The Purpose of the Earth

[Paul4JC]

I agree. ... but in trying to explain, you used a contradiction.
You said "The earth was once destroyed". Then you said, "The earth itself doesn't need to be destroyed".
There is a term used for this. It's called a paradox.

I agree. I should have given the strongs for

destruction in 2 Peter 3:7

apollumi: to destroy, destroy utterly
Original Word: ἀπόλλυμι
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: apollumi
Phonetic Spelling: (ap-ol'-loo-mee)
Definition: to destroy, destroy utterly
Usage: (a) I kill, destroy, (b) I lose, mid: I am perishing (the resultant death being viewed as certain).
Usage: overthrow, destruction, material or spiritual.

I do believe the antediluvian world was Pangea, and was split up during the flood.

A problem I will focus on is the idea that God will destroy or ruin the earth using literal fire.
This is a problem for two reasons.
One reason is that God promised, “I will never again curse the ground because of the human race, even though everything they think or imagine is bent toward evil from childhood. I will never again destroy all living things." Genesis 8:21

Will look into this more. Wildfires in California destroy a lot of properties and even some people get killed. The land (earth) there becomes inhabitable for a while. I think this will be the case for the whole earth until it's restored. I also mentioned that I believe there will be a resurrection of all creation, primarily the heavens and the earth.

God bless

 

[CoreyD]

I agree. I should have given the strongs for

destruction in 2 Peter 3:7

apollumi: to destroy, destroy utterly
Original Word: ἀπόλλυμι
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: apollumi
Phonetic Spelling: (ap-ol'-loo-mee)
Definition: to destroy, destroy utterly
Usage: (a) I kill, destroy, (b) I lose, mid: I am perishing (the resultant death being viewed as certain).
Usage: overthrow, destruction, material or spiritual.

This is interesting.
It again shows the importance of recognizing the different usages of the word, based on the context.

If for example, we read Revelation 11:18, we see two usage of the Greek word, which some translations render destroy.
"...and for destroying (diaphtheiró: to destroy utterly, to spoil, corrupt) those who destroy (diaphtheiró: to destroy utterly, to spoil, corrupt) the earth." (NIV)

So, we see how this creates similar confusion as mentioned earlier.
It would be less confusing if we used the word spoiling, or corrupting.... even ruining, with reference to mankind's "destroying" the earth.
"...and you shall destroy those who have corrupted The Earth.” (Aramaic Bible in Plain English)

That's better.
So, at 2 Peter 3:7, God will indeed utterly destroy the ungodly - the world. Not the literal planet earth.
By the same word the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire, being kept for the day of judgment and destruction of the ungodly. (NIV)

Just as the world of Noah's time was destroyed, and not the literal planet earth, the same will be true during the judgment.
2 Peter 3:6 By these waters also the world of that time was deluged and destroyed. (NIV)

2 Peter 3:5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: (KJV)

Some make a mistake with this verse, as is seen in NIV, and others.
They don't understand the verse, and therefore render it as referring to creation of the heavens, and earth. However, Peter does not refer to creation, but to Noah's day.
So, I used the KJV which does not alter the text... surprisingly.

The heavens of old, are not the literal heavens.
The earth standing out of the water and in the water, does not refer to the literal earth.
There was an earth standing out of the water and in the water, but figuratively. Again, see this post.

I do believe the antediluvian world was Pangea, and was split up during the flood.

I do as well. This is evident both from scripture, and history.

Will look into this more. Wildfires in California destroy a lot of properties and even some people get killed. The land (earth) there becomes inhabitable for a while. I think this will be the case for the whole earth until it's restored. I also mentioned that I believe there will be a resurrection of all creation, primarily the heavens and the earth.

God bless

When we consider Genesis 8:21 and we consider God's purpose - his will, as expressed at Genesis 1:24-28, it is not hard to understand that the fire cannot be literal.
God does not go back on his word, and his purpose will be realized. Isaiah 55:10, 11
It will not be done out of harmony with his will, though.

Wildfires kill animals as well.
God is not going to kill all the animals.
How do we know?
Genesis 6:19-20
19 And of every living thing of all flesh you shall bring two of every sort into the ark, to keep them alive with you; they shall be male and female. 20 Of the birds after their kind, of animals after their kind, and of every creeping thing of the earth after its kind, two of every kind will come to you to keep them alive.
God preserved the animals during Noah's day.

God will not take the animals to heaven.
How do we know? God does not express that anywhere in the Bible, but he does tell us, flesh and blood cannot enter the kingdom of the heavens. Animals are not promised spiritual bodies.

There is no reason for God to break his promises, in order to accomplish his will.
God will never deal every living thing a blow, because of man.
God is simply going to destroy the wicked, and preserve the righteous Psalm 37:34; Proverbs 2:21, 22; 1 John 2:17, and planet earth, will be saved. Revelation 11:18

What about the new heavens, and the new earth?
Please see here, and here, and we can discuss it further, if you like.

Have a good night.

 

[CoreyD]

Some persons believe that God is going to take animals to heaven.
Where the idea came from can be gleaned by understanding why almost every religious person wants to go to heaven... including Muslims

The teaching that heaven, or some type of it, is the destiny of man is found in many religions - old and new.
So, many who set their hopes on heavenly life, imagine that their beloved pets will be with them.
Pets and the Afterlife: Will My Companion Animal Go to Heaven?

The Bible does tells us what God's purpose for the earth is, and how animals fit into that purpose.
Genesis 1:20-31
20 And God said, “Let the water teem with living creatures, and let birds fly above the earth across the vault of the sky.” 21 So God created the great creatures of the sea and every living thing with which the water teems and that moves about in it, according to their kinds, and every winged bird according to its kind. And God saw that it was good. 22 God blessed them and said, “Be fruitful and increase in number and fill the water in the seas, and let the birds increase on the earth.” 23 And there was evening, and there was morning—the fifth day.
24 And God said, “Let the land produce living creatures according to their kinds: the livestock, the creatures that move along the ground, and the wild animals, each according to its kind.” And it was so. 25 God made the wild animals according to their kinds, the livestock according to their kinds, and all the creatures that move along the ground according to their kinds. And God saw that it was good.
26 Then God said, “Let us make mankind in our image, in our likeness, so that they may rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky, over the livestock and all the wild animals, and over all the creatures that move along the ground.”
27 So God created mankind in his own image,
in the image of God he created them;
male and female he created them.
28 God blessed them and said to them, “Be fruitful and increase in number; fill the earth and subdue it. Rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky and over every living creature that moves on the ground.”
29 Then God said, “I give you every seed-bearing plant on the face of the whole earth and every tree that has fruit with seed in it. They will be yours for food. 30 And to all the beasts of the earth and all the birds in the sky and all the creatures that move along the ground—everything that has the breath of life in it—I give every green plant for food.” And it was so.
31 God saw all that he had made, and it was very good. And there was evening, and there was morning—the sixth day.

God created animal life - air breathing creatures - to live on the earth, and live by the food - vegetation - God made available in abundance for them.
Animals were to be subject to man, and they were to multiply and fill the earth in abundance.

God's purpose remains the same, and so the time will come when God's word is fulfilled, and animals are all subject to man.
Isaiah 11:6-9
6 The wolf will live with the lamb,
the leopard will lie down with the goat,
the calf and the lion and the yearling together;
and a little child will lead them.

7 The cow will feed with the bear,
their young will lie down together,
and the lion will eat straw like the ox.
8 The infant will play near the cobra’s den,
and the young child will put its hand into the viper’s nest.
9 They will neither harm nor destroy
on all my holy mountain,
for the earth will be filled with the knowledge of the Lord
as the waters cover the sea.

Isaiah 65:17-25 prophesies what conditions will be like, when both man and animals live together on the beautiful earth God made for them - their home.

 

[bling]

Scientists and Creationists alike, believe our planet earth will be destroyed.

2 Peter 3:7 By the same word the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire, being kept for the day of judgment and destruction of the ungodly.

That is the Bible saying “reserved for fire…” which sounds like destruction.

Spoiler: Scientists View

Today, the sun is an essential source of gravity and energy. But one day, it will cause Earth's demise. As the solar system's central star ages, its life cycle will eventually consume our blue marble.

So how long does Earth have until the planet is swallowed by the sun? Expected time of death: several billion years from now. But life on Earth will end much, much sooner than that.

Earth will become unlivable for most organisms in about 1.3 billion years due to the sun's natural evolution, experts told Live Science. And humans could potentially drive ourselves (and countless other species) to extinction within the next few centuries, if the current pace of human-made climate change isn't mitigated, or as a consequence of nuclear war.
Today, the sun is an essential source of gravity and energy. But one day, it will cause Earth's demise. As the solar system's central star ages, its life cycle will eventually consume our blue marble.

Source: How long will Earth exist?

Creationists use 2 Peter 3:5-7 as the basis for their belief that our planet earth will be destroyed.

