What are the requirements for a person to get to heaven?

[doubtingmerle]

i think ancient people fully believed in the sacrifice system. i think ancient christians said to them, in their converting "if you still require a sacrifice, let it be christ.". Then, everyone took it to be the main point of christ's coming to earth.

Which puts the Apostle Paul in a bad light, for he taught Jesus as a sacrifice.

If Paul's writings of Jesus were just about a made up sacrifice to appease the gentiles, one wanders what else the Bible writers just made up.

i think the main point of his life was his teaching and work though.

Perhaps, but the earliest writers didn't seem to think so. Paul had virtually no concern for Jesus's teaching and work while on Earth. Even Mark, the first gospel, doesn't show much interest in the teachings.

Do you really think this about god?

No, no, I don't imagine God would need people to kill his son before he could forgive. If people believe that, then let them defend it.

What do you really think about god??

This: Is There a God? - .

 

[doubtingmerle]

We get into Heaven by believing in Jesus Christ as our Lord and this belief will be manifested in our obedience to His Word.

What about all the clergy that have turned to crime? If all Christians manifest "obedience to His Word," how do you explain this? See Stop with the “Few Bad Apples” Rationalization When Excusing Clergy Misconduct .

 

[Confused-by-christianity]

Which puts the Apostle Paul in a bad light, for he taught Jesus as a sacrifice.

i value his personal religious experience - which i believe was real.
I believe it set him on a path for the rest of his life, to turn people to god - which is important.
So for me, thats his most valueable contribution - expressing his religious experience to others.

Thats not to say i expect people who have an experience with god, then get everything right all the time.

For that reason, i personally don't see him in a bad light. but each to his own i guess.

I just think he tried, sincerely, and thats enough.

if Paul's writings of Jesus were just about a made up sacrifice to appease the gentiles, one wanders what else the Bible writers just made up.

Do you think there was deliberate intent to deceive??

my thinking was paul either
1) compromised with their exisiting religions.
2) made an error
3) his message was misunderstood

I wasn't thinking that anyone deliberately went out to use deception to harm others.

(Also, my statement is purely speculation - thinking out loud - since the sacrifice system doesn't make sense to me)

No, no, I don't imagine God would need people to kill his son before he could forgive. If people believe that, then let them defend it.
This: Is There a God? - .

What do you think god is like??

 

[2PhiloVoid]

What about all the clergy that have turned to crime? If all Christians manifest "obedience to His Word," how do you explain this? See Stop with the “Few Bad Apples” Rationalization When Excusing Clergy Misconduct .

Because the Holy Spirit is only the "Mr. Clean" scrubbing agent ... and we're supposed to do a lot of the scrubbing of ourselves, ourselves.

But somehow, though, a number of folks seem to think that the Holy Spirit is to be a one-stop-shop for all that is preventative and ultra-marvelous in the world ... as if becoming born again is supposed to bring about the equivalent of shouting, "SHAZAM!!!"

 

[Studyman]

What are the requirements for a person to get to heaven?

I think the Jesus of the Bible addresses this very thing.

Matt. 19: 17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

 

[doubtingmerle]

I think the Jesus of the Bible addresses this very thing.

Matt. 19: 17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

Then why is it that so many Christians disagree with Jesus that you need to keep the commandments to go to heaven?

 

[doubtingmerle]

Because the Holy Spirit is only the "Mr. Clean" scrubbing agent ... and we're supposed to do a lot of the scrubbing of ourselves, ourselves.

But somehow, though, a number of folks seem to think that the Holy Spirit is to be a one-stop-shop for all that is preventative and ultra-marvelous in the world ... as if becoming born again is supposed to bring about the equivalent of shouting, "SHAZAM!!!"

Oh, I see, so Everlasting 33 wasn't giving me the straight scoop: "belief will be manifested in our obedience to His Word." So, apparently belief sometimes is not manifested in obedience to his word?

In that case, is believing in Jesus sufficient to go to heaven, or isn't it? Does one need more?

 

[Confused-by-christianity]

Oh, I see, so Everlasting 33 wasn't giving me the straight scoop: "belief will be manifested in our obedience to His Word." So, apparently belief sometimes is not manifested in obedience to his word?

In that case, is believing in Jesus sufficient to go to heaven, or isn't it? Does one need more?

Are you genuinely curious about what people believe and how they resolve apparent contradictions??

