Thief Verses Disprove Rapture

[BelieveItOarKnot]

My statement stands regardless of whether the Anti-Christ is a single government/religious figure or a government/group of people as a whole.

People are not our enemy's

 

[Dale]

I read your reply and see you dodged all my points, rather sad when defeated on a point you take cover, I do not get that, just debate the point, that is how we come to the truth by sword fighting so to speak, via the word of the sword, that quickens us. NOTICE: I meet every point head on because I have answers brother.


You do not understand this verse as per the timing my friend, will you listen or dodge again? For starters you conflate the 2nd coming here with the Rapture in verses 36-51 or so. And you seemingly think verse 29 (I assume) proves we go through the tribulation because God gathers the Elect from the four corners of Heaven. I will add verse 29 & 30 below to show why its not what many think, and I will reference Zech. 14:1-3 to show why there has to be major JUMPS in prophesy timelines. And by the way, many see these two verses below and argue the DOTL is only ONE DAY, because it says IMMEDIATELY AFTER, but they misconstrue the two verses very badly.

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days[BEGIN as the Rev. 8 Asteroid HITS in Trumps 1-3] shall the sun be darkened(Trump 4), and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken(Satan is cast down at the 1260 middle of the week events):

30 And then(1260 days LATER) shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Now read Zech. 14:1-2 it says the DOTL arrives, and in verse 2 Jerusalem will be conquered, now watch verse 3 how it JUMPS 1260 days just like Matt. 24:29-30. Why? Because prophesy would take up a whole library if God added in every event over 2000 years on every prophetic utterance.

Zech. 14:3 Then shall the Lord go forth(1260 days LATER just like ABOVE), and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle. 4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives........

So, lets get to your overall point now that I have shown we have jumps on TIMELINES from one verse to another. Lets discuss Matt. 24 overall, because we can not solve the overall issues unless we dissect the chapter in full.


Before that I will overcome the thrust of your confusion.

The whole "NO MAN KNOWS THE DAY NOR THE HOUR" is not about the 2nd coming, its about the Pre Tribulation Rapture that ends the Summer Harvest at the Feast of Trumps. The Beast is a KNOWN ENTITY !! He rules for how many days as a Beast when he Conquers Israel? 1260 days then Jesus RETURNS to kill him and all his minions, if anyone living in the 70th week can count to 1260 then they will be able to say THIS MAN (Beast) conquered Israel on this certain day, and since has only has 1260 days to rule before Jesus shows up to wipe him out, so I will just add 1260 days to the day he conquered Israel on and have the answer to when the 2nd Coming is.

Its simple math my friend, you are proving my point this can only be about a Pre Trib. Rapture, the 2nd coming is a KNOWN TIME, its 1260 days after the Beast conquers Israel or 2520 days after he signs am Agreement with Israel. Which proves the whole DAY NOR HOUR reference can only be about a pre trib. rapture.

I have to go somewhere, so I can not get into the weeds right now on Matt. 24 in general, but suffice it tom say that Jesus telling the Disciples the Temple would be destroyed, led them to ask Three Questions, WHEN would this happen (Temples Destruction) and what will be the sign of your coming AND the end of the world (as they knew it......meaning when is the Promised Kingdom Age)

So, not getting into the details too far, verses 4-6 is about 70 AD only and verses 7-8 is merely showing WHY verses 4-6 can not be THE END by Jesus giving a DEMONSTRSTION to things that must come first (hence the whole "The end is not yet"). Then we return to the Disciples time on earth, and in verses 9-13 we see Jesus explaining how they would be betrayed by False Prophets (the Zeus, Jupiter types will cry to Rome about losing their flocks to Christianity) who will make sure they are killed, then Jesus warns in vs. 13 for them to be FAITHFUL until the END [of their lives] then in vs. 14 we see when the Rapture of the church will come, when the Gospel has been preached unto the whole world, so the Disciples knew they would never see this Rapture, unless they could take the Gospel to China, India and the Scythians (modern day Russia). Then we see the 70th week troubles in verses 15-29-30 and Jesus return in vs. 31.