What does the Bible say about planet earth, and it's purpose?
God created the earth for mankind to live on. To be man's dwelling place - their home.
Isaiah 45:18


Psalm 115:16


Has God changed his mind about his purpose, for the earth?
God answers:
I, the LORD, do not change. Malachi 3:6

Beings like man (mankind), will not exist after death, so earth is not needed for mankind if they are all gone.

Matthew 22:30 At the resurrection people will neither marry nor be given in marriage; they will be like the angels in heaven.

Luke 20:36 and they can no longer die; for they are like the angels. They are God’s children, since they are children of the resurrection.

Was the thief on the cross like humans (mankind) in paradise after his death or did his human body stay in the grave

The righteous will inherit the earth and dwell in it forever. Psalm 37:29

Has God decided that planet earth is too bad to live on, and so decides to totally destroy it?
God answers:
A generation goes and a generation comes, But the earth remains forever. Ecclesiastes 1:4
He built His sanctuary like the heights, like the earth He has established forever. Psalm 78:69
He established the earth upon its foundations, So that it will not totter forever and ever. Psalm 104:5

Thus, the earth remains forever, and righteous mankind will inhabit it, forever.
God's purpose for the earth will be a reality.

NASB Translation the Hebrew word olam

ages (1), all successive (1), always (1), ancient (13), ancient times (3), continual (1), days of old (1), eternal (2), eternity (3), ever (10), Everlasting (2), everlasting (110), forever (136), forever and ever (1), forever* (70), forevermore* (1), lasting (1), long (2), long ago (3), long past (1), long time (3), never* (17), old (11), permanent (10), permanently (1), perpetual (29), perpetually (1)

So the English word does not always mean never ending.

 

[CoreyD]

2 Peter 3:7 By the same word the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire, being kept for the day of judgment and destruction of the ungodly.

That is the Bible saying “reserved for fire…” which sounds like destruction.

It is destruction... but not of the physical earth.
Did you read the scriptures in the OP? Which ones do you think are not correct about the physical earth?

Beings like man (mankind), will not exist after death, so earth is not needed for mankind if they are all gone.

Matthew 22:30 At the resurrection people will neither marry nor be given in marriage; they will be like the angels in heaven.

Luke 20:36 and they can no longer die; for they are like the angels. They are God’s children, since they are children of the resurrection.

Are you certain you understand what is being said in these scriptures?
Does Revelation 21:3 not refer to men (anthrópos: a man, human, mankind)?

Revelation 21:3 Interlinear: and I heard a great voice out of the heaven, saying, 'Lo, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will tabernacle with them, and they shall be His peoples, and God Himself shall be with them -- their God,

Do you accept that scripture?
Might Jesus have been referring to this resurrection?
That resurrection is different to the one that follows Revelation 20:12, 13.

Would you agree?

Was the thief on the cross like humans (mankind) in paradise after his death or did his human body stay in the grave

Tell me what you think, based on these scriptures.

1. 
   John 3:3-5
   

   Jesus replied, “Truly, truly, I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again. ... Truly, truly, I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit.

   The robber were not born again, was he.
   The first annointed by holy spirit were Jesus' early footstep followers. Acts 2:1-3
   These are the ones Jesus made a covenant with, to be with him in heaven, to be heirs of the kingdom. Luke 22:28-30; Galatians 3:29
   
2. 
   1 Corinthians 15:20-23
   

   20 But the fact is, Christ has been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those who are asleep. 22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ’s at His coming,

   
   Hebrews 6:19, 20
   

   19 This hope we have as an anchor of the soul, a hope both sure and reliable and one which enters within the veil, 20 where Jesus has entered as a forerunner for us, having become a high priest forever according to the order of Melchizedek.

   
   Hebrews 10:19, 20
   

   19 Therefore, brothers and sisters, since we have confidence to enter the holy place by the blood of Jesus, 20 by a new and living way which He inaugurated for us through the veil, that is, through His flesh

   
   What was the order of spirit annointed son to heavenly life? The first to go to heaven was Jesus, wasn't it. No one preceded him.

Perhaps read Luke 23:43 with a blank slate - that is, as if you have never been in a church.
With the scriptures above, as your foundation, you should have the correct answer. The man died, and was buried, and would wait until the hour Jesus spoke about at John 5:28, 29

NASB Translation the Hebrew word olam

ages (1), all successive (1), always (1), ancient (13), ancient times (3), continual (1), days of old (1), eternal (2), eternity (3), ever (10), Everlasting (2), everlasting (110), forever (136), forever and ever (1), forever* (70), forevermore* (1), lasting (1), long (2), long ago (3), long past (1), long time (3), never* (17), old (11), permanent (10), permanently (1), perpetual (29), perpetually (1)

So the English word does not always mean never ending.

That's true.

 

[bling]

It is destruction... but not of the physical earth.
Did you read the scriptures in the OP? Which ones do you think are not correct about the physical earth?

Yes, I read the OP.

The Flood of the earth (which is very physical) was used as an example of what is going to happen. The earth came from the waters, but not from fire.

The other verses relate to human being (mankind) needing earth, but angel kind beings do not need earth, so it is not referring to what we become after death.

Are you certain you understand what is being said in these scriptures?

For the most part I am just quoting scripture. Human earthly bodies “die” and are sexual.

Does Revelation 21:3 not refer to men (anthrópos: a man, human, mankind)?

Revelation 21:3 Interlinear: and I heard a great voice out of the heaven, saying, 'Lo, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will tabernacle with them, and they shall be His peoples, and God Himself shall be with them -- their God,

Do you accept that scripture?
Might Jesus have been referring to this resurrection?
That resurrection is different to the one that follows Revelation 20:12, 13.

Would you agree?

Revelation is very poetic, with lots of figurative language, so I question any thing taken literal out of Revelation as a proof text.

You might read one of Dr. Ian Fair’s books on Revelation, since it takes a book of words to best explain it.

Tell me what you think, based on these scriptures.

There is nothing suggesting the thief had a bodily resurrection. I believe Jesus and what He communicated.

1. 
   John 3:3-5
   
   The robber were not born again, was he.
   The first annointed by holy spirit were Jesus' early footstep followers. Acts 2:1-3
   These are the ones Jesus made a covenant with, to be with him in heaven, to be heirs of the kingdom. Luke 22:28-30; Galatians 3:29
2. 
   1 Corinthians 15:20-23
   
   
   Hebrews 6:19, 20
   
   
   Hebrews 10:19, 20
   
   
   What was the order of spirit annointed son to heavenly life? The first to go to heaven was Jesus, wasn't it. No one preceded him.

Perhaps read Luke 23:43 with a blank slate - that is, as if you have never been in a church.
With the scriptures above, as your foundation, you should have the correct answer. The man died, and was buried, and would wait until the hour Jesus spoke about at John 5:28, 29

Again, I believe what Jesus said to the thief. Deity makes the rules and can also break the rules, so Elijah and Enoch never died, but “all” die if Jesus does not come first. Jesus and God can make exception.

At the transfiguration what did the apostles see and where did they come from?

Jesus was in heaven prior to the earth being made.

 

[CoreyD]

Yes, I read the OP.

The Flood of the earth (which is very physical) was used as an example of what is going to happen.

Good.
What does 2 Peter 3:6 say?

through which the world of that time perished in the flood.

What perished in the flood? a) The world of that time (people), or b) the planet?

Since you agreed to the comparison - "an example of what is going to happen", then do you also agree that what will perish, is ungodly people, as mentioned in the next verse - 2 Peter 3:7?

And by that same word, the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire, being kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.

The earth came from the waters, but not from fire.

The other verses relate to human being (mankind) needing earth, but angel kind beings do not need earth, so it is not referring to what we become after death.

I'm not sure what you are responding to here.
If you are referring to the scriptures in the OP, they tell us that God established the earth to be inhabited, and gave it to mankind.
You said that forever can mean an indefinite period, and I agree.
However, at Psalm 78:69 we read... He built His sanctuary like the heights, like the earth He has established forever.
Here, there is a comparison of God's sanctuary with the establishing of the earth, forever.

We also have other scriptures with similar wording.
He established the earth upon its foundations, So that it will not totter forever and ever. Psalm 104:5
When do you believe Psalm 37:11, 29 will be fulfilled, considering that Jesus included that quote in the "Lord's prayer"?

You don't believe human will exist after death, but would that not mean that unrighteous people will go to heaven?
Or, perhaps you believe, unrighteous people will be resurrected, and then cast into hell, but would that not mean they are resurrected in flesh... or do you believe something else?
Does God's word fail? Isaiah 55:10, 11

During the 1,000 years, who are the ones that will be judged, and where will they be?

For the most part I am just quoting scripture. Human earthly bodies “die” and are sexual.

Revelation is very poetic, with lots of figurative language, so I question any thing taken literal out of Revelation as a proof text.

If that is how you feel, I will remember that, and try to work with it.

You might read one of Dr. Ian Fair’s books on Revelation, since it takes a book of words to best explain it.

I'd prefer not to look at someone's interpretation, that another individual favors.

