Why we are not supposed to keep the Sabbath

[Leaf473]

Hi trophy33,

To be fair, your supplied premises did not reveal anything on which they were based. So my "straw men" were developed based on your vacuum of information.

What I'm noticing about your responses to my rebuttal as well as that of others is that you are continuing in this vacuum.

You neglect to acknowledge what the Bible clearly says and instead focus on the nebulous and obscure.

Do you believe that all humans have been told about the Sabbath? Is there a Bible passage that talks about this?

Bible Gateway passage: Romans 2:15 - Easy-to-Read Version

They show that in their hearts they know what is right and wrong, the same as the law commands, and their consciences agree. Sometimes their thoughts tell them that they have done wrong, and this makes them guilty. And sometimes their thoughts tell them that they have done right, and this makes...

www.biblegateway.com

No, although this is the reason behind why Jesus says the Sabbath was instituted (i.e., "For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, but he rested on the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy."). Btw, this is not the language of hyperbole, symbolism, or a parable. This is a statement of fact. There would be no reason to appeal to a made up event as the basis for a once a week remembrance of an event that never happened. That's absurd.

For a more thorough response as to why I observe the Sabbath see the thread, "Ten Reasons I'm a Sabbatarian."

What do you think Peter meant when he said:

2 Peter 3:5​

But they deliberately forget that long ago by God’s word the heavens came into being and the earth was formed out of water and by water.​

Could this text be written in reference to people like yourself who "deliberately forget" that God created the heavens and the earth by His "word"? Do you also "deliberately forget" that by the word of Jesus people were healed; demons were cast out; a storm was silenced; the dead were raised; etc.? Is the God you believe in the all powerful God of the Bible who can speak creation into existence with a word? Or is your god a limited god; a finite god; a god created in the image of man? Is your god impotent, or omnipotent?

I pray this helps.

But for the grace of God go I,cyspark

 

[trophy33]

What do you think Peter meant when he said:

2 Peter 3:5​

But they deliberately forget that long ago by God’s word the heavens came into being and the earth was formed out of water and by water.​

This would be your part of refuting the 3rd premise, but its out of place now. First, we must agree with the form and logical correctness of the premises and of the conclusion.

Or else it will turn to usual chaos and the loss of focus.

 

[Bob S]

Did the Gospel that was to be spread to all nations include Sabbath observance? My bobservation is that it was not and I base that on the fact that there is no historical evidence that anyone other than Israel has ever been subject to that requirement.

Whether or not the Genesis account of creation is literal the fact is that God did require Israel to observe many rituals including the weekly Sabbath. Sabbath keeping became part of the Mosaic Covenant which has been replaced with the eternal new and better covenant.

 

[Icyspark]

The Sabbath is first mentioned in Genesis, and the Sabbath commandment is first mentioned in Exodus

Here we see God ending the Sabbath, but I don't think he is ending the Sabbath commandment

Bible Gateway passage: Hosea 2:11 - New American Standard Bible

I will also put an end to all her joy, Her feasts, her new moons, her Sabbaths, And all her festivals.

www.biblegateway.com

Hi Leaf473,

Tell me more. What do you mean when you say God is "ending the Sabbath," but not "ending the Sabbath commandment"?

But for the grace of God go I,cyspark

 

[Leaf473]

Did the Gospel that was to be spread to all nations include Sabbath observance?

I don't think so. This scripture came to mind

Bible Gateway passage: Acts 21:20 - Easy-to-Read Version

When the leaders heard this, they praised God. Then they said to Paul, “Brother, you can see that thousands of Jews have become believers, but they think it is very important to obey the Law of Moses.

www.biblegateway.com

The leaders in Jerusalem that Paul meets think it is remarkable that many Jewish believers want to observe the law of Moses. I take this to mean that the gentiles away from Jerusalem weren't following the law of Moses, including the weekly Sabbath rituals

My bobservation is that it was not and I base that on the fact that there is no historical evidence that anyone other than Israel has ever been subject to that requirement.

