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Where is "go to heaven" in the Bible?

oikonomia

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Hello again and God bless,

I can see where sone of these deep things can be misunderstood.
Greeting in the Lord.
I will be looking specifically for the answer to why you believe the Father is indwelling men before accomplishment of redemption
on the cross by Jesus Christ.

I cannot respond to all your comments this morning.
First, the only way that God could give the free gift to all men, the true Light that lighteth every man(John 1:9 KJV), the seed down, the word, Christ working inward. Is through Jesus Christ actual work in the flesh in time and his death and resurrection.
Okay. Here you affirm, I think, that His incarnation, life, death, and resurrection and becoming a life giving Spirit are critical for this indwelling of the Father.
But knowing this would be in time God was able to give to all the free gift that came upon all men.
I have a little trouble understanding this sentence.
The true Light that lighteth every man. So this inward working of God was in all(though not in union with them until repentance and faith ) but God still was working even in the Gentiles who have the work of the law written in their hearts.
What I am looking for is your reason for believing the Father was living in men before the new covenant.
There is no argument from me that God is light and His word is a light to our path throughout all history.
And that He strives with men's conscience is evident even in the time of Noah long before Christ's coming.

And Jehovah said, My Spirit will not strive with man forever, for he indeed is flesh; so his days will be one hundred twenty years. (Gen. 6:3)

God works on man's conscience, convicts, and enlightens men throughout history. This has to be true.
And He is referred to as the Father in lieu of His being the Creator is also true.

What I am looking for in your thoughts is more than God working on or even in man but His indwelling man as the divine Father
before the resurrection of Christ.

These are the secrets of men the hidden things. The mystery that hath been hid from ages which is Christ in you the hope of glory.

Jesus said(before the cross that he was in them (John 15) And we read of the Father speaking in them before the cross (Matthew 10). But they did not have the Holy Ghost given until Jesus was risen. He was with them as he was in OT times. But not in them. But this does not mean that Christ was not in them or the Father.
I would ask you then, IF they had not yet received the Holy Spirit how could the Father be indwelling them?

God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truthfulness. (John 4:24)
Consider,

John 15: 4. Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me. 5. I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.”

This shows that Christ was in them before the cross , the Son. He is the word down in them the seed.
So you believe before His death, resurrection, and becoming the divine life giving Spirit the Father was indwelling the disciples?

I see the point of highlighting God works with men to direct, convict, lead, enlighten, etc from Genesis on through the OT.

Do you think emphasising that God the Father was in men all along makes chapters 14 on in the Gospel of John somewhat
an anticlimax? I mean when in resurrection He appears alive to them and enacts the gesture of breathing into them saying "Receive the Holy Spirit" is rather unnecessary?

I hear you saying that before the Holy Spirit was breathed into them in John 20 the Father who is Spirit (John 4:24) was already indwelling them.

After considering this interpretation seriously I looked again and noticed this about "an hour is coming."

But an hour is coming, and it is now, when the true worshippers will worship the Father in spirit and truthfulness, for the Father also seeks such to worship Him. (John 4:33)


It is paradoxical to me that Jesus said "an hour is COMING, and it is NOW".
In light of your concept I could understand that the hour of the indwelling Father had come for SOME already.
So for them it need not BE coming.

I mused on the verse. And at present I think "an hour is coming, and it is now" refers probably to the fact that for Him - a man that hour
was already going on everyday of His life. He was like us a man. He was with the Father living in Him from incarnation and was throughout
His earthly life before the cross a true worshipper par excellence.

But for the rest of us who are men and women like Him, the hour of true worship was to COME.
It came after His death and resurrection to accomplish a removal of the veil seperating us from God.

Having therefore, brothers, boldness for entering the Holy of Holies in the blood of Jesus,
Which entrance He initiated for us as a new and living way through the veil, that is, His flesh, (Hebrews 10:19,20)


Suddenly I have no more time to write right now.
Be back latter.
 
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oikonomia

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Galatians 3: 16. Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ…29. And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.”
What I am looking for specifically are your reasons to believe the divine Father in the Triune God was indwelling people
before Christ's work of redemptive death and resurrection.

Here you refer to Galatians 3:16 as evidence for this. I may not comment too much now. It gives great opportunity to
get back into this book. I would like to come back to Galatians latter.

OT saints were born again by the word of God before the cross though not without the cross in time.
You want me to believe that the Old Testament believers were born again.
The word quickened them or made them alive.
If they were born again before Christ's coming to fulfill His ministry are you saying they were already quickened (made alive) and therefore were already born from above, born of the Spirit?

So are you saying that Nicodemus who came questioning Jesus in John chapter 3 was already quickened, made alive in his spirit, born from above as he conversed with Jesus?
They had a new creation in them a clean heart and the spirit of Christ in them.

Psalm 51: 10. Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me. 11. Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me. 12. Restore unto me the joy of thy salvation; and uphold me with thy free spirit.”
Okay, there are many passages in the Old Testament conveying something of God's work on people. And the case could be made
that all these refer to the indwelling of God's Spirit.

However, "Take not the Spirit of thy holiness from me" may not mean to take the Father out of from within me.

The influence of God's Spirit upon David could cause his heart to be cleaner than if there were no influence.
Samson had the Spirit of God come upon him mightily. I do not believe he had that clean of a heart or the Father's indwelling.

But that God worked upon men, came upon them somehow, influenced them, and caused His word to be a moral light
to their path in life surely didn't START with the new covenant church. With that I would agree.

