Free will and determinism

Bradskii

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Do you accept that it is unproveable?
Most definitely. But it can certainly be disproved.

Edit: That is, it cannot be proved that everything is or has been determinate. But it can be proved that determinism exists regarding any given event. For example, breaking the guitar string was one of the causes of me eating the croissant.
 
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zippy2006

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Edit: That is, it cannot be proved that everything is or has been determinate. But it can be proved that determinism exists regarding any given event. For example, breaking the guitar string was one of the causes of me eating the croissant.

What almost always happens in laymen's proposals for determinism is that causality is conflated with determinism, and presumably that is what is happening here. The erroneous assumption is, "Causality exists, therefore determinism is true."

To affirm that plucking a guitar string produces sound shows a causal relation between the plucking and the sound; it does nothing to show determinism.
 
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Bradskii

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To affirm that plucking a guitar string produces sound shows a causal relation between the plucking and the sound; it does nothing to show determinism.
I think we did this. I'm using determinism in this rather obvious sense:

Determinism is the philosophical view that all events in the universe, including human decisions and actions, are causally inevitable.

And from Stanford:

'Causal determinism is, roughly speaking, the idea that every event is necessitated by antecedent events and conditions together with the laws of nature.'
 
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zippy2006

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I think we did this. I'm using determinism in this rather obvious sense:

Determinism is the philosophical view that all events in the universe, including human decisions and actions, are causally inevitable.

And from Stanford:

'Causal determinism is, roughly speaking, the idea that every event is necessitated by antecedent events and conditions together with the laws of nature.'
And as @2PhiloVoid already pointed out, to determine that something was causally inevitable would require that we "[could] account for all of the factors in a given scenario."

It's like we say, "If every brick in this house is red, then the house will be red," and you come along and say, "I found a red brick; therefore the house is red." Then, instead of admitting your non sequitur, you say, "Well, show me a brick that has no color at all and I will concede that the house is not red!" And then I point out that you don't even understand the opposed position. Then we rinse and repeat for all eternity.
 
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Bradskii

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And as @2PhiloVoid already pointed out, to determine that something was causally inevitable would require that we "[could] account for all of the factors in a given scenario."
That's simply not true. Back to the guitar string...

There is a direct connection between that happening and what I had for breakfast. I broke the string, I needed to buy another, there is a guitar shop 15 minutes away, I went there, I passed a baker and I bought a croissant. There is a direct connection. The one was the cause of the other. But obviously not the only cause.

There are, as I said, an infinite number of events that needed to happen for me to end up eating a croissant. I picked up the phone in a pub in London in 1982 just at the right moment when a particular agent answered and had a job available for which I was accepted and then met a guy with whom I became friends and he, through various events happening just as they did, got a job overseas and I used the same agent as he did, worked at the same company, met another guy from Australia, visited him there in '84, decided to emigrate, ended up living where I am now and...ended up eating a croissant for breakfast last week.

If none of those events, and countless other ones, had happened then I wouldn't have had that breakfast. We cannot possibly know all of them. But we can draw a line between a lot of the events in our past that determined the present. And from that we can see that all events are determined. Because we literally can't find any that are not.
It's like we say, "If every brick in this house is red, then the house will be red," and you come along and say, "I found in a red brick; therefore the house is red."
I'm not saying that I have found a single example of deterministic behaviour and that therefore proves determinism. I'm saying that wherever I look all I see is cause and effect. I see nothing but that. No-one has ever shown anything to the contrary. In your analogy I'm not looking at a red brick. I'm looking at an actual house made of red bricks. I've walked around it, examined it, checked it out from all angles. It's nothing but red bricks.

Can I prove there's one that isn't? Well, there may be one tucked in a corner that perhaps isn't, but I can't find it. So no, I won't say it's a proven fact that they're all red. But if you know where there's one that isn't then please show me. Otherwise...it's a red brick house.
 
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zippy2006

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That's simply not true. Back to the guitar string...

There is a direct connection between that happening and what I had for breakfast. I broke the string, I needed to buy another, there is a guitar shop 15 minutes away, I went there, I passed a baker and I bought a croissant. There is a direct connection. The one was the cause of the other. But obviously not the only cause.

