If you think that Noah's flood was global and wish to wager on it,

AV1611VET · Jan 12, 2024

The Barbarian said:
Some YE creationists try to salvage the situation by claiming the continents did it all in the "Flood Year."

I disagree with them on that.

I think India was right where it is now, when God broke Pangaea up in Peleg's time.

The Barbarian said:
Problem with that is, the kinetic energy required to make the continents gallop across thousands of miles in a year, and then slow to the observed rate, would be released as heat, boiling the oceans.

Unless India didn't have to "gallop" anywhere at all.

The Barbarian said:
Would you like to see those numbers?

No, thank you.

Any heat generated by God at work on the earth would have been handled appropriately.

God helped Daniel's three friends in the fire, and not a hair on their heads, or a fiber of their clothing was even singed.

He can do the same with kinetic energy.

In fact, if He wanted to, He could push Guam to the other side of the world without any heat being generated at all.

Deuteronomy 29:5 And I have led you forty years in the wilderness: your clothes are not waxen old upon you, and thy shoe is not waxen old upon thy foot.

The Barbarian · Jan 12, 2024

AV1611VET said:
I disagree with them on that.

I think India was right where it is now, when God broke Pangaea up in Peleg's time.

The evidence shows otherwise. BTW:
In 1 Chronicles 1:19 it is noted that the earth was divided in the days of Peleg: “Two sons were born to Eber: One was named Peleg, because in his time the earth was divided; his brother was named Joktan” (see also verse 25). The detail that “the earth was divided” has caused some to speculate about the exact nature of the division.

The first reference to Peleg is found in Genesis 10:25, which reads the same as 1 Chronicles 1:19. Immediately following, in Genesis 11, is the event that describes this division of the earth: the Tower of Babel.

At the Tower of Babel, the Lord was displeased with the actions of people who sought to build a tower to the heavens and “make a name” for themselves (Genesis 11:4). In judgment, God confused their languages so they could no longer understand one another. The account ends with this summary: “That is why it was called Babel—because there the LORD confused the language of the whole world. From there the LORD scattered them over the face of the whole earth” (Genesis 11:9).

Peleg’s family history is noted once again following the Tower of Babel (Genesis 11:16–19). The fact that Peleg is mentioned before and immediately after the account of the Tower of Babel helps clarify that this is the key event that divided the earth. It seems the earth was not divided geologically, but its people were divided into various language groups.

In what way was the earth divided in Peleg’s time? | GotQuestions.org

In what way was the earth divided in Peleg’s time? Is the earth being divided in the time of Peleg referring to the continents separating or to the Tower of Babel?

www.gotquestions.org

AV1611VET said:
Any heat generated by God at work on the earth would have been handled appropriately.

If you can call in a non-scriptural miracle anytime you need one to save your ideas, then all stories are equally plausible.

AV1611VET · Jan 12, 2024

The Barbarian said:
If you can call in a non-scriptural miracle anytime you need one to save your ideas, then all stories are equally plausible.

That's academia's nightmare -- not mine.

You bring up miracles, and watch them run like hamsters on a wheel, not knowing what to say next.

Except insult the Bible believer.

The Barbarian · Jan 12, 2024

If you can call in a non-scriptural miracle anytime you need one to save your ideas, then all stories are equally plausible.

AV1611VET said:
That's academia's nightmare -- not mine.

You invented it. Your problem. You invent miracles, and watch them run like hamsters on a wheel, attempting to justify your new doctrines.
I don't think you mean to insult Bible believers. But it is more than a little disturbing to those of us who depend on God's word as it is.

HarleyER · Jan 17, 2024

tonychanyt said:
I am taking wagers here.

This OP is NOT about whether Noah's flood was global or not. I'm assuming you think that it was. This post is about wagering on what you believe.

Let proposition P1 = Noah's flood was global.
P2 = Noah's flood was not global but regional.

Between 0 and 10, how much weight do you put on each of the above propositions? The stronger your belief in a proposition, the higher the weight.

Are you willing to wager based on your weighting scheme?

This is not a lotto/gambling bet. This is a bet to scientifically measure the strength of your belief. Put your money where your mouth is. I am interested in finding out the strength of your belief mathematically. See Subjective (Bayesian) Probability.

You can say that the moon is made of cheese. Words are cheap unless you are willing to bet on it.

