Travel in El Salvador is now "safer" than travel in Spain, France, UK, Costa Rica....according to the US Dept of State

[Trogdor the Burninator]

Off topic I know, but as someone who has lived and worked in Singapore, has family living in Singapore, and goes there at least once per year, oh boy....

But I wouldn't want to travel there for the same reason I wouldn't want to travel to Singapore.

Singapore is incredibly safe in terms of low risk of getting robbed, assaulted or murdered... on the flip side, I don't want to step foot in a country that will give me a $1000 fine and cane me because I chewed gum

Well, good news - it's not illegal to chew gum in Singapore. Illegal to litter with it - yes, but use it? I've chewed gum as I walked through immigration at Changi airport, nobody cared. So pack your Wrigleys and head on over.

As for littering in general, yes, it's a $1000 fine (similar to many jurisdictions in the US). You don't get caned for littering.

or accidentally let a cuss word slip in public.

And "cuss words in public"? You probably wouldn't hear any because everyone is swearing in Hokkien.

There's a litany of other draconian laws Singapore has that gives me 0 interest in spending any of my money over there.

Executing people for marijuana infractions,

Doesn't happen. Nobody gets executed there for smoking a joint.

fining people hefty amounts if they happen to forget to flush a public toilet (they go as far as installing urine sensors to help enforce that),

Most public toilets are automatic these days, and I've never seen a urine sensor there (not to mention how it would work given people urinating in toilets is kind of the point). I believe you're thinking of a few urine sensors installed in lifts, and I don't have any issue with people not peeing in my elevator.

getting arrested for PDA under their "Miscellaneous Decency Offenses" law, etc.

The teenagers on the MRT I caught a few weeks ago would seem to disprove that theory, though kids in Singapore are certainly less "touchy" than kids in the US.

(pretty sure they were still arresting people for "homosexual acts" as recently as 2-3 years ago)

It was officially decriminalised in 20222, you're right, though it was defacto decriminalised for around 15 years, and unenforced (AFAIK) since the 80s.

Obviously, I could behave myself while in another country, but the point is that I don't want to give them any of my money if those are the kinds of things they're doing.

At least they're not deporting people to El Salvador. Or shooting them after they call the police.
Also the Satay is awesome.

 

[ThatRobGuy]

It certainly could explain a big dip; I have no idea what those prisons look like. Obviously, I am no fan of lost civil rights and i DO hope innocent people get theri day in court (WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY sooner than this). But again...it must feel really wonderful to feel safe in your neighbourhood.

It sounds like some did... the AP article mentioned that of that 83,000 that were swept up in the raid and sent to prison, 5000-6000 were later release. (Indicating that they either at a 9% error rate in who they were capturing, or they perhaps swept up some who were perhaps former members and weren't able to get their ink removed)

Obviously, the guilty until proven innocent pattern is the inverse of the way people want things done in our society.

That's the collateral damage of high crime rates.

While the crimes themselves have direct victims. An unrelated victim is the cultural appreciation for due process diminishing.

I'm sure we'd all have our breaking point where we'd take an uncharacteristic stance on that if we saw enough "stuff". (which is why the El Salvadoran president's actions have actually made him pretty popular with the people down there)

If we woke up every morning and saw bodies face down in the street, or perhaps even saw the actual murder take place. And also saw that the police's hands were tied to limited evidence processing capabilities, and everyone kept their mouths shut out of fear (because the gang posts members up within eyeline of the police station so they can see who the snitches may be and "deal with them later")

That happening enough times? I can't guarantee that I wouldn't eventually say "to heck with due process, I want those SOB's taken out of my neighborhood and locked away forever, I don't care if they get a trial or not"


The approval rating polls are actually interesting. Among people not living in El Salvador, his approval ratings are 20-30% due to his methods. Within El Salvador, his approval rating hovers between 82-94% due to his results (depending on the poll).

 

[ThatRobGuy]

@Trogdor the Burninator, in reference to your post, so this information from these links isn't accurate?

Singapore International Travel Information

Singapore international travel information and Travel Advisory

travel.state.gov

Why is Singapore So Strict? 21 Rules to Know Before Visiting

Singapore is renowned for its stringent regulations to preserve its image as a pristine, secure, and organized metropolis. The diligent enforcement of these

yourcomforttrip.com

9 Lowkey Laws That Singaporeans Break Unknowingly On A Daily Basis

Think you're a law-abiding citizen? Think again. With these 9 Singapore laws, you might not even know you're breaking some of them.

thesmartlocal.com

If I'm going to go on vacation, I'd rather have a little more risk and a little less politeness in exchange for being able to figuratively let my hair down a bit.

