VOTE HOW MANY BELIEVE IN A PRE TRIBULATION HOPE/RAPTURE ?

[Jeffrey Bowden]

It's like trying to disprove that pigs can fly. After all, it was only the cow who jumped over the moon and the little pig ran away with the spoon.
You have run away with the out of this world rapture to heaven theory. Just another fairy tale.

Making such statements shows your sad lack of Bible knowledge, Isaiah 66:15 says many will die, Ezekiel 21:3-5 says; the righteous and the wicked alike will die. Jeremiah 25:33 Those whom the Lord has slain on that Day, will lie scattered from one end of the earth to the other.......

Seals 1 to 5 are already in operation. Jesus opened them at His Ascension. Proved by the Christian martyrs since Stephen.

The Trib starts with the opening of seal 1. The Trib will end seven years later. When was seal 1 opened?

What’s the disaster (that isn’t) in the last verses of Rev 6?

Here are Rev 6:15-17 (NIV): Then the kings of the earth, the princes, the generals, the rich, the mighty, and everyone else, both slave and free, hid in caves and among the rocks of the mountains. 16 They called to the mountains and the rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! 17 For the great day of their[wrath has come, and who can withstand it?”

Who would hide from Jesus? Do you recognize that is only the behavior of unbelievers?

Rev 6:10 (ESV): They cried out with a loud voice, “O Sovereign Lord, holy and true, how long before you will judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?”

All who “dwell on the earth” live for the world and all of its sinful practices. They are unbelievers, only.

There are no believers on earth after the Trib starts. There are conversions in the Trib. Those crying out on Rev 6:10 are a perfect example. They see the tremendous error they made in rejecting Jesus. The 144k help these people to commit their lives to Jesus. They are saved, and they are martyred for their testimony of Jesus Christ. They are the first group of the GM (Rev 6:11).

 

[keras]

Read the last verse: 1 Peter 4:19 (NIV); So then, those who suffer according to God’s will should commit themselves to their faithful Creator and continue to do good.

It’s ALL about the daily trials and tribulations of the Christian life.

How much suffering according to God's will have you experienced?
It is obvious that Peter and the hundred + other Prophesies are telling us about a dramatic event, yet to happen. The Sixth Seal.

 

[keras]

The Trib starts with the opening of seal 1. The Trib will end seven years later.

This is quite wrong, We have had the wars, famines, plagues and economic disasters over the last 2000 years. Zechariah 1 & 6 also mention the fiur horsemen, as they were present in ancient times. This is basic history.
The GT will be just 3 1/2 years. Proved by many verses telling us of the 1260 days and 42 months.

Who would hide from Jesus? Do you recognize that is only the behavior of unbelievers?

Believers are told to hide too. Isaiah 26:20-21, Zephaniah 2:3

What’s the disaster (that isn’t) in the last verses of Rev 6?

Denial of the forthcoming test of our faith, is serious error. I post elsewhere about what the Lord will use to literally fulfil His Day of fiery wrath.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

This is quite wrong, We have had the wars, famines, plagues and economic disasters over the last 2000 years. Zechariah 1 & 6 also mention the fiur horsemen, as they were present in ancient times. This is basic history.
The GT will be just 3 1/2 years. Proved by many verses telling us of the 1260 days and 42 months.

Believers are told to hide too. Isaiah 26:20-21, Zephaniah 2:3

Denial of the forthcoming test of our faith, is serious error. I post elsewhere about what the Lord will use to literally fulfil His Day of fiery wrath.

The wars in the past do not compare to the wars all over this planet at the same time, in the 2nd seal. This is the 2nd seal:

Rev 6:4 (NLT): Then another horse appeared, a red one. Its rider was given a mighty sword and the authority to take peace from the earth. And there was war and slaughter everywhere.

This is Zech 1:8-11 (NIV):

8 During the night I had a vision, and there before me was a man mounted on a red horse. He was standing among the myrtle trees in a ravine. Behind him were red, brown and white horses.

9 I asked, “What are these, my lord?”

The angel who was talking with me answered, “I will show you what they are.”

