Thief Verses Disprove Rapture

[Douggg]

These passage tells us of the martyrs who are “under the altar,” under Christ’s protection. These Christians did not arrive in heaven in a rapture, they came to heaven by martyrdom. You can’t have it both ways.

I agree that them in the fifth seal did not arrive in heaven by the rapture. It is their souls that are under the altar, i.e. their souls went to heaven as each one was martyred. They have some sort of spiritual body, not a redeemed body. Their redeemed body will happen in Revelation 20:4-6.

The great multitude in Revelation 7 in heaven also are Christians who died during the great tribulation. It does not indicate how they died. But they are not raptured saints either. Like the martyred great tribulation saints of the fifth seal, their souls will have some sort of spiritual body.

Different from any of those in the fifth seal and those of the great multitude (both coming out of the great tribulation) , the timing of the rapture/resurrection event will be before the great tribulation begins. The rapture/resurrection event results in eternal everlasting redeemed bodies for them in Christ who take part in it.

Those raptured/resurrected saints in their redeemed bodies will accompany Jesus in Revelation 19.

 

[Dale]

I agree that them in the fifth seal did not arrive in heaven by the rapture. It is their souls that are under the altar, i.e. their souls went to heaven as each one was martyred. They have some sort of spiritual body, not a redeemed body. Their redeemed body will happen in Revelation 20:4-6.

The great multitude in Revelation 7 in heaven also are Christians who died during the great tribulation. It does not indicate how they died. But they are not raptured saints either. Like the martyred great tribulation saints of the fifth seal, their souls will have some sort of spiritual body.

Different from any of those in the fifth seal and those of the great multitude (both coming out of the great tribulation) , the timing of the rapture/resurrection event will be before the great tribulation begins. The rapture/resurrection event results in eternal everlasting redeemed bodies for them in Christ who take part in it.

Those raptured/resurrected saints in their redeemed bodies will accompany Jesus in Revelation 19.

Doug: “They have some sort of spiritual body, not a redeemed body. Their redeemed body will happen in Revelation 20:4-6.”

Doug: “Like the martyred great tribulation saints of the fifth seal, their souls will have some sort of spiritual body.”

Doug: “The rapture/resurrection event results in eternal everlasting redeemed bodies for them in Christ who take part in it.”

Doug: “Those raptured/resurrected saints in their redeemed bodies will accompany Jesus in Revelation 19.”

If there is any such thing as a redeemed body versus a spiritual body, you don’t understand this and no mortal does.

I have noticed that Dispensationalists believe that Jesus had some special type of body when He after the resurrection. I don’t believe this, I think His body was the same as it was before.

 

[timothyu]

I have noticed that Dispensationalists believe that Jesus had some special type of body when He after the resurrection. I don’t believe this, I think His body was the same as it was before.

Entirely possible in this world we comprehend but of no purpose in any other which will replace it. It is no more rather than replenished

 

[Dan Perez]

The like a thief verses don't disprove the Rapture, but the like a thief phrase is used to emphasize the surprise happening of different events.

1. the Rapture event.
2. the beginning of the day of the Lord.
3. the appearance of the Son of Man in heaven (Revelation 16:15) that causes the reaction for the kings of the earth to gather their armies at Armageddon to prepare to make war on Jesus and His armies of heaven.

And here is another view by the Apostle , for the Gentiles and are to

# 1 , First , in the Greek , there is NO such a word called RAPTURE and before you disagree , check VINE.S Greek

dictionary or see STRONGS CONCORDANCE .

Christs coming is only mentioned for the Body of Christ , in2 Thess 2 :1 where you see the word COMING // PAROUSA

meaning , even our gathering togethering unto Him .

# 2 And in Thess 2:: 3 No one should thoroughly deceive you in NOT // is a DISJUNCATIVE PARTICLE NEGATIVE , do not

ever let one way BECAUSE , EXCEPT the DEPARTURE should come FIRST // PROTOS , and the man of sin

should be reveled

the son of destruction , .

