Where is "go to heaven" in the Bible?

[Qubit]

A strong delusion is mentioned in the New Testament: 2 Thessalonians 2:11 And for this reason God shall send them a strong delusion, that they should believe a lie.

This delusion has people looking forward to the 2nd Coming (in the so called rapture to heaven, Pre, Mid, or Post) believing in a rapture removal from the earth.

Incorrect. The delusion happens after death. Most do not understand this. The Strong Delusion is the torment that happens to those in Hell. It is one's biggest fear being placed upon them.

The Rich Man was an example of one who suffered the Strong Delusion. His biggest fear became reality.

God will choose the delusions on a case-by-case basis...

Isaiah 66:4
"I also will choose their delusions, and will bring their fears upon them; because when I called, none did answer; when I spake, they did not hear: but they did evil before mine eyes, and chose that in which I delighted not."

They will be different for each person. Again, it happens in Hell, not while someone is alive.

Look at the context...

2 Thessalonians 2:10-12
"And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness."

Do you see the language?

• They are perished.
• They are damned.

The wicked are destroyed. Then the Strong Delusion comes.

 

[oikonomia]

Interesting thread @oikonomia . I will have to read through it before posting too much.

I have been studying Pillars lately and found that a lot of your information matches with mine. If we continue with your theme of being Pillars in New Jerusalem, we discover something that may shock some Christians...

1 Samuel 2:8
"He raiseth up the poor out of the dust, and lifteth up the beggar from the dunghill, to set them among princes, and to make them inherit the throne of glory: for the pillars of the earth are the LORD’S, and he hath set the world upon them."

Before we become Pillars in New Jerusalem, we were Pillars in the Underworld first. Earth was set on top of us. Most will not understand as they are too indoctrinated into false dogma.

I found your insights interesting. I especially never took notice that the word "her" is applied to the tree of life.
I will however, attempt to show that this tree of life is Jesus dispensed into man.
And so the Bride of Christ which certainly is a "her". A vine tree circulating around and around the spiral street and
spiral river appropriately would be Christ imparted and dispensed into man. He is the true vine and we are the branches in John 15.

My favorite translation, the Recovery Version has "its fruit" rather than "her fruit" though.

And on this side and on that side of the river was the tree of life, producing twelve fruits, yielding its fruit each month; and the leaves of the tree are for the healing of the nations. (v.22 RcV)

I would like to see if "her fruit" is a rendering in any other good English translations.
King James has "her fruit".
Webster's Translation also has "yielded her fruit."

I can see no other English renderings using "her".
Not being a textural critic though I would not venture to say no manuscript ever read "her" in Revelation 22:2.

I see in the original Greek handy to me -
ἐν μέσῳ τῆς πλατείας αὐτῆς καὶ τοῦ ποταμοῦ ἐντεῦθεν καὶ ἐκεῖθεν ξύλον ζωῆς ποιοῦν καρποὺς δώδεκα, κατὰ μῆνα ἕκαστον ἀποδιδοῦν τὸν καρπὸν αὐτοῦ, καὶ τὰ φύλλα τοῦ ξύλου εἰς θεραπείαν τῶν ἐθνῶν.

The supplied English being - in the middle of its street. On this side of the river and on that was the tree of life, bearing twelve kinds of fruits, yielding its fruit every month. The leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.

Revelation 22:2 - Original Greek Text

Ancient Greek (biblical / classical) material including: Online texts (accented Greek New Testament), Shopping for printed materials, and Resources for learning and studying Ancient Greek.

www.greekbible.com

I want to reserve comment on "HER fruit" until further study.

However, God's purpose is to dispense the "Him" of the Firstborn Son of God into an corporate entity to be His counterpart.


Truly, truly, I say to you, Unless the grain of wheat falls into the ground and dies, it abides alone; but if it dies, it bears much fruit. (John 12;24)

The one grain of wheat is Jesus. The life concealed within the one grain must be released to bring about the mass production
of duplicates. In death fell into the ground and died. And the shell of His humanity was broken that the divine life could be
released into many grains. It is not the will of God that the one grain "abide alone."

So who then is the He and who then is the she or the "her"?
The Husband - He of this relationship no doubt is the Son of God who died and rose.
The Wife that is taken from Him and brought back to marry Him is the "her" - the church.

