You did not chose Me, I chose you.

Hammster

The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God.
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Ah!

You imagine I'd make that mistake??

Wow, do you believe 0% of things I've said about truly listening to full passages then?

Ok. I can't make you know me. You'd have to try to or something.

Here's a chance on this part:

We have zero power to cause ourselves to bear good fruit.

Zero.

But, we do have, by the holy Words of Christ Jesus, a choice to make -- to remain in Him.

I hope you'll get that, so you won't imagine me believing totally differently than I do.

There's just no better wording than the entirety of all 17 verses though.

I can only hope people will listen to them all.
We bear fruit. There’s no reason to be cut off. If we start bearing less fruit, the Vinedresser prunes us so that we start bearing more fruit again.
 
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Hammster

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I'm not the one who doesn't understand how God sees the difference. You are parroting a doctrine and not studying on your own.

A willful sin of lawlessness is against God's laws. It is a sin unto death. An unintentional sin is covered by the blood of Jesus if they are walking in the Spirit. It is called a 'trespass.' Trespasses are sins against each other, not God, Himself.

Numbers 15:27-30 (There was sacrifice to cover unintentional sin, but no sacrifice for willful sins; they were put to death.

27 If any of you sin unintentionally, you are to offer a one-year-old female goat as a sin offering. 28 At the altar the priest shall perform the ritual of purification to purify you from your sin, and you will be forgiven. 29 The same regulation applies to all who unintentionally commit a sin, whether they are native Israelites or resident foreigners.

30 But any who sin deliberately (willfully), whether they are natives or foreigners, are guilty of treating the Lord with contempt, and they shall be put to death,
Okay. I’m not going to argue this. You want to promote sinless perfection, and to me, that’s heresy and puts a burden on folks. I’ll stick with grace.
 
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CharismaticLady

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Does it make sense to you that we should be able to undo what God has planned? In a sense, we don't know who is elect til we meet him. The fact of salvation is not real, if that is not ours. If we are saved --we will indeed be with him eternally.

We will be saved, if we endure to the end. There is a heaven for the righteous and holy. Rev. 22:11. But it is a daily status of being saved. Jesus prayed for His disciples, specifically, and then He prayed for those who would believe their word. Jesus has given us His Holy Spirit to walk in daily, not to go in and out of. Paul commanded us to not quench the Spirit. We can't just put on a religious face on Sunday, and live like the devil the rest of the week.

There is a test to assure our hearts of whether or not we are in good standing, but it scares many in the Church, so preachers don't want to empty their pews to teach it. I doubt it is even taught in seminary. It is found in 1 John 3:18-24. It is called receiving what you pray for. And the key to answered prayer is being lead by the Spirit and only praying what He tells you to pray. So, of course, we must have the Spirit in order to be led by the Spirit. For me, I had already been going to church for 30 years before I truly repented and was filled with the Spirit. The difference between the first 30 years and the last 42 years is night and day. And I recall when I was growing up wondering if there really was a God because none or my prayers were answered.

I no longer have to wonder.

cc: @Hammster
 
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CharismaticLady

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Okay. I’m not going to argue this. You want to promote sinless perfection, and to me, that’s heresy and puts a burden on folks. I’ll stick with grace.

The Biblical meaning of grace in a Christian is God's power given to us through a new born again nature. So I'll stick with Biblical grace.

2 Peter 1:2-11
2 Grace and peace be multiplied to you in the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord, 3 as His divine power has given to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of Him who called us by glory and virtue, 4 by which have been given to us exceedingly great and precious promises, that through these you may be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

5 But also for this very reason, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue, to virtue knowledge, 6 to knowledge self-control, to self-control perseverance, to perseverance godliness, 7 to godliness brotherly kindness, and to brotherly kindness love. 8 For if these things are yours and abound, you will be neither barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 For he who lacks these things is shortsighted, even to blindness, and has forgotten that he was cleansed from his old sins.

10 Therefore, brethren, be even more diligent to make your call and election sure, for if you do these things you will never stumble; 11 for so an entrance will be supplied to you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.
 
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Hammster

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The Biblical meaning of grace in a Christian is God's power given to us through a new born again nature. So I'll stick with Biblical grace.

2 Peter 1:2-11
2 Grace and peace be multiplied to you in the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord, 3 as His divine power has given to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of Him who called us by glory and virtue, 4 by which have been given to us exceedingly great and precious promises, that through these you may be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

5 But also for this very reason, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue, to virtue knowledge, 6 to knowledge self-control, to self-control perseverance, to perseverance godliness, 7 to godliness brotherly kindness, and to brotherly kindness love. 8 For if these things are yours and abound, you will be neither barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 For he who lacks these things is shortsighted, even to blindness, and has forgotten that he was cleansed from his old sins.