# 3 And verse 2 is why I am PRE- MILL , and a DISPENSAIONALIST .

# 4 And there is another verse in 1 THESS 4:17 CAUGHT UP // HARPAZO is in the FUTURE TENSE , PASSIVE VOICE

in the PLURAL .

And there is one more in Gal 1:4 Greek word RESCUE //EXAIREO !! Any other RESURRECTIONS are for Israel !!

dan p

 

[Johan2222]

If anything disproved the rapture it would give cause for many to say that God was the author of confusion, for the rapture is revealed throughout scripture, including in the law, several times, and which Paul certainly alluded to here;

Colossians 2:14-17 KJV
Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross; [15] And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it. [16] Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: [17] Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.

The handwriting of ordinances that was against us and which was contrary to us is the law which deals with meat and drink and holy days and new moons and Sabbath days and Paul says the law is prophetic; Which are a shadow of things to come;

Here is one of the several foreshadowing prophecies of the rapture revealed in the law in chapter eight of Genesis.

The number 8 in scripture represents (amongst other things) “new beginnings” and the prophecy of Christ’s first advent is revealed in the first occurrence of double eight in Genesis, Noah being man’s first new beginning, (Genesis 8.1) and Christ being the second.

Genesis 8:8

[8] Also he sent forth a dove from him, to see if the waters were abated from off the face of the ground; [9] But the dove found no rest for the sole of her foot, and she returned unto him into the ark, for the waters were on the face of the whole earth: then he put forth his hand, and took her, and pulled her in unto him into the ark.

The first sending of the dove (the symbol of the Holy Spirit which revealed Christ) which is sent forth from the ark in Genesis 8.8, she finds no rest for the sole of her foot. SINGULAR.

The first time Christ is sent forth from the ark of heaven He finds no rest for the sole of ONE foot.

One of the symptoms of a victim of crucifixion was the heel of the lower foot (which stood directly on the nail) would turn black from the extreme bruising. Genesis 3.15.

The second time the dove is sent forth she returns to the ark with an olive leaf in her mouth.

The second time Christ is sent forth from heaven He returns to the ark of heaven with the church (His bride). (1 Thessalonians 4.16) The olive tree in scripture is a symbol of the church.

Only one leaf of the tree is carried back to the ark.

Matthew 7:14 NKJV
Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it.

The third time the dove is sent forth from the ark she does not return to Noah.

The third time Christ is sent forth from the ark of heaven he does not return to God but remains and rules on earth for a thousand years.

Isaiah 46:10 KJV
Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:

The rapture is a certainty, revealed in the law many times in many different scriptures. God is not the author of confusion as you believe.

 

[Johan2222]

Let me give you another reason why a rapture separate from the Second Coming cannot be reconciled with the Bible. According to Dispensationalists/Rapturists, Jesus takes His followers, Christians, to heaven while the Antichrist wreaks havoc on earth. Years later, Jesus returns to judge the world. Is this the right order of events?

Take a look at the Parable of the Wheat and Tares, or as later translations call it, the Parable of the Wheat and Weeds.

Jesus told them another parable: “The kingdom of heaven is
like a man who sowed good seed in his field.
But while everyone was sleeping, his enemy came and sowed
weeds among the wheat, and went away.
When the wheat sprouted and formed ears, then the weeds
also appeared.
“The owner’s servants came to him and said, `Sir, didn’t you
sow good seed in your field? Where then did the weeds come
from?’
“`An enemy did this,’ he replied. “The servants asked him,
`Do you want us to go and pull them up?’
“`No,’ he answered, `because while you are pulling the
weeds, you may root up the wheat with them.
Let both grow together until the harvest. At that time I will
tell the harvesters: First collect the weeds and tie them in
bundles to be burned; then gather the wheat and bring it into
my barn.’“
Matthew 13:24-30 NIV

In the Parable of the Wheat and Weeds, those who are lost are gathered, tied and burned first. After that has been done, God’s angels gather the wheat, which represents the saved, the Christians. Dispensationalists have the order of events backwards.

Read it again carefully and see if you can discern your error.

