Does abortion really equal murder?

[jlujan69]

For my fellow pro-lifers, the thread title says it all. Since I hear it trumpeted as such, should we not advocate imprisonment or the death penalty for the women who have it done and the medical staff who carry it out as we do for most murderers in our society? If not, then shouldn't we consider putting it in its own category? I'm not saying we should support abortion, rather give it a more accurate description. Thoughts?

 

[morningstar2651]

If abortion is murder, does that make a miscarriage manslaughter?

Manslaughter is [SIZE=-1]the killing of a person without the element of intention necessary to constitute murder.[/SIZE]

 

[Sitswithamouse]

What about Ectopic pregnancies?
Would that be accidental death/assisted murder.
The complicatons are many..

 

[WatersMoon110]

I don't think that most Pro-Lifers who proclaim, "abortion is murder," actually mean that it literally is the same as murdering a born human. Because, as you've said, most don't advocate the same punishment for women/doctors who do abortions as they do for murderers. But there is a non-legal (slang) definition of "murder" which basically means, "something that [I consider] very bad," and I feel that such people are really using this definition, to show that they feel abortion is something very bad.

At the very least, looking at things that way has helped me to better deal with people who insist that, "abortion is murder." *wink*

 

[The Gregorian]

Yes, abortion is murder, and I think it should be punishable in most cases.

Someone CAN be charged with manslaughter if they punch a pregnant woman and she miscarries... If a woman intentionally causes herself to miscarry... yes, that should be manslaughter. If a woman simply miscarries the baby, that would be just like a person getting sick and dying. Her body TRIED to take care of the baby and failed. Just like you may TRY to take care of a sick child and fail. That's not murder or manslaughter, that's an accident.

as far as Ectopic pregnancies... that IS still killing someone, but it would be catagorized as self-defense and not punishable.

... but if you're a teenager and you get pregnant, but you don't want your mommy and daddy finding out you're having sex, so you kill someone to hide the evidence... you've committed murder whether you killed the baby to hide the evidence, or you kill the boy you slept with so he "can't tell." Both should be punishable.

I don't think it should result in the death penalty... but I've said for a while... if you have an elective abortion, it should come with a hysterectomy.

The only exception would be for rape. Although I would encourage the mother not to punish the child for what the father's done... I think abortion shouldn't be punishable IF the mother agrees to press charges against her rapist. If you're not willing to press charges, it's not rape. Period.

 

[lawtonfogle]

If abortion is murder, does that make a miscarriage manslaughter?

Manslaughter is [SIZE=-1]the killing of a person without the element of intention necessary to constitute murder.[/SIZE]

Depends upon why the miscarriage. If the woman did something stupid and it caused it, then yes, just like if you did something stupid and killed a friend with no intent. On the other hand, if it was due to natural (I'm not putting a definition up yet, so no nitpicking it) causes, then it is just death, just like if your friend died from a *natural* heart attack, he died, you didn't, in any way kill him, even if you were holding his hand, or playing a game with him, or were even the only person within a mile of him.

 

[lawtonfogle]

Yes, abortion is murder, and I think it should be punishable in most cases.

Someone CAN be charged with manslaughter if they punch a pregnant woman and she miscarries... If a woman intentionally causes herself to miscarry... yes, that should be manslaughter. If a woman simply miscarries the baby, that would be just like a person getting sick and dying. Her body TRIED to take care of the baby and failed. Just like you may TRY to take care of a sick child and fail. That's not murder or manslaughter, that's an accident.

as far as Ectopic pregnancies... that IS still killing someone, but it would be catagorized as self-defense and not punishable.

... but if you're a teenager and you get pregnant, but you don't want your mommy and daddy finding out you're having sex, so you kill someone to hide the evidence... you've committed murder whether you killed the baby to hide the evidence, or you kill the boy you slept with so he "can't tell." Both should be punishable.

I don't think it should result in the death penalty... but I've said for a while... if you have an elective abortion, it should come with a hysterectomy.

