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T'was the night

BigToe

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The Christmas tree is taken from Pagan traditions, not because it is Christian. In fact, some Germanic tribes celebrated Yule with male sacrifices where they hung the bodies from a tree. Other cultures would make sacrifices near trees. But really, its now a Christmas tradition because when Europe was converted to Christianity in droves, many cultures didn't want to get rid of traditions so they simply adopted their old Pagan activities into their new Christian lives. If the Church didn't want a tradition to be kept, they got rid of it. So they obviously had no problem with the Pagan origins of the tradition. The first decorated trees are from late 1500s Germany and were decorated with foodstuffs.

Martin Luther is even said to have decorated a small tree, not to celebrate the birth of Jesus, but to be like the shining of the stars at night.

And the trees were once decorated the 24th and left up for the twelve days of Christmas and then taken down. To have them up before or after that time was considered bad luck. So traditions, even around major holidays, obviously change.
The mistletoe tradition comes from Norse, Celtic and Druid mythology.

And there are a multitude of Christmas songs that mention nothing about Jesus or Christianity.

But there are a multitude of traditions that are friendly for folks of all beliefs or none at all. So, how is it not a family friendly holiday for even athesits and other nonChristians to enjoy? The winter holidays were often the most largely celebrated holidays because the winter meant less agricultural work needed to be done.

The early church was opposed to celebrating birthdays with Easter being the biggest celebration (and if you think about it, that's the one that has the most significance on the whole religion anyway). December 25th was first mentioned as being Jesus's date of birth in 221 AD and when it was suggested, no mention of a huge celebration or feast to honor it was noted. It was going from the idea he was conceived on the same day he died on the cross, fiting with Jewish ideals of prophets living an integral number of years. And in fact many early church fathers said that sinners, not saints, celebrated birthdays.
 
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Lilandra

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I'm not sure that's true, and the timing of the aphelion varies on a 26,000 year cycle anyway (i.e changing by about 20 minutes every year).
I didn't mean the fartherest from the equatorial plane ever. I meant during the year.

A solstice is either of the two events of the year when the sun is at its greatest distance from the equatorial plane. The name is derived from Latin sol (sun) and sistere (to stand still), because at the solstice, the Sun stands still in declination, that is, it reaches a maximum or a minimum. The term solstice can also be used in a wider sense as the date (day) that such a passage happens. The solstices, together with the equinoxes, are related to the seasons. In some languages they are considered to start or separate the seasons; in others they are considered to be center points (in English, in the Northern hemisphere, for example, the period around the June solstice is known as midsummer, and Midsummer's Day is the 24 June — now two or three days after the solstice).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solstice
 
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Morcova

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Now here I disagree --- and very much so.

I cannot for the life of me (and I'm being serious) figure out why atheists go out of their way to do anything at Christmas time and Easter.

Especially if they have children.

(I know this sounds cruel --- but that's because it is.)

Christmas and Easter are both nice secular holidays. No reason for anybody to not celebrate them.
 
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Chalnoth

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I didn't mean the fartherest from the equatorial plane ever. I meant during the year.
But you said that it wasn't only the shortest day but also the furthest from the sun. I just found that unlikely given that the procession of the Earth's axis ensures that the solstice and the aphelion would only be within sync for about 70 years out of 26,000.
 
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TemperateSeaIsland

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My celebration starts at the 21th and ends on the 26th. I celibate the solstice and the fact that the days will soon be brighter give me great joy. For me Jesus has nothing to do with it but I can feel happy for the people who put him as the focus of the season.

MERRY CHRISTMAS AND MAY YOUR DAYS BECOME BRIGHTER WITH EVERY PASSING DAY.
 
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Elduran

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Christmas tree/mistletoe are both pagan...
Maybe AV should refrain from ever having a Christmas tree or mistletoe around him again, since he now has no reason to use them and it would be in spite of his beliefs, not because of them, to use pagan items as part of his religious celebration.

In the mean time of course, I'm going to keep celebrating christmas as a nice national holiday with presents, turkey, friends and family visiting, etc, and not worry too much about certain fundamentalists who see these as bad things somehow.
 
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c'mon sense

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What little our secular Christmas owes to Christianity, it owes to the Christian co-opting of the pagan solstice.

Which I am grateful for. Better than if you'd just killed them all.

Strip Christianity of its paganism and there's not much left: the Holy Trinity, the immortality of the soul, heaven and hell, Christmas, Easter and Sunday, they would all have to go. They were all given new significance in light of Jewish scripture and New Testament writings - the latter being an expression of mainly Greek, Jewish and Egyptian thought combined, with the Jewish significantly influenced by Persian elements during the exile.