There are, as I said, an infinite number of events that needed to happen for me to end up eating a croissant. I picked up the phone in a pub in London in 1982 just at the right moment when a particular agent answered and had a job available for which I was accepted and then met a guy with whom I became friends and he, through various events happening just as they did, got a job overseas and I used the same agent as he did, worked at the same company, met another guy from Australia, visited him there in '84, decided to emigrate, ended up living where I am now and...ended up eating a croissant for breakfast last week.

If none of those events, and countless other ones, had happened then I wouldn't have had that breakfast. We cannot possibly know all of them. But we can draw a line between a lot of the events in our past that determined the present. And from that we can see that all events are determined. Because we literally can't find any that are not.
There is nothing about this account which makes the croissant inevitable, and this is why your reasoning is non sequitur.

I'm not saying that I have found a single example of deterministic behaviour and that therefore proves determinism. I'm saying that wherever I look all I see is cause and effect. I see nothing but that. No-one has ever shown anything to the contrary. In your analogy I'm not looking at a red brick. I'm looking at an actual house made of red bricks. I've walked around it, examined it, checked it out from all angles. It's nothing but red bricks.

Can I prove there's one that isn't? Well, there may be one tucked in a corner that perhaps isn't, but I can't find it. So no, I won't say it's a proven fact that they're not all red. But if you know where there's one that isn't then please show me. Otherwise...it's a red brick house.
Most people are capable of seeing thousands of free actions occurring every day of their life. You yourself claimed that everyone "automatically" holds that free will exists (link). It is no accident that we automatically hold that free will exists. It is because we are inundated with a world of free acts, and to explain away all of these free acts would require a remarkable display of mental gymnastics. To accept free will is to accept the obvious.
 
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Bradskii

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There is nothing about this account which makes the croissant inevitable, and this is why your reasoning is non sequitur.
Not in advance. I've already stated that. The possible permutations as regards the effect of any given event are effectively infinite. But we aren't discussing predictability. A chaotic event is, by definition, not predictable. But it is most definitely determinate.
Most people are capable of seeing thousands of free actions occurring every day of their life.
Again, this is nothing more than 'free will exists, look - I can raise my arm'. Yes, we all feel like it exists. We all feel that the decisions we make are made with free will. It's an emotional feeling that is extraordinarily difficult to override. But if determinism is true, it cannot exist.

Let me know when you find that brick.
 
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zippy2006

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Not in advance. I've already stated that. The possible permutations as regards the effect of any given event are effectively infinite. But we aren't discussing predictability. A chaotic event is, by definition, not predictable. But it is most definitely determinate.
No, a chaotic event is not determinate. The determinist in his folly must reject much more than free will. He must reject chaos, probability, chance, rarity, spontaneity, luck, hope, and anger. The good philosopher can see that what is rejected is contingency itself, along with everything that entails (including truth and falsity).

Usually when someone embraces one idea to the exclusion of all others we give them a psychological diagnosis. Determinism is not any less insane, it is just a bit more commonplace, and were someone to begin to act on their deterministic beliefs we would give them a diagnosis before locking them up.

Again, this is nothing more than 'free will exists, look - I can raise my arm'. Yes, we all feel like it exists. We all feel that the decisions we make are made with free will. It's an emotional feeling that is extraordinarily difficult to override. But if determinism is true, it cannot exist.
No, my boy, the ability to raise your arm is not an emotional feeling. Anyone who has read a Philosophy 101 book knows at least this much. Again, I would suggest thinking on more mundane things if you don't even know this much.

Let me know when you find that brick.
Let me know when you read that book.
 
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childeye 2

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All decisions we make are determined by existing and prior influences. There has been an effectively infinite chain of events which has resulted in me sitting here writing this sentence. They have all led to this point. From the major events - I was born at a specific time and place, to the minor ones - it's raining today, to the seemingly inconsequential - I broke a string on my guitar last night.

There is no way that existence cannot be described other than determined.

The question is then not whether we make decisions that affect the trajectory of future events - I obviously decided to do this rather than something else. But if free will is defined as the ability to make decisions that are not determined by prior events and we could rerun the last hour exactly as it happened and make a different decision, then something actually needs to be different. But rerunning it exactly as it happened means that nothing is different.

So free will cannot be compatible with determinism. And if existence is deterministic then free will is an illusion.
In my view, the terminology "free will" never gets qualified in these discussions. What exactly the will is supposedly free from is never defined and the term just morphs from one nuance of freedom to another essentially becoming an equivocation in reasoning. Anyway, it's not reasonable that the term "free will" can ever mean a true opposite to determinism (a will free from determinism). And this is why I think compatibility will appear philosophically plausible to many.