There is nothing suggesting the thief had a bodily resurrection.

We agree here.

I believe Jesus and what He communicated.

That's good.
Are you aware Jesus said this: καὶ εἶπεν αὐτῷ᾿Αμήν σοι λέγω σήμερον μετ’ ἐμοῦ ἔσῃ ἐν τῷ παραδείσῳ
You would notice there are no commas, so since men place the commas, you would agree the text - what Jesus actually said, can be altered?

Again, I believe what Jesus said to the thief. Deity makes the rules and can also break the rules, so Elijah and Enoch never died, but “all” die if Jesus does not come first. Jesus and God can make exception.

Aren't you deciding what you want to be in the text, even though it is not there, yet you don't want to consider a text, because you "question any thing taken literal out of Revelation"?

How then would anything you believe be ever wrong?
Would you not be making that decision, rather than the scriptures?
Here, you have even gone as far as to make the decision for God to make exceptions, that would agree with what you believe.
What you believe is never wrong then, because where the scriptures do not agree, you decide that they do. That's not cool bro. It does not work that way.

What did Jesus say to the thief, that makes you believe a deity broke a rule?
The thief would be in paradise, but interpreting that to mean being with Jesus in heaven, does not make the belief correct.

Jesus did not go to heaven when he died.
Jesus was in the earth for three days - Matthew 12:40. After he was raised up, he remained on the earth for about 40 days - Acts 1:3 After His suffering, He presented Himself to them with many convincing proofs that He was alive. He appeared to them over a span of forty days and spoke about the kingdom of God.
So, that disproves any belief that the thief was in heaven with Jesus, the day he died.

The thief was not righteous, sticking with Jesus through all his trials - Luke 22:28; Revelation 14:4, and was not in the covenant as one born again - John 3:5.
As the authority, the scriptures prove what is true, from what is not. 2 Timothy 3:16, 17

The unrighteous will be resurrected in the last hour. Acts 24:15; John 5:28, 29 Along with others... including Lazarus. John 11:24-26

At the transfiguration what did the apostles see and where did they come from?

They see a vision. Matthew 17:9
Peter believed that he was actually in reality, and he spoke without knowing what he was saying. Luke 9:33
Are you doing the same? Did you not realize it was a vision - a representation?

Jesus was in heaven prior to the earth being made.

Yes, but he was not flesh, and his flesh was not the veil, that would allow entry into heaven.

 

[bling]

Good.
What does 2 Peter 3:6 say?

What perished in the flood? a) The world of that time (people), or b) the planet?

Since you agreed to the comparison - "an example of what is going to happen", then do you also agree that what will perish, is ungodly people, as mentioned in the next verse - 2 Peter 3:7?

Water is the birthplace of land (earth), but fire is all consuming, like the fires of hell. We have both heavens and earth consumed by fire and not just covering the earth.

You are trying to make the “fire” out to be some “spiritual” fire and not a physical fire, when it is compared to the physical flood.

All living things are to be consumed in the fire leaving a scorched earth at best. 2 Peter 3:10

... The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything done in it will be laid bare.

I'm not sure what you are responding to here.
If you are referring to the scriptures in the OP, they tell us that God established the earth to be inhabited, and gave it to mankind.
You said that forever can mean an indefinite period, and I agree.
However, at Psalm 78:69 we read... He built His sanctuary like the heights, like the earth He has established forever.
Here, there is a comparison of God's sanctuary with the establishing of the earth, forever.

We also have other scriptures with similar wording.
He established the earth upon its foundations, So that it will not totter forever and ever. Psalm 104:5
When do you believe Psalm 37:11, 29 will be fulfilled, considering that Jesus included that quote in the "Lord's prayer"?

You don't believe human will exist after death, but would that not mean that unrighteous people will go to heaven?
Or, perhaps you believe, unrighteous people will be resurrected, and then cast into hell, but would that not mean they are resurrected in flesh... or do you believe something else?
Does God's word fail? Isaiah 55:10, 11

Like the rich man and Lazarus in the story of “The Rich Man and Lazarus” after death we have spiritual bodies that can exist without drinking water, yet we can also thirst. There is a time before judgement (sentencing or award assembly) without an earthly physical type body.

Right now, true disciples of Christ do have a problem filled earth to deal with, which is also a wonderful opportunity to serve and mentor others, in the backdrop of tragedies. This earth and the way it is, provides the only logical place for the few willing individual to have a place to fulfill their earthly object where heave or some other type “earth” cannot provide totally free will choices with likely alternatives.

Why would you even want to spend time here on earth when heaven awaits you?

During the 1,000 years, who are the ones that will be judged, and where will they be?

Like much of Revelations, you cannot take it literal and I do not take the “1000 years” as a literal number of years but a long time. I believe John when he said: “because the time is near”.

This takes lots of words and books have been written on it, but I feel we are in the 1000 years right now starting with John and really mostly talking about the fall of the Roman Empire, which would be impossible to state plainly under the fear of death by Rome.

If that is how you feel, I will remember that, and try to work with it.


I'd prefer not to look at someone's interpretation, that another individual favors.

I agree with that, but He has the same ideas as I have and it takes a book to explain.

That's good.
Are you aware Jesus said this: καὶ εἶπεν αὐτῷ᾿Αμήν σοι λέγω σήμερον μετ’ ἐμοῦ ἔσῃ ἐν τῷ παραδείσῳ
You would notice there are no commas, so since men place the commas, you would agree the text - what Jesus actually said, can be altered?

Yes, but good honest Greek translators have good ways of looking at the text and coming up with the most likely alternative punctuation (it is not arbitrary) , which can thus be reviews and defended among his/her peers. They are not always right, but as a Christian you can call on the indwelling Spirit for help.

Aren't you deciding what you want to be in the text, even though it is not there, yet you don't want to consider a text, because you "question any thing taken literal out of Revelation"?

How then would anything you believe be ever wrong?
Would you not be making that decision, rather than the scriptures?
Here, you have even gone as far as to make the decision for God to make exceptions, that would agree with what you believe.
What you believe is never wrong then, because where the scriptures do not agree, you decide that they do. That's not cool bro. It does not work that way.

Scripture was not communicated to me directly in English and limited by my vocabulary, so for the most part I am reading other people’s mail, with the writer trying to communicate to them. “Words” can have several meanings, so I cannot be sure, but I do have help.

First, I must make sure of my motive for wanting to understand a passage in the Bible. Wrong motives include: wanting to win an argument, wanting to support my conclusion, want to sell more books, for academic reasons, to past a test, for intellectual reasons, to show off, to kill time and others like these.

I am not going to learn everything, so I only have time to study what a truly need to know to grow spiritually and help (allow the Spirit work through me mentoring) others with their spiritual growth.

With these needed verses I try to grasp the context, context, context, context and context, I pray as hard and long as the need to know is important, I read it and other similar verses over many times, pray for wisdom and wait for inspiration, I fast when needed and then get with fellow disciples to discuss my ideas.

What did Jesus say to the thief, that makes you believe a deity broke a rule?
The thief would be in paradise, but interpreting that to mean being with Jesus in heaven, does not make the belief correct.

Jesus did not go to heaven when he died.
Jesus was in the earth for three days - Matthew 12:40. After he was raised up, he remained on the earth for about 40 days - Acts 1:3 After His suffering, He presented Himself to them with many convincing proofs that He was alive. He appeared to them over a span of forty days and spoke about the kingdom of God.
So, that disproves any belief that the thief was in heaven with Jesus, the day he died.

Specifically: Luke 23:43 Jesus answered him, “Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise.

Where do you feel this “paradise” is?

The thief was not righteous, sticking with Jesus through all his trials - Luke 22:28; Revelation 14:4, and was not in the covenant as one born again - John 3:5.

As the authority, the scriptures prove what is true, from what is not. 2 Timothy 3:16, 17

The unrighteous will be resurrected in the last hour. Acts 24:15; John 5:28, 29 Along with others... including Lazarus. John 11:24-26

The thief was mocking Jesus like everyone else an hour earlier, but the thief changed and was virtually confessing Jesus as the Messiah. The thief when that day with Jesus to Paradise.

They see a vision. Matthew 17:9
Peter believed that he was actually in reality, and he spoke without knowing what he was saying. Luke 9:33
Are you doing the same? Did you not realize it was a vision - a representation?

Are you taking the transfiguration as not literally happening, because it is not described as just a vision?

 

[CoreyD]

Water is the birthplace of land (earth), but fire is all consuming, like the fires of hell.

We have both heavens and earth consumed by fire and not just covering the earth.

I think it is significant that Peter refers to both heavens and earth, and then says the world of that time perished.
2 Peter 3:5 5 For this they willfully forget: that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of water and in the water, 6 by which the world that then existed perished, being flooded with water.

Then, used a comparison.
2 Peter 3:7 7 But the heavens and the earth which are now preserved by the same word, are reserved for fire until the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

So, since both the physical heavens and earth, of old, were not destroyed, how could Peter be saying that the physical heavens and earth that now exist, will be destroyed. That would not be a comparison at all.
Rather, Peter is referring to figurative heavens and earth, which constitutes the world (past), and ungodly people (present), which are one and the same.