10 Therefore, brethren, be even more diligent to make your call and election sure, for if you do these things you will never stumble; 11 for so an entrance will be supplied to you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.
Nothing about if you sin you die. Sorry.
 
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BBAS 64

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There are all kinds of faith. A heathen still trusts his heathen father and mother. That is faith. The Good Samaitan did good. Was it just filthy rags?


Good Day, CharismaticLady

I do not see Paul making such distinctions... But I do understand what you are getting at.

Not all men have Faith, because not all men have been granted it.

PHP 1 :29 For it has been granted to you that for the sake of Christ you should not only believe in him but also suffer for his sake, engaged in the same conflict that you saw I had and now hear that I still have.

In Him,

Bill
 
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aiki

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That was from John 15:16, but...

And said specifically to the Twelve whom Jesus had personally and directly chosen to be his disciples.

I hope you read all of chapter John 15.

Quite a number of times, yes. You?

2. Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away

Actually, the viticultural practices of the time in which the words of John 15 were spoken would not have involved "taking away" established but unfruitful branches, but rather the lifting up of these branches from the ground onto supporting structures to prevent rot and to give them better exposure to sunlight in order to encourage fruiting. In light of this, it seems evident to me that verse 2 has been mistranslated and should read "bears/lifts up" rather than "takes away," as the KJV has it. Such a rendering is by no means foreign to the text of Scripture. "Airo" is translated as takes up rather than takes away 32 times in Scripture.

14 You are My friends if you do whatever I command you.

And yet, while we were rebellious sinners and enemies of God, Christ died for us.

Jesus died for the whole world, but not all of the world will remain and not be lopped off because they did not keep the commands of Jesus.

This is essentially works-salvation which the Bible flatly and repeatedly denies (Ephesians 2:8-9; 2 Timothy 1:9; Titus 3:5)

Partial truths taking one verse out of the context of the whole like many have done produces heresies. Two heresies in the Church are Universalism and OSAS.

But you have done the very thing you condemn here in your OP!

OSAS is no heresy but the plain declaration of Scripture.
 
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Uber Genius

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26 biblical reasons man cannot choose or come to God in his own free will( whatever that unbiblical concept means)

1-Man by nature is deceitful (Jer. 17:9),
2-Man is full of evil (Mark 7:21-23)
3-Man loves darkness (John 3:19),
4-Man does not seek for God (Rom. 3:10-12),
5-Man is ungodly (Rom. 5:6),
6-Man is dead in his sins (Eph. 2:1),
7-Man by nature is a child of wrath (Eph. 2:3),
8-Man cannot understand spiritual things (1 Cor. 2:14),
9-Man is a slave of sin (Rom. 6:16-20)
10-Man is sinful at birth, sinful from the time of conception (Psalm 51:5)
11-Man is like a filthy rag his garments stained by sin and is unrighteous ( Is 64:6)
12-Man is hostile towards God and cannot submit to Him or His law ( Rom 8:7)
13-Man cannot do good and is completely incapable of such an act ( Rom 3:12)
14-Man is not born with faith so everything is done in sin ( Rom 14:23)
15-Man has not one single thing that is good in him ( Rom 7:18)
16-Man is born condemned ( John 3:18)

10 reasons semi pelagians are wrong !

1)man is deceitful (Jer. 17:9)
2)man is full of evil (Mark 7:21-23)
3)man loves darkness (John 3:19),
4)man does not seek for God (Rom. 3:10-12),
5)man is ungodly (Rom. 5:6),
6)man is dead in his sins (Eph. 2:1),
7)man by nature a child of wrath (Eph. 2:3),
8)man cannot understand spiritual things (1 Cor. 2:14),
9)man is a slave of sin (Rom. 6:16-20)
10)man is sinful in the womb and conceived in sin(Psalm 51:5)

Salvation is of, by, through the Lord period end of story.

hope this helps !!!
This is not helpful. It is a fallacy known as cherry-picking the data!

We need to avoid rhetorical flourish that defends our cherished beleifs in order to cooly and calmly reflect on all the data of scripture.

The following is excerpted from:Biblical Defense of Arminianism | Evidence Unseen

"
In the OT, God enabled the freewill of the people to choose him (Josh. 24:15; Isa. 50:2; Jer. 1:6; 2:13-14; 7:13; 13:10; 26:2-3; Ex. 3:11; 4:1-13; Hos. 11:1-9; Ps. 78:10; 81:11-13; Jer. 32:33). Consider several examples:

(Isa. 65:12) “I will destine you for the sword, and all of you will bow down to the slaughter. Because I called, but you did not answer; I spoke, but you did not hear. And you did evil in My sight and chose that in which I did not delight.