My concern is this. John selects out of the enumerable and unwritten things Jesus spoke and did, a selection of particular things.
These he says he wrote that we might receive life in His name. (John 20:30,31)

Now in doing this John spends about half of the Gospel of John on things concerning His death and resurrection.
I would say chapters 14 through 21 are dedicated to Christ relationship to His disciples after His going to the cross.
If so much space in John's Gospel is dedicated to explaining how Jesus taught concerning this transitional event, why would
you labor to make it an anticlimax? I mean your take on John seems to lean towards teaching "Now don't think it was a major deal
that Jesus died, rose, or sends the Holy Spirit. All this was ALREADY in place all through the Old Testament."

Now I want to be fair to your concept. But I get the impression you are especially laboring to take out of the Gospel the uniqueness
of Christ's having to go to Calvary, resurrecting, and imparting the Holy Spirit into His disciples.

The general tone I pick up from you is that it is important to realize all this work of Jesus Christ is not ALL that unique.
Ie. Quite without what Jesus did we have the Father as living in men and women anyway back in Old Testament times.

Is that a fair impression of your labors to prove that David was born again anyway quite without the New Testament ?

If it is not fair to your way of teaching, what IS important about people realizing David was born again and had the Father living
in him prior to Christ coming?

Do you want Christians to understand that John chapters 14 through 20 are over appreciated?
 
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RocK Guy

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to assume God wants unclothed, naked souls in heaven OR heaven is the intended eternal destiny of Christians


We will be in a glorified body so we will not be nekkid, and wherever the Lord is... that IS Heaven


The souls seen underneath the altar in Revelation chapter 6 and the 5th seal are not in heaven.
"Underneath the altar" should mean underneath the earth.


That's your personal assumption. There is an alter in Heaven, so you'd be wrong:

Revelation 8:3
Another angel came and stood at the altar, holding a golden censer; and much incense was given to him, so that he might add it to the prayers of all the saints on the golden altar which was before the throne.

Revelation 8:5
Then the angel took the censer and filled it with the fire of the altar, and threw it to the earth; and there followed peals of thunder and sounds and flashes of lightning and an earthquake.

Revelation 9:13
Then the sixth angel sounded, and I heard a voice from the four horns of the golden altar which is before God,

Revelation 14:18
Then another angel, the one who has power over fire, came out from the altar; and he called with a loud voice to him who had the sharp sickle, saying, “Put in your sharp sickle and gather the clusters from the vine of the earth, because her grapes are ripe

Revelation 16:7
And I heard the altar saying, “Yes, O Lord God, the Almighty, true and righteous are Your judgments.



You have failed to understand that Jesus was victorious over death, hell, and the grave so men can become born again and abide IN CHRIST so there is no further need for Abraham's Bosom now.

When one has better understanding of what Jesus did thru His death, burial, and resurrection they know more that those looking only at what all went on before Jesus went to the Cross.

Feel free to believe whatever you want, but the rest of use Christians will be going in to the literal presence of the Father in Heaven where Jesus Christ is seated at His Right Hand when we die which is what Paul was speaking of in (2 Corinthians 5:8) as He is speaking of what happens AFTER Jesus was raised from the dead, not before as you are looking at.



Did Jesus on "this day" (the day of His crucifixion) go to Heaven? No. The Bible says He descended to the lower parts of the earth.


And, WHAT happened after?

Jesus was raised from the dead and He is currently in Heaven seated at the right hand of the Father.

Gotta look at the big picture man and get unstuck from what happened before His resurrection.
 
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oikonomia

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We will be in a glorified body so we will not be nekkid, and wherever the Lord is... that IS Heaven





That's your personal assumption. There is an alter in Heaven, so you'd be wrong:

Revelation 8:3
Another angel came and stood at the altar, holding a golden censer; and much incense was given to him, so that he might add it to the prayers of all the saints on the golden altar which was before the throne.
That is the incense altar not the bronze altar of sacrifice.

Revelation 8:5
Then the angel took the censer and filled it with the fire of the altar, and threw it to the earth; and there followed peals of thunder and sounds and flashes of lightning and an earthquake.
There was the bronze altar in the outer court where the beasts were slain.
And there is the golden altar of incense before the Holy of Holies in the Holy Place where incense (signifying prayer) was offered.

The altar of sacrifice is the one that John saw the souls of those who had died for their testimony.


Revelation 9:13
Then the sixth angel sounded, and I heard a voice from the four horns of the golden altar which is before God,
See? You confirm that the golden altar is distinct from the altar in the outer court which was of bronze altar for the slaying of sacrifices.

I wish I had time for more writing now. But I do not.
Yes, I do interpret the souls beneath the altar at the fifth seal to be underneath the earth.

When I come back I will provide more reasons that this is the best interpretation imo.
I would also object if someone suggested that the golden altar in which prayers ascend to God in the Holy Place
was the same altar as the bronze altar in the outer court.

Your other comments I'll have to study latter.
 
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oikonomia

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And, WHAT happened after?
He rose from the dead on the third day.
It is wonderfully victorious.
Jesus was raised from the dead and He is currently in Heaven seated at the right hand of the Father.
Yes. Absolutely.
And He is also Christ in us the hope of glory.
Gotta look at the big picture man and get unstuck from what happened before His resurrection.
Have to see the big picture. So true.
Thankyou.
 
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LoveofTruth

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What I am looking for specifically are your reasons to believe the divine Father in the Triune God was indwelling people
before Christ's work of redemptive death and resurrection.
Matthew 10: 20. For it is not ye that speak, but the Spirit of your Father which speaketh in you.”