I had a good time with some of the "locals" in an Irish countryside pub when I was over there despite a little bit of "hooliganry" happening.

 

[Trogdor the Burninator]

@Trogdor the Burninator, in reference to your post, so this information from these links isn't accurate?

Singapore International Travel Information

Singapore international travel information and Travel Advisory

travel.state.gov

Why is Singapore So Strict? 21 Rules to Know Before Visiting

Singapore is renowned for its stringent regulations to preserve its image as a pristine, secure, and organized metropolis. The diligent enforcement of these

yourcomforttrip.com

9 Lowkey Laws That Singaporeans Break Unknowingly On A Daily Basis

Think you're a law-abiding citizen? Think again. With these 9 Singapore laws, you might not even know you're breaking some of them.

thesmartlocal.com

The US government site is pretty much on the money, but doesn't contradict anything I've posted. The other two sites in most cases list crimes that are either (i) also crimes in other countries, (ii) are very unlikely to be enforced, or (iii) things that tourists would never do (are you really going to sit outside some family's house and leach off their private wi-fi to the point where they would notice?).

The main laws likely to be enforced that travellers would encounter are littering, jaywalking, and drug importation, and the first two would need you to be pretty blatant about it (e.g. littering in front of a cop). And these laws aren't unique to Singapore anyway - the only big difference is the seriousness which they ascribe to drug importation.

If I'm going to go on vacation, I'd rather have a little more risk and a little less politeness in exchange for being able to figuratively let my hair down a bit.
I had a good time with some of the "locals" in an Irish countryside pub when I was over there despite a little bit of "hooliganry" happening.

Plenty of people do the same thing in pubs in Singapore with no issues too. With the added benefit of being able to walk around at night, alone, and not be harassed, robbed or shot.

 

[wing2000]

Plenty of people do the same thing in pubs in Singapore with no issues too. With the added benefit of being able to walk around at night, alone, and not be harassed, robbed or shot.

...which is certainly not the case in El Salvador. The State Department's country advisory notes:

U.S. government employees working in El Salvador are allowed to travel throughout the country during daylight hours. However, due to the risks, U.S. government employees are prohibited from traveling between cities or departments at night.

There are exceptions. U.S. government employees are allowed to travel at all hours between San Salvador and:

• El Salvador’s international airport.
• La Libertad department.

U.S. government employees are prohibited from using public buses.

El Salvador International Travel Information

El Salvador international travel information and Travel Advisory

travel.state.gov

...but yea, it's a Level 1 country like Singapore <eyerolll>.

 

[Aryeh Jay]

...which is certainly not the case in El Salvador. The State Department's country advisory notes:

U.S. government employees working in El Salvador are allowed to travel throughout the country during daylight hours. However, due to the risks, U.S. government employees are prohibited from traveling between cities or departments at night.

There are exceptions. U.S. government employees are allowed to travel at all hours between San Salvador and:

• El Salvador’s international airport.
• La Libertad department.

U.S. government employees are prohibited from using public buses.

El Salvador International Travel Information

El Salvador international travel information and Travel Advisory

travel.state.gov

...but yea, it's a Level 1 country like Singapore <eyerolll>.

I could walk at night in Spain and ride the bus.

 

[wing2000]

I could walk at night in Spain and ride the bus.

Some with keen situational awareness could. That isn't the case for your typical American tourist.

 

[Aryeh Jay]

Some with keen situational awareness could. That isn't the case for your typical American tourist.

Mue Español es mue bueno quesso, mucho calente. Grande Español.

 

[rambot]

It sounds like some did... the AP article mentioned that of that 83,000 that were swept up in the raid and sent to prison, 5000-6000 were later release. (Indicating that they either at a 9% error rate in who they were capturing, or they perhaps swept up some who were perhaps former members and weren't able to get their ink removed)

Obviously, the guilty until proven innocent pattern is the inverse of the way people want things done in our society.

That's the collateral damage of high crime rates.

While the crimes themselves have direct victims. An unrelated victim is the cultural appreciation for due process diminishing.

