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What saves, in my opinion

d taylor

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I really cannot understand how somebody can possibly believe that "Jesus is the Son of God, the promised Messiah, the resurrection and the life" (to quote you) and at the same time not believe that He has authority. Also, the words of Jesus about the man who built his house on sand say "Everyone who hears these sayings of mine and does not do them." Nothing about mature believers.
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If you are not familiar with this book, a great book about Lordship salvation. Which i believe is not a Biblical salvation.

Amazon.com
 
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All Becomes New

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OP, I appreciated the analogies that you used to share your understanding.

I would largely agree with what you said. I think our differences are largely superficial. I do believe that salvation is a condition of our heart that is represented by beliefs about God and what He has done for us and about our behaviors and how we ought to act in the world to be worthy of our calling. I also believe that there should theoretically be a progressive sanctification in our lives to show we are saved (or deification or theosis--whatever term you want to use).

Lastly, I am confused about your language about the number of the Spirit. Surely you do not mean to say that the Holy Spirit's number is 666, right? That would not do. The book of Revelation talks about the mark of the beast being the number of man, which is 666, and anyone who takes the mark is forsaken forever. This is during the time of the Great Tribulation. In any case, I do not mean to get into the weeds with this question about escatology and whatnot, but I simply cannot parse what it is you are saying. Could you explain?
 
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David Lamb

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Do you really expect a person who may have just believed in Jesus. To understand the full resume of Jesus and who He completely is.

That is what disciplining new believers is about, so they may grow in their faith and move from a believer who is still taking milk.

Why do you think Paul writes
I fed you with milk and not with solid food; for until now you were not able to receive it, and even now you are still not able; for you are still carnal. For where there are envy, strife, and divisions among you, are you not carnal and behaving like mere men?
Of course I don't expect a new believer to understand completely Who Jesus is, but if they don't realise that He has authority, that in that sense He is Lord, then The Jesus they are believing in is not the Jesus of the bible.
 
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SabbathBlessings

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There is not a single verse that states faith has to be obedient to give a person God's free gift of Eternal Life. Belief in Jesus happens in a moment of time.

Saying faith will produce obedience, is the same as saying obedience saves.
John 5: 38 But you do not have His word abiding in you, because whom He sent, Him you do not believe.

Believing in Jesus means abiding in His Word.

Abiding in Jesus means following His example ..

1 John 2:5 But whoever keeps His word, truly the love of God is perfected in him. By this we know that we are in Him. 6 He who says he abides in Him ought himself also to walk just as He walked.
 
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d taylor

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Of course I don't expect a new believer to understand completely Who Jesus is, but if they don't realise that He has authority, that in that sense He is Lord, then The Jesus they are believing in is not the Jesus of the bible.
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So you are saying a person is told Jesus is The Son of God the promised Messiah, the resurrection and the life. That to become a born again child of God they need to believe Jesus this about Jesus. they say yes i do believe Jesus is The Son of God, etc...

But as they live their life, like the parable of the soil illustrates (2nd and 3rd soils). They become distracted by the ways of the world and even fall away from faith, etc..

You are saying that this person really believed in another Jesus.

How in the world has this type of thinking, worked its way into Biblical beliefs about receiving God's free of Eternal Life salvation. It is certainty not supported by The Bible.
 
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d taylor

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John 5: 38 But you do not have His word abiding in you, because whom He sent, Him you do not believe.

Believing in Jesus means abiding in His Word.

Abiding in Jesus means following His example ..

1 John 2:5 But whoever keeps His word, truly the love of God is perfected in him. By this we know that we are in Him. 6 He who says he abides in Him ought himself also to walk just as He walked.
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John 5:38 plainly states Jesus is addressing people who do not believe. It is even stated in the verse, but yet you try and use a verse to address a discussion about believers. amazing!
 
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SabbathBlessings

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John 5:38 plainly states Jesus is addressing people who do not believe. It is even stated in the verse, but yet you try and use a verse to address a discussion about believers. amazing!
Yes, its stated if you do not abide in His word, because you do not believe. Salvation belief is more than I just I believe in Jesus it means abiding in His Word. Be-living Jesus- how did Jesus live, what did He teach.

Its just common sense if we believe in Jesus we would believe His teachings and do them.

James 1:22 But be doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving yourselves.
 
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d taylor

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Yes, its stated if you do not abide in His word, because you do not believe. Salvation belief is more than I just I believe in Jesus it means abiding in His Word. Be-living Jesus- how did Jesus live, what did He teach.

Its just common sense if we believe in Jesus we would believe His teachings and do them.

James 1:22 But be doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving yourselves.
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No it is not, Eternal Life salvation is only by belief in Jesus. Any abiding added as a requirement for a person to receive Eternal Life salvation, is works based.
 