Husbands, love your wives even as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself up for her
That He might sanctify her, cleansing her by the washing of the water in the word,
That He might present the church to Himself glorious, not having spot or wrinkle or any such things, but that she would be holy and without blemish. (Eph. 5:27)

Notice that the Bridegroom - Jesus Christ is the Spirit who indwells the Bride such that the two speak together.

And the Spirit and the bride say, Come! And let him who hears say, Come! And let him who is thirsty come; let him who wills take the water of life freely. (Rev. 22:17)

We would normally think if the Bridegroom and the Bride as the pair.
Christ being the Bridegroom and the church being His Bride.

This is still true but Rev. 22:17 emphasis that the Bridegroom Jesus is the indwelling Spirit dispensed into the church.
Therefore the climax of this is dispensing is that they speak together.

From this angle the New Jerusalem is the she and the her of the Bride yet blended, united, and a mingled with the Bridegroom
the life within her.

I would apply this kind of thought to the tree of life in Revelation 22 with its fruit and its leaves, to
be not just the individual Jesus but the Jesus imparted, expanded, dispensed into a corporate entity.

We can see that if the tree of life grows along either side of the river of life it must be a spreading vine.
In other words the tree of life in Revelation 22 is a vine tree growing all along the sides of the river of life.

And he showed me a river of water of life, bright as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb in the middle of its street.
And on this side and on that side of the river was the tree of life, . . .

This sign of a vine tree called the tree of life all along either side of the river of life surely corresponds to
the Lord saying in John 15 that He is the true vine and we are the branches.

I am the true vine, and My Father is the husbandman. (John 15:1)
Abide in Me and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself unless it abides in the vine, so neither can you unless you abide in Me.
I am the vine; you are the branches. He who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit; for apart from Me you can do nothing. (vs. 4,5)

You see the vine and the abiding branches are one organism.
In this way in the concluding sign of God's eternal purpose we see a vine tree - the tree of life as
the Triune God dispensed into man to form one growing spreading organism.

The fruit must be the life of God Himself.
The leaves of the tree for the healing of the nations must be the behavior, deeds, acts of the sons of God
which are to be a healing of the nations.

I believe the sons of God are the eaters of the fruit.
And the behavoir of the sons of God as leaves are for the healing of the nations.

All these characteristics should be present in the normal church life even in this church age.

 

[RocK Guy]

Your verse is describing Abraham's Bosom.

No, that was a temporary holding place for old testament saints until the new birth became available because one must be born again to go in to the presence of God.

To be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord is speaking of being where the Lord is which is in Heaven. There is no further need for the temporary holding place (Abraham's Bosom) in the upper regions of hell as spoken of in the account of the rich man and Lazurus since God's people are born again.

Ephesians 4:8
When He ascended on high, He led captives away, and gave gifts to men

Jesus caused the all those OT saints to be raised from the dead then He took them to Heaven.

Matthew 27:50-53 records, And Jesus cried out again with a loud voice, and yielded up His spirit. And behold, the veil of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom; and the earth shook and the rocks were split. The tombs were opened, and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised; and coming out of the tombs after His resurrection they entered the holy city and appeared to many

 

[RocK Guy]

The Third Heaven is the Kingdom of God Within

Actually, the third Heaven is where the Lord is now, it's actually where God resides:

2 Corinthians 12:2
I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth such an one caught up to the third heaven.

 

[Qubit]

I found your insights interesting. I especially never took notice that the word "her" is applied to the tree of life.
I will however, attempt to show that this tree of life is Jesus dispensed into man.
And so the Bride of Christ which certainly is a "her". A vine tree circulating around and around the spiral street and
spiral river appropriately would be Christ imparted and dispensed into man. He is the true vine and we are the branches in John 15.

DNA forms a type of spiral or helix. If we use the Kingdom of God Within method of interpretation, (i.e., biology, human physiology, anatomy, etc.) the text will reveal even more. Much of the symbolism of Jesus in the Bible points to 'Seed', or to be blunt, Male Sperm. For example:

Galatians 3:16
"Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ."

What is Seed? A Child? Perhaps. However, there is another interpretation...

Luke 8:11
"Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God."

The Word of God as Seed is synonymous to our modern concept of 'DNA'. The Word of God becomes DNA, then proteins, then flesh, etc...

John 1:14
"And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth."

Thus, Jesus as a 'Vine' is basically teaching that Jesus is the DNA template that the Redeemed will be grafted into. Grafting is a picture of Gene Splicing...