So, as I see it, in Christian theology the Eternal power is the Spirit of an incorruptible Love. Determinism is therefore the inevitable revelation of the True Image of God with that being the ultimate cause and purpose for existence. Therefore, the topic of determinism is strictly a moral/immoral issue where the will is either going to be more subject to morality (free from unrighteousness), or more subject to immorality (free from righteousness), according to an ignorance and knowledge of God (carnal mind vs spiritual mind).
 
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Bradskii

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No, a chaotic event is not determinate. The determinist in his folly must reject much more than free will. He must reject chaos, probability, chance, rarity, spontaneity, luck, hope, and anger.
None of those have been discounted. Chaos is an accepted concept. Probability is not affected in any way. It serves as a means to combat unpredictability. Chance is the same thing. Rarity is neither here nor there. Spontaneity doesn't mean 'without reason' unless it's random. Luck? Seriously? That's just an event that was caused by something other that one's own determination. Hope? Why does determinism stop you hoping? It's just a desire that events will turn out as you'd wish. And anger? Well, this is automatic. It would be nice if we could temper it with a realisation that we can't control some events - and neither can others.
Usually when someone embraces one idea to the exclusion of all others we give them a psychological diagnosis.
All I'm excluding is free will.
No, my boy, the ability to raise your arm is not an emotional feeling.
I didn't say it was. You'd be better off attending to what I actually say. I said that there is an emotional attachment to free will. Exhibited by making a decision (raising one's arm) and declaring that it must therefore exist.

It's something of a rarity for anyone to directly address this, but I really do want you to address that missing brick, though. I just want one event from the infinite number you can choose from. You can even make one up if you like. The probability is low, so maybe there's not much of a chance that you'll spontaneously give me one. I may get lucky, but I won't be angry if you don't. More frustrated.
 
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Bradskii

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Therefore, the topic of determinism is strictly a moral/immoral issue where the will is either going to be more subject to morality (free from unrighteousness), or more subject to immorality (free from righteousness), according to the ignorance and knowledge of God (carnal mind vs spiritual mind).
One still makes decisions. Moral and immoral ones. Unless one has a serious impairment, then we will always understand that what we do is considered good or bad. Someone who breaks into your house knows it's wrong. He just decides that he'll do it anyway. The problem is how we view his decision and what determined that he should make it.
 
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Bradskii

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No, a chaotic event is not determinate.
Incidentally:

'Chaos theory is an interdisciplinary area of scientific study and branch of mathematics. It focuses on underlying patterns and deterministic laws of dynamical systems that are highly sensitive to initial conditions. ' Chaos theory - Wikipedia

And:

'The definition of deterministic chaos implies that our prediction in the form of a model, for instance, is very sensitive to the initial conditions. The difference between predictions with slightly different initial conditions grows exponentially...a slight change in the initial condition could have a vast impact on the outcome' https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/earth-and-planetary-sciences/chaos-theory

My having that croissant was part of a chaotic system where, as I already explained, a tiny change in a sequence of events can have far reaching consequences. Pick the phone up in that London pub a few seconds later and my life changes completely. Sliding doors...
 
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childeye 2

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One still makes decisions. Moral and immoral ones. Unless one has a serious impairment, then we will always understand that what we do is considered good or bad. Someone who breaks into your house knows it's wrong. He just decides that he'll do it anyway. The problem is how we view his decision and what determined that he should make it.
In the moral/immoral paradigm, we make decisions because we have to share a planet. Knowing right from wrong is not the same as caring and not caring how our actions affect others. So, since we are subject to higher powers, that still qualifies as determinism. Energy has positive/negative aspects in a cycle. Fundamentally we reason upon good/bad. Pain/pleasure is a subset.
 
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Bradskii

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Here's an interesting paper on the matter which argues against any changes in the justice system.
I've read it and here are a few quotes from it and my views on them.

'According to Frankfurt, an agent is “free” if he wants what he wants, such that his lower-order desires correspond to higher-order volitions (e.g., Frankfurt, 1988). For others (Descartes, Berkeley, Kant), free will requires that an agent can genuinely escape the causal necessity of a deterministic world.'

I'm with Descartes et al.