10 Then the man standing among the myrtle trees explained, “They are the ones the Lordhas sent to go throughout the earth.”

11 And they reported to the angel of the Lordwho was standing among the myrtle trees, “We have gone throughout the earth and found the whole world at rest and in peace.”

Verse 8 mentions just one rider and two red horses among the four horses. This does not match the horses and riders in Rev 6. There is only one red horse and there are four riders.

Verse 11 says the world was found “at rest and in peace.” This is the complete opposite of the “conquering” by the first rider in Rev 6:1-2, and the peace taken from the world in the 2nd seal, and 25% of the population being brutally killed in the 4th seal.

There is no match, in many, many ways between Zech 1:8-11 and Rev 6:1-8.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

This is quite wrong, We have had the wars, famines, plagues and economic disasters over the last 2000 years. Zechariah 1 & 6 also mention the fiur horsemen, as they were present in ancient times. This is basic history.
The GT will be just 3 1/2 years. Proved by many verses telling us of the 1260 days and 42 months.

Believers are told to hide too. Isaiah 26:20-21, Zephaniah 2:3

Denial of the forthcoming test of our faith, is serious error. I post elsewhere about what the Lord will use to literally fulfil His Day of fiery wrath.

Your theory that the first five seals have been opened is destroyed by your claims about those horses. One more point: there’s no brown horse in the four horses in the first four seals.

 

[keras]

There is no match, in many, many ways between Zech 1:8-11 and Rev 6:1-8.

Your faulty opinion.
There are many plainly seen similarities and why would God send 2 groups of four horsemen? Small differences in the Prophesies do not abrogate them.
Anyway; Seal Five is open now and the Christian Martyrs have their souls placed under the Altar in heaven.

The wars in the past do not compare to the wars all over this planet at the same time, in the 2nd seal

There HAS been and still continues to be; wars in many places. Only modern society has partially stopped them.
google estimates - 1.64 billion people killed by war since 3000 BC.

Nothing in this helps the 'rapture to heaven' belief. It is false and will never happen.
What I have proved is that God can and will again save and protect His faithful People, as they pass through all that must happen.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

Your faulty opinion.
There are many plainly seen similarities and why would God send 2 groups of four horsemen? Small differences in the Prophesies do not abrogate them.
Anyway; Seal Five is open now and the Christian Martyrs have their souls placed under the Altar in heaven.

There HAS been and still continues to be; wars in many places. Only modern society has partially stopped them.
google estimates - 1.64 billion people killed by war since 3000 BC.

Nothing in this helps the 'rapture to heaven' belief. It is false and will never happen.
What I have proved is that God can and will again save and protect His faithful People, as they pass through all that must happen.

Your theory of seals being already opened is destroyed. Those four horses did not match those in Rev. There are NO brown horses in the first four seals. There are four riders. Those verses I read said there’s only one rider. You can’t equate 1 rider as 4. You can’t equate brown with white, red, gray or black.

There is no match with the number of riders and the colors of the horses. The color of each horse in the first four seals are highlighted. Their color is a big deal. Would you want a brown horse signifying death? No! That’s the purpose of the pale horse in Rev 6:8. No brown horse will fit within any of the first four seals. Your theory is destroyed.

The seals have not been opened. Natural death counts don’t match how the deaths will occur in the first four seals. Where’s the reported death count by folks being torn apart by wild beasts? There will be millions of those in the Trib. Where are those reports?

The Trib is Daniel’s 70th week. A week equals seven years. Do you not know that?

 

[keras]

Your theory of seals being already opened is destroyed. Those four horses did not match those in Rev. There are NO brown horses in the first four seals. There are four riders. Those verses I read said there’s only one rider. You can’t equate 1 rider as 4. You can’t equate brown with white, red, gray or black.

There is no match with the number of riders and the colors of the horses. The color of each horse in the first four seals are highlighted. Their color is a big deal. Would you want a brown horse signifying death? No! That’s the purpose of the pale horse in Rev 6:8. No brown horse will fit within any of the first four seals. Your theory is destroyed.