(Prov. 1:24) “I called and you refused, I stretched out my hand and no one paid attention.”

(Jer. 18:8) “If that nation I warned repents of its evil, then I will relent and not inflict on it the disaster I had planned.”

(Ps. 81:11-14) “My people did not listen to My voice, and Israel did not obey Me. 12 So I gave them over to the stubbornness of their heart, to walk in their own devices. 13 Oh that My people would listen to Me, that Israel would walk in My ways! 14 I would quickly subdue their enemies and turn My hand against their adversaries.”

(Jer. 7:23-26) “This is what I commanded them, saying, ‘Obey My voice, and I will be your God, and you will be My people; and you will walk in all the way which I command you, that it may be well with you.’ 24 Yet they did not obey or incline their ear, but walked in their own counsels and in the stubbornness of their evil heart, and went backward and not forward. 25 Since the day that your fathers came out of the land of Egypt until this day, I have sent you all My servants the prophets, daily rising early and sending them. 26 Yet they did not listen to Me or incline their ear, but stiffened their neck; they did more evil than their fathers” (Jer. 7:23-26). The larger context shows that God gave them a choice to obey and be forgiven, but they refused to do so (Jer. 7:1-22).

(Hos. 11:1-2 NIV) “When Israel was a child, I loved him, and out of Egypt I called my son. 2 But the more I called Israel, the further they went from me. They sacrificed to the Baals and they burned incense to images.”

3. Freewill is taught throughout the Bible
The Bible teaches freewill from one end to the other. It contains a number of broad, sweeping teachings that support the traditional concept of libertarian freewill. Even Reformed authors like D.A. Carson acknowledge these clear and perspicuous teachings of Scripture:[7]

(1) God calls on people to obey, choose, and believe in him (Jn. 15:10; Josh. 24:15; Jn. 3:18). These calls would be nonsense, if we are not free moral agents.

(2) The very fact that we can sin implies freedom of the will, unless we are claiming that God is the agent of sin.

(3) God judges us (1 Cor. 3:10-15; Rev. 20:11-15). Humans are rewarded and punished according to their actions. Judgment only makes sense, if we are free to choose and culpable for our choices.

(4) God tests his people, which implies our ability to pass or fail (Gen. 22:1; Jas. 1:12; 1 Pet. 1:6-7; 1 Cor. 10:13).

(5) Prayers are not scripted; they are free expressions of the heart (see the Psalms for good examples of this).

(6) God pleads with sinners to repent, which would only make sense in light of free moral decision (Ezek. 18:23-32; 33:11).

(7) God desires all men to believe in him (1 Tim. 2:4; 2 Pet. 3:9; Jn. 12:32). Consider this. An omnipotent being “desires” something that clearly is not happening. Something must be stopping God from doing what he wants to do. Freewill is the most likely solution to this problem (Lk. 7:30; Acts 7:51; Mt. 23:3, 37; Mt. 6:10; Jn. 7:17).

(8) God himself is a free moral agent, who is not determined (Rev. 4:11). Therefore, even the determinist will admit that it is not necessary for all decision to be determined. Jesus was not determined; instead, he submitted his will to the Father’s will (Lk. 22:42).

One final passage should be considered in this regard: Matthew 19:24. Jesus says, “It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God.” What exactly could this verse mean from a Calvinist perspective? Arminian scholar Roger Olson comments, “What sense does this verse make in light of irresistible grace? Is Jesus saying it is harder for God to save a rich man than a poor one? How could that be? If everyone, without exception, only gets into the kingdom of God by God’s work alone without any required cooperation on his or her part, then Jesus’ saying makes no sense at all.”[8]

The whole of scripture appeals to man to make choices based on testimony and evidence 1000s of times. Those who reject God's will are punished as examples for free agents to use in gaining wisdom of how to act. To deny these facts using scripture is again to cherry-pick the data horribly.

Your cogent rhetorical flourish above suggests that you have the capability to study and argue the scriptures, why then choose such a fallacious method to repsent your view of god's sovereignty and man's responsibility followed by the snide comment "I hope this helps?"

Let's strive together to have a conversation free of manipulation and appeals to fallacious methods. Let's get at the views that are offered to explain the data, Calvinism, Arminianism, Molinism, open theism, and let's avoid the name-calling and labeling "semi-pelegianism" and focus on which view best explains all the data of scripture.
 
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BBAS 64

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You couldn't hear your mother calling you for breakfast? Are all deaf, dumb, and blind until God opens our ears, eyes, and mouth? That is not what I'm saying, so you are twisting my meaning.

Where do you believe the faith to believe in Jesus comes from? From hearing the Word of God.

