What exactly is a lustful thought?

[ForumGuy]

I googled this and I can find dozens of sites condeming them, yet no one seems prepared to explain then fully.
So in simple terms, what is a lustful thought? How do we know when we are in lust, or dangerously close?
I mean its aobvious if were thinking about having sex with someone then thats the lust, but what about something else?

 

[WarriorAngel]

I googled this and I can find dozens of sites condeming them, yet no one seems prepared to explain then fully.
So in simple terms, what is a lustful thought? How do we know when we are in lust, or dangerously close?
I mean its aobvious if were thinking about having sex with someone then thats the lust, but what about something else?

Lust is different than love.

It is raw, it is carnal, and salacious vs gentle caring and genuine desire for the other persons well being and friendship.

Lust is raw desire and fleshly concerns. It is basically when two ppl get along better in bed than out of bed. And who do not care for one another more than having explicit desires.
Lust fades away. Love does not.

A lustful thought is about sex.

 

[enelya_taralom]

I don't think I'd qualify all thoughts about sex as being lustful.

Sex is not a bad thing to think about, depending on your motives in doing so.

As defined by Christopher West in his Created and Redeemed Theology of the Body DVD's, lust is: "sexual desire without the love of God. It leads to self-gratification at the expense of others."

ForumGuy: If you'd really like to understand this better, I HIGHLY recommend checking out Theology of the Body, www.theologyofthebody.com It's an amazing study that Pope John Paul II did on God's plan and design in our bodies, marriage and sex. It came from seven years of meditation and study upon Scripture.

Christopher West is a graduate of the JPII institute and has dedicated his ministry to spreading the good news of this study. He has an amazing DVD set called "Created and Redeemed." Below I have pasted three of the study notes from the first three talks of DVD. Hopefully they help you understand a lust, and our sexual desires a bit better (you'll probably find talks two and three the most interesting and beneficial).

God Bless

from Created and Redemeed (Study Guide)



Theology of the Body: Talk 1: An Education in Being Human



1. The Foundation of Human Life

In every age men and women- even if sometimes only secretly- have been fascinated with sex.

1a. "Why in the world are we so consumed by [sex]?
The impluse to procreate may lie at the heart of [it],
but... bursting from our sexual center is a whole
spangle of other things- art, song, romance,
obession, rapture, sorrow, companionship, love
even violence and criminality- all playing an
enormous role in everything from our physical
[and] emotional health to our politics, our
communities, our very life spans. Why should
this be so? Did nature simply overload us in the
mating department...? Or is the something smarter
and subtler at work, some larger interplay among
sexuality, life and what it means to be human?"
(Time Magazine, Jan 19, 2004, p.64)​

The issue of sex is not footnote in human life. It is a question of utmost importance to each and every one of us, and to the survival of civilization itself.​

1b. The call to communion inscribed in our sexuality
is "the fundamental element of human existence
in the world" (TB, 16), "the foundation of human life"
(EM, n.46), and hence, "the deepest substratum
[foundation] of human ethics and culture." (TB, 163)​

Sexual attitudes and behaviors have the power to orient not only individuals, but entire nations and societies toward respect for life- or toward its utter disregard.​

1c. "It is an illusion to think we can build a true
culture of human life if we do not... accept and
experience sexuality and love and the whole of life
according to their true meaning and their close
interconnection" (EV, n.97).​

In short, as sex goes, so go marriage and the family. As marriage and the family go, so goes the world. Such logic does not bode well for today's culture.​

• If the task of the 20th century was to rid itself of the Christian sexual ethic, the task of the 21st century must be to reclaim it.​
• But the repressive approach of the previous generations of Christians isn't going to suffice​
• We need a fresh approach that reveals the beauty of God's plan for sex and the joy of living it.​
• God grants the Church what she needs, when she needs it.​

The "theology of the body" is a collection of 129 short talks John Paul II delivered early in his pontificate on the meaning of the human body, sex, and martial love.​

• Yet, it is not only for the marries. Nor is it only for Catholics.​
• The message of the theology of the body is universal​
• It reveals precisely that "larger interplay among sexuality, life and what it means to be human."​