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Oh, I see, so Everlasting 33 wasn't giving me the straight scoop: "belief will be manifested in our obedience to His Word." So, apparently belief sometimes is not manifested in obedience to his word?

Exacta-mundo! Sometimes people believe, but for whatever reason, they don't express or exhibit a moral alignment with that supposed belief. And sometimes, they're really, really bad even while they say they believe. And some folks are unbelievably bad, which should tell us something.

In that case, is believing in Jesus sufficient to go to heaven, or isn't it? Does one need more?

I think I already implied in my previous post what "more" was needed............................Merle. Jesus said so (and derivatively, so did Matthew, Mark, Luke and John). Paul said so. Peter said so. James said so. And if you've read the entire New Testament---and from our previous chats years ago, I'm sure you have---then I think you already know this. We both know this.

But hey. Let's be frank. When people all over and through time prefer to create theology by cherry-picking favorite bible verses about "how easy it is to believe by God's Grace" and, what's more, ripping those same verses out of context by reading them in an utterly isolated fashion, those other numerous portions of the Bible that say, "Hey you, dastardly things can't be a part of your belief and faith in Christ, so don't do those things!" ............................tend to get shuffled off to the way side.

The moral of the story is: don't trust anyone in absolute terms, not even in a church. We should all know this. I've always known it; I even knew this while attending a Southern Baptist church as a "newly born again Christian" decades ago when I was a teenager, where they taught OSAS. Then, I also knew this when I slid on over to a Restoration Christian Church that taught, instead, that a guy could actually be at risk of Hell if he didn't align his actions and heart with his belief/faith.

I also knew that, on top of the existential challenge to believe which I've always had, if I were to try to take Christianity seriously and hopefully gain that elusive thing called "Eternal Life in Christ," I too would have to keep in mind the ongoing, grinding, recursive effort to "be a good guy" if I were to bother with being a Christian. Needless to say, it hasn't been an easy road on any philosophical level, but I'm trying. I'm also looking out for the other guy as I go ... ... I think I learned this last bit in Driver's Ed.

 

[Studyman]

Then why is it that so many Christians disagree with Jesus that you need to keep the commandments to go to heaven?

I think Jesus also addressed this.

Matt. 24: 3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no "man" deceive you. 5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I (Jesus) am Christ; and shall deceive many.

And HE also gave us an example of what "many" will be pleading in the Judgment.

Matt. 7: 22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that "work" iniquity.

And are we not warned over and over about this very thing?

2 Tim. 3: 13 But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived.

14 But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them; 15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for "instruction in righteousness": 17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all "good works".

2 Cor. 11: 12 But what I do, that I will do, that I may cut off occasion from them which desire occasion; that wherein they glory, they may be found even as we. 13 For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.

14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. 15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.

The Jesus "of the Bible" said to come to Him and SEEK "First" the Kingdom "of God" and "HIS" Righteousness.

I would "take heed" of listening to self-proclaimed "Christians", who promote that we should disagree with Jesus.

 

[Studyman]

That doesn't exactly answer my question. What is faith in his blood? Is it simply confidence that God will forgive based on seeing the blood?

So that's it? Just belief? That's all? You can lie, cheat, steal, rape, murder, pillage, and plunder, but as long as you have confidence that the blood provides a free path to heaven, you make it? The blood is a "get out of jail free card"? And the saint who spends her entire life in service of others without believing that story about the blood enters eternal torment?

Well, that is pretty much what the Pharisees believed as well. They could kill, steal, lie and transgress God's other commandments, and then bring a goat to the Levite Priest, spill its blood, and their sins were forgiven.

That these sacrificial "works of the law" were a "get out of jail free card".

I don't think that was God's intended purpose for the blood.

 

[doubtingmerle]

Are you genuinely curious about what people believe and how they resolve apparent contradictions??

yes.

 

[doubtingmerle]

Well, that is pretty much what the Pharisees believed as well. They could kill, steal, lie and transgress God's other commandments, and then bring a goat to the Levite Priest, spill its blood, and their sins were forgiven.

That these sacrificial "works of the law" were a "get out of jail free card".

I don't think that was God's intended purpose for the blood.

Ah, so it's not true that, "He that heareth my word and believeth on him that sent me hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation, but is passed from death unto life?" (John 5:24)

 

[Studyman]

Ah, so it's not true that, "He that heareth my word and believeth on him that sent me hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation, but is passed from death unto life?" (John 5:24)

I am glad to discuss my actual replies. So far you have asked questions but refuse to engage discuss or even acknowledge my answers.