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SabbathBlessings

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No it is not, Eternal Life salvation is only by belief in Jesus. Any abiding added as a requirement for a person to receive Eternal Life salvation, is works based.
Belief is a work. We were created for good works, like belief, faith obedience but its a choice a decision Rom 6:16

Eph 2:10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

I know of no scripture that says we can believe in Jesus and not do His will and be saved. Its the whole reason man was separated from God Isa 59:2, the reason Lucifer was cast out from heaven and is not what shows what reconciles us Rev 22:14.

Scripture is more than one verse, scripture will define what it means like John 5:38 defines believing in Him is abiding in His Word as does John 3:16-21 Guess we will all find out soon enough, but if we love Jesus why would we not want to follow His teachings and live by them like He tells us to Mat 4:4

Salvation is by grace through faith, those with faith live differently than those who don't have faith Rom 3:31 Rev 14:12 this is the faith that reconciles us Rev 22:14 not to be saved, but because one is saved.
 
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d taylor

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Belief is a work. We were created for good works, like belief, faith obedience but its a choice a decision Rom 6:16

Eph 2:10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

I know of no scripture that says we can believe in Jesus and not do His will and be saved. Its the whole reason man was separated from God Isa 59:2, the reason Lucifer was cast out from heaven and is not what shows what reconciles us Rev 22:14.

Scripture is more than one verse, scripture will define what it means like John 5:38 defines believing in Him is abiding in His Word as does John 3:16-21 Guess we will all find out soon enough, but if we love Jesus why would we not want to follow His teachings and live by them like He tells us to Mat 4:4

Salvation is by grace through faith, those with faith live differently than those who don't have faith Rom 3:31 Rev 14:12 this is the faith that reconciles us Rev 22:14 not to be saved, but because one is saved.
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No there are plenty of scriptures that say Eternal Life salvation is receive by belief and not by belief and obedience. You just do not believe them.

One example is
“Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life.

Nothing in this verse in John states obedience is a requirement

This is really a pointless discussion, as I will never believe your view of the scriptures. As your view promotes a works based theology in receiving God's free gift of Eternal Life salvation.
 
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d taylor

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Belief is a work. We were created for good works, like belief, faith obedience but its a choice a decision Rom 6:16

Eph 2:10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

I know of no scripture that says we can believe in Jesus and not do His will and be saved. Its the whole reason man was separated from God Isa 59:2, the reason Lucifer was cast out from heaven and is not what shows what reconciles us Rev 22:14.

Scripture is more than one verse, scripture will define what it means like John 5:38 defines believing in Him is abiding in His Word as does John 3:16-21 Guess we will all find out soon enough, but if we love Jesus why would we not want to follow His teachings and live by them like He tells us to Mat 4:4

Salvation is by grace through faith, those with faith live differently than those who don't have faith Rom 3:31 Rev 14:12 this is the faith that reconciles us Rev 22:14 not to be saved, but because one is saved.
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Can a person go to heaven if they do not observe the sabbath?
 
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SabbathBlessings

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Can a person go to heaven if they do not observe the sabbath?
God never separated this commandment the way man has, other than starting it with Remember Exo 20:8, as He knew man would teach to forget. The commandments came in a unit of Ten numbered by design by God Himself, Exo 34:28 Deut 4:13 written personally by God's on His Authority Exo 31:18 Exo 32:16 breaking one we break them all even in the NT James 2:10-12. Our salvation is from sin Mat 1:21 we are not saved in our sins. Sin is breaking God's law 1 John 3:4 James 2:10-12 Mat 5:19-30 Rom 7:7, we must confess and forsake our sins Pro 28:13 and can only do that though love and faith in Christ, by His power John 14:15-18. The Sabbath commandment is no different than breaking the 1st commandment to not worship other gods or the 5th commandment etc 1 John 2:4. Can we do that and go to heaven? Rev 22:15 1 John 2:4 Not unless we repent and turn from our sin and turn to Christ It why Jesus in His own Words taught not to break or teach others to break the least of these commandments. or one would be in fear of sin and Judgment Mat 5:19-30 A saved person abides in His word and those who do ought to walk just as He walked. 1 John 5-6 How did Jesus live, did He keep the commandments and teach us to. He sure did. Luke 4:16 Isa 56:1-6 John 14:15 John 15:10 Mat 15:3-14 Mat 5:19-30 Mat 19:17-19 etc
 
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d taylor

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God never separated this commandment the way man has, other than starting it with Remember Exo 20:8, as He know man would teach to forget. The commandments came in a unit of Ten numbered by design by God Himself, Exo 34:28 Exo 31:18 breaking one we break them all James 2:10-12. Our salvation is from sin Mat 1:21 we are not saved in our sins sin is breaking God's law 1 John 3:4 James 2:10-12 Mat 5:19-30 Rom 7:7, we must confess and forsake our sins Pro 28:13 and can only do that though love and faith in Christ, by His power John 14:15-18. The Sabbath commandment is no different than breaking the 1st commandment to not worship other gods or the 5th commandment etc 1 John 2:4. Can we do that and go to heaven? Not unless we repent and turn from our sin and turn to Christ It why Jesus in His own Words taught not to break or teach others to break the least of these commandments. Mat 5:19-30
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So you believe obedience to the commandments is a requirement to receive God's free gift of Eternal Life salvation and go to heaven after death.
 