And they were sent to the lost sheep of Israel at that time . They were found sheep having eternal life as Jesus said he gives eternal life to his sheep abd they were sent to the list sheep. They were not sent to the Gentiles at that time as they would be after Pentecost.
Here you refer to Galatians 3:16 as evidence for this. I may not comment too much now. It gives great opportunity to
get back into this book. I would like to come back to Galatians latter.
Yes, we see in Galatians three that Abraham had the seed (Christ) in him and believers are of the same seed. His seed remains in us 1 John 3:9 KJV .
You want me to believe that the Old Testament believers were born again.
I only show what scripture shows. I showed how David spoke of a new creation in him and having the spirit. Abd I spoke of Peter and others evidencing that they were born again by thier confession as proven in 1 John 4:15, and 1 John 5:1 KJV. There are other evidences. The believers in the OT were called saints, righteous, it was said the Lird is their righteousness. They were caulked His sheep, etc.

Christ dwells in our heart by faith. I speak of Christ here , the seed, the word of God the true Light, the Son. And we read of all the OT saints being saved by faith. We read of salvation before the cross (though not without it in time) . What I mean by this is that God was able to give the salvation by grace through faith because in time He knows that Christ will die for their sins and ruse again . But they could not be perfect without us or have the fullness of the Holy Ghost baptism until the resurrection of Jesus. However they did have the Holy Ghost with them and working in the OT but he was with tham and shall be in them who are in the New Testament. We even read of sone with special things said about them like this,

Luke 1: 13. But the angel said unto him, Fear not, Zacharias: for thy prayer is heard; and thy wife Elisabeth shall bear thee a son, and thou shalt call his name John. 15. For he shall be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink; and he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother's womb.”
If they were born again before Christ's coming to fulfill His ministry are you saying they were already quickened (made alive) and therefore were already born from above, born of the Spirit?
Yes, they had the Father and the Son in them.

But they did not have the Holy Ghost in them yet, he was with them and shall be in them as Jesus said. They already had the Lird sheets in them comforting them but he would give them ANOTHER comforter.

We read of many believing in Jesus before the cross and those who believe have eternal life. They were looking to God’s righteousness in faith even though much was not clear to them. We see all those in Hebrews 11 being saved by faith yet not perfect without us. They did have the gospel preached in types even we read of the gospel being preached before unto Abraham and they had many other things to point to Gods righteousness and we read of them being quickened (made alive) by the word of Gid in the OT. We also are quickened (made alive ) by the word of God In the New Testament.

Psalm 119: 50. This is my comfort in my affliction: for thy word hath quickened me.”

Ephesians 2: 1. And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;”

Psalm 119: 40. Behold, I have longed after thy precepts: quicken me in thy righteousness.”

Hebrews 4: 12. For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.”

Psalm 119: 154. Plead my cause, and deliver me: quicken me according to thy word. 155. Salvation is far from the wicked: for they seek not thy statutes.”

James 1: 18. Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.”
So are you saying that Nicodemus who came questioning Jesus in John chapter 3 was already quickened, made alive in his spirit, born from above as he conversed with Jesus?
He had not yet been born again yet but Jesus told him that he should have known about these things.

Jest was not speaking of a future event but what had already been happening as he said,

John 3: 10. Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things? 11. Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness.”

Jesus said,

John 3: 3. Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.”

So a person at that time could not see the kingdom or the things of the kingdom unless they were born again. They needed spiritual eyes. But consider that ther apostles did see and when speaking of the things of the kingdom to them he said,

Matthew 13::11 15, 16 “1. He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given…15 For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them. 16. But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear.

That what so can share for now, I have to get back to this kater.

God bless. Be patient in this talk there is soo much that can be said it is overwhelming. And soo many scriptures.
 
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oikonomia

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We will be in a glorified body so we will not be nekkid, and wherever the Lord is... that IS Heaven

That's your personal assumption. There is an alter in Heaven, so you'd be wrong:

Revelation 8:3
Another angel came and stood at the altar, holding a golden censer; and much incense was given to him, so that he might add it to the prayers of all the saints on the golden altar which was before the throne.

Revelation 8:5
Then the angel took the censer and filled it with the fire of the altar, and threw it to the earth; and there followed peals of thunder and sounds and flashes of lightning and an earthquake.

Revelation 9:13
Then the sixth angel sounded, and I heard a voice from the four horns of the golden altar which is before God,
I liked the line of verses from Revelation. I definitely want to be like you glorying in the righteousness of God and His judgment.

I have to correct something I said. The altar which the "another Angel" stood by is indeed the altar of bronze in the outer court (Exodus 27:1-8) It is of acacia wood overlayed with bronze.

The symbolism is that the prayers come from the golden altar in the Holy Place, the smaller altar overlad with gold.

And another Angel came and stood at the altar, having a golden censer, and much incense was given to Him to offer with the prayers of all the saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne. (Rev. 8:3)

The incense is ADDED to the prayers of all the saints. The incense which makes the prayers pleasing and acceptable signifies Christ
within the living of those praying saints.


Those prayers ascended from the altar which is "before the throne" meaning the golden altar which is before the Holy of Holies.
The incense signifies Christ with all His merit to be added to the prayers of the saints.

The smoke of the incense in verse 4 indicates that incense is burned and ascends to God with the prayers of the saints. The implication is that the mixed in merits of Christ as incense makes the prayers of the saints acceptable.

And the smoke of the incense went up with the prayers of the saints out of the hand of the Angel before God. (v.4)

Then we see verse 5,6 -

And the Angel took the censer and filled it with the fire of the altar and cast it to the earth; and there were thunders and voices and lightnings and an earthquake. (v.5)
And the seven angels who had the seven trumpets prepared themselves to trumpet. (v.6)


The implication is that this casting answer to the prayers of the saints and ushers in the seven trumpets. The last three of the seven
trumpets are the great tribulation.
(Rev. 8:13)

The prayers of the saints must include prayers like that in Luke 18:7-8 and prayers underneath the altar of sacrifice seen in the fifth seal of Revelation 6:9-11. They must be prayers of the saints to vindicate justly judgment upon those who oppose God's economy.