First collect the weeds and tie them in
bundles to be burned; then gather the wheat and bring it into
my barn.’“

 

[Dale]

If anything disproved the rapture it would give cause for many to say that God was the author of confusion, for the rapture is revealed throughout scripture, including in the law, several times, and which Paul certainly alluded to here;

Colossians 2:14-17 KJV
Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross; [15] And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it. [16] Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: [17] Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.

The handwriting of ordinances that was against us and which was contrary to us is the law which deals with meat and drink and holy days and new moons and Sabbath days and Paul says the law is prophetic; Which are a shadow of things to come;

Here is one of the several foreshadowing prophecies of the rapture revealed in the law in chapter eight of Genesis.

The number 8 in scripture represents (amongst other things) “new beginnings” and the prophecy of Christ’s first advent is revealed in the first occurrence of double eight in Genesis, Noah being man’s first new beginning, (Genesis 8.1) and Christ being the second.

Genesis 8:8

[8] Also he sent forth a dove from him, to see if the waters were abated from off the face of the ground; [9] But the dove found no rest for the sole of her foot, and she returned unto him into the ark, for the waters were on the face of the whole earth: then he put forth his hand, and took her, and pulled her in unto him into the ark.

The first sending of the dove (the symbol of the Holy Spirit which revealed Christ) which is sent forth from the ark in Genesis 8.8, she finds no rest for the sole of her foot. SINGULAR.

The first time Christ is sent forth from the ark of heaven He finds no rest for the sole of ONE foot.

One of the symptoms of a victim of crucifixion was the heel of the lower foot (which stood directly on the nail) would turn black from the extreme bruising. Genesis 3.15.

The second time the dove is sent forth she returns to the ark with an olive leaf in her mouth.

The second time Christ is sent forth from heaven He returns to the ark of heaven with the church (His bride). (1 Thessalonians 4.16) The olive tree in scripture is a symbol of the church.

Only one leaf of the tree is carried back to the ark.

Matthew 7:14 NKJV
Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it.

The third time the dove is sent forth from the ark she does not return to Noah.

The third time Christ is sent forth from the ark of heaven he does not return to God but remains and rules on earth for a thousand years.

Isaiah 46:10 KJV
Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:

The rapture is a certainty, revealed in the law many times in many different scriptures. God is not the author of confusion as you believe.

Read it again carefully and see if you can discern your error.

First collect the weeds and tie them in
bundles to be burned; then gather the wheat and bring it into
my barn.’“

Johan, I don’t see how you reach your conclusions on Rapture. Take a look at this passage in Isaiah.

But your dead will live; their bodies will rise. You who dwell in the dust, wake up and shout for joy. Your dew is like the dew of the morning; the earth will give birth to her dead.

Go, my people, enter your rooms and shut the doors behind you; hide yourselves for a little while until his wrath has passed by. See, the LORD is coming out of his dwelling to punish the people of the earth for their sins. The earth will disclose the blood shed upon her; she will conceal her slain no longer.
Isaiah 26:19-21 NIV

The dead rise and shout for joy? Isaiah is clearly talking about the end times and final judgment, what Christians would call the Second Coming. The same passage tells us about “wrath” and Divine punishment. Does the prophet say that God will take His people off the earth for their safety while His wrath descends onto the earth? NO. Instead, God’s people are told to “hide yourselves” for a limited time.

 

[Dale]

If anything disproved the rapture it would give cause for many to say that God was the author of confusion, for the rapture is revealed throughout scripture, including in the law, several times, and which Paul certainly alluded to here;

Colossians 2:14-17 KJV
Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross; [15] And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it. [16] Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: [17] Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.

The handwriting of ordinances that was against us and which was contrary to us is the law which deals with meat and drink and holy days and new moons and Sabbath days and Paul says the law is prophetic; Which are a shadow of things to come;

Here is one of the several foreshadowing prophecies of the rapture revealed in the law in chapter eight of Genesis.

The number 8 in scripture represents (amongst other things) “new beginnings” and the prophecy of Christ’s first advent is revealed in the first occurrence of double eight in Genesis, Noah being man’s first new beginning, (Genesis 8.1) and Christ being the second.