1d. Though it focuses on sexual love, the theology
of the body affords "the rediscovery of the
meaning of the whole existence, the meaning of
life" (TB, 168)


1e. The theology of the body is "one of the boldest
reconfigurations of Catholic theology in centuries"-
"a kind of theological time bomb set to go off with
dramatic consequences... perhaps in the twenty-first
century" (WH, 336, 343)​

2. Understanding the Body as a "Theology"

We cannot see God. As a pure Spirit, God is totally beyong our vision. Yet Christians believe that the invisible God has made himself visible. How?​

2a. In "the body of Jesus 'we see our God made
visible and so are caught up in the love of the God
we cannot see' " (CCC, n.477).​

God's mystery revealed in human flesh- the theology of the body : this is not only a series of talks by John Paul II. This is the very "logic" of Christianity.​

2b. "Through the fact that the Word of God became
flesh, the body entered theology... through the
main door" (TB, 89).


2c. "The body, in fact, and it alone, is capable of making visible what is invisible: the spiritual and divine. It was created to transfer into the visible reality of
the world, the mystery hidden since time immemorial in God, and thus to
be a sign of it" (TB, 76). ​

3. God's Mystery & the Spousal Analogy

What is the mystery hidden in God that the body signifies? In a word- communion.​

3a. "God has revealed his innermost secret: God
himself is an eternal exchange of love, Father, Son
and Holy Spirit, and he has destined us to share in
that exchange" (CCC, n.221)​

Scripture uses many images to describe God's love. Each has its own valuable palce. But the spousal image is used far more than any other.​

• The Bible begins and ends with marriage- Adam-Eve and Christ-Church​
• Spousal theology looks to the nuptial "book ends" of Genesis and Revelation as a key for interpreting what lies between.​
• Through the lens of the spousal analogy we learn that God's eternal plan is to "marry" us (see Hos 2:19)​
• God wanted this eternal plan of love and communion to be so obvious to us that he stamped an image of it in our very being by creating us male and female.​

"'For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh.' This is a great mystery, and I mean in reference to Christ and the church" (EP 5:21 - 32).​

3b. Understanding the true meaning of the body
and sexuality "concerns the entire Bible" (TB, 249).
It plunges us into "the perspective of the whole
Gospel, of the whole meaning, in fact, of the whole
mission of Christ" (TB, 175).



3c. "John Paul's portrait of sexual love as an icon
of the interior life of God has barely begun to shape
the Church's theology, preaching, and religious
education. When it does, it will compel a dramatic
development of thinking about virtually every major
theme in the Creed." (WH, 853)​

Like all analogies, the image of sexual love, while very helpful, is also limited and inadequate.​

3d. "In no way is God in man's image. He is neither
man nor woman. God is pure spirit in which there
is no place for the difference between the sexes"
(CCC, n.370, see also nn. 42,239)



3e. God's mystery "remains transcendent in regard
to [the spousal] analogy as in regard to any other
anaology, whereby we seek to express it in human
language" (TB, 330). At the same time, however,
there "is no other human reality which corresponds
more, humanly speaking, to that divine mystery" (homily, 12/30/88).​

4. Battle for the Body


Satan seeks to counter God's plan by plagiarizing the sacraments (Tertullian).​

• God's eternal plan for the body is union, communion, marriage; this brings life.​
• Satan's counter-plan for the body is seperation, fracture, divorce; this brings death.​
• St. Paul's first words of advice: "gird your loins with the truth" (Eph 6:14)​

4a. Marriage and the family are "placed at the center
of the great struggle between good and evil,
between life and death, between love and all that
is opposed to love" (LF, n.23)​

5. Structure of the Teaching

Through an in-depth reflection on the Scriptures, John Paul seeks to answer two universal questions:​

1. "What does it mean to be human?"​
2. "How a I supposed to live my life in a way that brings true happiness?"​

These questions frame the two main parts of the Pope's study. In turn, each of these two parts contains three "cycles" or subdivisions broken down as follows:

PART 1: "What does it mean to be human?"​

• Cycle 1: Our Origin. This concerns man's experience of the body and sex before sin. It's based on Christ's discussion with the Pharisees about God's plan for marriage "in the beginning" (see Mt 19:3-9)
• Cycle 2: Our History. This concerns man's experience of the body and sex affected by sin, yet redeemed in Christ. It's based on Jesus' words in the Sermon in the Mount regarding adultery committed "in the heart" (see Mt 5: 27-28)
• Cycle 3: Our Destiny. This concerns man's experience of the body and sex in the resurrection. It's based on Christ's discussion with the Sadducees regarding the body's ressurrected state (see Mt 22:23-33)

PART II: "How am I supposed to live my life?"