The enemies of God have necessarily become the enemies of God's people.

The prayers of the saints I believe ascend to God from two places - on the earth and under the earth.
And the eventual answer to the acceptable petitions of godly people for God to act result in
the changing of the age and the seven trumpets of the end times.

Include this in "the big picture". it is not any old ordinary prayers which effect this reaction. It is prayers that include the fragrance, aroma, and scent of Jesus Christ in the living of the praying ones. Surely that includes the departed souls seen back in the fifth seal underneath the altar.

You believe "underneath the altar" corresponds to being in heaven.
I differ here. This "underneath the altar" signifies underneath the earth.

These in Paradise in the heart of the earth, the comfortable portion of Hades, are resurrected and raptured
to the throne before the 3.5 years of the great tribulation. They are included in the corporate man-child caught
up to the throne of God in Revelation 12 before the GT of a thousand two hundred and sixty days.

And she brought forth a son, a man-child, who is to shepherd all the nations with an iron rod; and her child was caught up to God and to His throne.
And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she has a place there prepared by God so that they might nourish her there a thousand two hundred and sixty days. (Rev. 12:5,6)


The picture is too big to be seen in one little post.
It is too big to be totally seen in anything less than eternity.
 
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RocK Guy

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The altar of sacrifice is the one that John saw the souls of those who had died for their testimony.

That would mean the dead saints are still here on earth as disembodied people who's spirits are hanging around here on earth and that is in error to believe that because when people die they do not stay on earth as ghosts

The alter being spoken of is in Heaven. The holy of holies the children of Israel had here on earth is a facsimile of the real thing which is in Heaven.,

Revelation 14:18, Revelation 16:7, and Revelation 8:5 just say it's an alter so there's no reason to think this is not where the saints that had been martyred are located at. And, there's no reason to believe the Father has a bunch of different alters in His presence anyway as different things can be done at the same alter.


I do interpret the souls beneath the altar at the fifth seal to be underneath the earth.

After the resurrection of Jesus Christ only those that are not saved go in to hell as there is no more Abraham's bosom since Jesus gained victory over death, hell, and the grave.

If Jesus did not with authority, then they would be stuck in the upper regions of hell like it was before Jesus was raised from the dead and was victorious over all forms of death


I would also object if someone suggested that the golden altar in which prayers ascend to God in the Holy Place

If God is there, it's the holiest place in existence.
 
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oikonomia

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That would mean the dead saints are still here on earth as disembodied people who's spirits are hanging around here on earth and that is in error to believe that because when people die they do not stay on earth as ghosts
I am not sure I am in good sequence here. But I offer some response.

I don't consider the martyred saints in paradise as "hanging around." This sounds way too flippant for God preparing a place
for the souls of martyred before resurrection and transfiguration.

I also do not consider the concept of our brothers and sisters giving up their lives for the testimony as "ghosts" hanging around.
In the OT the spirit of Samuel was at rest in Sheol. And angels brought his soul up in spite of the witch of Endor disobeying God by
trying to practice neocramancy which was forbidden.

But at King Saul's request angels (seen as "gods" - elohim) accompanied Samuel UP from underneath the earth where he was
not "hanging around" but at divine rest.

And the king said to her, Do not be afraid. But what do you see? And the woman said to Saul, I see some divine being coming up out of the earth. ( 1 Sam. 28:13)

And he said to her, What is his appearance? And she said, An old man is coming up; and he is wrapped in a cloak. Then Saul knew that it was Samuel, and he bowed with his face to the ground and paid him homage. (v.14)

And Samuel said to Saul, Why have you disturbed me by bringing me up? And Saul said, I am greatly distressed; for the Philistines wage war against me, and God has turned away from me and answers me no more, neither through the prophets nor by dreams. Therefore I have called you, that you may make known to me what I shall do. (v.15)


The godly prophet was a departed soul without the body resting underneath the earth. Not much room for argument here.
The only other issue is your theory that Samuel with other OT saints were taken to heaven when Jesus ascended to heaven.

I would ask you then why was not David ascended to heaven at that time also? For the Scripture you revere and love says
David has not ascended into heaven.

Acts 2:34a- For David did not ascend into the heavens, but he himself says, “The Lord said to my Lord, Sit at My right hand

So Jesus ascended into heaven but David did not by the time of Peter's message in Acts 2.
I would teach that both Samuel and David as well as other saints of the OT along with saints of the NT age
are where Samuel still is - resting in prepraration for final resurrection and glorification.

Now I want to be exactly like you and exalt the resurrection of Christ highly.
But God unfolds His will in stages and gradually.

Underneath the altar in the fifth seal refers to this place underneath the earth.
That is how I would teach. I've been persuaded that this is the better interpretation of the meaning of the fifth seal.

The alter being spoken of is in Heaven. The holy of holies the children of Israel had here on earth is a facsimile of the real thing which is in Heaven.,
In this verse where would the outer court be - in heaven or on the earth?

Revelation 11:1,2 - And there was given to me a reed like a rod, and someone said, Rise and measure the temple of God and the altar and those who worship in it. And the court which is outside the temple cast out and do not measure it, because it has been given to the Gentiles, and they will trample the holy city for forty-two months.

The temple and the altar (golden incense altar) are preserved along with those who worship there.
But the court which is "outside the temple" would correspond to the outer court.

The bronze altar where the animals were slain were slain in the outer court corresponding to "outside the temple."

The spiritual significance is that on earth there is still the trampling opposition of the nations and the persecution of
the martyrs ON EARTH. Those who have been raptured to worship in the temple in heacen are safe for those agonizing
forty-two months.