There are examples, in the scriptures of this figurative use.
Isaiah 34:5 For My sword is satiated [with blood] (ravah: to be saturated, drink one's fill) in heaven; Indeed, it will come down for judgment on Edom And on the people whom I have doomed for destruction.
Please also see Haggai 2:20-22, and Genesis 11:1

The heavens and earth are used in scripture figuratively to represent people.
There is also Revelations 20:11.

This would harmonize with the scriptures which says God established the earth like his sanctuary, forever.
It would also harmonize with God's promise, made at Genesis 9:21

The LORD smelled the pleasing aroma [a soothing, satisfying scent] and the LORD said to Himself, “I will never again curse the ground because of man, for the intent (strong inclination, desire) of man’s heart is wicked from his youth; and I will never again destroy every living thing, as I have done.

Do you believe God will break that promise, and destroy the earth, and all the animals, along with it?

You are trying to make the “fire” out to be some “spiritual” fire and not a physical fire, when it is compared to the physical flood.

So, were the physical heavens, and physical earth destroyed in Noah's day?
If you are using a comparison of a physical flood, to a physical fire, should you not also be using a physical heavens and physical earth, in both cases?
Why are you not doing so?

Why is the physical heavens and earth in Noah's day intact, and not destroyed?

All living things are to be consumed in the fire leaving a scorched earth at best. 2 Peter 3:10

... The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything done in it will be laid bare.

Laid bare, or found?
What does that expression - the earth and everything done in it will be found - mean?

Like the rich man and Lazarus in the story of “The Rich Man and Lazarus” after death we have spiritual bodies that can exist without drinking water, yet we can also thirst. There is a time before judgement (sentencing or award assembly) without an earthly physical type body.

We can dismiss this, since parables are narratives illustrating a lesson (usually religious/moral) by comparison or analogy.
So, to use these as evidence of reality is to ignore the fact that it is an illustration with elements used to signify something else.
Just as you view Revelation, is the way illustrations are.

Right now, true disciples of Christ do have a problem filled earth to deal with, which is also a wonderful opportunity to serve and mentor others, in the backdrop of tragedies. This earth and the way it is, provides the only logical place for the few willing individual to have a place to fulfill their earthly object where heave or some other type “earth” cannot provide totally free will choices with likely alternatives.

???
I'm not exactly sure what it is you are trying to say here, but it is your opinion, is it not?

Why would you even want to spend time here on earth when heaven awaits you?

Who told you that? A pastor?
If so, it might be better to consider what the scriptures say.

Could you therefore please answer my questions, since the scriptures are what we are discussing, as opposed to personal opinions, and desires, or wishes, based on what we have been told.

When do you believe Psalm 37:11, 29 will be fulfilled, considering that Jesus included that quote in the "Lord's prayer"?

You don't believe human will exist after death, but would that not mean that unrighteous people will go to heaven?
Or, perhaps you believe, unrighteous people will be resurrected, and then cast into hell, but would that not mean they are resurrected in flesh... or do you believe something else?
Does God's word fail? Isaiah 55:10, 11

Like much of Revelations, you cannot take it literal and I do not take the “1000 years” as a literal number of years but a long time. I believe John when he said: “because the time is near”.

This takes lots of words and books have been written on it, but I feel we are in the 1000 years right now starting with John and really mostly talking about the fall of the Roman Empire, which would be impossible to state plainly under the fear of death by Rome.

Okay, let's ignore this then, since interpretations and ideas about what we feel, without actually considering the book of Revelation, would not be meaningful.

I agree with that, but He has the same ideas as I have and it takes a book to explain.

Well it takes two to discuss.
If one offers their interpretation on revelation, but do not want to consider the actual scriptures in Revelation, it's not a discussion.

Yes, but good honest Greek translators have good ways of looking at the text and coming up with the most likely alternative punctuation (it is not arbitrary) , which can thus be reviews and defended among his/her peers. They are not always right, but as a Christian you can call on the indwelling Spirit for help.

So, which indwelling spirit tells the truth?
The one that says what we agree with, or the one that disagrees with us?
That does not work.

We are not the authority to decide what, or who is a "good honest Greek translator". The scriptures are the authority on that, and the spirit in us, seem to be saying what we want to hear, rather than what God's word says.

Scripture was not communicated to me directly in English and limited by my vocabulary, so for the most part I am reading other people’s mail, with the writer trying to communicate to them. “Words” can have several meanings, so I cannot be sure, but I do have help.

First, I must make sure of my motive for wanting to understand a passage in the Bible. Wrong motives include: wanting to win an argument, wanting to support my conclusion, want to sell more books, for academic reasons, to past a test, for intellectual reasons, to show off, to kill time and others like these.

I am not going to learn everything, so I only have time to study what a truly need to know to grow spiritually and help (allow the Spirit work through me mentoring) others with their spiritual growth.

With these needed verses I try to grasp the context, context, context, context and context, I pray as hard and long as the need to know is important, I read it and other similar verses over many times, pray for wisdom and wait for inspiration, I fast when needed and then get with fellow disciples to discuss my ideas.

I commend you for your efforts.
Please, as you pray hard and long, think about what God has revealed to us, on what we ought to do, in order to understand.
Acts 8:26-31

26 Now an angel of the Lord spoke to Philip, saying, “Arise and go toward the south along the road which goes down from Jerusalem to Gaza.” This is desert. 27 So he arose and went. And behold, a man of Ethiopia, a eunuch of great authority under Candace the queen of the Ethiopians, who had charge of all her treasury, and had come to Jerusalem to worship, 28 was returning. And sitting in his chariot, he was reading Isaiah the prophet. 29 Then the Spirit said to Philip, “Go near and overtake this chariot.”​

30 So Philip ran to him, and heard him reading the prophet Isaiah, and said, “Do you understand what you are reading?”​

31 And he said, “How can I, unless someone guides me?” And he asked Philip to come up and sit with him.​

Who was Phillip? Philip was a minister of God - an evangelizer. Acts 21:8
Who sent Philip? God directed Philip by means of an angel, and his holy spirit. Acts 8:26, 29
Whom did God direct Philip to, and why? God directed his servant to an Ethiopian Eunuch, who wanted to understand what he was reading.
What did God know about the Eunuch, that we only know through his actions? God saw the Eunuch's heart, and knew that the Eunuch was humble. The Eunuch demonstrated this, by asking an evangelizer to guide him in the scriptures. Acts 8:30

What I learned from this, is that when Jesus left the earth, he did not abandon the work he started, as he promised. Matthew24:14; Matthew 28:19, 20; Acts 1:8
Very much involved with this work, due to its importance Luke 10:1, 2; 2 Timothy 4:1-5, God uses his ministers on earth, and searching the earth for honest hearts, directs Jesus disciples to those who are humble, and hungering and thirsting for truth.

Do you think Jesus has disciples on earth, who are evangelizing, and fulfilling the assignment to carry out this work to the end?
If so, why not pray to God, to understand his word, but instead of looking for inspiration, why not look for Jesus disciples?

Specifically: Luke 23:43 Jesus answered him, “Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise.

Consider: Luke 23:43 Jesus answered him, “Truly I tell you today, you will be with me in paradise.
Do you see a difference?

Where do you feel this “paradise” is?

Thanks for asking, but what I feel, is not important - either to God, or to me, and it should not be important to you or anyone else.
Too many people express what they feel about the scriptures as if that will win us Jesus' approval, but we want God's view, don't we? That's what's important.

I'll like to say what I said, again, because it's important, and I did not get any response to it.

Jesus did not go to heaven when he died.​

Jesus was in the earth for three days - Matthew 12:40. After he was raised up, he remained on the earth for about 40 days - Acts 1:3 After His suffering, He presented Himself to them with many convincing proofs that He was alive. He appeared to them over a span of forty days and spoke about the kingdom of God.​

So, that disproves any belief that the thief was in heaven with Jesus, the day he died.​

The thief was buried in the earth, just as all dead are. Psalm 146:4

His spirit departs, he returns to the earth; In that very day his thoughts perish.​

The Bible tells us what happens to the dead who are remembered by God.
John 5:28, 29

Do not be amazed at this, for the hour is coming when all who are in their graves will hear His voice and come out—those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment. (Also Acts 24:15)​

Jesus explains the resurrection of judgment, when he referred to the Ninivites, those in the land of Sodom and Gomorrah - Matthew 10:15; Matthew 11:24; Matthew 12:41, those of Tyre and Sidon - Matthew 11:22, the Queen of Sheba - Matthew 12:42

You can actually answer your question by using the scriptures.
Will the unrighteous be resurrected to heaven? Obviously no. They will be resurrected right here on earth.
Them, along with millions of righteous.