Using translation differences and Prophesies made thousands of years apart, is not rebuttal, just opinion.
If you believe the Horsemen of Zechariah and of Revelation are different, then explain how their functions are different.

Most Bible scholars say they are the same, they do the work God sets them to do and we see that after Jesus opened those four Seals, their tasks have been accomplished. Almost to the extent, if there had been much worse wars, famines and plagues, mankind would not have survived.

The Trib is Daniel’s 70th week. A week equals seven years. Do you not know that?

Again you are caught out in your lack of Bible knowledge. The 70th week, of seven years, is plainly said the be divided into half. The first half will be peaceful, so it is hardly motioned, but the second half has many references of 1260 days, 42 months. or 3 1/2 years. All of them refer to the final three and a half years before Jesus Returns. It will be during that time when the 7 Trumpets and 7 Bowls of the Great Tribulation will take place.
Culminating in the Seventh Bowl, which will be Armageddon. Rev 16:15-18

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

Your theory that the first five seals have been opened is destroyed by your claims about those horses. One more point: there’s no brown horse in the four horses in the first four seals.

This is quite wrong, We have had the wars, famines, plagues and economic disasters over the last 2000 years. Zechariah 1 & 6 also mention the fiur horsemen, as they were present in ancient times. This is basic history.
The GT will be just 3 1/2 years. Proved by many verses telling us of the 1260 days and 42 months.

Believers are told to hide too. Isaiah 26:20-21, Zephaniah 2:3

Denial of the forthcoming test of our faith, is serious error. I post elsewhere about what the Lord will use to literally fulfil His Day of fiery wrath.

Zechariah 1 does NOT mention FOUR horsemen. It mentions only one.

Here’s Zechariah 6:1-8 (NIV): Again I lifted my eyes and saw, and behold, four chariots came out from between two mountains. And the mountains were mountains of bronze. 2 The first chariot had red horses, the second black horses, 3 the third white horses, and the fourth chariot dappled horses—all of them strong. 4 Then I answered and said to the angel who talked with me, “What are these, my lord?” 5 And the angel answered and said to me, “These are going out to the four winds of heaven, after presenting themselves before the Lord of all the earth. 6 The chariot with the black horses goes toward the north country, the white ones go after them, and the dappled ones go toward the south country.” 7 When the strong horses came out, they were impatient to go and patrol the earth. And he said, “Go, patrol the earth.” So they patrolled the earth. 8 Then he cried to me, “Behold, those who go toward the north country have set my Spirit at rest in the north country.”

So, now you’re saying chariots are part of the four horsemen in the first four seals? And, you’re now saying each horseman controls multiple horses?

Lastly, these multiple horses for each chariot only “patrol the earth.”

The first four seals are not about chariots and patrolling the earth. Zechariah 6 in no way is part of the first four seals.

There are no believers who enter the Trib:

Rev 6:10 (ESV): They cried out with a loud voice, “O Sovereign Lord, holy and true, how long before you will judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?”

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

Using translation differences and Prophesies made thousands of years apart, is not rebuttal, just opinion.
If you believe the Horsemen of Zechariah and of Revelation are different, then explain how their functions are different.

Most Bible scholars say they are the same, they do the work God sets them to do and we see that after Jesus opened those four Seals, their tasks have been accomplished. Almost to the extent, if there had been much worse wars, famines and plagues, mankind would not have survived.

Again you are caught out in your lack of Bible knowledge. The 70th week, of seven years, is plainly said the be divided into half. The first half will be peaceful, so it is hardly motioned, but the second half has many references of 1260 days, 42 months. or 3 1/2 years. All of them refer to the final three and a half years before Jesus Returns. It will be during that time when the 7 Trumpets and 7 Bowls of the Great Tribulation will take place.
Culminating in the Seventh Bowl, which will be Armageddon. Rev 16:15-18

A lack of Bible knowledge is reflected in anyone who claims the first half of the Trib will be peaceful.

Here’s proof of all that peace you believe in starting on day 1 of the Trib:

1 Th 5:1-3 (ESV): Now concerning the times and the seasons, brothers, you have no need to have anything written to you. 2 For you yourselves are fully aware that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. 3 While people are saying, “There is peace and security,” then sudden destruction will come upon them as labor pains come upon a pregnant woman, and they will not escape.