Genesis 8:8

[8] Also he sent forth a dove from him, to see if the waters were abated from off the face of the ground; [9] But the dove found no rest for the sole of her foot, and she returned unto him into the ark, for the waters were on the face of the whole earth: then he put forth his hand, and took her, and pulled her in unto him into the ark.

The first sending of the dove (the symbol of the Holy Spirit which revealed Christ) which is sent forth from the ark in Genesis 8.8, she finds no rest for the sole of her foot. SINGULAR.

The first time Christ is sent forth from the ark of heaven He finds no rest for the sole of ONE foot.

One of the symptoms of a victim of crucifixion was the heel of the lower foot (which stood directly on the nail) would turn black from the extreme bruising. Genesis 3.15.

The second time the dove is sent forth she returns to the ark with an olive leaf in her mouth.

The second time Christ is sent forth from heaven He returns to the ark of heaven with the church (His bride). (1 Thessalonians 4.16) The olive tree in scripture is a symbol of the church.

Only one leaf of the tree is carried back to the ark.

Matthew 7:14 NKJV
Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it.

The third time the dove is sent forth from the ark she does not return to Noah.

The third time Christ is sent forth from the ark of heaven he does not return to God but remains and rules on earth for a thousand years.

Isaiah 46:10 KJV
Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:

The rapture is a certainty, revealed in the law many times in many different scriptures. God is not the author of confusion as you believe.

Read it again carefully and see if you can discern your error.

First collect the weeds and tie them in
bundles to be burned; then gather the wheat and bring it into
my barn.’“

Here is another passage from an OT prophet that tells us how God protects His people from Divine judgment. In Ezekiel 8,9 and 10, Ezekiel receives a vision from God, or at least a very high angel.

Then I heard him call out in a loud voice, “Bring the guards of the city here, each with a weapon in his hand.”
And I saw six men coming from the direction of the upper gate, which faces north, each with a deadly weapon in his hand. With them was a man clothed in linen who had a writing kit at his side. They came in and stood beside the bronze altar.
Now the glory of the God of Israel went up from above the cherubim, where it had been, and moved to the threshold of the temple. Then the LORD called to the man clothed in linen who had the writing kit at his side
and said to him, “Go throughout the city of Jerusalem and put a mark on the foreheads of those who grieve and lament over all the detestable things that are done in it.”
As I listened, he said to the others, “Follow him through the city and kill, without showing pity or compassion.
Slaughter old men, young men and maidens, women and children, but do not touch anyone who has the mark. Begin at my sanctuary.” So they began with the elders who were in front of the temple.
Ezekiel 9:1-6 NIV

God summons an angel who in some way knows who is on God’s side and who is not. This discerning angel is ordered to mark the foreheads of the righteous so that they will be spared God’s wrath. Other angels follow, angels of death and destruction. This tells us that God protects His people where they are, not by taking them off the earth.

 

[BelieveItOarKnot]

From a group study many years ago.

It's probably poor methodology to focus on just one word set, such as "like" a thief. Though this alone can be elaborated on, at length.

In Mark 13:26 He comes with CLOUDS.

In Matthew 24:27 He comes as LIGHTNING.

In Revelation 16:15 He comes as a THIEF.

In Matthew 25:6 He comes as the BRIDEGROOM.

In Revelation 22:16 and 2:28 He comes as the MORNING STAR.

In Malachi 4:2 He comes as the SUN OF RIGHTEOUSNESS ARISING.

In Philippians 3:20-21 He comes in RESURRECTION POWER.

In 2 Thessalonians 1:7-8 He comes in FLAMING FIRE.

In Malachi 3:1-3 He comes to His priesthood company as REFINER'S FIRE and FULLER'S SOAP.

In 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 He comes IN THE AIR.

In Hosea 6:3 and James 5:7-8 He comes as the RAIN.

In Revelation 19:11 & 14 He comes on a WHITE HORSE.

In Matthew 25:31-34 He comes as KING.