Romans 11:23
"And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again."

New Jerusalem is symbolic of the womb that our DNA will be graffed into. The Pillar you referenced earlier is also a symbolic of a Genome.

If we wish to be even more specific, the 'Branches' represent individual Nitrogen Bases as we see in the Candlestick which represents Mitochondrial DNA...

Thus, each person represents an individual letter in the Genome of God. The letters form the members of the Body just like DNA does...

1 Corinthians 12:19-20
"And if they were all one member, where were the body? But now are they many members, yet but one body."

The 'Lamb' represents a Nitrogen Base (i.e., Seed/Word of God). The Seven Eyes represent the seven Electrons of Nitrogen. One day a new 'engraving' or Gene Sequence will be written on the Nucleobase...

Zechariah 3:9
"For behold the stone that I have laid before Joshua; upon one stone shall be seven eyes: behold, I will engrave the graving thereof, saith the LORD of hosts, and I will remove the iniquity of that land in one day."

In other words, Sin will be removed from the Soul i.e., Genome.

I want to reserve comment on "HER fruit" until further study.

Sure, I get that. However, if we were to keep comparing New Jerusalem to a womb, we would discover that at some point they match up far too well to be a coincidence.

For example, Hagar represents Earthly Jerusalem...

Galatians 4:25 (New International Version)
"Now Hagar stands for Mount Sinai in Arabia and corresponds to the present city of Jerusalem, because she is in slavery with her children."

In other words, God is linking the womb of an Earthly Mother to Earthly Jerusalem. The 'Temple' in Jerusalem is the Zygote inside of her...

​

The Tabernacles and Temples are scale models of Eukaryotic Cells. We are clothed with the Tabernacle. Does this make sense? Think of Mystery Babylon giving birth to harlots and abominations. It is a Biology issue.

The womb of Sarah gives birth to Children of Promise...

Galatians 4:31
"So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free."

See? We must be Born Again through Sarah as well as Abraham.

Look at the so called 'Pearly Gates'...

Revelation 21:21
"And the twelve gates were twelve pearls; every several gate was of one pearl: and the street of the city was pure gold, as it were transparent glass."

What is the Gate? It is the Gate of the Womb. Look...

Job 3:10 (Brenton Septuagint Translation)
"Because it shut not up the gates of my mother's womb, for so it would have removed sorrow from my eyes."

Job 38:8 (Brenton Septuagint Translation)
"And I shut up the sea with gates, when it rushed out, coming forth out its mother's womb."

Think Sea of People. The Gates are euphemism for the Vulva. Sorry to be so blunt.

We would normally think if the Bridegroom and the Bride as the pair.
Christ being the Bridegroom and the church being His Bride.

This is still true but Rev. 22:17 emphasis that the Bridegroom Jesus is the indwelling Spirit dispensed into the church.

The Marriage in Heaven is different than here on Earth. They do not work the same way. The Marriage in Heaven is the Seed fertilizing the Fruit. In other words, it is Conception between Sperm and Ovum, not marriage between two adult humans.

The Redeemed represent the Spirit that enters the Zygote upon Conception. During the Rapture, the Redeemed 'float' because they are not clothed with their final Tabernacle yet. It is like caterpillar vs. butterfly. The process is not complete at that stage.

Therefore the climax of this...

Yes, the Bride and Groom must consummate the marriage...

"In many traditions and statutes of civil or religious law, the consummation of a marriage, often called simply consummation, is the first (or first officially credited) act of sexual intercourse between two people, following their marriage to each other."

Consummation - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Again, Conception in Heaven is different. It is a 'Gene Splicing' event rather than a sex act.

We can see that if the tree of life grows along either side of the river of life it must be a spreading vine.

Ovary are on each side of the Birth Canal...

The leaves of the tree for the healing of the nations must be the behavior, deeds, acts of the sons of God
which are to be a healing of the nations.

The Leaves represent the new 'Covering', opposite of the Covering Adam and Eve tried to clothe themselves with...

Genesis 3:7
"And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons."

God eventually clothed the couple with the skin and flesh we have now...

Job 10:11
"Thou hast clothed me with skin and flesh, and hast fenced me with bones and sinews."

New Jerusalem is where the Redeemed get their final clothing.