Good day, CL

Faith is granted, just like repentance it it granted by God to his Adopted children and they hear.

John 8:42 YLT

Jesus then said to them, `If God were your father, ye were loving me, for I came forth from God, and am come; for neither have I come of myself, but He sent me; wherefore do ye not know my speech? because ye are not able to hear my word. `Ye are of a father--the devil, and the desires of your father ye will to do; he was a man-slayer from the beginning, and in the truth he hath not stood, because there is no truth in him; when one may speak the falsehood, of his own he speaketh, because he is a liar--also his father. `And because I say the truth, ye do not believe me. Who of you doth convict me of sin? and if I speak truth, wherefore do ye not believe me? He who is of God, the sayings of God he doth hear; because of this ye do not hear, because of God ye are not.'

Those that are of God are able to Hear, while others are unable to hear.

Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God, as the Gospel is the sufficient and sole cause of Salvation.

In Him,

Bill
 
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Dan1988

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This is not helpful. It is a fallacy known as cherry-picking the data!

We need to avoid rhetorical flourish that defends our cherished beleifs in order to cooly and calmly reflect on all the data of scripture.

The following is excerpted from:Biblical Defense of Arminianism | Evidence Unseen

"
In the OT, God enabled the freewill of the people to choose him (Josh. 24:15; Isa. 50:2; Jer. 1:6; 2:13-14; 7:13; 13:10; 26:2-3; Ex. 3:11; 4:1-13; Hos. 11:1-9; Ps. 78:10; 81:11-13; Jer. 32:33). Consider several examples:

(Isa. 65:12) “I will destine you for the sword, and all of you will bow down to the slaughter. Because I called, but you did not answer; I spoke, but you did not hear. And you did evil in My sight and chose that in which I did not delight.

(Prov. 1:24) “I called and you refused, I stretched out my hand and no one paid attention.”

(Jer. 18:8) “If that nation I warned repents of its evil, then I will relent and not inflict on it the disaster I had planned.”

(Ps. 81:11-14) “My people did not listen to My voice, and Israel did not obey Me. 12 So I gave them over to the stubbornness of their heart, to walk in their own devices. 13 Oh that My people would listen to Me, that Israel would walk in My ways! 14 I would quickly subdue their enemies and turn My hand against their adversaries.”

(Jer. 7:23-26) “This is what I commanded them, saying, ‘Obey My voice, and I will be your God, and you will be My people; and you will walk in all the way which I command you, that it may be well with you.’ 24 Yet they did not obey or incline their ear, but walked in their own counsels and in the stubbornness of their evil heart, and went backward and not forward. 25 Since the day that your fathers came out of the land of Egypt until this day, I have sent you all My servants the prophets, daily rising early and sending them. 26 Yet they did not listen to Me or incline their ear, but stiffened their neck; they did more evil than their fathers” (Jer. 7:23-26). The larger context shows that God gave them a choice to obey and be forgiven, but they refused to do so (Jer. 7:1-22).

(Hos. 11:1-2 NIV) “When Israel was a child, I loved him, and out of Egypt I called my son. 2 But the more I called Israel, the further they went from me. They sacrificed to the Baals and they burned incense to images.”

3. Freewill is taught throughout the Bible
The Bible teaches freewill from one end to the other. It contains a number of broad, sweeping teachings that support the traditional concept of libertarian freewill. Even Reformed authors like D.A. Carson acknowledge these clear and perspicuous teachings of Scripture:[7]

(1) God calls on people to obey, choose, and believe in him (Jn. 15:10; Josh. 24:15; Jn. 3:18). These calls would be nonsense, if we are not free moral agents.

(2) The very fact that we can sin implies freedom of the will, unless we are claiming that God is the agent of sin.

(3) God judges us (1 Cor. 3:10-15; Rev. 20:11-15). Humans are rewarded and punished according to their actions. Judgment only makes sense, if we are free to choose and culpable for our choices.

(4) God tests his people, which implies our ability to pass or fail (Gen. 22:1; Jas. 1:12; 1 Pet. 1:6-7; 1 Cor. 10:13).

(5) Prayers are not scripted; they are free expressions of the heart (see the Psalms for good examples of this).

(6) God pleads with sinners to repent, which would only make sense in light of free moral decision (Ezek. 18:23-32; 33:11).

(7) God desires all men to believe in him (1 Tim. 2:4; 2 Pet. 3:9; Jn. 12:32). Consider this. An omnipotent being “desires” something that clearly is not happening. Something must be stopping God from doing what he wants to do. Freewill is the most likely solution to this problem (Lk. 7:30; Acts 7:51; Mt. 23:3, 37; Mt. 6:10; Jn. 7:17).