In seal 2, wars break out ALL OVER the planet, like never before: Rev 6:4 (NLT): Then another horse appeared, a red one. Its rider was given a mighty sword and the authority to take peace from the earth. And there was war and slaughter everywhere.

In seal 4, 25% of the world of unbelievers are brutally killed. Rev 6:8 (ESV): And I looked, and behold, a pale horse! And its rider's name was Death, and Hades followed him. And they were given authority over a fourth of the earth, to kill with sword and with famine and with pestilence and by wild beasts of the earth.

Now, that’s peaceful!

 

[keras]

Zechariah 1 does NOT mention FOUR horsemen. It mentions only one.

I assumed you had read your Bible. I was wrong.
Zechariah 1:8-11 AND Zechariah 6:1-8 BOTH mention those four horsemen.
They Spiritually range the earth and their physical effects are all too apparent!

There are no believers who enter the Trib:

You succeed to make yourself look silly; Revelation 12:17 clearly says some Christians will face persecution during the 1260 days of the GT.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

I assumed you had read your Bible. I was wrong.
Zechariah 1:8-11 AND Zechariah 6:1-8 BOTH mention those four horsemen.
They Spiritually range the earth and their physical effects are all too apparent!

You succeed to make yourself look silly; Revelation 12:17 clearly says some Christians will face persecution during the 1260 days of the GT.

There’s only one man mentioned in Zech 1:8. The chariots in Zech 6 are a disqualifier, as no chariots are used, and the number of horses used far exceeds those in the first four seals.

Also, the purposes of the Zech horses are peaceful. The first four seals are full of killing through wars, disease, famine and wild beasts.

There isn’t any significant match between the Zech horses and chariots and the Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse in Rev 6:1-8.

This destroys your theory that the seals 1 - 5 have already been opened. Your claim is also not supported by Daniel’s 70th week; it lasts only seven years.

 

[keras]

Also, the purposes of the Zech horses are peaceful. The first four seals are full of killing through wars, disease, famine and wild beasts.

The four types of Gods helpers on earth were here from the beginning, Zechariah mentions them and Revelation tells how they become empowered to cause mayhem and death during the Christian age. They are not, of course; actual men or horses.
Your unsupported opinions count for nothing.

Thinking the Fifth Seal is not open yet, shows your inability to see how Prophecy can be and is fulfilled. Do you really believe the Christian martyrs have no special treatment from God?

The proof of the Sixth Seal being the next Prophesied event, is in Isaiah 51:2, where Jesus stopped His quote just before 'and a Day of vengeance of our God.
Neither you nor anyone will escape this testing of our faith.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

The four types of Gods helpers on earth were here from the beginning, Zechariah mentions them and Revelation tells how they become empowered to cause mayhem and death during the Christian age. They are not, of course; actual men or horses.
Your unsupported opinions count for nothing.

Thinking the Fifth Seal is not open yet, shows your inability to see how Prophecy can be and is fulfilled. Do you really believe the Christian martyrs have no special treatment from God?

The proof of the Sixth Seal being the next Prophesied event, is in Isaiah 51:2, where Jesus stopped His quote just before 'and a Day of vengeance of our God.
Neither you nor anyone will escape this testing of our faith.

The Zech horses and spirits don’t ever match the Rev horses and riders in any way,

Thr Zech’s are always peaceful and the Rev’s are always destructive. Those are the basic truths that you can’t overcome.

They don’t match so they can’t be the same. Your theory about open seals is destroyed.

 

[keras]

The Zech horses and spirits don’t ever match the Rev horses and riders in any way,

Thr Zech’s are always peaceful and the Rev’s are always destructive. Those are the basic truths that you can’t overcome.

They don’t match so they can’t be the same. Your theory about open seals is destroyed.