You see Jesus only came via his ministry unto the lost sheep of Israel. So he gave Israel's plight as a nation overall first. We will see 1/3 of Israel repent (Zech. 13:8-9) just before the DOTL arrives in Zech. 14:1. Thus they are now the ELECT on earth right? So, yes Jesus gathers THE ELECT from the four corners of earth which might be the Martyrs and the Jews or that could mean the Elect IN HEAVEN for 7 years (Marrying the Lamb) who return with him in vs. 31. Either way, it never proves that there is no Pre Trip. Rapture as you assume, AT ALL. Now Jesus knows some Jews will be a part of his Bride, including his Disciples, so he has to also tell their plight, here is where the Parable of the Fig Tree verses come in. It is indeed only about the 2nd coming which we saw in verses 30-31 but verses 36-51 is about the Pre Trib. Rapture. The problem is you added a verse to the parable, its ONLY verses 32-35. I googled this to make sure I was not in error. Come on man, you can not do stuff like that. See the google answer below !!

The parable of the fig tree in Matthew is found in Matthew 24:32-35, which consists of four verses.

So, take away vs. 36 and lets continue, you even confused me for a second. As I was saying, verses 32-35 is not about the Rapture and the DAY NOR HOUR VERSE, it is about the 2nd coming. Jesus says so. Then in verses 36 on he tells about the Pre Trib. Rapture, no man know the day nor the hour, it will be as in the days of Noah where they were buying and selling and oblivious unto what was soon to come, then the rain came............BOOM..........if it was the 2nd coming as you wrongly assume here, how could they not know what was coming? They have been hiding in caves, getting hit by plague after plague, Trumps 1-4 then Woes 1, 2 and 3 which are Trumps 5, 6 and 7. The Seals are Not Judgements but mere Prophetic Utterances of the soon to come Judgment Trumps. All the Wrath/Judgments come from the 7 Trumps, the 7th Trump gives us the 3rd Woe which is the 7 Vials.

Also, when it says one will be TAKEN and one will be LEFT, that is the Church, Jesus told us that only 5 of the 10 Virgins will make the Wedding Call !! BOOM. Half of the Churches 2 billion people are not true Christians of God, and thus without the holy spirit seal they are not going to make it.

Fisherking: “Also, when it says one will be TAKEN and one will be LEFT, that is the Church.”

Dispensationalists have “taken” and “left” in Matthew 24 completely BACKWARDS.

Consider what the famous historical commentator John Gill, a Baptist, says in his commentary on the Bible.

Two men will be in the field; one will be taken and the other left.
Two women will be grinding with a hand mill; one will be
taken and the other left.
Matthew 24:40-41 NIV

I have already quoted the Thief Verse, Matthew 24:43. First, we must understand that the “eagles” mentioned in Matthew 24 are not angels. Eagles, like vultures, are scavengers, so they are attracted to dead bodies. More important, the eagle was a symbol used by Rome, the Roman Empire, and so Roman soldiers are described as eagles. In these verses Jesus is talking about the siege of Jerusalem in 70 AD, when the Jewish Temple was destroyed.

John Gill’s commentary:

<<Matthew 24:40
Then shall two be in the field
About their proper business, of husbandry, ploughing, or sowing, or any other rural employment: the one shall be taken;
not by the preaching of the Gospel, into the kingdom of God, or Gospel dispensation; though such a distinction God makes, by the ministry of the word, accompanied by his Spirit and power; nor by angels, to meet Christ in the air, and to be introduced into his kingdom and glory; but by the eagles, the Roman army, and either killed or carried captive by them: and the other left;
not in a state of nature and unregeneracy, as many are, to whom the Gospel is preached; nor with devils at the last day, to be thrust down by them into the infernal regions; but by the Romans, being by some remarkable providence, or another, delivered out of their hands …>>

Again, for Matthew 24:41, Gill tells us:

< ...the one shall be taken, and the other left;
as before, one shall be taken by the Romans, and either put to death, or carried captive; and the other shall escape their hands, through the singular providence of God. >>

We find the same thing in Luke.