 

[Qubit]

No, that was a temporary holding place for old testament saints until the new birth became available because one must be born again to go in to the presence of God.

To be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord is speaking of being where the Lord is which is in Heaven. There is no further need for the temporary holding place (Abraham's Bosom) in the upper regions of hell as spoken of in the account of the rich man and Lazurus since God's people are born again.

Ephesians 4:8
When He ascended on high, He led captives away, and gave gifts to men

Jesus caused the all those OT saints to be raised from the dead then He took them to Heaven.

Matthew 27:50-53 records, And Jesus cried out again with a loud voice, and yielded up His spirit. And behold, the veil of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom; and the earth shook and the rocks were split. The tombs were opened, and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised; and coming out of the tombs after His resurrection they entered the holy city and appeared to many

I disagree with your interpretations. Abraham was not some evil tyrant 'holding prisoners'. That is an absurd notion. Abraham's Bosom was never 'emptied out'.

The 'Captives' represent the entire human race who are in bondage. We are all prisoners here and we need to be saved.

The Lamb will lead the Redeemed out of Abraham's Bosom to New Jerusalem...

Revelation 7:17
"For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes."

If the Throne Room is the final Heaven, then why does the Lamb need to lead the Redeemed out of it?

 

[Qubit]

Actually, the third Heaven is where the Lord is now, it's actually where God resides:

2 Corinthians 12:2
I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth such an one caught up to the third heaven.

Bingo! That is where both John (and I am assuming Paul also) went to. The Lamb is there waiting to lead them to New Jerusalem.

Look at the pun in the verse you posted...

"whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell"

• In the Body = Microcosm (Kingdom of God Within)
• Out of the Body = Macrocosm (Outer Space *AND* Earth's Atmosphere)

These are the actual Three Heavens:

• Heaven #1: Spirit Realm
• Heaven #2: Macrocosm
• Heaven #3: Microcosm

The Church split Heaven #2 into two parts and hid the Third Heaven from everyone. This is why Christians have such trouble putting things together.

Look...

Matthew 13:24
"Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field"

Do you see it? The Kingdom of God Within is the Word of God Seed! DNA. It is Life. It is the Genome quickened in the Body...

Romans 14:17
"For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost."

The Kingdom is Within.

 

[RocK Guy]

I disagree with your interpretations.

No problem, when I die I'm going to where the Lord is at.

Abraham's Bosom was never 'emptied out'.

You have not been there so you can't say one way or the other.

God's Word says Jesus led captivity captive so that's what happened.

The OT saints could not come home to Heaven until the new birth became available and once it did the Father wanted them in His presence and so that's what happened.

The Kingdom is Within

God's throne is in an actual place called Heaven.

The Kingdom of God is righteousness, peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost which is what is in the believer because of the Holy Spirit.

Literal Heaven is not in your heart where God's throne is where Jesus is seated at the right hand of God.

 

[RocK Guy]

Is this that silliness that we have to call Jesus by His Hebrew Name otherwise we are not saved?

aka, the so called Hebrew roots movement?

 

[oikonomia]

Ephesians 4:8
When He ascended on high, He led captives away, and gave gifts to men

Jesus caused the all those OT saints to be raised from the dead then He took them to Heaven.

Matthew 27:50-53 records, And Jesus cried out again with a loud voice, and yielded up His spirit. And behold, the veil of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom; and the earth shook and the rocks were split. The tombs were opened, and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised; and coming out of the tombs after His resurrection they entered the holy city and appeared to many

In Ephesians 4:8 the quotation Paul uses from Psalm 68:18 he applies to "each one of us".

But to each one of us grace was given according to the measure of the gift of Christ.
Therefore the Scripture says, “Having ascended to the height, He led captive those taken captive and gave gifts to men.”

You are interpreting "each one of us" to mean each one of them who were seen in Jerusalem after His resurrection in Matthew 27:50-53.

This doesn't make good sense because Paul and the "each one of us" were not dead in the tombs at that time.

The saints whose bodies came out of the tomb did not become the gifts given to the church as
as apostles and some as prophets and some as evangelists and some as shepherds and teachers,
For the perfecting of the saints unto the work of the ministry, unto the building up of the Body of Christ, (Eph. 4:11b,12)

The meaning Paul ascribes to the quotation is not the meaning you ascribe. Your interpretation is that the resurrected saints
ascended with Jesus to heaven and were given to the church to build her up as prophets, evangelists, and shepherds and teachers.