Whether or not the Genesis account of creation is literal the fact is that God did require Israel to observe many rituals including the weekly Sabbath. Sabbath keeping became part of the Mosaic Covenant which has been replaced with the eternal new and better covenant.

 

[Leaf473]

Hi Leaf473,

Tell me more. What do you mean when you say God is "ending the Sabbath," but not "ending the Sabbath commandment"?

But for the grace of God go I,cyspark

Sure, and thanks for asking

With respect to the OP's request to keep things closely related to the first post, I'll try to explain this way and see if we're communicating

Related to premise #3, does it matter if what God sanctified and rested on was a literal 24-hour day, or would it make a difference if it were an era?

 

[Icyspark]

This would be your part of refuting the 3rd premise, but its out of place now. First, we must agree with the form and logical correctness of the premises and of the conclusion.

Or else it will turn to usual chaos and the loss of focus.

Hi trophy33,

This is weird. It seems like you're attempting to embrace Christianity, while at the same time keeping it at arm's length. Why do you want to ignore Bible texts which refute your theistic evolutionary beliefs? That's not a good tactic if you're really wanting to understand truth.

I don't accept "the form and logical correctness of the premises." You are attempting to put the horse of your unsubstantiated assertions ahead of the cart of biblical realities. This is generally what I encounter with critics. They don't supply evidence for their beliefs, but expect others to bow to their undefined terms.

Try engaging with my rebuttals to your premises instead of blithely dismissing them with a wave of your hand.

But for the grace of God go I,cyspark

 

[Icyspark]

Sure, and thanks for asking

With respect to the OP's request to keep things closely related to the first post, I'll try to explain this way and see if we're communicating

Related to premise #3, does it matter if what God sanctified and rested on was a literal 24-hour day, or would it make a difference if it were an era?

Hi Leaf473,

That didn't answer my question. I asked, "What do you mean when you say God is 'ending the Sabbath," but not "ending the Sabbath commandment'?"

God bless!

But for the grace of God go I,cyspark

 

[Leaf473]

Hi Leaf473,

That didn't answer my question. I asked, "What do you mean when you say God is 'ending the Sabbath," but not "ending the Sabbath commandment'?"

God bless!

But for the grace of God go I,cyspark

I agree it doesn't answer your question I was laying the groundwork, defining the terms

You wrote earlier

According to the Bible, the Sabbath finds its origin in Genesis 2:1-3, not in Exodus.

Is that the 7th 24-hour day in Genesis 2:1-3? Or the 7th era?

If we don't define the terms, we'll end up going in circles

Bible Gateway passage: Genesis 2:2 - Easy-to-Read Version

God finished the work he was doing, so on the seventh day he rested from his work.

www.biblegateway.com

 

[guevaraj]

Who is the "us" that you are saying God has been with from the beginning?

Brother, "us" refers to the human race.

Then Jesus said to them, “The Sabbath was made to meet the needs of people, and not people to meet the requirements of the Sabbath. (Mark 2:27 NLT)​

United in our hope for the soon return of Jesus, Jorge

 

[guevaraj]

If the world was not created in 6 literal days and if God did not rest on the 7th day from his work, literally, will your case for the literal 7th day keeping still stand?

Brother, yes! We have direct instructions from God regarding Sabbath observance in Jerusalem that do not need to be understood to be obeyed in Jerusalem. This passage verifies when the Sabbath begins and ends in Jerusalem, kept to this day by the Jews since Jesus.

It shall be to you a Sabbath of solemn rest, and you shall afflict yourselves. On the ninth day of the month beginning at evening, from evening to evening shall you keep your Sabbath.” (Leviticus 23:32 ESV)​

United in our hope for the soon return of Jesus, Jorge

 

[Icyspark]

I agree it doesn't answer your question I was laying the groundwork, defining the terms

You wrote earlier

Is that the 7th 24-hour day in Genesis 2:1-3? Or the 7th era?