'Having outlined these precautions, we can now turn to the debate on responsibility, which is distinct from free will and practical in nature. In other words, criminal responsibility is not founded in free will but on practical, subjective and political considerations.5 As such, it is impervious to any truth about determinisms.'

I tend to agree. The concept of responsibility remains. We can still hold someone as being responsible for her actions in the usual and practical sense of that term. We can't avoid that. But how we determine the degree of culpability can change.

'...criminal responsibility relies mostly on our subjective experience, the impression of being able to choose to act or avoid acting.'

It is indeed an impression.

'As long as the illusion of free will remains intact, even if it is an illusion, we can claim to be responsible.'

Again, even in a paper that argues that there's no need to allow for a lack of free will in the justice system, there is an acceptance of it as being an illusion.

'S. J. Morse reaffirmed the Humean argument to defeat naively enthusiastic scientific claims in courtrooms. In his famous article “Brain overclaim syndrome and responsibility: a diagnostic note” (Morse, 2006), he recalls the behavioral, as opposed to cerebral, criteria for responsibility and insists on the incapacity of brain imaging to set the threshold of normality vs. abnormality either in ethics or in law. “Brains are not responsible. Acting people are”. Hence, explaining the difference in behaviors between a teenager and an adult by the lack of complete myelinization of cortical neurons as in Roper v. Simmons (2005)10, and inferring as a result the lack of sufficient responsibility to qualify for the death penalty, is simply irrelevant.'

Dualism at work. Brains are different to people. At what point does the lack of a fully functional pre frontal cortex make a difference to our determination of personal responsibility?

'The common intuition about our agency reverses the onus of proof: it’s up to neuroscience to convince us that we don’t have it.'

I'll just note that they didn't say 'the fact about our agency...'. Rather 'the intuition...'

'Early life experiences are rarely taken into account when screening and recruiting participants; yet parenting and socio-economic status (SES) have effects on brain areas such as the amygdala and prefrontal cortex, whose dysfunction has been linked to a variety of legally relevant outcomes such as crime and violence, drug use, and reduced cognitive control.'

This was meant to be an argument against brain scans which might predict the possibility of unsocial acts. But in doing so they admit to the very causes that they are trying to suggest we ignore.

'Being a kleptomaniac is not sufficient grounds for being exonerated from stealing because criminal law considers that a kleptomaniac still knows that what he or she is doing and that stealing is wrong. '

It's not that he doesn't know. It's that he knows but cannot prevent himself.

'However, we can object that numerous drug addicts report knowing that what they do is wrong. They do not showcase a troubled reason that would not dissociate right from wrong.'

Again, it's only in the most extreme of examples that an individual cannot tell right from wrong.

'Nonetheless, cognitive biases indicate other avenues than the revision of the reasonable person standard, such as training for judges and juries. These could be useful to warn the latter about potential biases in their judgment and that of others. A famous, but controversial, example is a study supposedly showing that judges render harsher decisions when they’re hungry.'

Now we're heading in the right direction. Although there is some debate as to whether that particular example was as accurate as it could have been. But we've already seen that blood sugar levels can most definitely result in anti social behaviour.

And if anyone is interested, the original paper by Sapolski that brought up the subject to which the paper quoted above was partly in response.

Sapolski: The frontal cortex and the criminal justice system.
 
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childeye 2

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I've read it and here are a few quotes from it and my views on them.

'According to Frankfurt, an agent is “free” if he wants what he wants, such that his lower-order desires correspond to higher-order volitions (e.g., Frankfurt, 1988). For others (Descartes, Berkeley, Kant), free will requires that an agent can genuinely escape the causal necessity of a deterministic world.'
I'm with Descartes et al.

'Having outlined these precautions, we can now turn to the debate on responsibility, which is distinct from free will and practical in nature. In other words, criminal responsibility is not founded in free will but on practical, subjective and political considerations.5 As such, it is impervious to any truth about determinisms.'

I tend to agree. The concept of responsibility remains. We can still hold someone as being responsible for her actions in the usual and practical sense of that term. We can't avoid that. But how we determine the degree of culpability can change.

'...criminal responsibility relies mostly on our subjective experience, the impression of being able to choose to act or avoid acting.'

It is indeed an impression.

'As long as the illusion of free will remains intact, even if it is an illusion, we can claim to be responsible.'

Again, even in a paper that argues that there's no need to allow for a lack of free will in the justice system, there is an acceptance of it as being an illusion.