Concerning whatever happened to saints from the OT who were seen raised and appearing in the city, the word of God
is completely silent. We are not told anything about them after this event.

We are told that the living saints, like Paul and his co-workers, were in Christ's triumphal procession as the ascended Lord.

But thanks be to God, who always leads us in triumph in the Christ and manifests the savor of the knowledge of Him through us in every place. (2 Cor. 2:14)

You should put this verse 2 Cor. 2:14 together with Ephesians 4:8 as refering to Christ leading captive people as now His serving ones
to bring about the knowledge of Christ to the world and also are for the buiding up of the church.

If we are living believers, you and I should be being led captive by the ascended Christ to be gifts to men
functioning to evangelize and also build up the Body of Christ.

 

[RocK Guy]

If we are living believers, you and I should be being led captive by the ascended Christ to be gifts to men
functioning to evangelize and also build up the Body of Christ.

Yes and when I die someday I'll go to be in Heaven where the Lord is, not to the upper regions of hell where OT saints went before the new birth became available.

 

[oikonomia]

I would like to submit two scripture songs from the two above discussed passages.
(2 Cor. 2:14; Eph. 4:8)

Christ leads us in His triumphal procession.

Christ gave us as gifts to the church for ministry of building her.

 

[RocK Guy]

And God's purpose for salvation is for man to be with Him.

 

[oikonomia]

And God's purpose for salvation is for man to be with Him.

This being with the Triune God amounts to the Triune God indwelling us in a joined union of life.
It begins with the regeneration of being born of God when our human spirit and the divine Spirit Who is
the Triune God become one mingled spirit.

He who is joined to the Lord is one spirit (1 Cor. 6:17)

This is the beginning of God spreading His life throughout our whole being.
Paul's pioneer in this experience taught that for him to live was Christ living in him.

For to me, to live is Christ and to die is gain. (Phil. 1:21)

I am crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but it is Christ who lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live in faith, the faith of the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself up for me. (Gal. 2:20)

Whether in heaven or on earth the goal is Christ being our life living out from within us in a mingled and joined union of life.

This is the goal that God's grace is set to accomplish. So immediately following this testimony Paul says he did not
nullify or hinder the grace of God. He allowed this grace to have its full course in him uniting him in life with Christ.

. . . and the life which I now live in the flesh I live in faith, the faith of the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself up for me.
I do not nullify the grace of God; for if righteousness is through law, then Christ has died for nothing. (vs 20b,21)

Where we are actually going is into this mingling of God and man for a corporate expression of God living out through His redeemed people.

 

[RocK Guy]

Where we are actually going is into this mingling of God and man for a corporate expression of God living out through His redeemed people.

Yeah and anyhow when I die I'll be going to where the Lord is now which is in Heaven with the Father.

 

[oikonomia]

Yeah and anyhow when I die I'll be going to where the Lord is now which is in Heaven with the Father.

Does your kind of emphasis imply God is the God of DEATH?
I mean in order to be with God you have to DIE.

Yes, to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord - in a relatively more so basis.
Too many however think the realm in which men can be with God is in DEATH.

I would like to hear you say some more about resurrection and transfiguration to be with God.

For our commonwealth exists in the heavens, from which also we eagerly await a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ,
Who will transfigure the body of our humiliation to be conformed to the body of His glory, according to His operation by which He is able even to subject all things to Himself. (Phil. 3:20,21 Recovery Version)

I would like to hear you say something about death being swallowed up in victory as all our mortal is consummed with the divine life of God.

For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
And when this corruptible will put on incorruption and this mortal will put on immortality, then the word which is written will come to pass, “Death has been swallowed up unto victory.”

Where, O death, is your victory? Where, O death, is your sting? (1 Cor. 15:53-55)

How do you feel about your entire being - spirit and soul and body being preserved complete in sanctification?

We have heard about "dying to go to heaven."
Can you tell us your thoughts on the entire being sanctified and presented blameless to God at His coming?

And the God of peace Himself sanctify you wholly, and may your spirit and soul and body be preserved complete, without blame, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. (1 Thess. 5:23)

 

[RocK Guy]

Does your kind of emphasis imply God is the God of DEATH?
I mean in order to be with God you have to DIE.

Of course I fellowship with the Lord thru His Word and His Spirit now.