In 1 Peter 5:4 He comes as the CHIEF SHEPHERD.

In Matthew 16:27 He comes WITH HIS ANGELS.

In Jude 14 He comes WITH HIS SAINTS.

In John 14:18 He comes TO HIS SAINTS.

In 2 Thessalonians 1:10 He comes IN HIS SAINTS.

In Jude 14 & 15 He comes in JUDGMENT.

In Revelation 22:12 He comes WITH REWARDS.

In 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 He comes with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, with the trump of God.

He comes to the Mount of Olives;

He comes to His temple;

He comes in glory;

He comes as Lord;

He comes in His Kingdom;

He comes as seasons of refreshing, etc., etc., etc.

Comprehensive enough for now

I'll say this about Jesus, like a thief. Who is Jesus stealing from? THE DEVIL, the owner of people in the flesh, the blinder of all who can not see or perceive Him. These will all be swiped right out from under the devil's nose and the devil(s) don't know the day, hour, or when/how it will happen. The CAPTIVES will be set free, ALL captives.

IT will happen. And in an odd way it happens for all of us individually, when we depart our flesh, Romans 6:7

Get the "other parties" in the pictures of these matters and the "terms and conditions" will start to gel for your eyes only. The devils will never get it, or understand it. Nor do they want to.

So even as you read, there will always be partial sight and perpetual resistance. Mark 4:15

The "end time" means THE ENDING FOR THEM. This is the Good News for US, and the bad news for THEM

 

[BelieveItOarKnot]

Read it again carefully and see if you can discern your error.

First collect the weeds and tie them in
bundles to be burned; then gather the wheat and bring it into
my barn.’“

Whatever you BIND on earth shall be BOUND in heaven, Matt. 18:18

It's an interesting footnote to "hear" Joseph binding his brother Simeon (hearing) before letting the other brothers loose to return and get the youngest, Benjamin.

They were all bound in Egypt, under Pharaoh, spiritually speaking. And survived by accepting that fate.

Pharaoh held all the food, dontchaknow?

 

[Dale]

From a group study many years ago.

It's probably poor methodology to focus on just one word set, such as "like" a thief. Though this alone can be elaborated on, at length.

In Mark 13:26 He comes with CLOUDS.

In Matthew 24:27 He comes as LIGHTNING.

In Revelation 16:15 He comes as a THIEF.

In Matthew 25:6 He comes as the BRIDEGROOM.

In Revelation 22:16 and 2:28 He comes as the MORNING STAR.

In Malachi 4:2 He comes as the SUN OF RIGHTEOUSNESS ARISING.

In Philippians 3:20-21 He comes in RESURRECTION POWER.

In 2 Thessalonians 1:7-8 He comes in FLAMING FIRE.

In Malachi 3:1-3 He comes to His priesthood company as REFINER'S FIRE and FULLER'S SOAP.

In 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 He comes IN THE AIR.

In Hosea 6:3 and James 5:7-8 He comes as the RAIN.

In Revelation 19:11 & 14 He comes on a WHITE HORSE.

In Matthew 25:31-34 He comes as KING.

In 1 Peter 5:4 He comes as the CHIEF SHEPHERD.

In Matthew 16:27 He comes WITH HIS ANGELS.

In Jude 14 He comes WITH HIS SAINTS.

In John 14:18 He comes TO HIS SAINTS.

In 2 Thessalonians 1:10 He comes IN HIS SAINTS.

In Jude 14 & 15 He comes in JUDGMENT.

In Revelation 22:12 He comes WITH REWARDS.

In 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 He comes with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, with the trump of God.

He comes to the Mount of Olives;

He comes to His temple;

He comes in glory;

He comes as Lord;

He comes in His Kingdom;

He comes as seasons of refreshing, etc., etc., etc.

Comprehensive enough for now

I'll say this about Jesus, like a thief. Who is Jesus stealing from? THE DEVIL, the owner of people in the flesh, the blinder of all who can not see or perceive Him. These will all be swiped right out from under the devil's nose and the devil(s) don't know the day, hour, or when/how it will happen. The CAPTIVES will be set free, ALL captives.