The meaning here in Revelation 11:1,2 is that earthly Jerusalem with earthly Jerusalem temple will be given over to the
Gentiles to be trampled upon by Antichrist and the Gentiles.

This has to be in brief.
Just before the forty-two months the stronger remnant of saints living on earth and saints having died in the past
will be resurrected and raptured before the three and one half years of the great tribulation. It is at that time
those saints watching vigilantly on earth plus those who died in such a life together will be taken up to the throne
in heaven with their resurrected and glorified bodies.

Saints living who were not raptured remain as the larger part of God's saints to pass through the forty-two months
with some protection from God as they are still on the earth.

In Revelation 11:1,2 those under the measuring are fully possessed by God in heaven worshipping.
Outside the temple in heaven is the earth, the earthly temple in Jerusalem considered now the outer court.

So in the fifth seal "underneath the altar" should mean underneath the earth.

And when He opened the fifth seal, I saw underneath the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God and because of the testimony which they had.

And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Master, holy and true, will You not judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?

And to each of them was given a white robe; and it was said to them that they should rest yet a little while, until also the number of their fellow slaves and their brothers who were about to be killed, even as they were, is completed. (Rev. 6:9-11)

Revelation 14:18, Revelation 16:7, and Revelation 8:5 just say it's an alter so there's no reason to think this is not where the saints that had been martyred are located at. And, there's no reason to believe the Father has a bunch of different alters in His presence anyway as different things can be done at the same alter.
Two altars mentioned in the construction of both the tabernacle and the temple is not just "a bunch of different altars".
Do you disagree that there was more than one altar in the tabernacle and in the temple?

The location of each altar is significant.
The golden altar where the incense ascended before the Holy of Holies has its significance.
The bronze altar where the animals sacrifices were slain in the outer court has its significance.

Revelation 11:1,2 proves that the outer court is being used as a sign of earth, Jerusalem on earth, and its temple are.
And there underneath the altar are seen the souls - ie, underneath the earth, in Abraham's Bosom or Paradise
crying out for God's just vindication upon their murderers doing still the same thing above them on the earth.

After the resurrection of Jesus Christ only those that are not saved go in to hell as there is no more Abraham's bosom since Jesus gained victory over death, hell, and the grave.
This victory that Christ accomplished must be transmitted down from the Head of the church into the Body of the church.
That is why Paul says He has been made the head over all things TO the church.

And He subjected all things under His feet and gave Him to be Head over all things to the church, (Eph. 1:22)

Objectively Christ has done it all, nullified death and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel.
Subjectively He awaits a critical mass of overcomers to be living exerperiencially in this as His body.

This outworking of Him transmitting His authority down from the Head TO the members of His Body is
an ongoing process which must reach a critical tiping point.

Part of the gradual arrival of that subjective aspect of the objective victory of Christ is in the martyrdom of believers
throughout the church age. And the faithfulness of witnesses living Him subjectively.

We should not mistake the gradualness of God outworking His will to a disbelief that He is Lord of all.
In stages, progressively, gradually, ongoingly until a climax He moves to bring in His kingdom and the New Jerusalem.

Do not mistake a belief in souls crying out underneath the earth for disbelief in Christ's objective victorious accomplishment.

If Jesus did not with authority, then they would be stuck in the upper regions of hell like it was before Jesus was raised from the dead and was victorious over all forms of death
I do not think of them as "stuck there" in that way. I think of them as like Samuel the prophet being relatively MORE with God and Christ
yet patiently waiting as a great cloud of witnesses for something to be concluded.

The appeasing them and encouraging them with robes must mean for them something has not yet been totally consummated.
They are to be patient as others are to bear testimony on earth as they did.

And to each of them was given a white robe; and it was said to them that they should rest yet a little while, until also the number of their fellow slaves and their brothers who were about to be killed, even as they were, is completed. (Rev. 6:11)

If God is there, it's the holiest place in existence.
It is a good point.
God is in their spirit the human holiest of holies.
So in that sense surely without the distraction of a fallen body they are MORE in His presence even in Hades.
They are abroad from the body yet with the Lord.
They were in the body abroad (in this relative sense) from the Lord.

while we are at home in the body, we are abroad from the Lord (2 Cor. 5:6b)

Their patience is not in vain for full vindication and glorification is inevitable in the course of time.
 
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RocK Guy

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In this verse where would the outer court be - in heaven or on the earth?

That does not prove those that were killed for the gospel are not in Heaven with the Lord once they were killed.


Do not mistake a belief in souls crying out underneath the earth for disbelief in Christ's objective victorious accomplishment.

No mistake on my end as Christians go to be in the presence with the Lord when they die under the New Covenant.

You are confusing the new with the old covenant as it was under the old covenant that OT saints when to Abraham's bosom (upper region of hell) only because they could not be born again until after Jesus was raised from the dead.

You seem to be forgetting that once one becomes born again they are IN Christ so when they due they are still IN Christ which places them in Heaven with the Father after they die physically.

Glad to be able to help get all this sorted out.
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oikonomia

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That does not prove those that were killed for the gospel are not in Heaven with the Lord once they were killed.
During the time Peter is giving his gospel message David had not ascended into heaven. (Acts 2:34)

In your next post to me could you explain why OT saints were taken to heaven when Jesus ascended but David
was not?

No mistake on my end as Christians go to be in the presence with the Lord when they die under the New Covenant.
I have not said they do not go to the presence of the Lord upon dying.
I affirmed it.

I said along with the New Testament that to depart is to be with the Lord in a relatively encreased way.
What I said was that we could be more in the presence of the Lord and not be in Heaven.