Put me down for P1=10.

2 Peter 3:5 For when they maintain this, it escapes their notice that by the word of God the heavens existed long ago and the earth was formed out of water and by water, 6 through which the world at that time was destroyed by being flooded with water.

Luke 17:26 And just as it happened in the days of Noah, so will it also be in the days of the Son of Man: 27 people were eating, they were drinking, they were marrying, and they were being given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, and the flood came and destroyed them all.

Hebrews 11:7 By faith Noah, being warned by God about things not yet seen, in reverence prepared an ark for the salvation of his household, by which he condemned the world, and became an heir of the righteousness which is according to faith.

BTW-Put our Lord Jesus, the writer of Hebrews, and the Apostle Peter down as a 10.

jamiec · Jan 18, 2024

tonychanyt said:
I am taking wagers here.

This OP is NOT about whether Noah's flood was global or not. I'm assuming you think that it was. This post is about wagering on what you believe.

Let proposition P1 = Noah's flood was global.
P2 = Noah's flood was not global but regional.

Between 0 and 10, how much weight do you put on each of the above propositions? The stronger your belief in a proposition, the higher the weight.

Are you willing to wager based on your weighting scheme?

This is not a lotto/gambling bet. This is a bet to scientifically measure the strength of your belief. Put your money where your mouth is. I am interested in finding out the strength of your belief mathematically. See Subjective (Bayesian) Probability.

You can say that the moon is made of cheese. Words are cheap unless you are willing to bet on it.

P1 = minus 0

P2 = 10/10. I have not a shadow of doubt that the Flood story as told in Genesis is entirely fictional. Though it may be derived from stories about local inundations - in Babylonia, perhaps.

I think betting is immoral.

tonychanyt · Jan 18, 2024

HarleyER said:
Put me down for P1=10.

Proposition P1 = Noah's flood was global.
P2 = Noah's flood was not global but regional.

I assume that for P2, your weight is 0. These are your odds: 10 and 0.

Now, how many USD do you want to bet?

The Barbarian · Jan 18, 2024

HarleyER said:
2 Peter 3:5 For when they maintain this, it escapes their notice that by the word of God the heavens existed long ago and the earth was formed out of water and by water, 6 through which the world at that time was destroyed by being flooded with water.

The word "kosmos" used by Peter was also used by Luke to describe the Roman Empire. So it tends to undermine your argument to cite Peter.

AV1611VET · Jan 18, 2024

The Barbarian said:
The word "kosmos" used by Peter was also used by Luke to describe the Roman Empire. So it tends to undermine your argument to cite Peter.

If the Flood was just a local flood, why was Noah and his family aboard the Ark for over a year?

The Barbarian · Jan 18, 2024

AV1611VET said:
If the Flood was just a local flood, why was Noah and his family aboard the Ark for over a year?

Because he had no way to steer or direct the boat, and eventually, the Ark drifted to shore. Actually, there's a bigger problem with that. No way to carry enough food for everything for an entire year. Of course, you can claim "Oh that was another miracle." But then you could do the same thing for the Ark being afloat for a year. Rock and a hard place.

HarleyER · Jan 18, 2024

tonychanyt said:
Proposition P1 = Noah's flood was global.
P2 = Noah's flood was not global but regional.

I assume that for P2, your weight is 0. These are your odds: 10 and 0.

Now, how many USD do you want to bet?

If P1=10, then P2=0. How many USD do I want to bet???? Since this is unprovable it doesn't matter how much I want to bet. It would be similar to me asking you how much would you be willing to bet that Jesus rose from the dead?

HarleyER · Jan 18, 2024

The Barbarian said:
The word "kosmos" used by Peter was also used by Luke to describe the Roman Empire. So it tends to undermine your argument to cite Peter.

If you want to interpret Peter's use of "kosmos" based upon some verse in Luke where Luke mentions it as the Roman Empire, then you might have a point. But to me that seems to be a stretch. Kosmos is frequently used as world (and means world)...not the Roman Empire. (e.g. "Go make disciples of all the world...", "What does it profit a man if he gains the whole world...", etc. ) Christ compares the end of the world to the worldwide destruction of Noah. So to say the flood was a local flood is simply to say God will only partially destroy the world next time. I would think this, as well as many other verses, would undermine any argument that believes the flood was localized and simply is not true to what the scriptures teaches.