• Cycle 4: Celibacy for the Kingdom. This is a reflection on Christ's words about those who renounce marriage for the kingdom of heaven (see Mt 19:12)
• Cycle 5: Christian Marriage. This is primarily a reflection on St. Paul's grand "spousal analogy" in Ephesians 5.
• Cycle 6: Sexual Morality & Procreation. In light of his preceeding analysis, John Paul shifts the discussion on sexual morality from legalism ("How far can I go before I break the law?") to liberty ("What's the truth of sexuality that sets me free to love?").

6. A Message of "Sexual Salvation"


Those hwo have been turned-off by judgemental moralizers will find John Paul's approach delightfully refreshing.

• The Pope imposes nothing and wags a finger at no one.
• He simply invites us to reflect with him on God's Word and our own experience to see if the love held out in the Scriptures is the love we reallt yearn for,
• It doesn't matter where we've been or what mistakes we've made. This is a message of "sexual salvation"- not condemnation.

Study Questions:

1) Have you ever considered that we could understand the body as a "theology" (a study of God)?

2) Why is this teaching for all people and not just for married couples?

3) What is the effect of a culture's understanding of sexuality on its overall health?

4) In what ways does the body make visible things that are invisible?

5) In what ways might the human family "image" the Trinity: Father, Son and Holy Spirit?

6) There are various images the Bible uses to describe God's love for us.

• Why do you think the spousal image is used far more than any other?
• How do you feel about the idea that God wants to "marry" us (see Hosea 2:19)?

7) What are some of the "counterfeits" we commonly accept in our culture? What would Jesus say to those pursuing counterfeit loves?

8) What are the two universal questions Pope John Paul II seeks to answer through Theology of the Body?

9) Why is it important to look at our origin, history and destiny?

As you study Theology of the Body, consider these age-old questions:

• Where do I come from and why do I exist?
• What is the meaning of live and how do I live it?
• What is my ultimate destiny and how so I attain it?
• Why is there evil in the world and how do I overcome it?

For more see:

Created and Redeemed (DVD) : [FONT=arial, helvetica, sans-serif]An Eight-Part Adult Faith Formation Program Based on Pope John Paul II’s Theology of the Body. This eight-talk presentation on the Theology of the Body offers a more thorough treatment than the Introductory Series. This series will help deepen your understanding of God's Plan for marriage and human sexuality.[/FONT]

Article: What is Theology of the Body and Why is it changing so many lives?

Article: What Makes the Body "Theological"?


www.theologyofthebody.com

 

[enelya_taralom]

from Created and Redemeed (Study Guide) (with my own personal notes from the DVD added in italic)

Cycle 1: Our Origin

1) Christ Points us Back to "the Beginning"

"For your hardness of heart Moses allowed you to divorce your wives, but from the beginning it was not so" (Mt 19:8)​

• By starting with Christ's words, the Pope makes a specfic statement​
• If our goal is to understand "who we are", we must turn to Christ​

a. Christ "fully reveals man to himself and makes his supreme calling clear" (GS, n.22) -- by showing us the meaning of love- His love is spiritual, but revealed by His body given up for us


1b. The "first man and the first woman must constitute... the model... for all men and women who, in any period, are united so intimately as to be 'one flesh' " (TB, 50)



2) Man is "Alone" in the World (Original Solitude)​

"Then the Lord God said, 'It is not good that man
should be alone'" (Gen 2:18)​

• This means not only that man is "alone" without the opposite sex, but that the human being (male and female) is "alone" in the visible world as a person​
• Adam recognizes he's "different" from the animals. he's made in God's image. He has freedom- the capacity to choose between good and evil.​
• Adam realizes his fundamental vocation; love of God and love of neighbour (see Lk 10:27)​
• All this is experienced in the body​