(8) God himself is a free moral agent, who is not determined (Rev. 4:11). Therefore, even the determinist will admit that it is not necessary for all decision to be determined. Jesus was not determined; instead, he submitted his will to the Father’s will (Lk. 22:42).

One final passage should be considered in this regard: Matthew 19:24. Jesus says, “It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God.” What exactly could this verse mean from a Calvinist perspective? Arminian scholar Roger Olson comments, “What sense does this verse make in light of irresistible grace? Is Jesus saying it is harder for God to save a rich man than a poor one? How could that be? If everyone, without exception, only gets into the kingdom of God by God’s work alone without any required cooperation on his or her part, then Jesus’ saying makes no sense at all.”[8]

The whole of scripture appeals to man to make choices based on testimony and evidence 1000s of times. Those who reject God's will are punished as examples for free agents to use in gaining wisdom of how to act. To deny these facts using scripture is again to cherry-pick the data horribly.

Your cogent rhetorical flourish above suggests that you have the capability to study and argue the scriptures, why then choose such a fallacious method to repsent your view of god's sovereignty and man's responsibility followed by the snide comment "I hope this helps?"

Let's strive together to have a conversation free of manipulation and appeals to fallacious methods. Let's get at the views that are offered to explain the data, Calvinism, Arminianism, Molinism, open theism, and let's avoid the name-calling and labeling "semi-pelegianism" and focus on which view best explains all the data of scripture.
Sorry to interrupt, but I'd just like to mention the verses following Matt 19:24, in v 25 & 26 we see how the disciples were amazed asking "how can anyone be saved" and Jesus answered them saying, "with man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible".

So, I don't think that Matt, 19:24 can be used to support the Arminian view as Jesus effectively said in v 26 that salvation is impossible for man but only possible with God.
 
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Uber Genius

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There is Unconditional Molinism (Calvinism Lite) and Conditional Molinism (Arminianism).

Unconditional Molinism basically says that God unconditionally elects what world (out an infinite possibility of worlds); He sovereignly chooses that world out of an infinite number of worlds for those individuals to be saved. The problem that the Molinist does not understand is that those who were saved at Sodom and Gomorrah under a different scenario is that the Lord knew that these individuals would not endure to the end to salvation. A person can be saved for a time. So then why does God allow for believers to fall away in other instances? Because God needs to warn the believer to endure to the end. The Molinist is saying that there are others in another possible universe or world that could have endured to the end to salvation and been eternally saved, but God simply sovereignly decrees that they were not saved and He chooses the world he wants.

Unconditional Molinism is a lite version of Calvinism. It makes for an allowance for free will of man in choosing God, but in certain instances, some will not be saved because God may choose a world where a person is not permanently saved for all time (When they could have been). Molinists adhere to Unconditional Election because God sovereignly decrees which world is best for people to be saved but some will not make it (when they could have made it in another world). Unconditional Election means God is not choosing anyone based on any conditions within the individual. Yet, Molinists recognize that a believer has to respond to God in order to have salvation out of the illumination of God under Prevenient Grace.

Arminianism is not inconsistent with middle knowledge or possibilities. 1 Peter 1:1-2 says God the Father elects according to His foreknowledge. God is good. God is love. So God would not allow for a world where one believer would perish (if he could have been saved for all time in another world).

While I think that it is possible to construe Arminianism as molinist in nature, and some scholars do, most scholars reject that notion and I have cited a couple examples below. Further Arminians argue that to use middle knowledge would be to determine people's actions (misunderstanding the false concept of fatalism qua middle knowledge).

I'm a former Arminian turned Molinist and find that while that Jacob Arminius seems to have been informed by Luis de Molina's work, he and modern Arminian scholars reject middle knowledge as a way that God fulfilled his creative activity and balanced his sovereign purpose with free agents.

See Roger Olsen's work here: Are Arminian Theology and Middle Knowledge Compatible?

Another scholar, Kirk MacGreggor (Molina scholar) suggests Arminius got Molina wrong is several areas:

"
He outlines four ways Molina found Arminius’s version of middle knowledge “incoherent” in light of his doctrine:

  1. God’s decision to create the world was made before he knew whether this world would be worth creating, and whether anyone would have freely received Christ;
  2. God lacked the freedom to create a world that didn’t feature the incarnation of Christ, which seemed to Molina a denial of God’s sovereignty;
  3. Arminius’s version grounded middle knowledge on God’s decision to create free creatures and on the potential of these free creatures themselves, many of whom would never exist, undermining divine perfection;
  4. Arminius claimed God decreed salvation for all who received Christ before apprehending his middle knowledge, which meant some individuals obligated God to save them"
For more see: 3 Misconceptions of One of the Most Unknown,… | Zondervan Academic

I agree that molinism has become (in the last 25 years) a big tent that blurs the lines of Calvinism and Arminianism. But I encourage those who have the capability intellectually to put the biblical data of God's sovereignty and Man's free will and examine the four inferences about those data with an eye to which view best explains the data.
 