AV1611VET · Jan 18, 2024

The Barbarian said:
Because he had no way to steer or direct the boat, and eventually, the Ark drifted to shore. Actually, there's a bigger problem with that. No way to carry enough food for everything for an entire year. Of course, you can claim "Oh that was another miracle." But then you could do the same thing for the Ark being afloat for a year. Rock and a hard place.

I don't understand what you're saying here.

Are you saying the Flood was local, but the Ark story is false?

And if you think the Ark story is false, then what's the problem with a false story about the whole earth being flooded?

AV1611VET · Jan 18, 2024

HarleyER said:
If you want to interpret Peter's use of "kosmos" based upon some verse in Luke where Luke mentions it as the Roman Empire, then you might have a point. But to me that seems to be a stretch. Kosmos is frequently used as world (and means world)...not the Roman Empire. (e.g. "Go make disciples of all the world...", "What does it profit a man if he gains the whole world...", etc. ) Christ compares the end of the world to the worldwide destruction of Noah. So to say the flood was a local flood is simply to say God will only partially destroy the world next time. I would think this, as well as many other verses, would undermine any argument that believes the flood was localized and simply is not true to what the scriptures teaches.

The Flood story in the Bible is truly an academic nightmare, isn't it?

If college students say it was local, then they can't explain why Noah was aboard the Ark for a year, why birds boarded the Ark, how the Ark got into the mountains of Ararat, and a host of other facts the story mentions.

Yet if college students say it was global, then they can't find watermarks all over the earth.

The only true explanation is that the Flood -- just like the Creation Week -- was a series of one miracle after another.

But college students shun miracles like poison ivy, so they paint themselves into a corner.

It's the way of the world today.

Just like the Bible says it will be.

HarleyER · Jan 18, 2024

AV1611VET said:
The Flood story in the Bible is truly an academic nightmare, isn't it?

If college students say it was local, then they can't explain why Noah was aboard the Ark for a year, why birds boarded the Ark, how the Ark got into the mountains of Ararat, and a host of other facts the story mentions.

Yet if college students say it was global, then they can't find watermarks all over the earth.

The only true explanation is that the Flood -- just like the Creation Week -- was a series of one miracle after another.

But college students shun miracles like poison ivy, so they paint themselves into a corner.

It's the way of the world today.

Just like the Bible says it will be.

There are over 250 independent stories of a world wide flood in ancient writings that has similar features as the scriptures. Of course, many of these pagan religions have gone the wayside while only the true scripture account has remain. But really, the greatest miracle of all isn't Noah, it's God becoming man, being cruxcified on our behalf, and then raising from the dead. If they can't believe Noah, I'm not sure how they can believe that.

tonychanyt · Jan 18, 2024

HarleyER said:
Since this is unprovable it doesn't matter how much I want to bet.

We will settle the question and the account after the resurrection.

AV1611VET · Jan 18, 2024

HarleyER said:
There are over 250 independent stories of a world wide flood in ancient writings that has similar features as the scriptures.

And every one of them, with the exception of the one in the Bible, is a lie of the Devil.

HarleyER said:
Of course, many of these pagan religions have gone the wayside while only the true scripture account has remain.

Exactly!

The sixty-four dollar term for that is: diabolical plagiarism.

HarleyER said:
But really, the greatest miracle of all isn't Noah, it's God becoming man, being cruxcified on our behalf, and then raising from the dead. If they can't believe Noah, I'm not sure how they can believe that.

Amen!

AV1611VET · Jan 18, 2024

tonychanyt said:
We will settle the question and the account after the resurrection.

Can I watch?

tonychanyt · Jan 18, 2024

AV1611VET said:
Can I watch?

You can participate in the betting

SuperCow · Jan 18, 2024

I cannot wager anything until I have more clarification on the betting rules. I believe the flood was global in the sense that its effect was to wipe out all human life along with the Nephilim. I do not think that every mountain in every continent was covered to the top, nor do I think that is implied by the text. It can be interpreted in other ways.

If you think that Noah's flood was global and wish to wager on it,

SCIENCE CAN TAKE A HIKE

Crabby Old White Guy

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SCIENCE CAN TAKE A HIKE

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SCIENCE CAN TAKE A HIKE

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SCIENCE CAN TAKE A HIKE

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