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SabbathBlessings

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So you believe obedience to the commandments is a requirement to receive God's free gift of Eternal Life salvation and go to heaven after death.
I believe God's gift of salvation is grace through faith Eph 2:8 obedience to God is a consequence of faith, not a means of salvation. God's law is to show us our sin Rom 3:20 Rom 7:7 and so we are not depending on our righteousness but God's Psa 119:172 Isa 56:1-6 God's law doesn't save us, only Christ saves through faith. Faith upholds the law, not voids it Rom 3:31 Anyone can say Lord Lord and believe in Jesus, but who is willing to put His will above our own. Mat 7:21-23 God's will is expressed through his Word and He wrote His will in our hearts Psa 40:8 Heb 8:10 rebelling against what God placed there is not how we are reconciled Rev 22:14-15

Scripture reveals the fruit of a saved person, but will we believe?

Rev 12:14 Here is the patience of the saints; here are those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus.
 
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SabbathBlessings

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No there are plenty of scriptures that say Eternal Life salvation is receive by belief and not by belief and obedience. You just do not believe them.

One example is
“Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life.

Nothing in this verse in John states obedience is a requirement

This is really a pointless discussion, as I will never believe your view of the scriptures. As your view promotes a works based theology in receiving God's free gift of Eternal Life salvation.
Thats not what I asked, I asked where does it say we can believe in Christ but not do His will and be saved. why would a saved person want to do this. This is actually the first deception in the garden, that we can disobey God and live Gen 3:4, when God stated otherwise. Genesis 2:16-17 Sad this deception is still working.
 
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d taylor

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I believe God's gift of salvation is grace through faith Eph 2:8 obedience to God is a consequence of faith, not a means of salvation. God's law is to show us our sin Rom 3:20 Rom 7:7 and so we are not depending on our righteousness but God's Psa 119:172 Isa 56:1-6 God's law doesn't save us, only Christ saves through faith. Faith upholds the law, not voids it Rom 3:31 Anyone can say Lord Lord and believe in Jesus, but who is willing to put His will above our own. Mat 7:21-23 God's will is expressed through his Word and He wrote His will in our hearts Psa 40:8 Heb 8:10 rebelling against what God placed there is not how we are reconciled Rev 22:14-15

Scripture reveals the fruit of a saved person, but will we believe?

Rev 12:14 Here is the patience of the saints; here are those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus.
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That is not what you have said (post 32)
Not unless we repent and turn from our sin and turn to Christ It why Jesus in His own Words taught not to break or teach others to break the least of these commandments. or one would be in fear of sin and Judgment Mat 5:19-30

At best you state a confusing Eternal Life salvation message. So according to what you have written a person must obey the commandments, repent, abide in His Word, trust Jesus. A classic example of a works based eternal life salvation.
 
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d taylor

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Thats not what I asked, I asked where does it say we can believe in Christ but not do His will and be saved. why would a saved person want to do this. This is actually the first deception in the garden, that we can disobey God and live Gen 3:4, when God stated otherwise. Genesis 2:16-17 Sad this deception is still working.
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John 5:24 plainly states when a person believes they have everlasting life and has crossed over from death to life.

The verse does not say will eventually cross over (after a final judgment) from death to life if they obey the commandments and abide in God's Word.
 
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SabbathBlessings

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John 5:24 plainly states when a person believes they have everlasting life and has crossed over from death to life.

The verse does not say will eventually cross over (after a final judgment) from death to life if they obey the commandments and abide in God's Word.
And other verses tell us what it means to believe John 5:38 John 3:16-21. The bible is not based on a verse or two. It's why its a large book and takes years to read through and we are told to live by every Word Mat 4:4, not just some words.
Jer 29:13 You will seek me and find me when you seek me with all your heart.
 
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SabbathBlessings

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That is not what you have said (post 32)
Not unless we repent and turn from our sin and turn to Christ It why Jesus in His own Words taught not to break or teach others to break the least of these commandments. or one would be in fear of sin and Judgment Mat 5:19-30

At best you state a confusing Eternal Life salvation message. So according to what you have written a person must obey the commandments, repent, abide in His Word, trust Jesus. A classic example of a works based eternal life salvation.
Not my words, there are the words of Christ. IMHO Its hard to make the case to believe in Christ but not believe what He taught or tells us to do. Seems like an oxymoron, but we all are given free will.

Guess we will have to agree to disagree. All will get sorted out soon enough.

Thanks for the chat.
 
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Clare73

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-It is when faith is defined as obeying. An example that is often used, is the. If you do not sit in the chair, then you do not really believe it will support you and not collapse.​

There is no test to as whether a person has believed in Jesus.
One test of saving faith is obedience in one's life after salvation by faith only.

Obedience does not prove true faith, but no obedience proves no true faith.
 
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