You are confusing the new with the old covenant as it was under the old covenant that OT saints when to Abraham's bosom (upper region of hell) only because they could not be born again until after Jesus was raised from the dead.
I don't think this is the case. The meaning the Apostle Paul gives to Christ leading captive those taken captive in His
ascension is concerning "each one of us" including himself. He was not dead was he? He was not released from the tombs in Matthew 27:52.

Look carefully at Ephesians 4:7-9.

But to each one of us grace was given according to the measure of the gift of Christ. (v.7)

Therefore the Scripture says, “Having ascended to the height, He led captive those taken captive and gave gifts to men.” (v.8)

(Now this, “He ascended,” what is it except that He also descended into the lower parts of the earth? (v.9)


1.) The audience is the living believers including Paul and his living co-workers -"each one of US"

2.) The THEREFORE is his application of the OT passage - "Therefore the Scripture says . . . "

3.)
His use of the passage is not about tombs being opened and OT saints coming out and subsequently asending with Christ to Heaven.

4.) His use of the passage is about living saints being capture by the resurrected and ascended Christ to give them as gifts for
the building up of the Body of Christ expressed as churches on the earth.

Isn't it true that your belief that OT saints ascended to Heaven when Jesus rose and ascended based upon this passage?
But the way you use the passage is not the way the Apostle Paul employs the passage.
Which of you do you think I should follow? I think you should change your interpretation to match Paul's.

When Jesus ascended from the lower parts of the earth to Heaven David, Samuel, and the martyred saints remained there
"with the Lord" comfortable, resting further in Paradise.

He ascended leading living men and women to be His captives and then gifts for the ministry work.

He who descended, He is also the One who ascended far above all the heavens that He might fill all things.) (v.10)
And He Himself gave some as apostles and some as prophets and some as evangelists and some as shepherds and teachers, (v.11)

For the perfecting of the saints unto the work of the ministry, unto the building up of the Body of Christ, (v.12)

You seem to be forgetting that once one becomes born again they are IN Christ so when they due they are still IN Christ which places them in Heaven with the Father after they die physically.

Glad to be able to help get all this sorted out. View attachment 345685
I do like an assured and confident teacher of the word of God.

However, dear brother, the saints who are born again have the Lord WITH them, indwelling them, wherever they may be.

So "The Lord be with your spirit" (2 Timothy 4:22) would mean the Lord is WITH the living saints and WITH the "sleeping" saints who have died.

They are not only WITH the Lord when they die.
Christ said He would be WITH us even until the consummation of the age, living or having died. (Matthew 28:20)

For the sake of exalting His victory and indwelling life I do not want to change that into
IE. I will be with you once you die and go to Heaven.


What He said as His closing word in Matthew is - And behold, I am with you all the days until the consummation of the age.

This passage in 2nd Corinthians about the believers dying does not say they immediately go to Heaven.
But it does say if we should die we will be (more so) with the Lord being abroad from our physical body.

Therefore being always of good courage and knowing that while we are at home in the body, we are abroad from the Lord (2 Cor. 5:6)
(For we walk by faith, not by appearance) (v.7) —
We are of good courage then and are well pleased rather to be abroad from the body and at home with the Lord. (v.8)
 
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LoveofTruth

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During the time Peter is giving his gospel message David had not ascended into heaven. (Acts 2:34)
David was part of the Old Covenant they would go to Abraham’s Bosom , paradise when they died and be conscious after death in spirit. And the section in Acts is typifying Christ in further references.

And we read


Ecclesiastes 3: 21. Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth?”

In the new testament wecread

Hebrews 12: 22. But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, 23. To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,”

I have not said they do not go to the presence of the Lord upon dying.
I affirmed it.

I said along with the New Testament that to depart is to be with the Lord in a relatively encreased way.
What I said was that we could be more in the presence of the Lord and not be in Heaven.


I don't think this is the case. The meaning the Apostle Paul gives to Christ leading captive those taken captive in His
ascension is concerning "each one of us" including himself. He was not dead was he? He was not released from the tombs in Matthew 27:52.

Look carefully at Ephesians 4:7-9.

But to each one of us grace was given according to the measure of the gift of Christ. (v.7)

Therefore the Scripture says, “Having ascended to the height, He led captive those taken captive and gave gifts to men.” (v.8)

(Now this, “He ascended,” what is it except that He also descended into the lower parts of the earth? (v.9)


1.) The audience is the living believers including Paul and his living co-workers -"each one of US"

2.) The THEREFORE is his application of the OT passage - "Therefore the Scripture says . . . "

3.)
His use of the passage is not about tombs being opened and OT saints coming out and subsequently asending with Christ to Heaven.

4.) His use of the passage is about living saints being capture by the resurrected and ascended Christ to give them as gifts for
the building up of the Body of Christ expressed as churches on the earth.

Isn't it true that your belief that OT saints ascended to Heaven when Jesus rose and ascended based upon this passage?
But the way you use the passage is not the way the Apostle Paul employs the passage.
Which of you do you think I should follow? I think you should change your interpretation to match Paul's.

When Jesus ascended from the lower parts of the earth to Heaven David, Samuel, and the martyred saints remained there
"with the Lord" comfortable, resting further in Paradise.

He ascended leading living men and women to be His captives and then gifts for the ministry work.

He who descended, He is also the One who ascended far above all the heavens that He might fill all things.) (v.10)
And He Himself gave some as apostles and some as prophets and some as evangelists and some as shepherds and teachers, (v.11)

For the perfecting of the saints unto the work of the ministry, unto the building up of the Body of Christ, (v.12)


I do like an assured and confident teacher of the word of God.

However, dear brother, the saints who are born again have the Lord WITH them, indwelling them, wherever they may be.

So "The Lord be with your spirit" (2 Timothy 4:22) would mean the Lord is WITH the living saints and WITH the "sleeping" saints who have died.