I tell you, on that night two people will be in one bed; one will be taken and the other left.
Two women will be grinding grain together; one will be taken and the other left.”
Luke 17:34-35 NIV

John Gill’s commentary:

<< The one shall be taken;
by the Roman soldiers:
and the other shall be left;
being, by one providence or another preserved; >>

The words “taken” and “left” in the apocalyptic chapters in Matthew and Luke have nothing to do with any supposed “rapture.”


Links
Matthew 24:40 - Bible Verse Meaning and Commentary
Matthew 24:41 - Bible Verse Meaning and Commentary
Luke 17:34 - Bible Verse Meaning and Commentary

 

[Fisherking]

Fisherking: “Also, when it says one will be TAKEN and one will be LEFT, that is the Church.”

Dispensationalists have “taken” and “left” in Matthew 24 completely BACKWARDS.

Consider what the famous historical commentator John Gill, a Baptist, says in his commentary on the Bible.

Two men will be in the field; one will be taken and the other left.
Two women will be grinding with a hand mill; one will be
taken and the other left.
Matthew 24:40-41 NIV

I have already quoted the Thief Verse, Matthew 24:43. First, we must understand that the “eagles” mentioned in Matthew 24 are not angels. Eagles, like vultures, are scavengers, so they are attracted to dead bodies. More important, the eagle was a symbol used by Rome, the Roman Empire, and so Roman soldiers are described as eagles. In these verses Jesus is talking about the siege of Jerusalem in 70 AD, when the Jewish Temple was destroyed.

John Gill’s commentary:

<<Matthew 24:40
Then shall two be in the field
About their proper business, of husbandry, ploughing, or sowing, or any other rural employment: the one shall be taken;
not by the preaching of the Gospel, into the kingdom of God, or Gospel dispensation; though such a distinction God makes, by the ministry of the word, accompanied by his Spirit and power; nor by angels, to meet Christ in the air, and to be introduced into his kingdom and glory; but by the eagles, the Roman army, and either killed or carried captive by them: and the other left;
not in a state of nature and unregeneracy, as many are, to whom the Gospel is preached; nor with devils at the last day, to be thrust down by them into the infernal regions; but by the Romans, being by some remarkable providence, or another, delivered out of their hands …>>

Again, for Matthew 24:41, Gill tells us:

< ...the one shall be taken, and the other left;
as before, one shall be taken by the Romans, and either put to death, or carried captive; and the other shall escape their hands, through the singular providence of God. >>

We find the same thing in Luke.

I tell you, on that night two people will be in one bed; one will be taken and the other left.
Two women will be grinding grain together; one will be taken and the other left.”
Luke 17:34-35 NIV

John Gill’s commentary:

<< The one shall be taken;
by the Roman soldiers:
and the other shall be left;
being, by one providence or another preserved; >>

The words “taken” and “left” in the apocalyptic chapters in Matthew and Luke have nothing to do with any supposed “rapture.”


Links
Matthew 24:40 - Bible Verse Meaning and Commentary
Matthew 24:41 - Bible Verse Meaning and Commentary
Luke 17:34 - Bible Verse Meaning and Commentary

I just destroyed your whole thesis brother, yet you cling to it like its all important. Nothing is important but the truth. As in the days of Noah where they were drinking, eating and giving in marriage means they were living NORMAL LIVES, not 1260 days in he Wrath of God. You know I am correct, another DODGE.

 

[JulieB67]

That the church, the body of Christ and the center of God's plan for creation--to prepare a bride for his Son (Eph 5:30-32), would be a "parenthesis" in God's plan is blasphemous.

Sorry, I'm not sure if you're agreeing with my post about the Scofield bible or not. I posted that I believe that it along with Darby pushed the pretrib rapture belief which I don't find to be biblical at all.