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That was from John 15:16, but...
With all due respect, Universalism is not technically 'heresy'. In the earliest Christian centuries, such a belief was not uncommon and was supported by some of the Church Fathers. A condemnation of Universalism was not included in either the Apostles' Creed or Nicene Creed. Universalism has always been around and is finding quite a resurgence to its dissemination via the internet, and books such as The Christian Universalist by Robin Parry.

I hope you read all of chapter John 15.

2. Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away

14 You are My friends if you do whatever I command you.

Jesus died for the whole world, but not all of the world will remain and not be lopped off because they did not keep the commands of Jesus.

Partial truths taking one verse out of the context of the whole like many have done produces heresies. Two heresies in the Church are Universalism and OSAS.
 
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This is not helpful. It is a fallacy known as cherry-picking the data!

We need to avoid rhetorical flourish that defends our cherished beleifs in order to cooly and calmly reflect on all the data of scripture.

The following is excerpted from:Biblical Defense of Arminianism | Evidence Unseen

"
In the OT, God enabled the freewill of the people to choose him (Josh. 24:15; Isa. 50:2; Jer. 1:6; 2:13-14; 7:13; 13:10; 26:2-3; Ex. 3:11; 4:1-13; Hos. 11:1-9; Ps. 78:10; 81:11-13; Jer. 32:33). Consider several examples:

(Isa. 65:12) “I will destine you for the sword, and all of you will bow down to the slaughter. Because I called, but you did not answer; I spoke, but you did not hear. And you did evil in My sight and chose that in which I did not delight.

(Prov. 1:24) “I called and you refused, I stretched out my hand and no one paid attention.”

(Jer. 18:8) “If that nation I warned repents of its evil, then I will relent and not inflict on it the disaster I had planned.”

(Ps. 81:11-14) “My people did not listen to My voice, and Israel did not obey Me. 12 So I gave them over to the stubbornness of their heart, to walk in their own devices. 13 Oh that My people would listen to Me, that Israel would walk in My ways! 14 I would quickly subdue their enemies and turn My hand against their adversaries.”

(Jer. 7:23-26) “This is what I commanded them, saying, ‘Obey My voice, and I will be your God, and you will be My people; and you will walk in all the way which I command you, that it may be well with you.’ 24 Yet they did not obey or incline their ear, but walked in their own counsels and in the stubbornness of their evil heart, and went backward and not forward. 25 Since the day that your fathers came out of the land of Egypt until this day, I have sent you all My servants the prophets, daily rising early and sending them. 26 Yet they did not listen to Me or incline their ear, but stiffened their neck; they did more evil than their fathers” (Jer. 7:23-26). The larger context shows that God gave them a choice to obey and be forgiven, but they refused to do so (Jer. 7:1-22).

(Hos. 11:1-2 NIV) “When Israel was a child, I loved him, and out of Egypt I called my son. 2 But the more I called Israel, the further they went from me. They sacrificed to the Baals and they burned incense to images.”

3. Freewill is taught throughout the Bible
The Bible teaches freewill from one end to the other. It contains a number of broad, sweeping teachings that support the traditional concept of libertarian freewill. Even Reformed authors like D.A. Carson acknowledge these clear and perspicuous teachings of Scripture:[7]

(1) God calls on people to obey, choose, and believe in him (Jn. 15:10; Josh. 24:15; Jn. 3:18). These calls would be nonsense, if we are not free moral agents.

(2) The very fact that we can sin implies freedom of the will, unless we are claiming that God is the agent of sin.

(3) God judges us (1 Cor. 3:10-15; Rev. 20:11-15). Humans are rewarded and punished according to their actions. Judgment only makes sense, if we are free to choose and culpable for our choices.

(4) God tests his people, which implies our ability to pass or fail (Gen. 22:1; Jas. 1:12; 1 Pet. 1:6-7; 1 Cor. 10:13).

(5) Prayers are not scripted; they are free expressions of the heart (see the Psalms for good examples of this).

(6) God pleads with sinners to repent, which would only make sense in light of free moral decision (Ezek. 18:23-32; 33:11).

(7) God desires all men to believe in him (1 Tim. 2:4; 2 Pet. 3:9; Jn. 12:32). Consider this. An omnipotent being “desires” something that clearly is not happening. Something must be stopping God from doing what he wants to do. Freewill is the most likely solution to this problem (Lk. 7:30; Acts 7:51; Mt. 23:3, 37; Mt. 6:10; Jn. 7:17).

