VOTE HOW MANY BELIEVE IN A PRE TRIBULATION HOPE/RAPTURE ?

[Jeffrey Bowden]

It's like trying to disprove that pigs can fly. After all, it was only the cow who jumped over the moon and the little pig ran away with the spoon.
You have run away with the out of this world rapture to heaven theory. Just another fairy tale.

Making such statements shows your sad lack of Bible knowledge, Isaiah 66:15 says many will die, Ezekiel 21:3-5 says; the righteous and the wicked alike will die. Jeremiah 25:33 Those whom the Lord has slain on that Day, will lie scattered from one end of the earth to the other.......

Seals 1 to 5 are already in operation. Jesus opened them at His Ascension. Proved by the Christian martyrs since Stephen.

The Trib starts with the opening of seal 1. The Trib will end seven years later. When was seal 1 opened?

What’s the disaster (that isn’t) in the last verses of Rev 6?

Here are Rev 6:15-17 (NIV): Then the kings of the earth, the princes, the generals, the rich, the mighty, and everyone else, both slave and free, hid in caves and among the rocks of the mountains. 16 They called to the mountains and the rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! 17 For the great day of their[wrath has come, and who can withstand it?”

Who would hide from Jesus? Do you recognize that is only the behavior of unbelievers?

Rev 6:10 (ESV): They cried out with a loud voice, “O Sovereign Lord, holy and true, how long before you will judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?”

All who “dwell on the earth” live for the world and all of its sinful practices. They are unbelievers, only.

There are no believers on earth after the Trib starts. There are conversions in the Trib. Those crying out on Rev 6:10 are a perfect example. They see the tremendous error they made in rejecting Jesus. The 144k help these people to commit their lives to Jesus. They are saved, and they are martyred for their testimony of Jesus Christ. They are the first group of the GM (Rev 6:11).

 

[keras]

Read the last verse: 1 Peter 4:19 (NIV); So then, those who suffer according to God’s will should commit themselves to their faithful Creator and continue to do good.

It’s ALL about the daily trials and tribulations of the Christian life.

How much suffering according to God's will have you experienced?
It is obvious that Peter and the hundred + other Prophesies are telling us about a dramatic event, yet to happen. The Sixth Seal.

 

[keras]

The Trib starts with the opening of seal 1. The Trib will end seven years later.

This is quite wrong, We have had the wars, famines, plagues and economic disasters over the last 2000 years. Zechariah 1 & 6 also mention the fiur horsemen, as they were present in ancient times. This is basic history.
The GT will be just 3 1/2 years. Proved by many verses telling us of the 1260 days and 42 months.

Who would hide from Jesus? Do you recognize that is only the behavior of unbelievers?

Believers are told to hide too. Isaiah 26:20-21, Zephaniah 2:3

What’s the disaster (that isn’t) in the last verses of Rev 6?

Denial of the forthcoming test of our faith, is serious error. I post elsewhere about what the Lord will use to literally fulfil His Day of fiery wrath.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

This is quite wrong, We have had the wars, famines, plagues and economic disasters over the last 2000 years. Zechariah 1 & 6 also mention the fiur horsemen, as they were present in ancient times. This is basic history.
The GT will be just 3 1/2 years. Proved by many verses telling us of the 1260 days and 42 months.

Believers are told to hide too. Isaiah 26:20-21, Zephaniah 2:3

Denial of the forthcoming test of our faith, is serious error. I post elsewhere about what the Lord will use to literally fulfil His Day of fiery wrath.

The wars in the past do not compare to the wars all over this planet at the same time, in the 2nd seal. This is the 2nd seal:

Rev 6:4 (NLT): Then another horse appeared, a red one. Its rider was given a mighty sword and the authority to take peace from the earth. And there was war and slaughter everywhere.

This is Zech 1:8-11 (NIV):

8 During the night I had a vision, and there before me was a man mounted on a red horse. He was standing among the myrtle trees in a ravine. Behind him were red, brown and white horses.

9 I asked, “What are these, my lord?”

The angel who was talking with me answered, “I will show you what they are.”

10 Then the man standing among the myrtle trees explained, “They are the ones the Lordhas sent to go throughout the earth.”

11 And they reported to the angel of the Lordwho was standing among the myrtle trees, “We have gone throughout the earth and found the whole world at rest and in peace.”

Verse 8 mentions just one rider and two red horses among the four horses. This does not match the horses and riders in Rev 6. There is only one red horse and there are four riders.

Verse 11 says the world was found “at rest and in peace.” This is the complete opposite of the “conquering” by the first rider in Rev 6:1-2, and the peace taken from the world in the 2nd seal, and 25% of the population being brutally killed in the 4th seal.

There is no match, in many, many ways between Zech 1:8-11 and Rev 6:1-8.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

This is quite wrong, We have had the wars, famines, plagues and economic disasters over the last 2000 years. Zechariah 1 & 6 also mention the fiur horsemen, as they were present in ancient times. This is basic history.
The GT will be just 3 1/2 years. Proved by many verses telling us of the 1260 days and 42 months.