 

[JulieB67]

I only been called to preach 40 plus years with a dedicated workload of studies under my belt. QUESTION. reread the whole passage, where at any point is the passage speaking about "Faith"? Nowhere, but in the very FIRST VERSE it is spoking about a Gathering unto the Lord,

I've read the passage many many times and it speaks for itself. Paul even tells them to not be shaken in mind or confused by even a letter from them that the day was at hand. What day is that? The day that he described in 1st 4/5. Our gathering back together will not happen until a falling away happens and the son of perdition sits on the throne proclaiming to be God. Falling away has never meant departure from the earth. I posted other verses that back that up. It's always a defection from the truth or faith which is what will happen to some even claiming to be Christians (Foolish Virgins, etc) who most likely will fall away and believe Satan and Co by the wonder of those miracles performed brought forth. As I've posted that's what the gospel armor is for. To be able to withstand Satan's trickery/wiles in "the evil day" It's all there, It's all laid out. Christ and Paul give the warnings and it's up to us to heed them them.

Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy(Departure) comes first

Paul is writing this second letter to clear up the confusion some were already having. He's stating that the day of Christ is not at hand. So if you're stating that the day could happen at any time because that's what you believe the "falling away" is then that makes no sense on what the confusion would have been about. Instead he makes it very clear what will happen. Some supposedly had even stopped working because they thought the day would arrive any moment and he lays it all out that the day "shall not happen" until a falling away and the son of perdition, etc. If the pretrib rapture could happen at any time, what were they confused about?
I've also posted the verse where he also states very specifically that in the latter days some would depart from the faith. This is a second witness to his teachings in 2nd Thes.

The word is used in verb form a total of 15 times in the New Testament, and only three of these have anything to do with a departure from the faith (Luke 8:13, 1 Timothy 4:1, and Hebrews 3:12). In other settings, the word is used for departing from iniquity (2 Timothy 2:19), departing from ungodly men (1 Timothy 6:5), departing from the temple (Luke 2:27), departing from the body (2 Corinthians 12:8), and departing from persons (Acts 12:10 and Luke 4:13).

Mr. Tommy Ice has pointed out that the Greek noun, apostasia, is used only twice in the New Testament. The other occurrence is in Acts 21:21 where it states that an accusation was made against Paul that he was “teaching all the Jews who are among the Gentiles to forsake [apostasia] Moses.”

The word is used in verb form a total of 15 times in the New Testament, and only three of these have anything to do with a departure from the faith (Luke 8:13, 1 Timothy 4:1, and Hebrews 3:12). In other settings, the word is used for departing from iniquity (2 Timothy 2:19), departing from ungodly men (1 Timothy 6:5), departing from the temple (Luke 2:27), departing from the body (2 Corinthians 12:8), and departing from persons (Acts 12:10 and Luke 4:13).

It still would be forsaking, etc. You are really reaching for it to be a departure from the earth. It has nothing to do with that.

I do deep dives in Greek and Hebrew sister.

Hey, if you want to toot your own horn that's fine. I prefer to seek truth based on the Word as a whole. And going back to the Greek/Hebrew to seek out what might be lost in translation since many English words when taken back can be different words when utilized in different verses etc.

I once believed as you did. I was indoctrinated at an early age with that belief. But it's not biblical. Even the thought of it today seems quite preposterous. It would be mass chaos, planes falling out of skies, massive crashes, pile ups, death all throughout the world in all walks of life. I don't believe that would be part of God's plan. I believe it's going to be just as Christ states, he comes at an hour most do not expect. What hour would that be? When people are stating "peace and safety". That's the thief in the night analogy. That's the shocker.

the Rapture is easy, nothing else can fit all the timelies.

Easy when you split his Second Coming into two events. But even then you have verses like this-



I Thessalonians 4:15 "For we say unto you, by the word of our Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent in no wise [precede] them which are asleep."

I once asked another pretrib poster on here- When you see the words "coming (singular) of the Lord is that describing a pretrib rapture or the Second Coming and he said the Second Coming. And then I posted that verse and he said something of the sort "it depends" so he changed his mind that fast. That's what pretribbers have to to. They constantly have to change, etc including seeking out different definitions just as you are doing instead of letting the scriptures speak for themselves.

I just destroyed your whole thesis brother, yet you cling to it like its all important

Have you ever done a word study on the word "taken"?

Matthew 24:40 "Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken and the other left."

This is what I meant by some English words when translated back can be more than one Hebrew/Greek word when utilized in certain verses. This is one example.

The word taken in this verse is Greek word paralambano-to receive near i.e. associate oneself near (in any familiar or intimate act) to assume an office, to learn, receive, take.