The only exception would be for rape. Although I would encourage the mother not to punish the child for what the father's done... I think abortion shouldn't be punishable IF the mother agrees to press charges against her rapist. If you're not willing to press charges, it's not rape. Period.

If abortion is murder, what about rape will then justify killing of a human. If we can't execute the rapist who rape children, much less adults, we sure as [wash mouth] can't execute the innocents involved in such a situation. Yes it puts more burden on the woman, but at the same time, so does having been raped in the first place. Unless you are willing to say two wrongs make a right, you need to better explain you position.

 

[selfinflikted]

Yes, abortion is murder, and I think it should be punishable in most cases.

No, abortion is not murder.

Muder - The unlawful killing of one human by another, especially with premeditated malice.

Thing is, abortion is not unlawful. By definition, it is not murder.

Someone CAN be charged with manslaughter if they punch a pregnant woman and she miscarries...

There's a reason why this is so. If the mother wished to carry the baby to full term, it would be considered manslaughter, iirc. The mother's choice (or lack of) is everything in a case like this.

If a woman intentionally causes herself to miscarry... yes, that should be manslaughter.

Says you. Others would disagree.

If a woman simply miscarries the baby, that would be just like a person getting sick and dying.

Wouldn't god be held responsible? ...

as far as Ectopic pregnancies... that IS still killing someone, but it would be catagorized as self-defense and not punishable.

So, abortion is not murder. Make up your mind.

... but if you're a teenager and you get pregnant, but you don't want your mommy and daddy finding out you're having sex, so you kill someone to hide the evidence... you've committed murder whether you killed the baby to hide the evidence, or you kill the boy you slept with so he "can't tell." Both should be punishable.

Nope, you can't have your cake and eat it too.

I don't think it should result in the death penalty... but I've said for a while... if you have an elective abortion, it should come with a hysterectomy.

Ludicrous.

The only exception would be for rape.

Another exception? hmm.

Although I would encourage the mother not to punish the child for what the father's done... I think abortion shouldn't be punishable IF the mother agrees to press charges against her rapist. If you're not willing to press charges, it's not rape. Period.

<staff edit>

 

[lawtonfogle]

No, abortion is not murder.

Muder - The unlawful killing of one human by another, especially with premeditated malice.

Thing is, abortion is not unlawful. By definition, it is not murder.

Assuming the layman definition (abortion is technically any end to a pregnancy that doesn't end with a child being born), are you saying this because it isn't unlawful killing... in which case you are only partially right, since in some areas at some times it is lawful, but it hasn't always been everywhere. Or are you saying it is because an embryo isn't a person, in which case we are quickly moving from E&M to Philosophy, unless we quickly agree on what a person is (and remember, under law, corporations count as persons).

So, here is another question, if abortion isn't murder, should it be?

There's a reason why this is so. If the mother wished to carry the baby to full term, it would be considered manslaughter, iirc. The mother's choice (or lack of) is everything in a case like this.



Says you. Others would disagree.



Wouldn't god be held responsible? ...

Personally I don't know of a god who is responsible for abortions in any mythology, though I guess any god of death could do. If we are talking God (yes, I am a bit on the capitalize thing, then again, I capitalize Allah, Lucifer, ect.), then that is a different can of worms better located in Theology (though we may be limited if we are not all Christians by CF standards).

So, abortion is not murder. Make up your mind.

Is me shooting you murder? Depends upon the circumstances, and as such, concerning two distinct situations, I can say yes and no. Doesn't lead to a contradiction/me not having made up my mind.

Nope, you can't have your cake and eat it too.



Ludicrous.



Another exception? hmm.



You are seriously demented.

I think I have already spoken on the entire rape thing.

 

[selfinflikted]

Assuming the layman definition (abortion is technically any end to a pregnancy that doesn't end with a child being born), are you saying this because it isn't unlawful killing... in which case you are only partially right, since in some areas at some times it is lawful, but it hasn't always been everywhere. Or are you saying it is because an embryo isn't a person, in which case we are quickly moving from E&M to Philosophy, unless we quickly agree on what a person is (and remember, under law, corporations count as persons).