Just the fact of there being four of them is sufficient to match them. There won't be 2 different sets of four entities who bring trouble to the earth.
Your theory that the Seals remain unopened as yet, is destroyed by the Fifth Seal, God will give the souls of those people who kept their faith unto death, a special place of honour in heaven.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

The four types of Gods helpers on earth were here from the beginning, Zechariah mentions them and Revelation tells how they become empowered to cause mayhem and death during the Christian age. They are not, of course; actual men or horses.
Your unsupported opinions count for nothing.

Thinking the Fifth Seal is not open yet, shows your inability to see how Prophecy can be and is fulfilled. Do you really believe the Christian martyrs have no special treatment from God?

The proof of the Sixth Seal being the next Prophesied event, is in Isaiah 51:2, where Jesus stopped His quote just before 'and a Day of vengeance of our God.
Neither you nor anyone will escape this testing of our faith.

Isaiah 51:2

Just the fact of there being four of them is sufficient to match them. There won't be 2 different sets of four entities who bring trouble to the earth.
Your theory that the Seals remain unopened as yet, is destroyed by the Fifth Seal, God will give the souls of those people who kept their faith unto death, a special place of honour in heaven.

Those over history who have died in Christ are in Paradise

Just the fact of there being four of them is sufficient to match them. There won't be 2 different sets of four entities who bring trouble to the earth.
Your theory that the Seals remain unopened as yet, is destroyed by the Fifth Seal, God will give the souls of those people who kept their faith unto death, a special place of honour in heaven.

There are seven angels who sound the trumpet judgments, and there are seven angels who pour the bowl judgments. Are they the same seven angels?

There are four “living creatures” at the throne of God. They are the premier worshippers of God Almighty. As the first four seals are opened, each living creature announces one horse and rider. Where is such pomp afforded to the Zech’s?

There isn’t one Rev that drives a chariot. The chariots are exclusive to the Zech’s. There is more than one set of four.

Your theory of the early seals having been opened is destroyed.

 

[Oseas]

Luke 17:28-30-JESUS said:
28Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot;they did eat,they drank,they bought,they sold,they planted,they builded;
29But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven,and destroyed them all.
30Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

What was there or what happened in Sodoma,and Gomorra,and in the neighboring cities? Well,GOD sent two men there.And they said unto Lot,Hast thou here any besides?son in law,and thy sons,and thy daughters,and whatsoever thou hast in the city,bring them out of this place:For we will DESTROY THIS PLACE,because the cry of them is waxen great before the face of the Lord;and the Lord hath SENT US to DESTROY IT-Gen.19:12-13.

And Lot went out,and spake unto his sons in law,which married his daughters,and said, Up, get you out of this place;for the Lord will destroy this city.But he seemed as one that mocked unto his sons in law-Gen.19:14.

Again:Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.Yes, even thus shall it be now,even now,from now on,the difference is that now is sent only one,not two men,and now the order/the command is to DESTROY THE WHOLE WORLD OF THE DEVIL,the process of destruction of the Devil's world is already running,understand?

Do you believe or you are like the sons in law of Lot thinking that I'm moking you?No surprise,if so.JESUS said:even thus will be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.Who is he?Michael-Daniel 12:1-3,Matthew 24:15-25 and 1Thessalonians 4:16.
Get ready

Satan will be cast down into the bottomless pit,and his followers -1Corinthians 6:9-10 and Revelation 21:8-,will be cast into the lake of fire.
Re.20:1-3->1And I saw an angel come down from heaven,having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.And he laid hold on the dragon,that old serpent,which is the Devil,and Satan,and bound him a thousand years...and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more.

 

[keras]

Those over history who have died in Christ are in Paradise

Unbiblical rubbish!
Acts 13:36 tells us the David 'sleeps' in the grave. He and all the dead people since Adam remain unconscious in their graves, They will be called up by the Last Trump, to stand before God in Judgment. Revelation 20:11-15
Paradise is the place where Muslims think they go to. They are wrong and you are wrong.

There are seven angels who sound the trumpet judgments, and there are seven angels who pour the bowl judgments. Are they the same seven angels?

Careful study of Revelation 8:2 and Revelation 1:1, makes that seem likely.
Once the 7 Trumpets are over, the same angels could be the ones to pour out the 7 Bowls.

Your theory of the early seals having been opened is destroyed.