2a. The "body expresses the person." It reveals "who man is (and who he should be)" (TB, 41)


2b. The man "might have reached the conclusion, on the basis of the experience of his own body, that he was substantially similar to the [animals]. But on the contrary, ... he reached the conviction that he was 'alone'" (TB, 39)



3) Called to live in a Relationship (Original Unity) -- not just marriage


Man "cannot fully find himself except through the sincere gift of himself" (GS, n.24) "Therefore a man leaves his father and his mother and cleaves to his wife, and they become one flesh" (Gen 2:24)


*gift: to love as Christ did, "this is my body given for you" ​

• Their unity in "one flesh" is worlds apart from the copulation of animals. Unlike the animals, man and woman have the capacity to love (freedom).​
• Therefore, like the experience of "solitude", unity also reveals that man and woman are created in God's image.​

3a. Becoming "one flesh" refers not only to the joining of two bodies but is "a sacramental expression which corresponds to the communion of persons" (TB, 123) --- body expresses the person, sacrament: the human body makes visible the spiritual


3b. "Man becomes the image of God not so much in the moment of solitude as in the moment of communion." In other words, man images God "not only through his own humanity, but also through the communion of persons which man and woman form right form the beginning ... On all this, right from the beginning, there descended the blessing of fertility linked with human procreation" (TB, 46)


4) Nakedness without Shame (Orginial Nakedness)​

"And the man and his wife were both naked
and were not ashamed" (Gen 2:25)​

• The Pope calls this the "key" for understanding God's original plan for man and woman (see TB, 52)​
• They experienced sexual desire only as the desire to love in God's image. There's no shame (fear) in love. "Perfect loves casts out fear" (1 Jn 4:18)​

4a. Nakedness reveals the nuptial meaning of the body which is the body's "capacity of expressing love: that love precisely in which the person becomes a gift and - by means of this gift- fulfills the very meaning of his being and existence." (TB, 63)


4b. "Nakedness signifies the original good of God's vision. It signifies... the 'pure' value of humaity as male and female, the 'pure' value of the body and sex" (TB, 57)


4c. Original nakedness demonstrates that "holiness entered the visible world." It is "in his body as male or female [that] man feels he is a subject of holiness." Holiness is what "enables man to express himself deeply with his own body... precisely by means of the 'sincere gift' of himself" (TB, 76-77).



Cycle 2: Our History


5) Questioning the Gift (Original Sin)​

"You will not die. For God knows that when you eat of
it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil" (Gn 3:4-5)​

• When God is conceived of as a jealous tyrant, man is goaded to do battle against Him so as not to be enslaved​
• Faith leads to "receptivity" before God. Lack of faith leads to "grasping."​
• When we deny the gift of God, we lose our capacity to be a gift to one another​

5a. Woman "is the repesentative and the archtype of the whole human race: she represents the humanity which belongs to all human beings, both men and women" (MD, n.4).

5b. The "paradigm of master-slave is foreign to the Gospel" (CTH, p.226)

5c. By questioning love as God's motive in creation "man turns his back on... 'the Father.' In a way, he casts Him out of his heart" (TB, 111).

5d. "This is truly the key for interpreting reality... Original sin, then, attempts to abolish fatherhood" (CTH, p.228)

5e. If originial sin is the denial of the gift, "faith in its deepest essence, is the openness of the human heart to the gift: to God's self-communication in the Holy Spirit" (DV, n.51)


6) The Enterance of Shame​

When they disobeyed God "the eyes of both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together and made themselves aprons... 'I was afraid because I was naked, and I hid myself" (Gen 3:7,10)​

• When God's love "died" in their hearts, sexual desire became inverted, self-seeking.
• Lust, therefore, is sexual desire void of God's love.
• Lust causes us almost to stoop back to the level of animals, yet we still know we're called to more- we're called to love.
• Lust, therefore, is a "reduction" of God's original plan. It doesn't offer more, but less.

lust: sexual desire without the love of God. Leads to self-gratification at the expense of others


6a. "Man is ashamed of his body because of lust. In fact, he is ashamed not so much of his body as precisely of lust" (TB, 116).