If we don't define the terms, we'll end up going in circles

Bible Gateway passage: Genesis 2:2 - Easy-to-Read Version

God finished the work he was doing, so on the seventh day he rested from his work.

www.biblegateway.com

Hi Leaf473,

I'm sorry. For some reason I was thinking when I asked you to tell me more about your statement:

Here we see God ending the Sabbath, but I don't think he is ending the Sabbath commandment​

And you responded with:

Sure, and thanks for asking ​

My conclusion—based on the common usage of the word, "Sure"—lead me to believe that an answer to the question I asked was forthcoming. Does your equivocating, perfunctory response mean that I need to have you define the term "Sure"? I could be wrong, but it appears to me you're the one creating your own circles.

How about you stay focused on the question I asked about your own statement before you try changing the subject? Do you know what you meant, or is there no meaning behind it? If you can't define your own statement then why bother asking me to define terms not under discussion?

God bless!

But for the grace of God go I,cyspark

 

[guevaraj]

Were all humans told to stay where they are on the 7th Day, or just the Israelites in the wilderness?

Brother, this was said to those who listened to God at that time, to whom we are compared in our time.

God’s promise of entering his rest still stands, so we ought to tremble with fear that some of you might fail to experience it. For this good news—that God has prepared this rest—has been announced to us just as it was to them. But it did them no good because they didn’t share the faith of those who listened to God. For only we who believe can enter his rest. As for the others, God said, “In my anger I took an oath: ‘They will never enter my place of rest,’” even though this rest has been ready since he made the world. We know it is ready because of the place in the Scriptures where it mentions the seventh day: “On the seventh day God rested from all his work.” But in the other passage God said, “They will never enter my place of rest.” So God’s rest is there for people to enter, but those who first heard this good news failed to enter because they disobeyed God. So God set another time for entering his rest, and that time is today. God announced this through David much later in the words already quoted: “Today when you hear his voice, don’t harden your hearts.” Now if Joshua had succeeded in giving them this rest, God would not have spoken about another day of rest still to come. So there is a special rest still waiting for the people of God. For all who have entered into God’s rest have rested from their labors, just as God did after creating the world. So let us do our best to enter that rest. But if we disobey God, as the people of Israel did, we will fall. (Hebrews 4:1-11 NLT)​

United in our hope for the soon return of Jesus, Jorge

 

[trophy33]

Why do you want to ignore Bible texts

I did not say to ignore it, I said we must do something else first. To keep some order of things and focus.

I don't accept "the form and logical correctness of the premises."

With the logical correctness of the premises and of the conclusion. If you agree that if the premises are true, the conclusion is true. Its really quite hard to get the Sabbath keepers here to cooperate with a simple formal argument or to even grasp what it is. So far, none got it.

I do not need you to agree with the premises. I need you to agree that if the premises are true, the conclusion is true. This is my last try, though.

 

[trophy33]

Brother, yes! We have direct instructions from God regarding Sabbath observance in Jerusalem that do not need to be understood to be obeyed in Jerusalem. This passage verifies when the Sabbath begins and ends in Jerusalem, kept to this day by the Jews since Jesus.

It shall be to you a Sabbath of solemn rest, and you shall afflict yourselves. On the ninth day of the month beginning at evening, from evening to evening shall you keep your Sabbath.” (Leviticus 23:32 ESV)​

United in our hope for the soon return of Jesus, Jorge

When you read "you" in Leviticus, it means the Mosaic Israel. Not you or me. To make the Sabbath keeping universally valid - for you and me - you need to base it on something more universal than Leviticus (which is a Mosaic Covenant book given to ancient Israel). See the premise #1 in the OP.

Thats how we get to the creation story (and the premise #3 in the OP) - its the universality the Sabbath keepers usually point out, believing that:
a) its literal
b) its a book that is not a prelude/part of the Mosaic Law only, but has been given to all cultures in all times

When you read the OP, do you agree that if all premises are true, the conclusion is true? If you do, we can talk about whether the premises are true or whether you can prove them false.

 

[Leaf473]

Brother, "us" refers to the human race.

Then Jesus said to them, “The Sabbath was made to meet the needs of people, and not people to meet the requirements of the Sabbath. (Mark 2:27 NLT)​

United in our hope for the soon return of Jesus, Jorge

Thanks, brother

And do you believe that God told all people about the Sabbath?