So Christianity proceeded to the forceful conversion of pagans only as a state religion (the late Roman Empire) - except for the Jewish Christ, the Christian ideas and practices must've been very familiar to the pagans and were readily embraced. Christmas and Easter had been popular celebrations for centuries and all the saints are the gods of old dressed with new names - but nothing really changed.

My contention is that the translation of the Jewish scriptures into Greek in Alexandria under Ptolemy was a key event that would set the stage for the rise of Christianity. We might not have had a Jesus today without it, or, if we did, we'd call him something else, Dyonysus or Mitras or Tammuz or something else, but definitely not Jesus.
 
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Baggins

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No, the Christ-mas tree is not pagan. Show me where pagans called anything Christ-this or Christ-that.

Do you really believe that bringing evergreen trees and boughs into thehouse is a christian ceremony?

I would have thought you'd know more about your religions traditions than that

[WIKI] History

With likely origins in European pre-Christian pagan cultures, the Christmas tree has gained an extensive history and become a common sight during the winter season in numerous cultures.

[edit] Germanic tribes

Patron trees (for example, the Irminsul, Thor's Oak and the figurative Yggdrasil) held special significance for the ancient Germanic tribes, appearing throughout historic accounts as sacred symbols and objects. Among the earliest Germanic tribes the Yule tradition was celebrated by sacrificing male animals and slaves by suspending them on the branches of trees.[citation needed]
According to Adam of Bremen, in Scandinavia the pagan kings sacrificed nine males of each species at the sacred groves every ninth year.[1] According to one legend, Saint Boniface attempted to introduce the idea of trinity to the pagan tribes using the cone-shaped evergreen trees because of their triangular appearance.[2]

Dionysus in his Triumphant Return; behind the god, Victoria holds an evergreen.


The Christmas tree is often explained as a Christianization of the ancient pagan idea that the evergreen tree represents a celebration of the renewal of life.[citation needed] In actuality, when the Roman Empire was converted en masse to Christianity, many cultures did not give up their pagan ideals and traditions and so they were incorporated into the Christmas tradition. If the old church wanted to remove a tradition or religion, they did. For example the Serapem in the Library at Alexandria was destroyed because it had Pagan Idols.
[/WIKI]


Would you still put them up if we called them Yggdrasil, rather than christmas trees.

I don't know about you but it gives me a warm feeling thinking about AV haning pagan symbolss all over his house.

I wonder if he gives out that fmously christian symbol the egg at easter as well?
 
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Baggins

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It seems you are even out of step with the tiny minority who have similar views to yours AV .

From Wikipedia:

Some Christians, albeit a minority, feel that the practice of having "Christmas Trees" is prohibited by the Book of Jeremiah 10:1-5 which says,
For the customs of the people [are] vain: for [one] cutteth a tree out of the forest, the work of the hands of the workman, with the axe. They deck it with silver and with gold; they fasten it with nails and with hammers, that it move not. They are upright as the palm tree, but speak not: they must needs be borne, because they cannot go. Be not afraid of them; for they cannot do evil, neither also is it in them to do good. KJV.
Interpreting those verses as a ban on Christmas trees may be more common among individuals and Christian denominations that are part of the King-James-Only Movement
 
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rmwilliamsll

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Happy Festivus everyone!!:thumbsup:
from: http://wfrv.com/topstories/local_story_355155931.html
Dec 23, 2006 12:23 pm US/Central
Sale Of Festivus Poles Grow For 'Seinfeld' Holiday
...So does The Wagner Companies. The Milwaukee-based maker of hand-railing components is bringing back its line of Festivus poles for the holiday season. The company had plenty of metal rails on hand already and launched the product last year on a whim.

"We did it mainly as a lark. We never looked at it as a tremendous moneymaking scheme," said Tony Leto, the firm's executive vice president of sales and marketing. "But in many ways, Festivus is taking on a life of its own."

life imitating art
 
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Herman Hedning

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No, the Christ-mas tree is not pagan. Show me where pagans called anything Christ-this or Christ-that.
OK, so, in the USA the christmas tree is a christian tradition. Elsewhere we know what the roots are. In Sweden we have our yule spruce, which we know full well currently is a German tradition dating from the mid 1800:s. But having green plants of various kinds (spruce, pine, mistletoe, etc.) is a very old tradition dating well back to pagan times.
 
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