Your biased opinions destroy nothing.

 

[keras]

‘Rapture to heaven’ believers say that people who dispute their theory: just cannot see or understand that belief.

It’s what we don't see in the Bible, where the difference lies. Nowhere does scripture say God intends to take His people to heaven. In fact; Jesus Himself says such a thing is impossible. John 3:13, John 7:34, Revelation 2:25-26, etc.

People who read the whole Bible can establish the truth for themselves - that God's purpose is to have a people who will be His faithful believers, doing His will on earth. THAT is our task and our destiny! But a lot of people don't bother to find out this truth. They listen to teachers and read fictional books that say we can just be good people, churchgoers and tithers and God will remove them to heaven. They are told this fantastic event will happen before any judgement or testing of their faith. They are told it is the Jewish people who must face tribulation, not them.

This scenario is not found anywhere in the Bible. It is made up from assumptions and making scriptures mean something they do not. For instance, John 14:1-3 which is a prophecy about the new heavens and earth that comes down after the Millennium. Revelation 21:1-7

So the 'rapture to heaven' believers will never convince anyone who seriously reads their Bible. The lazy people who accept doctrines from anywhere, except the Bible, are deceived and because they choose to believe lies, the Lord has locked them into their delusions. Isaiah 29:9-12, and stopped their ears to the truth; 2 Timothy 4:4

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

Unbiblical rubbish!
Acts 13:36 tells us the David 'sleeps' in the grave. He and all the dead people since Adam remain unconscious in their graves, They will be called up by the Last Trump, to stand before God in Judgment. Revelation 20:11-15
Paradise is the place where Muslims think they go to. They are wrong and you are wrong.

Careful study of Revelation 8:2 and Revelation 1:1, makes that seem likely.
Once the 7 Trumpets are over, the same angels could be the ones to pour out the 7 Bowls.

Your biased opinions destroy nothing.

Unbiblical rubbish!
Acts 13:36 tells us the David 'sleeps' in the grave. He and all the dead people since Adam remain unconscious in their graves, They will be called up by the Last Trump, to stand before God in Judgment. Revelation 20:11-15
Paradise is the place where Muslims think they go to. They are wrong and you are wrong.

Careful study of Revelation 8:2 and Revelation 1:1, makes that seem likely.
Once the 7 Trumpets are over, the same angels could be the ones to pour out the 7 Bowls.

Your biased opinions destroy nothing.

The words of Jesus: Luke 24:43 (ESV): And he said to him, “Truly, I say to you, today you will be with me in paradise.”

When Jesus died, and when that thief died, they both went to paradise. Paradise is real, because Jesus said so.

Luke 16:22-23 (ESV): The poor man died and was carried by the angels to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried, 23 and in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham far off and Lazarus at his side.

Upon death, Jesus and the thief went to paradise. Upon death, Lazarus was carried by the angels to Abraham's side. Upon death, the rich man went to Hades. Paradise is to Heaven, what Hades is to Hell. Rev 20:14 (ESV): Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. ——- Hades is thrown into the lake of fire. This occurs after the GWTJ. —— 1 Th 4:14 says God will bring with Him those who have died in Christ. That occurs upon the next return of Jesus Christ for the pre-Trib rapture, in exclusive alignment with Acts 1:11.

All you say is those seven angels
could be the ones to pour out the 7 Bowls. They could also NOT BE the ones to pour out the 7 Bowls. Therefore, four of the Rev’s might be four different horses.

The Rev’s are substantially different compared to the Zech’s. The red Zech is not the bright red Rev. The Zech’s have no pale gray horse, whereas the Rev’s do. The Rev’s are introduced by the four living creatures, and the Zech’s are not. There’s too much unlike between these horses to even think they’re the same.

You go by the mere count of four horses. That’s not even valid because the Zech chariots are pulled by teams of horses. There are no chariots associated with the Rev’s. Your count of four therefore can’t even apply.

Lastly, the only purpose of the Zech’s is to patrol the earth and report to God. They are entirely peaceful. The Rev’s kill literally billions of people in brutal ways.

Your theory of the seals being open is destroyed.