They are not only WITH the Lord when they die.
Christ said He would be WITH us even until the consummation of the age, living or having died. (Matthew 28:20)

For the sake of exalting His victory and indwelling life I do not want to change that into
IE. I will be with you once you die and go to Heaven.


What He said as His closing word in Matthew is - And behold, I am with you all the days until the consummation of the age.

This passage in 2nd Corinthians about the believers dying does not say they immediately go to Heaven.
But it does say if we should die we will be (more so) with the Lord being abroad from their physical body.

Therefore being always of good courage and knowing that while we are at home in the body, we are abroad from the Lord (2 Cor. 5:6)
(For we walk by faith, not by appearance) (v.7) —
We are of good courage then and are well pleased rather to be abroad from the body and at home with the Lord. (v.8)
There is also no soul sleep taught in scripture. The body sleeps in the grave until the resurrection. But the spirit goes on upward and now to be with the Lord and wherever he is we are.
 
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oikonomia

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David was part of the Old Covenant they would go to Abraham’s Bosom , paradise when they died and be conscious after death in spirit. And the section in Acts is typifying Christ in further references.

And we read


Ecclesiastes 3: 21. Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth?”

I wish you and I could transfer our discussion about the alleged born again OT saints to another thread.

But as for Ecclesiastes 3:21 I read it as a question - "Who knows . . . ?"

That is not to say we will never be told by revelation anything about the departed.
I take Solomon's question to mean by personal experience of all of us under the sun, none can testify what will happen to us after we die.


New American Standard Bible
Who knows that the spirit of the sons of mankind ascends upward and the spirit of the animal descends downward to the earth?

Amplified Bible
Who knows if the spirit of man ascends upward and the spirit of the animal descends downward to the earth?

Contemporary English Version
Who really knows if our spirits go up and the spirits of animals go down into the earth?
 
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oikonomia

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There is also no soul sleep taught in scripture. The body sleeps in the grave until the resurrection. But the spirit goes on upward and now to be with the Lord and wherever he is we are.
Are you addressing me, oikonomia?

I didn't use the term "soul sleep" anywhere in this thread.
I did use the NT term sleeping as applied to the deceased Christians. (1 Thes. 4:13,14)

But we do not want you to be ignorant, brothers, concerning those who are sleeping, that you would not grieve even as also the rest who have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose, so also those who have fallen asleep through Jesus, God will bring with Him.
 
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oikonomia

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In the new testament wecread

Hebrews 12: 22. But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, 23. To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,”
This great passage though could not be used as evidence that now both OT and NT saints are living in heaven.

1.) You have come is spoken to living believers not dead ones. It is spoken to us today as well who are not dead.

2.)
innumerable company of angels most likely include all of God's angels. Since angels accompanied Samuel up from his rest in
Hades's pleasant section (
Abraham's bosom) , they would be included.

Paul was
caught away into Paradise and heard unspeakable things too great for mortal men to utter.
This should mean perhaps angels proclaim fantastic things there. I have no reason to believe this
place is dull or drab.


And I know such a man (whether in the body or outside the body, I do not know; God knows),
That he was caught away into Paradise and heard unspeakable words, which it is not allowed for a man to speak. (2 Cor. 12:3,4)


3.) Of course all saints eventually have their destiniy in New Jerusalem or "the heavenly Jerusalem."
in lieu that we Christians have come to the new covenant we also have come to this city.

We can say we have come to the heavenly Jerusalem now just as sure as we can say we have come the
"the church of the firstborn ones" today while alive.

4.) Written in heaven can mean our names are recorded there. It doesn't have to mean we are there. (Luke 10:20)

However do not rejoice in this, that the spirits are subject to you, but rejoice that your names are recorded in the heavens.

 
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LoveofTruth

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Are you addressing me, oikonomia?

I didn't use the term "soul sleep" anywhere in this thread.
I did use the NT term sleeping as applied to the deceased Christians. (1 Thes. 4:13,14)

But we do not want you to be ignorant, brothers, concerning those who are sleeping, that you would not grieve even as also the rest who have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose, so also those who have fallen asleep through Jesus, God will bring with Him.
do you believe the Christians who die are conscious after death? and do you believe that the sleep implies soul sleep or they are not aware of anything after death?

I am asking this to examine your view of these things. I have talked to many seven day Adventist and even those in other groups that i do not agree with totally far away from my doctrine according to scripture. I am curious, what group do you belong to?, does your gathering have a religious name to it? if so what one. Some hide their affiliations with other groups in here. I have met some that are JWs or Mormons, or Seven Day Adventist etc, who teach the wrong doctrine of soul sleep. Just curious what you believe.

And what sleeps is the body in the grave, not the spirit or soul of a man. I believe that when a believer does they are conscious after death. Do you believe this?
 
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oikonomia

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do you believe the Christians who die are conscious after death? and do you believe that the sleep implies soul sleep or they are not aware of anything after deatth?
I believe that the departed souls are conscious and the Christians can even petition God.
The souls underneath the altar appear conscious enough.
Paul being caught away to Paradise heard unspeakable words. Someone had to conscious to hear.

These things we only have a glimpse of. And it is futile and even unhealthy to delve into speculation too much.
He has unveiled to us only so much that He deems necessary for us to know.

The things that are hidden belong to Jehovah our God; but the things that are revealed, to us and our children forever, that we may do all the words of this law. (Deut, 29:29)

I am asking this to examine your view of these things. I have talked to many seven day Adventist and even those in other groups that i do not agree with totally far away from my doctrine according to scripture. I am curious, what group do you belong to?,
I meet on the local ground as churches indentified only by locality. We are not denominational or non-denominational or enter
denominational. We refer to the churches as local churches. We hold Jesus Christ is the center and circumference of the body of Christ including you, me, all genuine believers throughout the church age and throughout the earth.