 

[Leaf473]

Hi Leaf473,

I'm sorry. For some reason I was thinking when I asked you to tell me more about your statement:

Here we see God ending the Sabbath, but I don't think he is ending the Sabbath commandment​

And you responded with:

Sure, and thanks for asking ​

My conclusion—based on the common usage of the word, "Sure"—

...lead me to believe that an answer to the question I asked was forthcoming

It is forthcoming But a good answer will take some time

I wrote

The Sabbath is first mentioned in Genesis, and the Sabbath commandment is first mentioned in Exodus

Here we see God ending the Sabbath, but I don't think he is ending the Sabbath commandment

Bible Gateway passage: Hosea 2:11 - New American Standard Bible

I will also put an end to all her joy, Her feasts, her new moons, her Sabbaths, And all her festivals.

www.biblegateway.com

You responded with

Hi Leaf473,

Tell me more. What do you mean when you say God is "ending the Sabbath," but not "ending the Sabbath commandment"?

But for the grace of God go I,cyspark

When you asked me to "Tell you more", I took that to mean you wanted an in-depth discussion

Note that the OP has requested that we stick closely to the opening post. Do you agree that's a good idea?

A proverb, which may or may not apply

Bible Gateway passage: Proverbs 16:24 - New American Standard Bible

Pleasant words are a honeycomb, Sweet to the soul and healing to the bones.

www.biblegateway.com

Does your equivocating, perfunctory response mean that I need to have you define the term "Sure"? I could be wrong, but it appears to me you're the one creating your own circles.

How about you stay focused on the question I asked about your own statement before you try changing the subject? Do you know what you meant, or is there no meaning behind it? If you can't define your own statement then why bother asking me to define terms not under discussion?

God bless!

But for the grace of God go I,cyspark

 

[Leaf473]

Brother, this was said to those who listened to God at that time, to whom we are compared in our time.

God’s promise of entering his rest still stands, so we ought to tremble with fear that some of you might fail to experience it. For this good news—that God has prepared this rest—has been announced to us just as it was to them. But it did them no good because they didn’t share the faith of those who listened to God. For only we who believe can enter his rest. As for the others, God said, “In my anger I took an oath: ‘They will never enter my place of rest,’” even though this rest has been ready since he made the world. We know it is ready because of the place in the Scriptures where it mentions the seventh day: “On the seventh day God rested from all his work.” But in the other passage God said, “They will never enter my place of rest.” So God’s rest is there for people to enter, but those who first heard this good news failed to enter because they disobeyed God. So God set another time for entering his rest, and that time is today. God announced this through David much later in the words already quoted: “Today when you hear his voice, don’t harden your hearts.” Now if Joshua had succeeded in giving them this rest, God would not have spoken about another day of rest still to come. So there is a special rest still waiting for the people of God. For all who have entered into God’s rest have rested from their labors, just as God did after creating the world. So let us do our best to enter that rest. But if we disobey God, as the people of Israel did, we will fall. (Hebrews 4:1-11 NLT)​

United in our hope for the soon return of Jesus, Jorge

Greetings, brother

The people who listened to God at that time, where they all gathered around mount Sinai? Or was God being heard by people all around the world?

 

[Jerry N.]

Brother, "us" refers to the human race.

Then Jesus said to them, “The Sabbath was made to meet the needs of people, and not people to meet the requirements of the Sabbath. (Mark 2:27 NLT)​

United in our hope for the soon return of Jesus, Jorge

The needs of people are to have closer relations to God and to worship Him. Keeping the Sabbath does that along with many other actions. That is why the Sabbath was made for people.

 

[Bob S]

Where in all scripture does God ever demand that Gentiles observe the rituals given to Israel at Sinai? Rituals given include the weekly Sabbath. if God has not demanded that Gentiles keep especially the weekly Sabbath why do some humans go over God's plan and threaten those who do not observe the Sabbath with finely losing their eternal reward?