Why? God's purpose is for man to live right here on earth, in a paradise. That purpose has not changed. Psalm 37:11, 29, 34; Proverbs 2:21, 22; Isaiah 11:4-9; Isaiah 65:17-25; Revelation 21:1-5
Jesus quotes from Psalm 37:11, in his words at Matthew 5:5 - “Blessed are the meek, for they shall inherit the earth.
That's paradise, isn't it? It's not much different to the paradise Adam and Eve enjoyed.

Why then do people go to heaven as the Bible says?
That takes us back to Jesus words - "the Lord's prayer. Matthew 6:10

Your kingdom come, Your will be done, on earth as it is in heaven.​

Daniel 2:44 - In the days of those kings, the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that will never be destroyed, nor will it be left to another people. It will shatter all these kingdoms and bring them to an end, but will itself stand forever.

Isaiah 9:6, 7 - 6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given, and the government will be upon His shoulders. And He will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace. 7 Of the increase of His government and peace there will be no end. He will reign on the throne of David and over his kingdom, to establish and sustain it with justice and righteousness from that time and forevermore. The zeal of the LORD of Hosts will accomplish this.

God arranged for a kingdom - a heavenly government - to be ruled by his only begotten, who will rule over the earth, after destroying all other kingdoms, and restore the earth to the state God wills it - a paradise. Man's home, where sin and death will be gone forever. 1 Corinthians 15:24-28
Christ selected persons to rule with him, but Christ did not decide that every righteous person would rule. He chose a small number. Luke 12:32; Luke 22:28-30; Revelation 7:1-4; Revelation 14:1-4; Revelation 20:4, 6
These are the Saints.

They will rule with Christ, and be priests and judges with him, for the thousand years. Daniel 7:13, 14, 27; Revelation 5:9, 10
The scriptures are all there for you to check, since we wants God's view, and not our personal opinions.

The thief was mocking Jesus like everyone else an hour earlier, but the thief changed and was virtually confessing Jesus as the Messiah. The thief when that day with Jesus to Paradise.

Do you really believe people go to heaven by just saying they believe?
The scriptures do not say this. Luke 22:28-30
Those who go to heaven are tested. Hebrews 4:15
Those who go to heaven must be born again. John 3:3-5
The thief did not go to heaven.

Did Jesus go to heaven that day? No.
Do you say yes? Please show where jJesus went to heaven upon dying.
“Do not cling to Me,” Jesus said, “for I have not yet ascended to the Father. John 20:17
Jesus did not ascend to heaven until after 43 days, is that not so. Acts 1:2, 3

Are you taking the transfiguration as not literally happening, because it is not described as just a vision?

It is a vision.
What is a vision?
Were Elijah and Moses, actually there with Jesus? No.
Peter thought so, not realizing he was not seeing something in that world.

 

[bling]

I think it is significant that Peter refers to both heavens and earth, and then says the world of that time perished.
2 Peter 3:5 5 For this they willfully forget: that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of water and in the water, 6 by which the world that then existed perished, being flooded with water.


There are examples, in the scriptures of this figurative use.
Isaiah 34:5 For My sword is satiated [with blood] (ravah: to be saturated, drink one's fill) in heaven; Indeed, it will come down for judgment on Edom And on the people whom I have doomed for destruction.
Please also see Haggai 2:20-22, and Genesis 11:1

The heavens and earth are used in scripture figuratively to represent people.
There is also Revelations 20:11.

This would harmonize with the scriptures which says God established the earth like his sanctuary, forever.
It would also harmonize with God's promise, made at Genesis 9:21

Do you believe God will break that promise, and destroy the earth, and all the animals, along with it?

First off: You have to understand any promise God makes concerning His future actions, Jer. 18: 7 If at any time I announce that a nation or kingdom is to be uprooted, torn down and destroyed, 8 and if that nation I warned repents of its evil, then I will relent and not inflict on it the disaster I had planned. 9 And if at another time I announce that a nation or kingdom is to be built up and planted, 10 and if it does evil in my sight and does not obey me, then I will reconsider the good I had intended to do for it.

God’s promises concerning His actions are contingent on man’s actions.

Again, the flood was not figurative and that is the analogy.

So, were the physical heavens, and physical earth destroyed in Noah's day?
If you are using a comparison of a physical flood, to a physical fire, should you not also be using a physical heavens and physical earth, in both cases?
Why are you not doing so?

Why is the physical heavens and earth in Noah's day intact, and not destroyed?

Genesis 6:17 I am going to bring floodwaters on the earth to destroy all life under the heavens, every creature that has the breath of life in it. Everything on earth will perish.

God never promised to destroy the heavens with the flood. He was going to destroy all living things, but the earth originally came forth from the water and that happened again.

Laid bare, or found?
What does that expression - the earth and everything done in it will be found - mean?

Read further in Peter: 2 Peter 3: 11 Since everything will be destroyed in this way, what kind of people ought you to be? You ought to live holy and godly lives 12 as you look forward to the day of God and speed its coming. That day will bring about the destruction of the heavens by fire, and the elements will melt in the heat. 13 But in keeping with his promise we are looking forward to a new heaven and a new earth, where righteousness dwells.

It is not the same earth.

We can dismiss this, since parables are narratives illustrating a lesson (usually religious/moral) by comparison or analogy.
So, to use these as evidence of reality is to ignore the fact that it is an illustration with elements used to signify something else.
Just as you view Revelation, is the way illustrations are.

All Jesus’ parables could actually happen, so why is this an exception.

Revelation is not like a parable.

???
I'm not exactly sure what it is you are trying to say here, but it is your opinion, is it not?

Would you agree: to have a truly free will choice there has to be likely alternative?

Who told you that? A pastor?
If so, it might be better to consider what the scriptures say.

Could you therefore please answer my questions, since the scriptures are what we are discussing, as opposed to personal opinions, and desires, or wishes, based on what we have been told.

When do you believe Psalm 37:11, 29 will be fulfilled, considering that Jesus included that quote in the "Lord's prayer"?

“But the meek will inherit the land and enjoy peace and prosperity.”

and “The righteous will inherit the land and dwell in it forever.”

David is talking about the general group of people of Israel and not specific individuals. They will “inherit the land” and pass it down to righteous people, so the righteous can stay forever in the land, but the word “forever” does not have to mean eternally.

You also must take Jer. 18 into consideration.

You don't believe human will exist after death, but would that not mean that unrighteous people will go to heaven?
Or, perhaps you believe, unrighteous people will be resurrected, and then cast into hell, but would that not mean they are resurrected in flesh... or do you believe something else?
Does God's word fail? Isaiah 55:10, 11

Isaiah 55: 11 so is my word that goes out from my mouth:
It will not return to me empty,
but will accomplish what I desire
and achieve the purpose for which I sent it.

Yes, I believe after death, good and bad people have different spiritual bodies.

God is doing all He can to help willing individuals in fulfilling their earthly objective, but they can refuse or accept God’s help, so different outcomes can happen (this is the free will of humans).

Well it takes two to discuss.
If one offers their interpretation on revelation, but do not want to consider the actual scriptures in Revelation, it's not a discussion.

Do you not see lots of figurative language in Revelation require interpretation?

So, which indwelling spirit tells the truth?
The one that says what we agree with, or the one that disagrees with us?
That does not work.

We are not the authority to decide what, or who is a "good honest Greek translator". The scriptures are the authority on that, and the spirit in us, seem to be saying what we want to hear, rather than what God's word says.

That may be true for you, but the Spirit within me, does not always tell me what I want to hear.

I commend you for your efforts.
Please, as you pray hard and long, think about what God has revealed to us, on what we ought to do, in order to understand.
Acts 8:26-31

26 Now an angel of the Lord spoke to Philip, saying, “Arise and go toward the south along the road which goes down from Jerusalem to Gaza.” This is desert. 27 So he arose and went. And behold, a man of Ethiopia, a eunuch of great authority under Candace the queen of the Ethiopians, who had charge of all her treasury, and had come to Jerusalem to worship, 28 was returning. And sitting in his chariot, he was reading Isaiah the prophet. 29 Then the Spirit said to Philip, “Go near and overtake this chariot.”​

30 So Philip ran to him, and heard him reading the prophet Isaiah, and said, “Do you understand what you are reading?”​

31 And he said, “How can I, unless someone guides me?” And he asked Philip to come up and sit with him.​

Who was Phillip? Philip was a minister of God - an evangelizer. Acts 21:8
Who sent Philip? God directed Philip by means of an angel, and his holy spirit. Acts 8:26, 29
Whom did God direct Philip to, and why? God directed his servant to an Ethiopian Eunuch, who wanted to understand what he was reading.
What did God know about the Eunuch, that we only know through his actions? God saw the Eunuch's heart, and knew that the Eunuch was humble. The Eunuch demonstrated this, by asking an evangelizer to guide him in the scriptures. Acts 8:30

What I learned from this, is that when Jesus left the earth, he did not abandon the work he started, as he promised. Matthew24:14; Matthew 28:19, 20; Acts 1:8
Very much involved with this work, due to its importance Luke 10:1, 2; 2 Timothy 4:1-5, God uses his ministers on earth, and searching the earth for honest hearts, directs Jesus disciples to those who are humble, and hungering and thirsting for truth.