6b. Shame also has a positive meaning as "a natural form of self-defense for the person against the danger of descending or being pushed into the position of an object for sexual use" (LR, 182)

6c. The 'heart' has become a battlefield between love and lust. The more lust dominates the heart, the less the [heart] experiences the nuptial meaning of the body" (TB, 126)


Study Questions- Talk #2 Created as Male and Female: God's Original Plan

1) When speaking of divorce, Jesus tells us in Matthew 19:8 that "from the beginning it was not so." Does it seem possible that the suffering and sinfulness in the world is not how we were created to be?

2) Have you received a glimpse of how great your dignity is as a human person?

3) What does it mean to say, "Christ fully reveals man to himself?"

4) One of teh key teachings of Vatican II states that "man cannot fully find himself except through the sincere gift of self." What does this mean?

5) In what primary way did Adam realize that he was different from the animals?

6) Becoming "one flesh" refers to much more than the joining of two bodies. Discuss the concept of "communion of persons."

7) John Paul II considers nakedness without shame as the key to understanding God's original plan for man and woman. To help you understand why, discuss the following questions:

• Why were Adam and Eve not ashamed in their nakedness prior to the Fall?
• What did originial nakedness signify?
• How did Adam and Eve experience sexual desire prior to the Fall?
• How did sexual desire change after the Fall?

8) Define 'lust.'

9) Whay would we instinctively cover ourselves if a stranger were to enter into a room and see us unclothed?

10) Why is it difficult for us to see that our bodies are holy? Although the body is good and holy, why is it appropriate that we cover ourselves in a fallen world?


For more see:

Created and Redeemed (DVD) : [FONT=arial, helvetica, sans-serif]An Eight-Part Adult Faith Formation Program Based on Pope John Paul II’s Theology of the Body. This eight-talk presentation on the Theology of the Body offers a more thorough treatment than the Introductory Series. This series will help deepen your understanding of God's Plan for marriage and human sexuality.[/FONT]

Audio Track: Nakedness without Shame

Article: Why do Men look at Porn? Oprah viewers want to know (.pdf)

Article: Of Birds, Bees and Human Beings Awesome article looking at human sex vs. animal sex (.pdf)

Article: Sharon Marries Cindy... the dolphin Crazy story about an English woman who has "married" a dolphin (.pdf)

CD: Woman: God's Masterpiece

www.theologyofthebody.com

 

[enelya_taralom]

Theology of the Body: Talk 3: Redeemed as Male and Female


from Created and Redemeed (Study Guide)


Christ Restores God's Plan


1. Adultery in the Heart

"You have heard it said, 'You shall not commit adultery,"
But I say to you, that everyone who looks at a
woman lustfully has already committed
adultery with her in his heart." (Mt 5:27-28)​

1a. "Are we to fear the severity of these words, or rather have confidence in their salvific... power?" (TB, 159)


1b. The heritage of our hearts "is deeper than the sinfulness inherited, deeper than lust... The words of Christ... reactive that deeper heritage and give it real power in man's life" (TB, 168)



1c. Christ calls us to experience "a real deep victory" over the distortion of lust (see TB, 164). Christ wants to inspire our sexuak desires "with everything that is noble and beautiful," with the "supreme value which is love" (see TB, 168).





2. Freedom from the Law and the "New Ethos"​

If "you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law" (Gal 5:18)​

• We all know that laws, in and of themselves, do not change human hearts​
• Christ did not come to give us more "rules" to follow; He came to change our hearts (ethos) so that we would no longer need the rules​
• Ethos refers to our inner-world of values, what attracts and repulses us.​
• In effect Christ says, "You've heard the commandment not to commit adultery, but the problem is you desire to commit adultery."​
• Through ongoing conversion, the desires of our hearts gradually conform to God's law, to the point that we are "free from the law."​

2a. "The Law of the Gospel... does not add new external precepts, but proceeds to reform the heart" (CCC, n.1968). In "the Sermon on the Mount... the Spirit of the Lord gives new form to our desires" (CCC, n.2764)


2b. "Christian ethose is characterized by a transformation of... both man and woman, such as to express and realize the value of the body and sex according to the Creator's originial plan" (TB, 163).