If a man truly believes in the God who Sent His Son, their behavior will change from mocking and indifference, to respect and obedience.

This would be true of a son and his dad or a husband and his wife, or an employee and employer.

You can always tell if a man believes in someone, by their words and actions. As it is written;

"They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate."

So the Words of the Jesus of the Bible that you invoked, are 100% True in my view. Of course, if one really doesn't believe in this God, there would be no reverence or respect, and this person could mock God and His inspired Word or call Him Lord but refuse to abide by His Righteousness, with no fear at all.

The Pharisees "Said" they believed in God, the Christians in Matt. 7:21, "SAID" they believed in the Jesus "of the bible". "but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate".

You "say" you are curious about these things. I guess we will see.

 

[bradley5201]

wow that a great question and i been listening to this new podcast: the faithful exchange and really help me answer that question according to the bible

 

[doubtingmerle]

You can always tell if a man believes in someone, by their words and actions. As it is written;

Hundreds of clergy have been convicted of sexual crimes. Are you saying none of those people believed in Jesus?

Stop with the “Few Bad Apples” Rationalization When Excusing Clergy Misconduct

Six years ago, I posted the first story in the Black Collar Crime Series. Focused primarily on clergy sexual misconduct, the sheer level of reports…

brucegerencser.net

 

[Studyman]

Hundreds of clergy have been convicted of sexual crimes. Are you saying none of those people believed in Jesus?

If you would offer even the simplest of decency and common curtesy of actually addressing posts, and the Scriptures therein, you would see how the Jesus “of the Bible”, and God's Inspired Word addresses your questions.

I already posted where Jesus warns about "Many" who come in Christ's Name" but are really deceivers, but you completely ignored them. Why would a man, truly interested in understanding Scriptures, ignore them when they are posted?

Paul also teaches;

2 Cor. 11: 12 But what I do, that I will do, that I may cut off occasion from them which desire occasion; that wherein they glory, they may be found even as we.

13 For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.

Your example of pedophile's becoming Christian preachers would certainly fit here, Yes?

14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. 15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.

One tactic used by deceivers, in my experience, is to take One verse out of the Bible, and use it to promote their adopted philosophy or agenda. For instance, a man trying to discredit the Bible, or a man trying to promote that belief alone merits the gift of immortality, might separate the following Scripture from the rest of the Bible.

John 5: 24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

And then use, apart from the rest of the Scriptures, to promote or create their own religious philosophy, which of course, would vary from one individual to the next.

To me, this is childish foolishness. If a man wants to build something, and he has the parts, and the instructions, would he throw away the instructions, keeping only one sentence? Of course not, and if he did, we would know by his works that he really didn't want to build in the first place.

 

[returntosender]

Your response is not very Christian. Do you always expect a response? If he found in your post an answer wouldn't that be enough. Expecting credit for actions is not Christian either. If i get an answer i don't necessarily respond. Most don't expect accolades i think.

 

[doubtingmerle]

13 For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.

Your example of pedophile's becoming Christian preachers would certainly fit here, Yes?

Uh, no, my example was not one of pedophiles becoming Christian preachers. It is a simple fact that hundreds have preached from the pulpit for years, and have turned to sexual crimes. They were every bit as much of a believer as you are. But they broke a commandment.

What is your evidence that all these clergymen who committed crimes were always pedophiles?

The simple fact is that Christians do wrong, and sometimes even commit crimes. To write all these people off as false apostles seems inappropriate.

After all, even the Bible says, "If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us." (I John 1:8)

So no, it simply is not true that people that believe in Jesus always obey the commandments. Sometimes Christians disobey commandments. You must surely know that. To suggest that every person who identifies as a Christian who later breaks a commandment was never a Christian is ridiculous.

And if all Christians sometimes break a commandment, how can one claim that those others within the church that break commandments were never really Christians, while claiming that oneself is still a Christian in spite of breaking a commandment?

 

[doubtingmerle]

If a man truly believes in the God who Sent His Son, their behavior will change from mocking and indifference, to respect and obedience.

You seem to be saying that Christians do not have free will. For if a Christian truly was free to choose, then, by definition, he would be free to choose to disobey.