Did you not know and understand that you will die someday?

Hebrews 9:27
And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

Can you tell us your thoughts on the entire being sanctified and presented blameless to God at His coming?

You got it all figured out right?

Earlier in the thread they were saying in error when Christians die they don't go to Heaven but to the upper regions of hell

That's why I was replying about when I die I'll be going to be with the Lord where the Father is at in Heaven.

You gotta pay attention in order to keep up with the conversation.

 

[oikonomia]

Of course I fellowship with the Lord thru His Word and His Spirit now.

Did you not know and understand that you will die someday?

Yes.
If I do not live to meet Him alive, I will definitely die like Christians of the past.

Hebrews 9:27
And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

Yes. Amen to this.

You got it all figured out right?

No. There are some unknowns.
But what is revealed will require forever for us to enjoy.

Earlier in the thread they were saying in error when Christians die they don't go to Heaven but to the upper regions of hell

That is most likely correct. Upon death we temporarily go to Paradise in the heart of the earth, the comfortable side of
the region of departed souls.

There have been many, many posts in this discussion. I have not gone back and read all of the statements from the beginning
in a long time. I started this thread.

That's why I was replying about when I die I'll be going to be with the Lord where the Father is at in Heaven.

I see.
While it may not be a major point to you, I don't think Christians die and immediately go to the third heavens.
I think this is a kind of, not careful assumption fueled by a traditional superfiscial understandings of the New Testament.

This should not cause alarm though because the Lord has places in which to preserve the souls of His saints
before their complete readiness spirit and soul and body to be preserved complete according to 1 Thess. 5:23.

No matter how many times it is pointed out that to appear "naked" or unclothed without the transfigured body in heaven
is not wantedby God. And it is not wanted by the apostle. Though, he would be in a comfortable and blessed place
with the Lord before this completion.

Look at Second Corinthians 5:1-4 again as I pose some questions after each verse.
I would like to see you briefly answer specifically each question.

For we know that if our earthly tabernacle dwelling is taken down, we have a building from God, a dwelling not made with hands, eternal, in the heavens. (v.1)

Does God intend for us to die and be in heaven within this "building from God" furnished to us to replace the taken down "tagbernacle" of our present body?

For also in this we groan, longing to be clothed upon with our dwelling place from heaven, (v.2)

Does the apostle groan to be unclothed in heaven? Or does he groan and long to be clothed with something?

If indeed, being clothed, we will not be found naked. (v.3)

Does the apostle expect and look forward to die, go to Heaven, and be naked before God in Heaven?
If he does only wish to die and be found before God naked is it in harmony with what God the Father wants for him?

or also, we who are in this tabernacle groan, being burdened, in that we do not desire to be unclothed, but clothed upon, that what is mortal may be swallowed up by life.

God hates death. For Paul to appear in heaven not clothed upon with all his being swallowed up by divine life, is that something God
wants?

 

[LoveofTruth]

Why do you believe the Divine Father is in the men before the accomplishment of eternal redemption at the cross?

Hello again and God bless,

I can see where sone of these deep things can be misunderstood.

First, the only way that God could give the free gift to all men, the true Light that lighteth every man(John 1:9 KJV), the seed down, the word, Christ working inward. Is through Jesus Christ actual work in the flesh in time and his death and resurrection. But knowing this would be in time God was able to give to all the free gift that came upon all men. The true Light that lighteth every man. So this inward working of God was in all(though not in union with them until repentance and faith ) but God still was working even in the Gentiles who have the work of the law written in their hearts. These are the secrets of men the hidden things. The mystery that hath been hid from ages which is Christ in you the hope of glory.

Jesus said(before the cross that he was in them (John 15) And we read of the Father speaking in them before the cross (Matthew 10). But they did not have the Holy Ghost given until Jesus was risen. He was with them as he was in OT times. But not in them. But this does not mean that Christ was not in them or the Father.

Consider,

John 15: 4. Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me. 5. I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.”

This shows that Christ was in them before the cross , the Son. He is the word down in them the seed.

Even Abraham had christ in him. But not the promised Holy Ghost baptism.

Galatians 3: 16. Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ…29. And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.”

OT saints were born again by the word of God before the cross though not without the cross in time. The word quickened them or made them alive. They had a new creation in them a clean heart and the spirit of Christ in them.

Psalm 51: 10. Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me. 11. Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me. 12. Restore unto me the joy of thy salvation; and uphold me with thy free spirit.”