'S. J. Morse reaffirmed the Humean argument to defeat naively enthusiastic scientific claims in courtrooms. In his famous article “Brain overclaim syndrome and responsibility: a diagnostic note” (Morse, 2006), he recalls the behavioral, as opposed to cerebral, criteria for responsibility and insists on the incapacity of brain imaging to set the threshold of normality vs. abnormality either in ethics or in law. “Brains are not responsible. Acting people are”. Hence, explaining the difference in behaviors between a teenager and an adult by the lack of complete myelinization of cortical neurons as in Roper v. Simmons (2005)10, and inferring as a result the lack of sufficient responsibility to qualify for the death penalty, is simply irrelevant.'

Dualism at work. Brains are different to people. At what point does the lack of a fully functional pre frontal cortex make a difference to our determination of personal responsibility?

'The common intuition about our agency reverses the onus of proof: it’s up to neuroscience to convince us that we don’t have it.'

I'll just note that they didn't say 'the fact about our agency...'. Rather 'the intuition...'

'Early life experiences are rarely taken into account when screening and recruiting participants; yet parenting and socio-economic status (SES) have effects on brain areas such as the amygdala and prefrontal cortex, whose dysfunction has been linked to a variety of legally relevant outcomes such as crime and violence, drug use, and reduced cognitive control.'

This was meant to be an argument against brain scans which might predict the possibility of unsocial acts. But in doing so they admit to the very causes that they are trying to suggest we ignore.

'Being a kleptomaniac is not sufficient grounds for being exonerated from stealing because criminal law considers that a kleptomaniac still knows that what he or she is doing and that stealing is wrong. '

It's not that he doesn't know. It's that he knows but cannot prevent himself.

'However, we can object that numerous drug addicts report knowing that what they do is wrong. They do not showcase a troubled reason that would not dissociate right from wrong.'

Again, it's only in the most extreme of examples that an individual cannot tell right from wrong.

'Nonetheless, cognitive biases indicate other avenues than the revision of the reasonable person standard, such as training for judges and juries. These could be useful to warn the latter about potential biases in their judgment and that of others. A famous, but controversial, example is a study supposedly showing that judges render harsher decisions when they’re hungry.'

Now we're heading in the right direction. Although there is some debate as to whether that particular example was as accurate as it could have been. But we've already seen that blood sugar levels can most definitely result in anti social behaviour.

And if anyone is interested, the original paper by Sapolski that brought up the subject to which the paper quoted above was partly in response.

Sapolski: The frontal cortex and the criminal justice system.
Thanks, that was an interesting read. I still think the positive/negative aspects of determinism are not being fully addressed. I don't see how one can escape the inevitable whether good or bad.
 
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Bradskii

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Thanks, that was an interesting read. I still think the positive/negative aspects of determinism are not being fully addressed. I don't see how one can escape the inevitable whether good or bad.
I don't either.

I can live with the idea that there is no free will. I do consider it now and then if I'm in a bad mood because someone has done something that I don't appreciate. It can be psychologically beneficial in thinking that there was a fixed sequence of events that happened that caused the person to act as they did. So I can view it more as 'an act of God' rather than waste valuable emotional credit in frustration and blame.

But...I most definitely do not like the idea that everything is pre-determined. And I have spent quite a lot of time looking for an escape clause for this. It's why it has taken me very many years to make a decision on free will. It suggests a form of fatalism. Well, it did suggest it. Now...I accept it.

Does that mean I can roll my eyes when I'm up before the judge for sentencing and claim that hey, it was all predetermined and that I can't be blamed? Well, yes and no. Yes, it was all predetermined but no, you're still going to be blamed. You are responsible. Tough luck. But your culpability, in the legal sense - the degree of responsibility to which we will hold you, will be taken into account.
 
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o_mlly

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Yes, what you quoted is untestable. But its reasonable.

I'm just looking for a rational explanation for how it could be otherwise. I wouldnt insist on that being testable either. Just reasonable.
Epilogue:
  • In moral acts, reason commands the will. (The choice between croissant or donut not likely a moral decision but a matter more likely of taste than truth.)
  • Reason informs one's value system.
  • The formation of one's value system occurs over time.
  • One's value system is not entirely fixed but it is also not easily modified.
  • Remotely to a moral decision, the moral actor has far greater free will.
  • As the gatekeeper of his own value system, he decides of those events that happen to him, which ones to internalize or dismiss.
  • In the moment of a moral decision, the agent is less free than he is remotely and acts upon his value system as it is in that moment.
 