IT will happen. And in an odd way it happens for all of us individually, when we depart our flesh, Romans 6:7

Get the "other parties" in the pictures of these matters and the "terms and conditions" will start to gel for your eyes only. The devils will never get it, or understand it. Nor do they want to.

So even as you read, there will always be partial sight and perpetual resistance. Mark 4:15

The "end time" means THE ENDING FOR THEM. This is the Good News for US, and the bad news for THEM

BelieveIt: << I'll say this about Jesus, like a thief. Who is Jesus stealing from? THE DEVIL, the owner of people in the flesh, the blinder of all who can not see or perceive Him. These will all be swiped right out from under the devil's nose and the devil(s) don't know the day, hour, or when/how it will happen. >>

Jesus isn’t stealing from anyone. The meaning of the word "thief" is that the Second Coming of Jesus Christ will be UNEXPECTED. He will come when few expect Him.

 

[BelieveItOarKnot]

Jesus isn’t stealing from anyone. The meaning of the word "thief" is

The meaning of the word thief is, as it states from Strong's:

Embezzeler
Pilferer

From the word "klepto" meaning to steal, to commit a theft, to take away by stealth

1 Thes. 5:
2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

The "they/them" in question is as prior noted

 

[Marilyn C]

There are several verses in the New Testament where Jesus is compared to a thief in that He will come, return from Heaven, at an unexpected time. Jesus speaks of himself this way in Matthew and Luke, and Paul and Peter make the same point in the Epistles.

Hi Dale,

Actually, when the Lord, the Head of His Body is speaking to us by His Holy Spirit through the apostle Paul He said -

`But you brethren are NOT in darkness that this Day should overtake you as a thief. `(1 Thess. 5: 4)

 

[Neckelehamiah]

The Holy Spirit will never leave you. He will just present himself in a way unseen before.

 

[Dale]

The meaning of the word thief is, as it states from Strong's:

Embezzeler
Pilferer

From the word "klepto" meaning to steal, to commit a theft, to take away by stealth

1 Thes. 5:
2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

The "they/them" in question is as prior noted

One of the thief verses I quoted in post #2:

Now, brothers, about times and dates we do not need to
write to you,
for you know very well that the day of the Lord will come
like a thief in the night.
While people are saying, “Peace and safety”, destruction will
come on them suddenly, as labour pains on a pregnant
woman, and they will not escape.
But you, brothers, are not in darkness so that this day should
surprise you like a thief.
I Thessalonians 5:1-4 NIV

Let’s take a look at what the great historical commentators thought about this passage, well before the 20th century.

From Matthew Henry (1662-1714) commentary on I Thessalonians 5:1-4 NIV

<< I. The apostle tells the Thessalonians it was needless or useless to enquire about the particular time of Christ's coming: Of the times and seasons you need not that I write unto you, v. 1. The thing is certain that Christ will come, and there is a certain time appointed for his coming; but there was no need that the apostle should write about this, and therefore he had no revelation given him; nor should they or we enquire into this secret, which the Father has reserved in his own power. Of that day and hour knoweth no man. Christ himself did not reveal this while upon earth; it was not in his commission as the great prophet of the church: nor did he reveal this to his apostles; there was no need of this. There are times and seasons for us to do our work in: these it is our duty and interest to know and observe; but the time and season when we must give up our account we know not, nor is it needful that we should know them. Note, There are many things which our vain curiosity desires to know which there is no necessity at all of our knowing, nor would our knowledge of them do us good.