Some statement of faith and hope of the local churches and their purpose can be reviewed here:
Beliefs & Practices | The Local Churches
does your gathering have a religious name to it? if so what one. Some hide their affiliations with other groups in here. I have met some that are JWs or Mormons, or Seven Day Adventist etc, who teach the wrong doctrine of soul sleep. Just curious what you believe.

Our practice of receiving one another in spite of minor opinons is along the lines of Romans 14.
You can break bread with us if you think about death a particular way different from me. As long as we all
hold Jesus Christ as Lord.

That with one accord you may with one mouth glorify the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.
Therefore receive one another, as Christ also received you to the glory of God. (Rom. 15:6,7)


And what sleeps is the body in the grave, not the spirit or soul of a man. I believe that when a believer does they are conscious after death. Do you believe this?
Generally I believe that the body turns to dust. The immaterial part of man goes to Hades for now.
The saints of God are in Paradise, a pleasant part of Hades. This is temporary until resurrection, transfiguration, and rapture.

What I find that I'd like to examine more closely with you is not that matter.
But your tendency to make the incarnation and work of Christ rather an anti-climax.
I mean your way of saying Nicodemus had the indwelling Spirit while he was there perplexed over
Jesus teaching him about the new birth.

I've been re-reading some of your thoughts but just have not replied yet.
I'd like to but maybe on another dedicated thread.
I am in an special training this week and kind of pre-occupied.

Sometime we should talk about your Old Testament saints were born again concept a little more.
I hope you are praying for me as I am for you.
 
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LoveofTruth

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This great passage though could not be used as evidence that now both OT and NT saints are living in heaven.

1.) You have come is spoken to living believers not dead ones. It is spoken to us today as well who are not dead.

2.)
innumerable company of angels most likely include all of God's angels. Since angels accompanied Samuel up from his rest in
Hades's pleasant section (
Abraham's bosom) , they would be included.

Paul was
caught away into Paradise and heard unspeakable things too great for mortal men to utter.
This should mean perhaps angels proclaim fantastic things there. I have no reason to believe this
place is dull or drab.


And I know such a man (whether in the body or outside the body, I do not know; God knows),
That he was caught away into Paradise and heard unspeakable words, which it is not allowed for a man to speak. (2 Cor. 12:3,4)


3.) Of course all saints eventually have their destiniy in New Jerusalem or "the heavenly Jerusalem."
in lieu that we Christians have come to the new covenant we also have come to this city.

We can say we have come to the heavenly Jerusalem now just as sure as we can say we have come the
"the church of the firstborn ones" today while alive.

4.) Written in heaven can mean our names are recorded there. It doesn't have to mean we are there. (Luke 10:20)

However do not rejoice in this, that the spirits are subject to you, but rejoice that your names are recorded in the heavens.

He says they are now come to …now present seated with Christ in heavenly places

And we read

2 Corinthians 5: 1. For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. 10. For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.”

And we are now in spirit seated with Christ and we shall all appear before God in heaven.

Ephesians 2: 6. And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:”
 
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oikonomia

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He says they are now come to …now present seated with Christ in heavenly places

And we read

2 Corinthians 5: 1. For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. 10. For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.”

And we are now in spirit seated with Christ and we shall all appear before God in heaven.

Ephesians 2: 6. And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:”
Amen to this. Certainly when we exercise my praying and praising spirit I am seated with Christ above it all.

Our position is with Him when we come forward to the holy of holies in our regenerated spirit.
When we come forward on earth to the throne of grace in His presence with our inner man.

Here we need to learn to abide and live always.
 
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oikonomia

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Remember...

Having Children outside of marriage is a sin. The Marriage must take place *before* the Redeemed can become Born Again.
I wonder if your analogy will be good if taken too far.
Regeneration must take place before the marriage of the Bridegroom Christ with His church the Bride.

To match the Lord we first have to receive His life - regeneration.
Then we must have that life spring up within us as from an internal fountain to fill all our being.
Then we must be swallowed up by life.

Being born of divine life, filled with divine life, saturated with life, consummed with divine life, raised and transfigured with divine life
then we are ready to match the Bridegroom in every way as His Bride.

Jehovah God did refer to the unregenerated Israelites as His spouse a number of times,
(Isa. 54:6; Jer. 3:1; Ezek. 16:8; Hosea 2:19).

The New Testament says regenerated are collectively the spouse and/or are presented as pure virgin to Christ.
(2 Cor. 11:2; Eph. 5:31-32). The type came first and the anti-type, or the reality of the type came afterward.

John the Baptist referred to the encrease of followers of Jesus being the encrease of the Bridgegroom with His bride.


He who has the bride is the bridegroom; but the friend of the bridegroom, who stands and hears him, rejoices with joy because of the bridegroom’s voice. This joy of mine therefore is made full.

He must increase, but I must decrease. (John 3:29,30)

What do you think about regeneration and redemption being virtually simultaneous ?
the spirit is life because of righteousness. (Rom.8:10b)

Ie. the human spirit being made alive in regeneration because the righteous requirement for redemption is fulfilled.
The small s human spirit and the capital S Holy Spirit become mingled as one when we are joined to the Lord through redemption.

He who is joined to the Lord is one spirit. ( 1 Cor. 6:17)

My point is that being born again precedes the marriage in God's revelation.
It is not the other way around.

Having said that, I do acknowledge the before regeneration in the OT and probably as John the Baptist
was ministering God looked upon Israel as His spouse and the growing of Jesus disciples as the formation of Christ's bride.

How do you mean the Father begetting children before the marriage is akin to fornication?
They have to be children with the life of God before they can become the matching wife of the Lamb. Right?
 
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