I'm sure we'd all have our breaking point where we'd take an uncharacteristic stance on that if we saw enough "stuff". (which is why the El Salvadoran president's actions have actually made him pretty popular with the people down there)

If we woke up every morning and saw bodies face down in the street, or perhaps even saw the actual murder take place. And also saw that the police's hands were tied to limited evidence processing capabilities, and everyone kept their mouths shut out of fear (because the gang posts members up within eyeline of the police station so they can see who the snitches may be and "deal with them later")

That happening enough times? I can't guarantee that I wouldn't eventually say "to heck with due process, I want those SOB's taken out of my neighborhood and locked away forever, I don't care if they get a trial or not"


The approval rating polls are actually interesting. Among people not living in El Salvador, his approval ratings are 20-30% due to his methods. Within El Salvador, his approval rating hovers between 82-94% due to his results (depending on the poll).

Not sure if you read this, but I don't much care for this at ALL:
https://www.cnn.com/politics/live-news/trump-presidency-tarrifs-bukele-visit-04-14-25/index.html
Here is the money quote ferom Bukele

“I hope you’re not suggesting that I smuggle a terrorist into the United States,” Bukele said. “How can I smuggle a terrorist into the United States? Of course I’m not going to do it. The question is preposterous.”

THIS I have a problem with:
1) Your Supreme Court has ORDERED his return
2) Bukele is mischaraterizing the man completly (I wonder if slander can be charged? Doubtful I'm sure).
3) He hasn't been charged with a crime here OR in El Salvador.... And yet NOBODY in charge is trying to free him.

That is a pretty big condemnation on both of these administrations as it pretty clearly shows they are not REALLY interested primarily in safety OR justice

 

[ThatRobGuy]

THIS I have a problem with:
1) Our Supreme Court has ORDERED his return
2) Bukele is mischaraterizing the man completly (I wonder if slander can be charged? Doubtful I'm sure).
3) He hasn't been charged with a crime here OR in El Salvador.... And yet NOBODY in charge is trying to free him.

That is a pretty big condemnation on both of these administrations as it pretty clearly shows they are not REALLY interested primarily in safety OR justice

That ties in with what I was referring to before...where, if subjected to enough crime and criminal elements, people will actually vote for some draconian measures in the name of public safety once they feel the "proper channels" no longer sufficiently address the problems.

To put it in plain English, if they see gang members killing others left & right, and getting away with it due to inaction by the courts and/or an ineffective or corrupt policing institution... after a certain period of time, they'll gleefully vote for the guy who says "screw the courts, if you elect me, I'll send in the military and lock all of those guys away by next month and the murders will stop"

Not sure if you're familiar with David Frum (author/writer for The Atlantic). He had a quote from one of his articles from right after the 2016 election.
(I may not get it 100% word-for-word)

If liberals insist that only fascists punish criminals and enforce borders, then voters won't hesitate to hire fascists to do the job liberals refuse to do.

 

[rambot]

That ties in with what I was referring to before...where, if subjected to enough crime and criminal elements, people will actually vote for some draconian measures in the name of public safety once they feel the "proper channels" no longer sufficiently address the problems.

To put it in plain English, if they see gang members killing others left & right, and getting away with it due to inaction by the courts and/or an ineffective or corrupt policing institution... after a certain period of time, they'll gleefully vote for the guy who says "screw the courts, if you elect me, I'll send in the military and lock all of those guys away by next month and the murders will stop"

I understand what you're saying but it's not really relevant since this guy a) wasn't in their country b) didn't get charged with, investigated with or in any way connected to any crimes c) the body in charge of his freedom adjudicated his release and Bukele still labelled him a terorrist.

So no...not really relevant.

Not sure if you're familiar with David Frum (author/writer for The Atlantic). He had a quote from one of his articles from right after the 2016 election.
(I may not get it 100% word-for-word)

If liberals insist that only fascists punish criminals and enforce borders, then voters won't hesitate to hire fascists to do the job liberals refuse to do.

That strawman is big enough to take care of the crows through the lower Midwest.

 

[ThatRobGuy]

I understand what you're saying but it's not really relevant since this guy a) wasn't in their country b) didn't get charged with, investigated with or in any way connected to any crimes c) the body in charge of his freedom adjudicated his release and Bukele still labelled him a terorrist.

So no...not really relevant.

It is relevant because to suggest that Bukele "isn't actually interested in safety" isn't accurate.

In fact, I'd suggest that he's so hyper-focused on safety, that he's willing to cross certain lines that shouldn't be crossed in the name of upholding certain types of physical safety.

That strawman is big enough to take care of the crows through the lower Midwest.

I'm not answering the question of whether or not what they did was above board, clearly it wasn't, I'm speaking about the mindset that would cause people to vote for those types of leaders in the first place. (and be willing to overlook certainly liberty infractions afterwards) in the name of "safety".


In the eyes of both the Trump voters and Bukele voters, the respective opposing parties were neglecting to address certain things they wanted to address.