Peter said Jesus was the Christ the Son of God before the cross and was blessed. This showed that he and others who said so were already born again. As we read those who say such things are born again and have God in them.

Matthew 16: 16. And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.”

Spoken before the cross (though not without it in time.

1 John 5: 1. Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.”

1 John 4: 15. Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God.”

This is a long topic and soo much to say here. I will just touch on it for now.

Is it because the term Father was used in the Hebrew Bible?


That means no one could be a believer in Jesus without the merciful drawing power of the Father.
But men could be drawn to Jesus, attracted to Jesus prior to receiving Him within them.

When He comes the Father in Him comes along to to indwell the believers who have been drawn to Jesus.
Especially in John's Gospel at resurrection we see Him breath Himself into His followers as the Holy Spirit.

He was referring to the Holy Ghost when he breathed in them. He was already with them in them (John 25, etc) he gave them ANOTHER comforter. Yes, the Father and the don and the Holy Ghost are all Gid, these three are one. But distinct persons and work in believers. We read of the spirit of the Father speaking in men and the Spirit of the Son in our hearts and the Holy Ghost in believers.

Then Jesus said to them again, Peace be to you; as the Father has sent Me, I also send you.
And when He had said this, He breathed into them and said to them, Receive the Holy Spirit. (John 20:21,22)

It was at resurrection He began (in John) to say His Father was now their Father.

The Father was already the believers Father way before the resurrection, many things were not clear to them and eventually the Holy Ghost would reveal things. Jesus also told them that when they pray say “Our Father… “, Jesus had manifested the Fathers name to them and kept them in his name during his ministry (John 17 KJV).

. . . for I have not yet ascended to the Father; but go to My brothers and say to them,
I ascend to My Father and your Father, and My God and your God. (John 20:17b)

It is in resurrection He became in a state in which He could dwell within man as "a life giving Spirit".

the last Adam became a life-giving Spirit. (1 Cor. 15:45b)

He has always been the life and light. If men. Read John 1:1-9.

It is in resurrection that we become regenerated unto a living hope - the living indwelling Lord Jesus.

Since the time of Adam men could be born again and saved and be in Christ having the inward circumcision of the heart. . If any man have not the Spirit of Christ he is none of his

who according to His great mercy has regenerated us unto a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, (1 Pet. 1:3b)

We now have a full assurance of hope by Christ resurrection which or saint did not have that assurance and their conscience. (With knowledge) could not be made clean or perfect yet. But they could have a new heart and life and be saved and born again. Again this is a long talk with soo much scripture we would be writing all day.

The day we shall know He is in the Father and we in Him and He in us is the day we recieve Him in resurrection.

In that day you will know that I am in My Father, and you in Me, and I in you. (John 14:20)

Knowing spiritual things and understanding did become clearer with the Holy Ghost showing them. But this mystery was still there in them and hidden in the past.

I am aware of verses that could be offered to show the Spirit was in, for example, some of the prophets.
But there are two great becames in the New Testament that show the process the Triune God passed through in order to be our life.

1.) The Word became flesh (John 1:14).
2.) The last Adam became a life giving Spirit (1 Cor. 15:45)

Yes, without Hesus wirk in time and his life, death on the cross for sin and resurrection, none could have been saved or can be saved. but God sees the heart the inward secret things and could give them the substance of things hoped for through faith. They were hungering after His righteousness and were filled.

The first step as you know concerns the incarnation of God as a man.
The second step concerns this God-man becoming in a form that He could impart the life of this God-man GIVING us Christ from within.

The God-man would not leave us as orphans. But He would come to us in resurrection.

Jesus was always with them even before he was risen. His sheep knew his voice even when he called them. They were his sheep and in him and had eternal life as Jesus said about his sheep.

For the coming of the Another Comforter is actually the coming of the Lord Jesus in the form of a life giving Spirit.

And I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Comforter, that He may be with you forever,

The other comforter is the distinct person of the Trinity the Holy Ghost. It is interesting that the word “another” used here shows two distinct persons. Just like when Jesus says “I and my a Father”, shows two distinct persons yet one God.

Even the Spirit of reality, whom the world cannot receive, because it does not behold Him or know Him; but you know Him, because He abides with you and shall be in you.