2c. The new ethos is "a living morality" in which we realize the very meaning of our humanity (see TB, 105)


2d. "The perfection of the moral good consists in man's being moved to the good not only by his will but also by his 'heart' and even "by his sensitive appetite" (CCC, n.1770, 1775)




3. The Redemption of the Body​

We "groan inwardly as we wait for.... the redemption
of our bodies" (Rom 8:23)​

• St. Paul vividly describes the interior battle we all experience between good and evil (see Romans 7)​
• But he also speaks of power of redemption at work within us which is able to do far more than we ever think or imagine (see Eph 3:20)​
• Balancing these truths, we find both a real battle with lust and the possibility of a real victory over it.​

3a. The "'redemption of the body' is expressed not only in the resurrection as victory over death. It is present also in Christ's words addressed to 'historical' man... when... Christ called man to overcome [lust] even in the ... movements of the human heart" (TB, 301).


3b. "Someone I was told, at the sight of a very beautiful body, felt impelled to glorify the Creator. The sight of it increased his love for God to the point of tears. Anyone who entertains such feelings in such circumstances is already risen... before the general resurrection" (john Climacus, The Ladder of Divine Assent, 15th step, 58, p.168)



3c. Christ's words about lust are "an invitation to a pure way of looking at others, capable of respecting the spousal [or nuptial] meaning of the body" (VS, n.15).




4. Purity of Heart ​

"Blessed are the pure in heart, for they shall see God" (Mt 5:8)​

• Christian purity is not prudishness or puritanism!​
• Mature Christian purity affords the ability to see God's mystery revealed in the human body and in man and woman's call to communion​

4a. "Purity is the glory of the human body before God. It is God's glory in the human body" (TB, 209)


4b. "Even now [purity of heart] enables us to see according to God...; it lets us perceive the human body- ours and our neighbours- as a temple of the Holy Spirit, a manifestation of divine beauty." (CCC, n.2519)


4c. Purity "is not just abstentiopn." There is "another role of the virtue of purity... more positive than negative." The positive dimension of purity "opens the way to a more and more perfect discovery of the dignity of the human body" (TB, 200; 213).



5. The Interpretation of Suspicion


Redemption does not magically remove the consequences of sin in this life. We still suffer, get ill, grow old, struggle with weaknesses and the pull of lust, etc. (see CCC, nn.978, 1226, 1264,1426). Yet, the reality of sin must not cause us to hold the human heart in continual suspicion.​

• A "master of suspicion" is a person who does not know or does not fully believe in the transforming power of the Gospel.​
• Lust holds sway in his own heart so he projects the same onto everyone else.​
• In his mind the human body will always rouse lust; it can do nothing else.​

5a. "Man cannot stop at putting the 'heart' in a state of continual and irreversible suspicion due to... lust... Redemption is a truth, a reality in the name of which man must feel called with efficacy" (TB, 167)


5b. "The meaning of life is the antithesis of the interpretation 'of suspicion.' This interpretation is very different, it is radically different from what we discover in Christ's words in the Sermon on the Mount. These words reveal... another vision of man's possibilites" (TB, 168).



Study Questions- Talk #3, Redeemed as Male and Female: Christ Restores God's Plan​

1. The Pope chose to begin this section with the verse: "You have heard that it was said, 'You shall not commit adultery.' But I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery in his heart" (Mt 5:27-28). Why does the Pope say we should not fear the severity of Christ's words about lust?​
2. Have you ever heard that Christ gives us "real power" to experience sexuality as the desire to love as God loves? Do you believe this?​
3. What does "ethos" mean? Do you believe your ethos can actually change?​
4. What is St. Paul referring to when he says we "groan inwardly as we wait... for the redemption of our bodies" (Rom. 8:23)?​
5. Why do most people think of Christian morality as an oppressive list of rules? What does it mean to be "free from the law"?​
6. In light of quotes 4a-4c, what does it mean to say, "Blessed are the pure in heart for they shall see God" (Mt. 5:8)?​
7. Discuss the fine balance between taking too lightly that which may appear scandalous and the position taken by a "master of suspicion."​