Do you think Jesus has disciples on earth, who are evangelizing, and fulfilling the assignment to carry out this work to the end?
If so, why not pray to God, to understand his word, but instead of looking for inspiration, why not look for Jesus disciples?

Jesus sent out the 12 and the seventy two looking for that person of peace in the village they went to. We need to pray hard to find these people of peace, for they can turn all those willing to accept Jesus in the village to Jesus. Finding them is not everything, since we must be prepared and willing to allow the Holy Spirit to work through us mentoring them.

What has been your experience when you found “People of Peace”?

Consider: Luke 23:43 Jesus answered him, “Truly I tell you today, you will be with me in paradise.
Do you see a difference?

Of the 61 in Biblegate different English translations of Luke 23:43, none abbreviate to suggest, Jesus is emphasizing the day Jesus is telling the thief is being told the promise, they all emphasize that the Thief will be with Jesus in paradise that very day. English speaking Americans might say: “today I tell you”, but there is no need for Jesus to waste His breathing adding “today” to mean this day I am talking with you. There was no punctuation back in the first century Greek, but phrases went together by gender for one thing. I did not get out my Greek Bible to figure it out, because no scholar is questioning the translation, can you find me one?

Thanks for asking, but what I feel, is not important - either to God, or to me, and it should not be important to you or anyone else.
Too many people express what they feel about the scriptures as if that will win us Jesus' approval, but we want God's view, don't we? That's what's important.

I'll like to say what I said, again, because it's important, and I did not get any response to it.

Jesus did not go to heaven when he died.​

Jesus was in the earth for three days - Matthew 12:40. After he was raised up, he remained on the earth for about 40 days - Acts 1:3 After His suffering, He presented Himself to them with many convincing proofs that He was alive. He appeared to them over a span of forty days and spoke about the kingdom of God.​

So, that disproves any belief that the thief was in heaven with Jesus, the day he died.​

The reason I asked about where you think this “paradise is”, is because you seem to equate it to heaven. It is a Spiritual place maybe similar to place Jesus described Lazarus went to after his death.

Once Jesus dies He takes on Spiritual abilities not shown prior to His death, which could include being in multiple locations at the same time. I have a hard time understanding why Jesus would have to personally stay in a cave for three days.

Christ’s physical body does not have to be next to you for you to be with Him.

The thief was buried in the earth, just as all dead are. Psalm 146:4

His spirit departs, he returns to the earth; In that very day his thoughts perish.​

Psalms 146: When their spirit departs, they return to the ground; on that very day their plans come to nothing.

The Spirit in them, so where does it go?

The Bible tells us what happens to the dead who are remembered by God.
John 5:28, 29

Do not be amazed at this, for the hour is coming when all who are in their graves will hear His voice and come out—those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment. (Also Acts 24:15)​

Jesus explains the resurrection of judgment, when he referred to the Ninivites, those in the land of Sodom and Gomorrah - Matthew 10:15; Matthew 11:24; Matthew 12:41, those of Tyre and Sidon - Matthew 11:22, the Queen of Sheba - Matthew 12:42

You can actually answer your question by using the scriptures.
Will the unrighteous be resurrected to heaven? Obviously no. They will be resurrected right here on earth.
Them, along with millions of righteous.

Why? God's purpose is for man to live right here on earth, in a paradise. That purpose has not changed. Psalm 37:11, 29, 34; Proverbs 2:21, 22; Isaiah 11:4-9; Isaiah 65:17-25; Revelation 21:1-5
Jesus quotes from Psalm 37:11, in his words at Matthew 5:5 - “Blessed are the meek, for they shall inherit the earth.


Daniel 2:44 - In the days of those kings, the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that will never be destroyed, nor will it be left to another people. It will shatter all these kingdoms and bring them to an end, but will itself stand forever.

Isaiah 9:6, 7 - 6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given, and the government will be upon His shoulders. And He will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace. 7 Of the increase of His government and peace there will be no end. He will reign on the throne of David and over his kingdom, to establish and sustain it with justice and righteousness from that time and forevermore. The zeal of the LORD of Hosts will accomplish this.

God arranged for a kingdom - a heavenly government - to be ruled by his only begotten, who will rule over the earth, after destroying all other kingdoms, and restore the earth to the state God wills it - a paradise. Man's home, where sin and death will be gone forever. 1 Corinthians 15:24-28
Christ selected persons to rule with him, but Christ did not decide that every righteous person would rule. He chose a small number. Luke 12:32; Luke 22:28-30; Revelation 7:1-4; Revelation 14:1-4; Revelation 20:4, 6
These are the Saints.

They will rule with Christ, and be priests and judges with him, for the thousand years. Daniel 7:13, 14, 27; Revelation 5:9, 10
The scriptures are all there for you to check, since we wants God's view, and not our personal opinions.

A lot of your scriptures are drawn from very poetic and figurative verses not to be taken literally.

What happens after the 1000 years or is that figurative?

What happens at the judgement?

Can I still live in a cardboard box?

Do you really believe people go to heaven by just saying they believe?
The scriptures do not say this. Luke 22:28-30
Those who go to heaven are tested. Hebrews 4:15
Those who go to heaven must be born again. John 3:3-5
The thief did not go to heaven.

Did Jesus go to heaven that day? No.
Do you say yes? Please show where jJesus went to heaven upon dying.
“Do not cling to Me,” Jesus said, “for I have not yet ascended to the Father. John 20:17
Jesus did not ascend to heaven until after 43 days, is that not so. Acts 1:2, 3

Our final resting place in heaven seems to come after the Judgment, so we or just some wait in paradise.

It is a vision.
What is a vision?
Were Elijah and Moses, actually there with Jesus? No.
Peter thought so, not realizing he was not seeing something in that world.

Where do you find in scripture it being described as a vision or is this something you have to believe?

 

[jacks]

I like to commend you both (bling and CoreyD) on your discussion. It is not a subject that I've given much thought to, but have found both of your arguments interesting and instructive. What has particularly impressed me, is that you have both kept it civil and to the point. Too often these types of discussions erode into arguments and personal attacks. I always find it distressing, when Christians who disagree forget some of the most important of our Lord's commands and begin to attack each other. As far as the subject at hand, whatever turns out to be God's plan for the planet earth, we can be assured it is what is best for us.

 

[kh4071k]

It will be perfect.

 

[CoreyD]

First off: You have to understand any promise God makes concerning His future actions, Jer. 18: 7 If at any time I announce that a nation or kingdom is to be uprooted, torn down and destroyed, 8 and if that nation I warned repents of its evil, then I will relent and not inflict on it the disaster I had planned. 9 And if at another time I announce that a nation or kingdom is to be built up and planted, 10 and if it does evil in my sight and does not obey me, then I will reconsider the good I had intended to do for it.

Did you mean to say, "any promise God makes concerns His future actions"?
Would you agree that all God's promises from the fall of man, concerns his former purpose, and bringing that to realization?

For example, the purpose for the promised seed was as a result of Adam's sin Genesis 3:15, and the promise to Abraham was to fulfill God's purpose for mankind Genesis 22:18. Would you agree?

God's purpose never involved death of mankind. Hence the Messiah was a solution that God put in place, to redeem mankind 1 John 2:2; 1 John 4:10, remove and end death permanently 1 Corinthians 15:24-28; Revelation 20:14; Revelation 21:4, 5, break up Satan's works, and destroy him 1 John 3:8; Hebrews 2:14, restore the earth to its original state Matthew 6:10; Ephesians 1:10, vindicate his father's name and sovereignty Matthew 6:9; Philippians 2:9-11.

All of God's actions, are to fulfill his original purpose.
Every action prior to that - namely creation, was for his purpose. The seventh day rest, was to see that purpose become a reality.
By the end of Jesus' 1,000 year reign, it will come to reality.

God’s promises concerning His actions are contingent on man’s actions.

I'm not sure exactly whatyou mean by that. Can you elaborate please?

God's actions involves the saving of righteous mankind, because this is his will. 1 Timothy 2:3, 4
However, God's bringing his purpose realization, is not dependent on anything man does, but is dependent on God's himself and what God wills.
Isaiah 14:21
The LORD of Hosts has purposed, and who can thwart Him? His hand is outstretched, so who can turn it back?

Isaiah 43:13
“Even from eternity I am He, And there is no one who can rescue from My hand; I act, and who can revoke or reverse it?”

God's actions are in behalf of his great name. 1 Samuel 12:22
Remember what God told Moses?
“I have seen this people, and they are indeed a stiff-necked people. Now leave Me alone, so that My anger may burn against them and consume them. Then I will make you into a great nation.” Exodus 32:9, 10

God chooses those whom he will bless Genesis 12:1-3, but his actions do not depend on what man does... unless you mean that God gives you what you deserves... as he promised. Deuteronomy 30:19, 20

Again, the flood was not figurative and that is the analogy.