Well, both really. But I was referring to the legality of it with regard to the definition of murder. As far as I'm aware, abortion is legal in all states in the U.S. (even though some states impose restrictions such as late-term, etc etc. It is, for all intents and purposes, legal).

So, here is another question, if abortion isn't murder, should it be?

Not in my opinion.

Personally I don't know of a god who is responsible for abortions in any mythology, though I guess any god of death could do. If we are talking God (yes, I am a bit on the capitalize thing, then again, I capitalize Allah, Lucifer, ect.), then that is a different can of worms better located in Theology (though we may be limited if we are not all Christians by CF standards).

I mean biblegod. And yes, I refuse to capitalise it for reasons of my own.

Is me shooting you murder? Depends upon the circumstances, and as such, concerning two distinct situations, I can say yes and no. Doesn't lead to a contradiction/me not having made up my mind.

You're right, of course. But shooting someone, and having an abortion for whatever reason are two different things in my book. I could explain further, but then we would be getting more into the philosophical end of things, and as you've noted earlier, that discussion would probably be better suited for another forum.

 

[lawtonfogle]

Well, both really.

Ok, if you want to, define 'person' and 'unlawful killing'. I added the not normally present if because I can understand why anyone wouldn't want to.

But I was referring to the legality of it with regard to the definition of murder. As far as I'm aware, abortion is legal in all states in the U.S. (even though some states impose restrictions such as late-term, etc etc. It is, for all intents and purposes, legal).

I was partly speaking that in some countries, and years ago even in US, it wasn't, and as such, you have to be using a here and now definition.

Not in my opinion.



I mean biblegod. And yes, I refuse to capitalise it for reasons of my own.

Mind me asking why?

You're right, of course. But shooting someone, and having an abortion for whatever reason are two different things in my book. I could explain further, but then we would be getting more into the philosophical end of things, and as you've noted earlier, that discussion would probably be better suited for another forum.

Ok, scratch the above definition request.

Really though, how are ethics and morality not an extension of philosophy (and theology, not meaning just Christian theology either)?

 

[selfinflikted]

Ok, if you want to, define 'person' and 'unlawful killing'. I added the not normally present if because I can understand why anyone wouldn't want to.

I don't mind, and I'll oblige...

Person, is from my own definition, someone who is conscious, self-aware, and has a sense of personal identity. A fetus, especially an early fetus, doesn't have these things as far as we know. I would certainly not consider a fetus a person.

As far as "unlawful killing" goes, you can pretty much stick to the textbook definition of murder as fas as I'm concerned. My comment to the earlier poster was to point out that by definition, abortion is not murder, because it is legal. It was meant for nothing more than that.

I was partly speaking that in some countries, and years ago even in US, it wasn't, and as such, you have to be using a here and now definition.

Yes, that is true.

Mind me asking why?

I don't mind you asking, although my reasoning is a bit arbitrary, and you may find my answer unsatisfying. I simply do not concede that biblegod is worthy of capitalisation. That is all.

Really though, how are ethics and morality not an extension of philosophy (and theology, not meaning just Christian theology either)?

I would say that they really are.

 

[lawtonfogle]

I don't mind, and I'll oblige...

Person, is from my own definition, someone who is conscious, self-aware, and has a sense of personal identity. A fetus, especially an early fetus, doesn't have these things as far as we know. I would certainly not consider a fetus a person.

I know this is over done, but what about people who have temporarily (or permanently, taking into account best medical predictions) lost any self-awareness.

I don't mind you asking, although my reasoning is a bit arbitrary, and you may find my answer unsatisfying. I simply do not concede that biblegod is worthy of capitalisation. That is all.

What about entities/names such as Zeus, Allah, or even other names of God such as Jehovah?

 

[Maren]

I had though we had this same thread three weeks ago...

I guess it is true; old threads never die, they just keep getting recycled.