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o_mlly

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You have either completely misunderstood the point that was being made or you are deliberately avoiding having to address it. I think most people will conclude the latter.
Most people haven't read my posts in this thread.
Sin is a religious concept.
Change the word "sin" to "immoral" or "bad".
There have been so many put forward. I can see you might want to disagree with them. But to say none have been presented is bizarre.
No arguments so far. Just gratuitous assertions and poorly designed studies.
Hell, I have difficulty in changing my own behaviour.
Good. You've ID's an important consideration on explaining the operation of free will. See my post above.
 
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2PhiloVoid

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No. One example is simply that. An example of what is being discussed. An example of how two seemingly unconnected events are linked, one literally causing the other. If the universe is determinate then there is no proof available. Just the opportunity to show that any given event is caused by a prior one. That's it. There is nothing more.

But it can be shown to be indeterminate by giving a single example of an event not caused by anything (and again, we can skip quantum mechanics because it operates at a scale many orders of magnitude beneath what we are discussing).
No, I think in terms of underdetermination rather than in those of indetermination.
You'll have to if you want to address the validity of the claim 'The universe is determinative'.

I disagree that anyone has to submit to, or be stuck within and only within, the specific semantic tact (or praxis) that you're wanting to harbor in. And, what's more, since you have a certain Game of "Catch the Butterfly" you're wanting to play, I'll simply admit that you've won your argument on your own semantic level, but I'll do so all the while continuing to sit here, drink some tea and ponder over some of the philosophical tensions that have manifested in the analysis of philosophically laden concepts used in metaphysics and science between folks like Descartes and Pascal, Wittgenstein and Turing, Einstein and Bohr (or Bon), Susskind and Smolin, or Sapolsky and _________ [fill in the blank].

There you go, Bradskii. You're free to continue on in your own chosen enclosure of Sapolskian Evolutionary Psychology. I'm not going to try to stop you or avert you from it, unless ... ... ...

Besides, why have a one-sided conversation? I'm not a fan of that sort of thing. And neither was Winston Smith, really.
 
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childeye 2

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I don't either.

I can live with the idea that there is no free will. I do consider it now and then if I'm in a bad mood because someone has done something that I don't appreciate. It can be psychologically beneficial in thinking that there was a fixed sequence of events that happened that caused the person to act as they did. So I can view it more as 'an act of God' rather than waste valuable emotional credit in frustration and blame.
I can relate to what you're describing.

"I can live with the idea that there is no free will".

I get the intended sentiment of the above statement, but the problem is that it is positing from a subjective version of free will. If objectively 'free will' requires that an agent can genuinely escape the causal necessity of a deterministic world', then the statement becomes nonsensical because it's the more accurate articulation to posit that "free will" is the "idea" or "notion" while determinism is the actual circumstances of antecedent events that we find ourselves in.

For what it's worth, I find your commentary on wasting valuable emotional credit in frustration and blame, to be insightful.

But...I most definitely do not like the idea that everything is pre-determined. And I have spent quite a lot of time looking for an escape clause for this. It's why it has taken me very many years to make a decision on free will. It suggests a form of fatalism. Well, it did suggest it. Now...I accept it.
"I most definitely do not like the idea that everything is pre-determined."

As sentient beings, it's a perfectly reasonable question to ask, why do bad things happen? Less common is to think to ask, why do good things happen? Therefore, 'fatalism' tends to carry a negative connotation for most people.

As pertains to a positive connotation of fatalism, I view the true meaning of the term faith as an affirmation of the hope that ultimately goodness prevails. One must have an objective definition of "good" to appreciate what you are expressing above.
Does that mean I can roll my eyes when I'm up before the judge for sentencing and claim that hey, it was all predetermined and that I can't be blamed? Well, yes and no. Yes, it was all predetermined but no, you're still going to be blamed. You are responsible. Tough luck. But your culpability, in the legal sense - the degree of responsibility to which we will hold you, will be taken into account.
Sound reasoning would show a judgment without hypocrisy. There is the legalistic approach that without punishment there's no viable reason to be good, as if 'goodness' is actually naivete. It's ironic that a criminal mind could rationalize criminality based on a legalistic mindset.
 
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