This is the claim. We want the evidence.
The flood was literal, but that is not the subject. The subject is the destruction of ungodly men - the world.
In Noah's day, what was destroyed - the physical earth and the physical heavens, or the people?
The question now is, in our day, what will be destroyed - the physical earth and the physical heavens, or the people?

That is the subject. Not what is used.
Even if God uses physical fire, it does not mean the literal heavens and earth will be incinerated.
Do you agree with that?

I'd be really appreciative if you could address what I say though.
It would really demonstrate that we are talking with each other.
For example, if you said something, and asked a question, and I went, "This and that is so. That is the case", how would you feel? Would I not come over, as stopping my ears and just claiming what I want to believe?

So, I said...

There are examples, in the scriptures of this figurative use.​

Isaiah 34:5 For My sword is satiated [with blood] (ravah: to be saturated, drink one's fill) in heaven; Indeed, it will come down for judgment on Edom And on the people whom I have doomed for destruction.​

Please also see Haggai 2:20-22, and Genesis 11:1​

​

The heavens and earth are used in scripture figuratively to represent people.​

There is also Revelations 20:11.​

​

This would harmonize with the scriptures which says God established the earth like his sanctuary, forever.​

It would also harmonize with God's promise, made at Genesis 9:21​

​

Do you believe God will break that promise, and destroy the earth, and all the animals, along with it?​

I would like you please to specifically answer the question, and tell me if you agree with the fact that heavens and earth, are used figuratively in the scriptures I referenced.
Can you do that please? I'd really appreciate it. Thanks.

Genesis 6:17 I am going to bring floodwaters on the earth to destroy all life under the heavens, every creature that has the breath of life in it. Everything on earth will perish.

God never promised to destroy the heavens with the flood. He was going to destroy all living things, but the earth originally came forth from the water and that happened again.

I think we both agree that God destroyed every living thing outside the ark, and I am glad to know that you believe this, since there are some who identify as christian that claim the flood was not all over the earth.

That's not what we are discussing though.
Did God destroy the planet/physical earth?
Can you answer, please?

I asked specific questions, which are simple, and require specific answers.
So, were the physical heavens, and physical earth destroyed in Noah's day?
If you are using a comparison of a physical flood, to a physical fire, should you not also be using a physical heavens and physical earth, in both cases?
Why are you not doing so?

Why is the physical heavens and earth in Noah's day intact, and not destroyed?

Can you be specific, in answering please, so that we can really have a coherent discussion. We don;t want to just bounce off of each other.
I'm sure you have seen people argue back and forth, page after page, until the thread is hundreds of pages long, and they still haven't reached any conclusion.
I don't want that to be the case here. We can reach a clear conclusion, from the scriptures.
It just requires knowing what we can agree on.
Once we know that, we can move forward.
I hope that sounds reasonable to you.

Read further in Peter: 2 Peter 3: 11 Since everything will be destroyed in this way, what kind of people ought you to be? You ought to live holy and godly lives 12 as you look forward to the day of God and speed its coming. That day will bring about the destruction of the heavens by fire, and the elements will melt in the heat. 13 But in keeping with his promise we are looking forward to a new heaven and a new earth, where righteousness dwells.

It is not the same earth.

So, you believe God will destroy the earth he created to be inhabited, and create a whole brand new earth.
I have some more questions for you.
Please... Please answer.

God creates heavens and earth, which he says is very good, then because of man's sin, decides that he must destroy these, and start over from scratch. Why? What is wrong with the heavens and earth, that God has to incinerate them, and start creation all over again?
Does that say much for God's reputation, as the almighty, who actually states...
The LORD of Hosts has purposed, and who can thwart Him? His hand is outstretched, so who can turn it back?
Does doing that, keep with God's promise, as stated at Genesis 8:21?
Do you disagree that the statements God made about the earth lasting forever, as reference in the OP, have anything to do with the earth lasting forever? Is the reason for this based on this one scripture in 2 Peter 3?

I have more questions, but duty calls.
I have a little work to do, so I will continue to address your post later.
Later.

 

[CoreyD]

I like to commend you both (bling and CoreyD) on your discussion. It is not a subject that I've given much thought to, but have found both of your arguments interesting and instructive. What has particularly impressed me, is that you have both kept it civil and to the point. Too often these types of discussions erode into arguments and personal attacks.

Thanks. It's not always easy, I admit, since it requires quite a lot of patience at times, but I try to remind myself to be patient, and as gentle as possible... although there are times when firmness is called for.

I always find it distressing, when Christians who disagree forget some of the most important of our Lord's commands and begin to attack each other.

I can relate to how you feel.

As far as the subject at hand, whatever turns out to be God's plan for the planet earth, we can be assured it is what is best for us.

True.
I'll get back to you on this, when I have the time.
Right now, I have to run.

Thanks, again.

 

[CoreyD]

It is not the same earth.

If it's not the same earth, then God's purpose for the earth failed.
That however, cannot happen, because God does not fail. Isaiah 55:10, 11

All Jesus’ parables could actually happen, so why is this an exception.

There are a few parables that are not reality, but used to signify something.
The ten virgins - Matthew 25:1-12
The slaves with the talents - Matthew 25:14-30
The wedding feast - Matthew 22:1-14
There is also Luke 13:24-30

The reason for the illustration, is not to indicate that something does happen, or can happen, but to signify something.
For example, the use of Gehenna, is an illustration, and Jesus used it along with a gruesome, and extreme thought - plucking out one's eye, and cutting off one's hand. Matthew 5:29, 30

He used another illustration that was similar.
Matthew 18:6
But if anyone causes one of these little ones who believe in Me to stumble, it would be better for him to have a large millstone hung around his neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea.

Consider another extreme illustration, that cannot actually happen.
Luke 18:24, 25
Seeing the man’s sadness, Jesus said, “How hard it is for the rich to enter the kingdom of God!
Indeed, it is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God.”

Jesus used each illustration, according to the audience.

Revelation is not like a parable.

Allegory is defined as:

• noun The representation of abstract ideas or principles by characters, figures, or events in narrative, dramatic, or pictorial form.
• noun A story, picture, or play employing such representation. John Bunyan's Pilgrim's Progress and Herman Melville's Moby-Dick are allegories.
• noun A symbolic representation.

Does a parable contain ...

• the representation of abstract ideas or principles by characters, figures, or events in narrative, dramatic, or pictorial form?
• a story, picture...?
• a symbolic representation?

Does the book of revelation contain...

• the representation of abstract ideas or principles by characters, figures, or events in narrative, dramatic, or pictorial form?
• a picture...?
• a symbolic representation?

If your answer is yes, then we agree.
If your answer is no, then please explain.

Would you agree: to have a truly free will choice there has to be likely alternative?

Every choice has options, but I don't understand how that sheds light on, or validates the statement:
This earth and the way it is, provides the only logical place for the few willing individual to have a place to fulfill their earthly object where heave or some other type “earth” cannot provide totally free will choices with likely alternatives.

Something I missed here.
How does 2 Peter 3:11 explain what that expression - the earth and everything done in it will be found - mean?

“But the meek will inherit the land and enjoy peace and prosperity.”

and “The righteous will inherit the land and dwell in it forever.”

David is talking about the general group of people of Israel and not specific individuals. They will “inherit the land” and pass it down to righteous people, so the righteous can stay forever in the land, but the word “forever” does not have to mean eternally.

Can you tell me please... why do you choose to use "land" here, and not "earth"?
erets: earth, land

...and Matthew 5:5? Sorry for my referring to the Lord's prayer. That should have been the sermon on the Mount.
When will that be fulfilled?
Why does Jesus quote Psalm 37:11, if that is not to be a future fulfillment?
I'm still interested in the Lord's prayer, though. Why did jesus teach his followers to pray for God's kingdom to come, and God's will to de done on earth, as it is in heaven?

You also must take Jer. 18 into consideration.

Please explain.

Isaiah 55: 11 so is my word that goes out from my mouth:
It will not return to me empty,
but will accomplish what I desire
and achieve the purpose for which I sent it.

Yes, I believe after death, good and bad people have different spiritual bodies.

Why do you believe that?
My question was concerning the earth, though. Does God's word fail in regard to the earth, and it being created by God to be inhabited, forever? Isaiah 55:10, 11

God is doing all He can to help willing individuals in fulfilling their earthly objective, but they can refuse or accept God’s help, so different outcomes can happen (this is the free will of humans).

Yes, the Bible says that God is aiding righteous ones. What is man's earthly objective, that God wants man to fulfill?
I am thinking of several scriptures.

• Genesis 22:18 - through your offspring all nations of the earth will be blessed.
• Luke 2 14 - “Glory to God in the highest, and on earth peace among those with whom he is pleased!”
• Daniel 7:14 - And He was given dominion, glory, and kingship, that the people of every nation and language should serve Him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away, and His kingdom is one that will never be destroyed.
• Isaiah 9:6, 7 - For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given, and the government will be upon His shoulders. And He will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace. Of the increase of His government and peace there will be no end. He will reign on the throne of David and over his kingdom, to establish and sustain it with justice and righteousness from that time and forevermore. The zeal of the LORD of Hosts will accomplish this. Luke 1:31-33

Do you not see lots of figurative language in Revelation require interpretation?

