You did not chose Me, I chose you.

[Maria Billingsley]

You do understand that there’s a change, right? That’s why he said we formerly lived like that. We no longer do. Our nature has been changed. Those in flesh cannot please God.

Yes we agree and that is exactly what I said. Where we diverge is the meaning of being made in the "image of God", namely, free will to choose and God's will that is realized through the freedom of man to choose. You do know God has free will right? After all, He created us and saw that it "was good". He did not create us to be like the animals or it be in direct opposition to Him. He gave us more intellect for the sole purpose of His actualization.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I wonder if in your understanding Thomism can essentially be reconciled with Calvinism (XL - ie not Calvinism Lite!)

Thomas Aquinas said in his Summa Theologiae:

“The reason for the predestination of some and reprobation of others (praedestinationis aliquorum, et reprobationis aliorum) must be sought for in the divine goodness.... God wills to manifest his goodness in those whom he predestines, by means of the mercy with which he spares them; and in respect of others whom he reprobates, by means of the justice with which he punishes them. This is the reason why God chooses some (quosdam eligit) and reprobates others (quosdam reprobat).... Yet why he chooses some for glory and reprobates others has no reason except the divine will (non habet rationem nisi divinam voluntatem).”​

It appears Thomas is in favor of something like Calvinism (if I am understanding him correctly). If I am understanding him correctly, the problem is simply slapping the label "good" on something that is not good in how it plays out. Such a thing does not compute. God electing to salvation and electing to reprobation for a greater good would have to take into account the individual's intentions or desires to truly be with God and to serve and worship Him. Seeing that this is not how election and reprobation is generally understood, we have to toss out Thomas Aquinas's thinking here (if indeed he is thinking of election and reprobation as 5 point Calvinists do).

 

[renniks]

That was from John 15:16, but...


I hope you read all of chapter John 15.

2. Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away

14 You are My friends if you do whatever I command you.

Jesus died for the whole world, but not all of the world will remain and not be lopped off because they did not keep the commands of Jesus.

Partial truths taking one verse out of the context of the whole like many have done produces heresies. Two heresies in the Church are Universalism and OSAS.

Bam! Ok I agree except, I don't believe anyone keeps the commandments perfectly. What does remaining in Christ mean? Belief in him, IMO.

 

[CharismaticLady]

Bam! Ok I agree except, I don't believe anyone keeps the commandments perfectly. What does remaining in Christ mean? Belief in him, IMO.

To break one of the Ten Commandments would be a sin unto death. Would you really kill somebody? So when you say you don't believe anyone keeps the commandments perfectly, what specifically are you talking about.

 

[Maria Billingsley]

To break one of the Ten Commandments would be a sin unto death. Would you really kill somebody? So when you say you don't believe anyone keeps the commandments perfectly, what specifically are you talking about.

Actually to sin unto death is to reject Jesus Christ of Nazareth, God in the flesh, till physical death over takes you.

 

[CharismaticLady]

Actually to sin unto death is to reject Jesus Christ of Nazareth, God in the flesh, till physical death over takes you.

In other words to never become a Christian's brethren?

 

[Maria Billingsley]

In other words to never become a Christian's brethren?

yes! Never become a Christian at all.

 

[CharismaticLady]

yes! Never become a Christian at all.

Then read it again.

1 John 5:16-17
16 If anyone sees his brother sinning a sin which does not lead to death, he will ask, and He will give him life for those who commit sin not leading to death. There is sin leading to death. I do not say that he should pray about that. 17 All unrighteousness is sin, and there is sin not leading to death.

That would mean that we can't pray for our family members that are not saved.

A sin unto death is a WILLFUL sin against God and His laws. It is lawlessness.

Hebrews 10:26-31
26 For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries. 28 Anyone who has rejected Moses’ law dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know Him who said, “Vengeance is Mine, I will repay,” says the Lord. And again, “The Lord will judge His people.” 31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

Was that person a Christian?

 

[DamianWarS]

If you are correct, then everyone who hears the gospel has faith.

Faith comes from hearing doesn't demand that everyone who hears has faith it means those who have faith got it from hearing.

 

[Hammster]

Some believe they have faith in Christ, but believe He covers our sins while we keep committing them, and the righteousness we have is merely imputed righteousness, but we, ourselves, are sinners. That doctrine is heresy.

I guess Paul was a heretic.


What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh, has found? For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.” Now to the one who works, his wage is not credited as a favor, but as what is due. But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness, just as David also speaks of the blessing on the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works:
“Blessed are those whose lawless deeds have been forgiven,
And whose sins have been covered.
“Blessed is the man whose sin the Lord will not take into account.”
— Romans 4:1-8

 

[Hammster]

Yes we agree and that is exactly what I said. Where we diverge is the meaning of being made in the "image of God", namely, free will to choose and God's will that is realized through the freedom of man to choose. You do know God has free will right? After all, He created us and saw that it "was good". He did not create us to be like the animals or it be in direct opposition to Him. He gave us more intellect for the sole purpose of His actualization.

The natural man chooses according to his nature. The spiritual man chooses according to his nature. Nowhere have I indicated that the natural man is like an animal.

 

[Hammster]

Faith comes from hearing doesn't demand that everyone who hears has faith it means those who have faith got it from hearing.

I know that. But the argument I responded to stated that everyone has faith.

 

[Maria Billingsley]

The natural man chooses according to his nature. The spiritual man chooses according to his nature. Nowhere have I indicated that the natural man is like an animal.

I am not saying you did indicate this. Just making a distinction between man and animal when referring to man that is made in the image of God.

 

[Maria Billingsley]

The natural man chooses according to his nature. The spiritual man chooses according to his nature.

I see that both have the same nature as they are made in God's image. One is not regenerated and the other is regenerated resulting in one man remaining in his natural state of condemnation and the other receiving redemption making him a new man spiritually.. Both maintain the ability to choose their path.

 

[CharismaticLady]

I guess Paul was a heretic.


What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh, has found? For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.” Now to the one who works, his wage is not credited as a favor, but as what is due. But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness, just as David also speaks of the blessing on the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works:
“Blessed are those whose lawless deeds have been forgiven,
And whose sins have been covered.
“Blessed is the man whose sin the Lord will not take into account.”
— Romans 4:1-8

What is it you believe I am believing that Paul doesn't?

 

[Hammster]

I am not saying you did indicate this. Just making a distinction between man and animal when referring to man that is made in the image of God.

Okay. That has nothing to do with anything that I’ve said or implied, though.

Anyway, moving on.

 

[Hammster]

I see that both have the same nature as they are made in God's image. One is not regenerated and the other is regenerated resulting in one man remaining in his natural state of condemnation and the other receiving redemption making him a new man spiritually.. Both maintain the ability to choose their path.

If they were the same nature, then there would be no distinction. Throughout scripture distinctions are made. Those in the flesh (natural man) cannot please God. Which means that there’s nothing in him that would make a choice that pleasing to God.

 

[CharismaticLady]

The natural man chooses according to his nature. The spiritual man chooses according to his nature. Nowhere have I indicated that the natural man is like an animal.

You are not saying that they are the same person are you? Is the spiritual man a sinner?

 

[Hammster]

What is it you believe I am believing that Paul doesn't?

Imputed righteousness.

 

[Hammster]

You are not saying that they are the same person are you? Is the spiritual man a sinner?

The spiritual man still sins. But the spiritual man is repentant.