II. He tells them that the coming of Christ would be sudden, and a great surprise to most men, v. 2. And this is what they knew perfectly, or might know, because our Lord himself had so said: In such an hour as you think not, the Son of man cometh, Mt. 24:44. So Mk. 13:35, 36, Watch you therefore, for you know not when the master of the house cometh; lest, coming suddenly, he find you sleeping. And no doubt the apostle had told them, as of the coming of Christ, so also of his coming suddenly, which is the meaning of his coming as a thief in the night, Rev. 16:15. As the thief usually cometh in the dead time of the night, when he is least expected, such a surprise will the day of the Lord be; so sudden and surprising will be his appearance. The knowledge of this will be more useful than to know the exact time, because this should awaken us to stand upon our watch, that we may be ready whenever he cometh. >>

Matthew Henry is perfectly clear that this passage refers to the Second Coming of Christ, and not to any event that could precede it. He is also clear that the word “thief” indicates that the Coming of Christ will be “sudden” and “surprising” to many people.

Source
https://www.christianity.com/bible/commentary/matthew-henry-complete/1-thessalonians/5

 

[timothyu]

indicates that the Coming of Christ will be “sudden” and “surprising” to many people.

Just like the repentance of the thief on the cross.

 

[keras]

The general belief has the glorious Return as an unexpected and surprising event. This belief simply doesn't match with the detailed Prophesies just prior to and at the Return.
We are told that the 'beast', will have authority over the word for 42 months, or 1260 days. so; to simply count the days from the desecration of the Temple, 2 Thess 2:4, will give us the exact day Jesus will Return. No surprise about that.

The many mentions of 3 1/2 years, 42 months and 1260 days, all refer to the second half of the final 7 years. The first half is only mentioned in Daniel 9:27...and with that first half spent...... It will be a peaceful time, with no great consequences.

If the Prophesies which mention the Lord coming unexpectedly are carefully studied, in their context and wording, then it should be understood they all refer to the great Day of the Lords fiery wrath; the forthcoming Sixth Seal world changer. Isaiah 29:5-6, Matthew 24:36-44
Like I say- at least 10 years before the Return.

 

[Fisherking]

There are several verses in the New Testament where Jesus is compared to a thief in that He will come, return from Heaven, at an unexpected time. Jesus speaks of himself this way in Matthew and Luke, and Paul and Peter make the same point in the Epistles. There are two more thief verses in Revelation. Why does this matter?

There is no possibility that these thief verses are a warning that some will be “left behind” at a rapture separate from the Second Coming. The last thief verse is too close to the coming of Christ at the end of Revelation. The last thief verse is Revelation 16:15 and Christ comes as the rider on a white horse in Revelation 19:11.

I will explain this unto you whether you accept it or not is a different matter. Jesus can only "surprise" like a late night thief, via a pre trib rapture, the 2nd coming will be a known time, ala 1260 days after the Beast Conquers Israel an THE MANY (Mediterranean Sea Coast Nations not in Europe)

So, why does Rev. 16, just before Vial #7's second coming have a quote in Vial #6 about Jesus coming like a thief ?(by surprise) ? For the same reason if you read Zech. 13, verses 1-5 are END TIME PROPHESY, it tells h0w Israel will be cleansed by a fountain. Verse 8-9 tells us how 1/3 of Israel will repent whilst 2/3 will refuse to do so and will perish/die. BUT.....in verses 6-7 we see a Prophesy about Jesus being betrayed by his own house of friends, what are these wounds? I was wounded in the house of my friends. then in vs. 7 it speaks about the Shepard's sheep scattering.

SEE IT? We have one prophesy which is an end time prophesy overall, and says in that end time Israel will be cleansed by a FOUNTAIN, then in verse 6 it drops a hint about the Messiah, so verses 6-7 are about Jesus 2000 years or so before the soon to come end time prophesy.