Believers are told to hide too. Isaiah 26:20-21, Zephaniah 2:3

Denial of the forthcoming test of our faith, is serious error. I post elsewhere about what the Lord will use to literally fulfil His Day of fiery wrath.

Your theory that the first five seals have been opened is destroyed by your claims about those horses. One more point: there’s no brown horse in the four horses in the first four seals.

 

[keras]

There is no match, in many, many ways between Zech 1:8-11 and Rev 6:1-8.

Your faulty opinion.
There are many plainly seen similarities and why would God send 2 groups of four horsemen? Small differences in the Prophesies do not abrogate them.
Anyway; Seal Five is open now and the Christian Martyrs have their souls placed under the Altar in heaven.

The wars in the past do not compare to the wars all over this planet at the same time, in the 2nd seal

There HAS been and still continues to be; wars in many places. Only modern society has partially stopped them.
google estimates - 1.64 billion people killed by war since 3000 BC.

Nothing in this helps the 'rapture to heaven' belief. It is false and will never happen.
What I have proved is that God can and will again save and protect His faithful People, as they pass through all that must happen.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

Your faulty opinion.
There are many plainly seen similarities and why would God send 2 groups of four horsemen? Small differences in the Prophesies do not abrogate them.
Anyway; Seal Five is open now and the Christian Martyrs have their souls placed under the Altar in heaven.

There HAS been and still continues to be; wars in many places. Only modern society has partially stopped them.
google estimates - 1.64 billion people killed by war since 3000 BC.

Nothing in this helps the 'rapture to heaven' belief. It is false and will never happen.
What I have proved is that God can and will again save and protect His faithful People, as they pass through all that must happen.

Your theory of seals being already opened is destroyed. Those four horses did not match those in Rev. There are NO brown horses in the first four seals. There are four riders. Those verses I read said there’s only one rider. You can’t equate 1 rider as 4. You can’t equate brown with white, red, gray or black.

There is no match with the number of riders and the colors of the horses. The color of each horse in the first four seals are highlighted. Their color is a big deal. Would you want a brown horse signifying death? No! That’s the purpose of the pale horse in Rev 6:8. No brown horse will fit within any of the first four seals. Your theory is destroyed.

The seals have not been opened. Natural death counts don’t match how the deaths will occur in the first four seals. Where’s the reported death count by folks being torn apart by wild beasts? There will be millions of those in the Trib. Where are those reports?

The Trib is Daniel’s 70th week. A week equals seven years. Do you not know that?

 

[keras]

Your theory of seals being already opened is destroyed. Those four horses did not match those in Rev. There are NO brown horses in the first four seals. There are four riders. Those verses I read said there’s only one rider. You can’t equate 1 rider as 4. You can’t equate brown with white, red, gray or black.

There is no match with the number of riders and the colors of the horses. The color of each horse in the first four seals are highlighted. Their color is a big deal. Would you want a brown horse signifying death? No! That’s the purpose of the pale horse in Rev 6:8. No brown horse will fit within any of the first four seals. Your theory is destroyed.

Using translation differences and Prophesies made thousands of years apart, is not rebuttal, just opinion.
If you believe the Horsemen of Zechariah and of Revelation are different, then explain how their functions are different.

Most Bible scholars say they are the same, they do the work God sets them to do and we see that after Jesus opened those four Seals, their tasks have been accomplished. Almost to the extent, if there had been much worse wars, famines and plagues, mankind would not have survived.

The Trib is Daniel’s 70th week. A week equals seven years. Do you not know that?

Again you are caught out in your lack of Bible knowledge. The 70th week, of seven years, is plainly said the be divided into half. The first half will be peaceful, so it is hardly motioned, but the second half has many references of 1260 days, 42 months. or 3 1/2 years. All of them refer to the final three and a half years before Jesus Returns. It will be during that time when the 7 Trumpets and 7 Bowls of the Great Tribulation will take place.
Culminating in the Seventh Bowl, which will be Armageddon. Rev 16:15-18

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

Your theory that the first five seals have been opened is destroyed by your claims about those horses. One more point: there’s no brown horse in the four horses in the first four seals.

This is quite wrong, We have had the wars, famines, plagues and economic disasters over the last 2000 years. Zechariah 1 & 6 also mention the fiur horsemen, as they were present in ancient times. This is basic history.
The GT will be just 3 1/2 years. Proved by many verses telling us of the 1260 days and 42 months.

Believers are told to hide too. Isaiah 26:20-21, Zephaniah 2:3

Denial of the forthcoming test of our faith, is serious error. I post elsewhere about what the Lord will use to literally fulfil His Day of fiery wrath.

Zechariah 1 does NOT mention FOUR horsemen. It mentions only one.