(8) God himself is a free moral agent, who is not determined (Rev. 4:11). Therefore, even the determinist will admit that it is not necessary for all decision to be determined. Jesus was not determined; instead, he submitted his will to the Father’s will (Lk. 22:42).

One final passage should be considered in this regard: Matthew 19:24. Jesus says, “It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God.” What exactly could this verse mean from a Calvinist perspective? Arminian scholar Roger Olson comments, “What sense does this verse make in light of irresistible grace? Is Jesus saying it is harder for God to save a rich man than a poor one? How could that be? If everyone, without exception, only gets into the kingdom of God by God’s work alone without any required cooperation on his or her part, then Jesus’ saying makes no sense at all.”[8]

The whole of scripture appeals to man to make choices based on testimony and evidence 1000s of times. Those who reject God's will are punished as examples for free agents to use in gaining wisdom of how to act. To deny these facts using scripture is again to cherry-pick the data horribly.

Your cogent rhetorical flourish above suggests that you have the capability to study and argue the scriptures, why then choose such a fallacious method to repsent your view of god's sovereignty and man's responsibility followed by the snide comment "I hope this helps?"

Let's strive together to have a conversation free of manipulation and appeals to fallacious methods. Let's get at the views that are offered to explain the data, Calvinism, Arminianism, Molinism, open theism, and let's avoid the name-calling and labeling "semi-pelegianism" and focus on which view best explains all the data of scripture.
Since when is a slave free?
Since when is one in bondage to sin free ?
Since when are the dead in trespasses and sins alive ?

You have to redefine freedom , bondage and slave to get out of your theological pickle known as free will. Also it’s not found in scripture.

The only ones free not to sin are only those who are born again saints not sinners.

And scripture NEVER refers to the saints as sinners but holy , righteous etc.....

I’ll stick with my original post which is the biblical model concerning mans condition apart from God.

hope this helps !!!
 
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Sorry to interrupt, but I'd just like to mention the verses following Matt 19:24, in v 25 & 26 we see how the disciples were amazed asking "how can anyone be saved" and Jesus answered them saying, "with man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible".

So, I don't think that Matt, 19:24 can be used to support the Arminian view as Jesus effectively said in v 26 that salvation is impossible for man but only possible with God.
So, read Olsen's point above again.

If saving is only a function of God's will then we would expect entering the kingdom of God would be EQUALLY EASY FOR ALL MEN!

Not hard for some (rich), and easier for others (say poor).

Either Jesus is giving us a false statement or a human attribute (richness) somehow limits God's will. If indeed Peter's idea that God wants all to come to a knowledge of him and none to perish, is true.
 
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If they were the same nature, then there would be no distinction. Throughout scripture distinctions are made. Those in the flesh (natural man) cannot please God. Which means that there’s nothing in him that would make a choice that pleasing to God.
The distinction comes through regeneration in my belief. Which brings me back to the animal issue, we are all made in His image therefore we all have His love and equal chance to be in the Kingdom of God. If only a few humans in God's creation had the ability to choose Him, that would make the rest of His creation no better than the animals.
I fear we will go round and round on this as we have a different perspective on the matter. Be blessed!
 
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We bear fruit. There’s no reason to be cut off. If we start bearing less fruit, the Vinedresser prunes us so that we start bearing more fruit again.
Yes and those who even have a basic knowledge of agricultural understand the concept. I have 35 different fruit trees and 25 different grapes and berries that I prune twice a year.

Good post !
 
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When denominations mix OSAS with antinomianism, that is heresy, and I've seen people of the forums say their spirit is saved, but their flesh isn't.
Ok, so I hear you saying OSAS is not really heresy, but what makes "it" so is the fact that antinomians take it out of its proper context and turn it into something wicked. This is what I get from your response.

However, let me take the statement you made in its proper context:
"I've seen people of the forums say their spirit is saved, but their flesh isn't."
If they are trying to use this idea to justify their sins, then I agree. However, this statement is true also in its proper context. Think about it - Paul wrote "the body is dead because of sin, but the spirit is alive because of righteousness." And do we not also hope with perseverance for the resurrection from the dead (Rom. 8:23-25)? Does not the NT say that our bodies are yet to be redeemed? Therefore the flesh is not yet saved.

Chances are, if someone is antinomian, they are confused about how words are defined in the Bible. For example, they may confuse Paul's usage of the word "flesh" in various contexts with various meanings. Sometimes it means literal flesh, that is, the human body. Sometimes it means natural feelings. Sometimes it is used as a figure of speech meaning the sinful nature.

