus did die and was resurrected. That if Jesus did not die and was not resurrected then their belief would be in vain.

But Paul goes on to state that Christ did die and was resurrected, Paul writes of the many witnesses to this event.
For I delivered to you first of all that which I also received: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, and that He was buried, and that He rose again the third day according to the Scriptures, and that He was seen by Cephas, then by the twelve. After that He was seen by over five hundred brethren at once, of whom the greater part remain to the present, but some have fallen asleep. After that He was seen by James, then by all the apostles. Then last of all He was seen by me also, as by one born out of due time.

Interesting. I never tied "unless you believed in vain" to the discussion that follows it:

12 Now if Christ is preached that He has been raised from the dead, how do some among you say that there is no resurrection of the dead? 13 But if there is no resurrection of the dead, then Christ is not risen. 14 And if Christ is not risen, then our preaching is empty and your faith is also empty. 15 Yes, and we are found false witnesses of God, because we have testified of God that He raised up Christ, whom He did not raise up—if in fact the dead do not rise. 16 For if the dead do not rise, then Christ is not risen. 17 And if Christ is not risen, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins! 18 Then also those who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished. 19 If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men the most pitiable. [The New King James Version (1 Co 15:12–19). (1982). Thomas Nelson.]​

But it makes perfect sense now that you bring it up. Thanks.

 

[d taylor]

Good point. But the doctrinal inertia away from the truth probably didn't start with contratodo.

Interesting. I never tied "unless you believed in vain" to the discussion that follows it:

12 Now if Christ is preached that He has been raised from the dead, how do some among you say that there is no resurrection of the dead? 13 But if there is no resurrection of the dead, then Christ is not risen. 14 And if Christ is not risen, then our preaching is empty and your faith is also empty. 15 Yes, and we are found false witnesses of God, because we have testified of God that He raised up Christ, whom He did not raise up—if in fact the dead do not rise. 16 For if the dead do not rise, then Christ is not risen. 17 And if Christ is not risen, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins! 18 Then also those who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished. 19 If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men the most pitiable. [The New King James Version (1 Co 15:12–19). (1982). Thomas Nelson.]​

But it makes perfect sense now that you bring it up. Thanks.

You are welcome.

That is very correct that contratodo did not start the errors. He or she is just repeating past miss-teachings from some source (church, book, etc..)

This is a little more on 1st Corinthians 15 these articles may provide a little more information.

https://faithalone.org/blog/unless-you-believed-in-vain-1-corinthians-152/

Another Look at 1 Corinthians 15:3-11 – Grace Evangelical Society