Guess what, people read Zech. 13 and because it has 2 verses about Jesus in it they get confused and say this was a prophesy ONLY ABOUT Jesus, but of course they are in error. Likewise, in Rev. 16 via the 6th Vial God is pretty much saying "I told you so didn't i?" So, when he announces the 6th Vial which brings deception to the masses, to send they all toward Armageddon to fight the God they have been hiding from for over three years in caves as the 6th Seal says (which is not areal event, but just points towards the Trumps which is God's ONLY Wrath, the 7 Trumps complete God's Wrath in full. So, as he announced the 6th Vial, God knows they are coming to try and defeat Him, like fools, s just before He defeats them at the 7th Vial via Jesus, He reminds us the readers of the bible that he had forewarned them this day would come. So, in a way God is mocking their UNBELIEF. He told them one day he was going tom send Jesus back like a thief, but they heeded not those warning, saying where is the promise of his coming etc. and thus when Jesus showed up pre 70th week (pre trib), that is when their fates were set in stone, they would either repent and probably become Martyrs, or they would g through God's full wrath. Once they missed the Wedding call the DOOR WAS SHUT.............No one else can enter, no one from the 70th week can enter the wedding. What you are doing is you see a verse (like in Zech. 13) and you do not reason out all the angles. you just jumped to a conclusion that fits your (erroneous in this case) understandings.

By the way, Rev. 19:11, Rev. 16:19 are the exact same event, the 2nd coming, as is Rev. 14 all except fir verse 14 which is the worlds very first Cinematic flashback, we see Jesus from upon a cloud Harvesting the Church in the Pre Trib. Rapture.

 

[BelieveItOarKnot]

Let’s take a look at what the great historical commentators thought about this passage, well before the 20th century.

IF any commentator does not factor in our adversary, the enemy of God in Christ, the tempter-the devil, then they will be missing the most obvious but physically unseen component. It's the most common mistake.

Just a footnote for future reference.

IF any reader doesn't see that even those who pierced him will wail at his return for example, in Rev. 1:7 they will be left with 2 choices (or the very false full preterist view). Either Jesus already returned when those who pierced Him were still alive. Obviously they are not alive today

or

The enemies, the devil and his messengers are again in view, as they should rightfully be in anyone's dissections of these matters. When Jesus said "Father forgive them for they know not what they do" speaking of the men who did it, He spoke of the spiritual blindness and captivity of those men by the enemy(s) per Mark 4:15, Acts 26:18, 2 Cor. 4:4, Eph. 2:2, 1 John 3:8, and many many others.

Rev. 1:
7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

Clouds, thief, lightning, etc etc. These various methods can only be harmonized when we bring the unseen spiritual realms into our pictures of understanding. "We wrestle not against flesh and blood..."

 

[Jermayn]

There are several verses in the New Testament where Jesus is compared to a thief in that He will come, return from Heaven, at an unexpected time. Jesus speaks of himself this way in Matthew and Luke, and Paul and Peter make the same point in the Epistles. There are two more thief verses in Revelation. Why does this matter?

There is no possibility that these thief verses are a warning that some will be “left behind” at a rapture separate from the Second Coming. The last thief verse is too close to the coming of Christ at the end of Revelation. The last thief verse is Revelation 16:15 and Christ comes as the rider on a white horse in Revelation 19:11.

Revelation 16:15 comes just before the Seventh Bowl is poured out. To put this in perspective, in Revelation we have the Seven Seals, the Seven Trumpets and then the Seven Bowls. Six Seals are opened in Chapter 6 and the Seventh Seal unleashes the Seven Trumpets. The Seven Trumpets sound in Chapters Eight to Eleven. After Revelation 16:15, the Seventh Bowl is poured out two verses later in verse 17. The Beast and the False Prophet arise in Chapter 13.

The whole idea of the Rapture is that the Second Coming is split into two parts, a secret flyover, and the public Second Coming. Jesus would take His followers out of this world in the secret flyover to spare them the reign of the Beast. If that was going to happen it would have to happen long before Revelation 16:15.

The thief verses are a series of warnings that the return of Christ from Heaven will be unexpected, many will be surprised. Dispensationalists tell me that after the Rapture the earth will be in a new dispensation. There will be no church and no Holy Spirit. I guess that means that the Holy Spirit will not be active. Yet in Revelation 16:15 we see the same warning that Jesus gave in Matthew 24, the apocalyptic chapter in Matthew, that Jesus will come as a thief. This warning must be conveyed to the church by the Holy Spirit.

See Post #2 for a list of thief verses.

I think there's a chance a lot of people may fall for the Anti-Christs lies because they are waiting around for the rapture.