This very confusion was inherent in the initial translation of the NIV. If you investigate NIV texts earlier than about 1983, you can see it. I suspect the publishers corrected it because of complaints from respectable scholars.

So then, just to be clear, I'd like you to admit that the OSAS doctrine is not a heresy in and of itself, since this is what you appear to be saying in your responses. Since any truth at all can be taken out of context and misused, it is the misuse that is heresy, and not the truth itself. Do you agree?
TD:)
 
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Good Day, CharismaticLady

I do not see Paul making such distinctions... But I do understand what you are getting at.

Not all men have Faith, because not all men have been granted it.

PHP 1 :29 For it has been granted to you that for the sake of Christ you should not only believe in him but also suffer for his sake, engaged in the same conflict that you saw I had and now hear that I still have.

In Him,

Bill
Paul did not make distinctions in kinds of faith, but James did. (I agree with you, I'm just pointing to the wider context of scripture).
TD:)
 
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While I think that it is possible to construe Arminianism as molinist in nature, and some scholars do, most scholars reject that notion and I have cited a couple examples below. Further Arminians argue that to use middle knowledge would be to determine people's actions (misunderstanding the false concept of fatalism qua middle knowledge).

I'm a former Arminian turned Molinist and find that while that Jacob Arminius seems to have been informed by Luis de Molina's work, he and modern Arminian scholars reject middle knowledge as a way that God fulfilled his creative activity and balanced his sovereign purpose with free agents.

See Roger Olsen's work here: Are Arminian Theology and Middle Knowledge Compatible?

Another scholar, Kirk MacGreggor (Molina scholar) suggests Arminius got Molina wrong is several areas:

"
He outlines four ways Molina found Arminius’s version of middle knowledge “incoherent” in light of his doctrine:

  1. God’s decision to create the world was made before he knew whether this world would be worth creating, and whether anyone would have freely received Christ;
  2. God lacked the freedom to create a world that didn’t feature the incarnation of Christ, which seemed to Molina a denial of God’s sovereignty;
  3. Arminius’s version grounded middle knowledge on God’s decision to create free creatures and on the potential of these free creatures themselves, many of whom would never exist, undermining divine perfection;
  4. Arminius claimed God decreed salvation for all who received Christ before apprehending his middle knowledge, which meant some individuals obligated God to save them"
For more see: 3 Misconceptions of One of the Most Unknown,… | Zondervan Academic

I agree that molinism has become (in the last 25 years) a big tent that blurs the lines of Calvinism and Arminianism. But I encourage those who have the capability intellectually to put the biblical data of God's sovereignty and Man's free will and examine the four inferences about those data with an eye to which view best explains the data.

Would you say that you believe in Compatibilism according to this article?

Compatibilism

I believe we have limited free will. Our outside circumstances while they can influence us are not always the cause for what we decide. Two twin brothers can be in the same set of circumstances and yet they can each make different choices. Cain and Abel were brothers. They were in the same situation. Yet, they each made different choices in how to worship God. God later reasoned with Cain in doing good vs. evil. If God wanted Cain to do evil as a part of this universe, then God would not try to reason with Cain in doing good. I believe God always wants us to do good because there is no darkness in God. But God does place tests upon us to show whether or not we truly love Him or not. He tests us. Yes, God determines certain things, and even nudges us to recognize Him or to follow His good ways, but it is still ultimately up to us (Despite any outside circumstances). We are not always what we are based on our circumstances. Many people have risen above their circumstances.

What may or may not have happened in another universe does not mean that God predetermines out free will choices. Yes, they can influence us or nudge us to a degree, but at the end of the day, we still have our free will choice to make and we will be held accountable by what we do and not by what God does in this world vs. some alternate reality.
 
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Since when is a slave free?
Since when is one in bondage to sin free ?
Since when are the dead in trespasses and sins alive ?

You have to redefine freedom , bondage and slave to get out of your theological pickle known as free will. Also it’s not found in scripture.

The only ones free not to sin are only those who are born again saints not sinners.

And scripture NEVER refers to the saints as sinners but holy , righteous etc.....

I’ll stick with my original post which is the biblical model concerning mans condition apart from God.

hope this helps !!!
Snide again?

It doesn't help. It is wanting both emotionally and intellectually.

It is manipulative.

It is pejorative and does little in the way to persuade with rational argument.

Saying you would stick with your original cherry-picking the data only demonstrates a desire to make the data of scripture support your view not scripture shape your view.

You were free to argue, and many do, for Monergism.

Many scholars argue that your view is the best explanation of all the data not your cherry-picked version.

My goal was to help you improve your approach to scripture. But with your postmodern approach (making scripture say what ever you want it to) there is no hope for dialog.

Congrats, you made it to the ignored list.
 
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