Compare that with the use of the word taken in this verse which does mean removal-

Matthew 9:15 "And Jesus said unto them, "Can the children of the bride chamber mourn, as long as the bridegroom is with them? but the days will come, when the bridegroom shall be taken from them, and then shall they fast."

Completely different Greek word -apairo- to lift off, i.e. remove -take away.

That would be the word you would want utilized in Matthew 24:40 but it's not. Different word altogether with a different meaning. It does not mean taken away.

 

[Clare73]

Read t he CONTEXT, that tells you what the Departure is about.

The departure is from the faith, which is apostasy.

 

[Clare73]

Sorry, I'm not sure if you're agreeing with my post about the Scofield bible or not. I posted that I believe that it along with Darby pushed the pretrib rapture belief which I don't find to be biblical at all.

On that we agree. . .

 

[Fisherking]

I've read the passage many many times and it speaks for itself. Paul even tells them to not be shaken in mind or confused by even a letter from them that the day was at hand. What day is that? The day that he described in 1st 4/5. Our gathering back together will not happen until a falling away happens and the son of perdition sits on the throne proclaiming to be God. Falling away has never meant departure from the earth. I posted other verses that back that up.

So, you just ignore the facts that the first 7 English translations were DEPARTURE and not a falling away? And posting other verses that is not about the subject at hand means nothing, it could only be relevant if this was a Departure from the Faith, it is not. That would be like you confusing a Greek word that meant Corvette for Mustang, then you post 7 posts about a Mustang and say SEE, SEE, SEE. And I am afraid you do not really even get that sister because you have a blind spot, (most humans do, we all love to be right) being right is a pride thing, humans are prideful by nature.

Until about 10 years ago I had the exact same hang-ups on "my opinions" until I prayed this prayer, even after having studied Eschatology for 30 years at that time. I was like "Lord, why is it we as a church have so much confusion with 100s of interpretations on who the 144,000 are, who the Beast is, who Babylon is when there can only be one true answer Lord? And I got this below back from the holy spirit.

"Ron, you guys already know it all"

I knew at that moment the holy spirit was telling me that us, the whole church, could not hear His true voice on these things because (like Jesus told the Pharisees) we were listening to OTHER MENS IDEAS !! God is never wrong, the pre trib. rapture is easy sister. You will be wrong and find out at the rapture, why? Because you already have the answers, even though you really don't.

Guess what I did? I was writing a blog on why Rome was THAT CITY in Rev. 17:18, I had already published it, and I had to rewrite it, all because after that other prayer above, I promised God I would do the simple thing, like I did with the Gospels, pray that God give me all of the answers. And on every point He has answered me. So, as I was rereading/reproofing the holy spirit was like Ron Revelation 17:3-6 is the only part that shows the vision which John saw. By the time I finished studying and praying God had showed me that Babylon was THAT CITY but it stood as one descriptor of three that described who the Harlot was. It was never MYSTERY BABYLON, the word Mystery is more akin to a question mark or header like this

MYSTERY

1.) Babylon the Great (Babylon was world renowned for FALSE RELIGION)

2.) Mother of Harlots (FALSE RELIGION was the original Harlotry)

3.) Abominations of the Earth (God hates all FALSE RELIGION, He is a Jealous God)

MYSTERY.......Then THREE CLUES, which solves the Mystery of who the Harlot is, she is ALL FALSE RELIGION of All Time. The Harlot (False Religion) rides the back of the [Gov.] Beasts, and they were intermingled with Babylon, Greece and Rome, et al. as we know. But the A.C. and his 10 Kings (Complete E.U.) destroy this Harlot woman but why? Because there is no place for FALSE RELIGION in the Anti-Christs Kingdom, he desires to be worshipped as the ONLY God.

That is what the holy spirit can reveal unto us IF........we do not already think we know it all. Sadly too many of you guys are stuck on other men's bad understandings. The pre trib. rapture is something babes should get easily.

 

[JulieB67]

So, you just ignore the facts that the first 7 English translations were DEPARTURE?