Here’s Zechariah 6:1-8 (NIV): Again I lifted my eyes and saw, and behold, four chariots came out from between two mountains. And the mountains were mountains of bronze. 2 The first chariot had red horses, the second black horses, 3 the third white horses, and the fourth chariot dappled horses—all of them strong. 4 Then I answered and said to the angel who talked with me, “What are these, my lord?” 5 And the angel answered and said to me, “These are going out to the four winds of heaven, after presenting themselves before the Lord of all the earth. 6 The chariot with the black horses goes toward the north country, the white ones go after them, and the dappled ones go toward the south country.” 7 When the strong horses came out, they were impatient to go and patrol the earth. And he said, “Go, patrol the earth.” So they patrolled the earth. 8 Then he cried to me, “Behold, those who go toward the north country have set my Spirit at rest in the north country.”

So, now you’re saying chariots are part of the four horsemen in the first four seals? And, you’re now saying each horseman controls multiple horses?

Lastly, these multiple horses for each chariot only “patrol the earth.”

The first four seals are not about chariots and patrolling the earth. Zechariah 6 in no way is part of the first four seals.

There are no believers who enter the Trib:

Rev 6:10 (ESV): They cried out with a loud voice, “O Sovereign Lord, holy and true, how long before you will judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?”

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

Using translation differences and Prophesies made thousands of years apart, is not rebuttal, just opinion.
If you believe the Horsemen of Zechariah and of Revelation are different, then explain how their functions are different.

Most Bible scholars say they are the same, they do the work God sets them to do and we see that after Jesus opened those four Seals, their tasks have been accomplished. Almost to the extent, if there had been much worse wars, famines and plagues, mankind would not have survived.

Again you are caught out in your lack of Bible knowledge. The 70th week, of seven years, is plainly said the be divided into half. The first half will be peaceful, so it is hardly motioned, but the second half has many references of 1260 days, 42 months. or 3 1/2 years. All of them refer to the final three and a half years before Jesus Returns. It will be during that time when the 7 Trumpets and 7 Bowls of the Great Tribulation will take place.
Culminating in the Seventh Bowl, which will be Armageddon. Rev 16:15-18

A lack of Bible knowledge is reflected in anyone who claims the first half of the Trib will be peaceful.

Here’s proof of all that peace you believe in starting on day 1 of the Trib:

1 Th 5:1-3 (ESV): Now concerning the times and the seasons, brothers, you have no need to have anything written to you. 2 For you yourselves are fully aware that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. 3 While people are saying, “There is peace and security,” then sudden destruction will come upon them as labor pains come upon a pregnant woman, and they will not escape.

In seal 2, wars break out ALL OVER the planet, like never before: Rev 6:4 (NLT): Then another horse appeared, a red one. Its rider was given a mighty sword and the authority to take peace from the earth. And there was war and slaughter everywhere.

In seal 4, 25% of the world of unbelievers are brutally killed. Rev 6:8 (ESV): And I looked, and behold, a pale horse! And its rider's name was Death, and Hades followed him. And they were given authority over a fourth of the earth, to kill with sword and with famine and with pestilence and by wild beasts of the earth.

Now, that’s peaceful!

 

[keras]

Zechariah 1 does NOT mention FOUR horsemen. It mentions only one.

I assumed you had read your Bible. I was wrong.
Zechariah 1:8-11 AND Zechariah 6:1-8 BOTH mention those four horsemen.
They Spiritually range the earth and their physical effects are all too apparent!

There are no believers who enter the Trib:

You succeed to make yourself look silly; Revelation 12:17 clearly says some Christians will face persecution during the 1260 days of the GT.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

I assumed you had read your Bible. I was wrong.
Zechariah 1:8-11 AND Zechariah 6:1-8 BOTH mention those four horsemen.
They Spiritually range the earth and their physical effects are all too apparent!

You succeed to make yourself look silly; Revelation 12:17 clearly says some Christians will face persecution during the 1260 days of the GT.

There’s only one man mentioned in Zech 1:8. The chariots in Zech 6 are a disqualifier, as no chariots are used, and the number of horses used far exceeds those in the first four seals.

Also, the purposes of the Zech horses are peaceful. The first four seals are full of killing through wars, disease, famine and wild beasts.

There isn’t any significant match between the Zech horses and chariots and the Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse in Rev 6:1-8.

This destroys your theory that the seals 1 - 5 have already been opened. Your claim is also not supported by Daniel’s 70th week; it lasts only seven years.

 

[keras]

Also, the purposes of the Zech horses are peaceful. The first four seals are full of killing through wars, disease, famine and wild beasts.

The four types of Gods helpers on earth were here from the beginning, Zechariah mentions them and Revelation tells how they become empowered to cause mayhem and death during the Christian age. They are not, of course; actual men or horses.
Your unsupported opinions count for nothing.

Thinking the Fifth Seal is not open yet, shows your inability to see how Prophecy can be and is fulfilled. Do you really believe the Christian martyrs have no special treatment from God?

The proof of the Sixth Seal being the next Prophesied event, is in Isaiah 51:2, where Jesus stopped His quote just before 'and a Day of vengeance of our God.
Neither you nor anyone will escape this testing of our faith.