 

[Eleveness]

In all of the discussions regarding abortion that I have read, I have never seen anyone speak out about the rights of the pregnant woman.

Isn't a pregnant woman a human being? Doesn't she have the same rights as all of us? Doesn't she have the right to own property? I'm not going to claim that she "owns" the fetus inside her, but doesn't she at least own her own body? Doesn't she own the nutrients in her bloodstream? Doesn't she have the right to dictate how those nutrients are spent?

And doesn't she have the right to deny the fetus the nutrients in her body?

Claiming that a pregnant woman must carry the fetus to term is tantamount to slavery, in my not-so-humble opinion--you're effectively saying to the pregnant woman, "You don't have the right to dictate how your body is to be used; we're the ones making the decisions." Doesn't that sound like slavery? And isn't slavery prohibited by the 13th amendment?

Yes, a pregnant woman is a human being. Yes, she has the same rights as we do, including the right to own property. This right of ownership certainly extends to her own body, including the nutrients in her bloodstream. This means that she can decide how her nutrients are spent.

She has the right to choose to deny the fetus those nutrients. And if the fetus dies as a result.... oh well.

 

[selfinflikted]

In all of the discussions regarding abortion that I have read, I have never seen anyone speak out about the rights of the pregnant woman.

Isn't a pregnant woman a human being? Doesn't she have the same rights as all of us? Doesn't she have the right to own property? I'm not going to claim that she "owns" the fetus inside her, but doesn't she at least own her own body? Doesn't she own the nutrients in her bloodstream? Doesn't she have the right to dictate how those nutrients are spent?

And doesn't she have the right to deny the fetus the nutrients in her body?

Claiming that a pregnant woman must carry the fetus to term is tantamount to slavery, in my not-so-humble opinion--you're effectively saying to the pregnant woman, "You don't have the right to dictate how your body is to be used; we're the ones making the decisions." Doesn't that sound like slavery? And isn't slavery prohibited by the 13th amendment?

Yes, a pregnant woman is a human being. Yes, she has the same rights as we do, including the right to own property. This right of ownership certainly extends to her own body, including the nutrients in her bloodstream. This means that she can decide how her nutrients are spent.

She has the right to choose to deny the fetus those nutrients. And if the fetus dies as a result.... oh well.

This is a very valid point and you're right, it's not talked about alot, but I have participated in threads where this was brought up. To hear most pro-life people talk, you'd think the potential life of a clump of cells automatically usurps the rights of the mother.

 

[selfinflikted]

I had though we had this same thread three weeks ago...

I guess it is true; old threads never die, they just keep getting recycled.

Well so? No one's forcing you to participate

 

[selfinflikted]

I know this is over done, but what about people who have temporarily (or permanently, taking into account best medical predictions) lost any self-awareness.

I would be pushing a double-standard if I said "no" to that, however, I'm not really sure. Legally, they would have rights that a clump of cells gestating inside a womb wouldn't have. This is a very grey area, and I'm honestly not sure where I stand on that. I can say this about that though, if the time ever came that I was considered a "vegetable" I would definitely want someone to pull the plug.

What about entities/names such as Zeus, Allah, or even other names of God such as Jehovah?

Call the grammar police because, even though they are "proper names" and grammatically speaking, should be capitalised - I normally do not.

 

[Polycarp_fan]

For my fellow pro-lifers, the thread title says it all. Since I hear it trumpeted as such, should we not advocate imprisonment or the death penalty for the women who have it done and the medical staff who carry it out as we do for most murderers in our society? If not, then shouldn't we consider putting it in its own category? I'm not saying we should support abortion, rather give it a more accurate description. Thoughts?

Watch and abortion and decide for yourself. The Silent Scream was a movie that changed me forever on abortion as birth control and a convenience. The enemies of morality always want you to ignore reality.

 

[cantata]

Watch and abortion and decide for yourself. The Silent Scream was a movie that changed me forever on abortion as birth control and a convenience. The enemies of morality always want you to ignore reality.

Ah yes, what an excellent measure: whether or not you personally find it disturbing to watch.