Again speaking of the specific future event of them having the Holy Ghost. They already had the Spirit of the Father and Christ in them as can be shown in scripture. But the fullness and baotism with the Holy Ghost they did not have yet,

I will not leave you as orphans; I am coming to you. (John 14:16-18)

Notice that the Him and the He of verse 17 suddenly becomes the I of verse 18.

Jesus also is in every believer and the Father and the Holy Ghost.

When some here the word Spirit they assume it is only the Holy Ghost spoken of but scripture speak differently about this.

It is evident in Matthew's gospel Jesus does speak of "your Father" and we should pray "our Father".
His speaking there is in view of what will happen when He becomes the life giving Spirit in resurrection to bring
He and His Father as the Spirit as the divine "We" into His lovers.

I take the Lord's words in Matthew's gospel indicating God as our Father to be anticipatory.
From the standpoint of God's transcendent viewpoint it has all taken place already - His economical dispensing of Himself into man.

For you are not the ones speaking, but the Spirit of your Father is the One speaking in you. (Matt. 10:20)

Matthew and John compliment each other rather than contradict each other.
If I believe the Father is already indwelling the disciples before Christ's death and resurrection then John must be in error.
For John records Christ taking the expedient step of going from abiding WITH the disciples to abiding IN the disciples.
But that would be unnecessary if He were already in the disciples before His going to accomplish redemption for man.

On the other hand I cannot say Matthew is mistaken to record Jesus saying before His redemptive act that
the Father was thier Father.

I resolve this tension by viewing Matthew 's record of Christ's teaching as anticipatory.

I don’t see it that way. Jesus spoke of the present ministry he sent them on that the Spirit of the Father would speak in them when needed. We know this is not only speaking of future events because he says fir them to not go the way if the gentiles but only to those in Israel. Clearly this was for that present time and not after the resurrection (even though such ministry can also extend to that later events).

Matthew 10: 5. These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not: 6. But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.”

And he told them that were sent to Israel that the Spirit of the Father would speak in them when needed. They did not have the Holy Ghost in them yet but He was with them also.

 

[oikonomia]

You gotta pay attention in order to keep up with the conversation.

The spirit of man requires regeneration in the New Testament.
The soul of man requires transformation.
The body requires transfiguration.

A lot of my discussion on this thread which I started is about these matters. And to simply long to die to go to heaven OR
to assume God wants unclothed, naked souls in heaven OR heaven is the intended eternal destiny of Christians - these prevailing
beliefs need re-examination. Especially they need re-evaluation to those who seek to go on to a more mature understanding of
God's household management and purpose - His economy.

Now as I read the New Testament all the instances I see of any people clearly in heaven occur after they have
been resurrected, transfigured, and raptured there having been fully suited, preserved complete and without blame through His
extensive salvation to be there in heaven.

The souls seen underneath the altar in Revelation chapter 6 and the 5th seal are not in heaven.
"Underneath the altar" should mean underneath the earth. They sacrificed their lives on earth and they cry out to God
from Paradise or "Abraham's Bosom" underneath the earth.

And when He opened the fifth seal, I saw underneath the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God and because of the testimony which they had.

And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Master, holy and true, will You not judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?

And to each of them was given a white robe; and it was said to them that they should rest yet a little while, until also the number of their fellow slaves and their brothers who were about to be killed, even as they were, is completed. (Rev. 6:9-11)

Since they are at rest they are comfortable even as Lazarus was comfortable after dying and being taken by the angels
to Abraham's bosom in Luke 16. Isn't he comforted there in "the heart of the earth" where Jesus went for three days
on the day He died?

For just as Jonah was in the belly of the great fish three days and three nights, so will the Son of Man be in the heart of the earth three days and three nights. (Matt. 22:40)

Where did Jesus take the believing thief that very day, when Jesus said "This day you will be with Me in Paradise" ?
He must have taken the saved believing thief to "the heart of the earth" where Paradise is.

Did Jesus on "this day" (the day of His crucifixion) go to Heaven? No. The Bible says He descended to the lower parts of the earth.
(Now this, “He ascended,” what is it except that He also descended into the lower parts of the earth? (Eph. 4:9)

No one is trying to rob you of your hope to be comfortable with your Father when you die.
Can your Father place you somewhere to be comfortable in "the heart of the earth" until your resurrection and transfiguration are accomlpished? Would you allow Him to keep you "with the Lord" and "abroad from the body" for that temporary time?