Departing from the faith and falling away are the same thing. It does not mean a departure from the earth. The Greek word has nothing to do with that.

because you have a blind spot, (most humans do, we all love to be right) being right is a pride thing.

Thanks for the presumption.

I was sitting right were you're at when someone once planted the seed for me that got me studying over 20 years ago. The fact that the pretrib rapture was false doctrine. Did I want to be right? No, I wanted the truth, no matter what that might be and that I would accept the love of that truth as Paul teaches. It had nothing to do with pride or anything. I was shocked to my core that I had been fed milk -false milk at that all those years blindly accepting what I had been taught. Even though one should study to show themselves approved. Let's just say I'll never make that mistake again.

. The pre trib rapture is something babes should get easily.

Yes, if one continues to cherry pick verses and separate what is actually one more coming into two.

I'll ask you the same question I asked the other poster. When you see the words "coming of the Lord" do you believe it is describing a pretrib rapture or Second Coming?

 

[Dale]

That the church, the body of Christ and the center of God's plan for creation--to prepare a bride for his Son (Eph 5:30-32), would be a "parenthesis" in God's plan is blasphemous.

I agree. God does not have to change His plans. There are passages in the Old Testament that foretell the coming of the Church.

 

[Valletta]

Paul, Jesus and God pushed it........you do understand that for like 12-1300 years until the printing press men were told what they should think by other men high up in these churches right. You act like everyone had a bible and thus had the ability to study it, but thy didn't, thus Martin Luther's reformation was about getting around these shoddy church positions. So, up until the mid 1500s most people had no way to study the bible, then they had to overcome the indoctrination by these RCC & Church of England types.

Realize that before the printing press the vast majority of people were illiterate. The Apostles preached the Gospels by word of mouth, and the Catholic Church, in a process that spanned centuries, chose the books of the Bible and gave the world the Bible in the late 300s. Before the printing press, since Bibles were extremely expensive, a Catholic monastery might just have one Bible. Thus priests and monks had to memorize long passages before going out to preach the Gospel. When a Catholic named Gutenberg came up with the printing press the first book he printed was the Bible. Of course, having books available greatly increased literacy. The rapture idea took hold mainly in America not too many centuries ago.

 

[Clare73]

Realize that before the printing press the vast majority of people were illiterate. The Apostles preached the Gospels by word of mouth, and the Catholic Church, in a process that spanned centuries, chose the books of the Bible and gave the world the Bible in the late 300s. Before the printing press, since Bibles were extremely expensive, a Catholic monastery might just have one Bible. Thus priests and monks had to memorize long passages before going out to preach the Gospel. When a Catholic named Gutenberg came up with the printing press the first book he printed was the Bible. Of course, having books available greatly increased literacy. The rapture idea took hold mainly in America not too many centuries ago.

Don't know why Jerome would choose the Latin rapturo to translate the Greek harpazo, which means "snatching up."

And also don't know why Jerome would translate the Greek musterion into the Latin sacramentum instead of the Latin mysterium,
which mistranslation has produced extra-Biblical doctrine; e.g., sacraments: confirmation, penance, matrimony.

 

[Clare73]

I agree. God does not have to change His plans. There are passages in the Old Testament that foretell the coming of the Church.

The Church (ekklesia: called-out assembly, including the OT saints, Ac 7:38) is simply the continuation of God's OT people into his NT people.

 

[Fisherking]

Realize that before the printing press the vast majority of people were illiterate. The Apostles preached the Gospels by word of mouth, and the Catholic Church, in a process that spanned centuries, chose the books of the Bible and gave the world the Bible in the late 300s. Before the printing press, since Bibles were extremely expensive, a Catholic monastery might just have one Bible. Thus priests and monks had to memorize long passages before going out to preach the Gospel. When a Catholic named Gutenberg came up with the printing press the first book he printed was the Bible. Of course, having books available greatly increased literacy. The rapture idea took hold mainly in America not too many centuries ago.

So, people who say THE CHURCH never understood the pre trib. rapture are REALLY SAYING the RCC and Church of England didn't teach this. Once the holy spirit had the chance to enlighten the masses he did. That destroy the whole 1830s thesis.

The Pre Trib. Rapture is child's play.