That's an interesting question.
How different is it to the millions of different interpretations that people are giving for the scriptures, in the other books?
Do you know that quite a number of people - like 99.9%, of those on these forums believe that every person has their interpretation of all the scriptures... including the book of Revelation?

Should we dismiss Revelation, then, or should we include it, since it's very much a part of the inspired word, and extremely important. Revelation 1:3; Revelation 22:7

That may be true for you, but the Spirit within me, does not always tell me what I want to hear.

Jesus sent out the 12 and the seventy two looking for that person of peace in the village they went to. We need to pray hard to find these people of peace, for they can turn all those willing to accept Jesus in the village to Jesus. Finding them is not everything, since we must be prepared and willing to allow the Holy Spirit to work through us mentoring them.

What has been your experience when you found “People of Peace”?

My experience has been the same as those of my brothers collectively.
Thousands of those "people of peace" are responding, and become disciple... if not in a short while, in the long run, and there is hope for those who have not yet become a disciple. The potential is great.
What about you?

Please forgive my insistence, but my questions are designed to get your answer, so that we make progress, beyond our personal feelings.
So, I hope I am not wearing you out.
Do you think Jesus has disciples on earth, who are evangelizing, and fulfilling the assignment to carry out this work to the end?

Of the 61 in Biblegate different English translations of Luke 23:43, none abbreviate to suggest, Jesus is emphasizing the day Jesus is telling the thief is being told the promise, they all emphasize that the Thief will be with Jesus in paradise that very day. English speaking Americans might say: “today I tell you”, but there is no need for Jesus to waste His breathing adding “today” to mean this day I am talking with you. There was no punctuation back in the first century Greek, but phrases went together by gender for one thing. I did not get out my Greek Bible to figure it out, because no scholar is questioning the translation, can you find me one?

I'm so happy you asked.
THE SIGNIFICANCE OF A COMMA: AN ANALYSIS OF LUKE 23:43
The whole problem hangs on a single comma, most likely absent from Luke’s original manuscript. With the comma placed before “today” (sēmeron), as most translations do, the adverb would refer to the following verb (“to be”), and the text would have the traditional meaning: “Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in Paradise.”1 But if placed after “today,” then the adverb would modify the preceding verb (“to tell”), and Jesus’ words would have an entirely different connotation: “Truly I tell you today, you will be with me in Paradise.” Though sometimes considered pleonastic and senseless,2 the alternative reading could be possible, especially if all the evidence - textual, linguistic, and scriptural - is accounted for.

What does the evidence teach us about the proper meaning of that text?

TEXTUAL EVIDENCE
...
Written at the beginning of the third century, P75 is our oldest copy of Luke and it has no point either before or after ["today"] sēmeron in our passage, though some punctuation can be found here and there.

Punctuation marks, therefore, are not an integral part of the canonical text. In fact, they reveal only how the text was read and understood by those who copied it. So, when Luke 23:43 was punctuated, the comma was placed before ["today"] sēmeron not for grammatical reasons, but for the theological conviction prevailing at the time that the final reward of the faithful who die comes immediately after death. Sometimes the scribes also rephrased the text in order to make its meaning supposedly clearer. This is how the word that (hoti) became part of Jesus’ statement. “That” was not in the original but was added before the adverb (“Truly I tell you that today . . .”) under the assumption that this is what Jesus meant; this addition appears in a number of medieval Greek manuscripts as well as in several ancient and modern translations.

We find it interesting, however, that the fourth-century Codex Vaticanus, “one of the most valuable of all the manuscripts of the Greek Bible”3and a close relative of P75 textually speaking,4 has a point on the line right after, not before, the adverb ["today"] sēmeron.

Yet we find it difficult to know whether this point goes back to the original scribe or was added at a later time, which seems more probable.5 At any rate, Codex Vaticanus has a point after sēmeron, and the manuscript shows no attempt to have it removed or corrected by any of its readers.

Notwithstanding, even if this evidence is inconclusive, there is no question that important segments in the Christian church read the adverb “today” with the preceding verb (“to tell”). Another example is the Greek minuscule manuscript 339, from the thirteenth century, that not only has a point after sēmeron but also has left enough space before the next word so as to make the thesis of an accident virtually impossible. In addition, there are several other medieval punctuated manuscripts that simply leave this passage as it is, without any punctuation mark,6 though the rule was to place a point or comma before the adverb. The alternative reading (“Truly I tell you today . . .”) is also found in the Curetonian Syriac, one of the earliest translations of the NT whose text goes back to the second century. Among the church writers, this reading was also attested by Ephraem the Syrian, of the fourth century,7 as well as Cassian and Hesychius, of the fifth century. Though Cassian and Hesychius themselves preferred to link “today” with the verb “to be,” they explicitly refer to those who used to read the adverb with the verb “to tell” as heretics.8

None of this evidence establishes Luke’s original punctuation or demonstrates that the alternative reading was predominant in ancient and medieval Christianity; it was not.10 But together they do show that the attempt to link the adverb “today” with the preceding verb did have notable supporters in Christian history, thus allowing the possibility that this was, in fact, what Luke meant.

You can read the LINGUISTIC EVIDENCE and SCRIPTURAL EVIDENCE.
The scriptural evidence may vary to some degree from what I have presented.

there is no need for Jesus to waste His breathing adding “today” to mean this day I am talking with you.

I hope the LINGUISTIC EVIDENCE clears that up.

The translations do not matter, and it's important we take note that theology and doctrine guide translators for the most part, and the ideas existed as far back as the second century CE.

 

[CoreyD]

The reason I asked about where you think this “paradise is”, is because you seem to equate it to heaven. It is a Spiritual place maybe similar to place Jesus described Lazarus went to after his death.

I have heard this opinion before, but do you have any scriptures to support that idea? Or, is it something you just believe?

God placed Adam and Eve, in a garden - a paradise, of Eden - pleasure/ delight.
Hitchcock's Bible Names Dictionary - Eden
pleasure; delight

Paradise - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

In the Septuagint (3rd–1st centuries BCE), Greek παράδεισος parádeisos was used to translate both Hebrew פרדס pardes and Hebrew גן gan, "garden" (e.g. (Genesis 2:8, Ezekiel 28:13): it is from this usage that the use of "paradise" to refer to the Garden of Eden derives. The same usage also appears in Arabic and in the Quran as firdaws فردوس.

Once Jesus dies He takes on Spiritual abilities not shown prior to His death, which could include being in multiple locations at the same time. I have a hard time understanding why Jesus would have to personally stay in a cave for three days.

Please show me where in the scripture you find that Jesus "takes on Spiritual abilities not shown prior to His death, which could include being in multiple locations at the same time".

Christ’s physical body does not have to be next to you for you to be with Him.

Nor does God have to be on earth to be with men. that's true.
So, you agree then that the thief did not go to heaven then? Good, because that's what we wanted to establish.

That's nice. That's what I was saying. We got somewhere, because we are considering the scriptures, and questions lead to the correct answer.

Psalms 146: When their spirit departs, they return to the ground; on that very day their plans come to nothing.

These translations are interesting. I can't blame you for their choice of words.
I'd check the original language just to be sure though.
eshtonah or eshton: thought

The Spirit in them, so where does it go?

The Bible says "the dust returns to the ground from which it came and the spirit returns to God who gave it." Ecclesiastes 12:7

Does that mean man has a living spirit that does space travel?
It simply means that it rests with God who gives the spirit, to give it again, upon resurrection. Psalm 104:29, 30
You hide Your face, they are dismayed; You take away their spirit, they expire And return to their dust.
You send forth Your Spirit, they are created; And You renew the face of the ground.

A lot of your scriptures are drawn from very poetic and figurative verses not to be taken literally.

Those "poetic and figurative verses not to be taken literally", are actually the same scriptures Jesus quoted from and applied to the Messiah and the fulfillment of his work. Luke 24:44

And He said unto to them, "These are my words, which I spoke to you being still with you, that all things having been written concerning Me in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms, it behooves to be fulfilled."​

Are you saying that these scriptures are not tangible?

What happens after the 1000 years or is that figurative?

I actually have a thread discussing the 1,000 year judgment, where I answer that question, in this post. Thanks for asking.

What happens at the judgement?

Please see posts 29, 30, and 31.
Then take a look at post 5, which starts from the events leading up to the 1,000 year rule.

Can I still live in a cardboard box?

It's here on earth that God planted trees, with seed, and once man takes care of the earth, which will happen, when God makes this earth a paradise of delight, again, you can live in as much cardboard boxes, as you want.
If God asks you what is wrong with you, that you are cutting down the trees, then you know you have gone too far.

Our final resting place in heaven seems to come after the Judgment, so we or just some wait in paradise.

I have not read that heaven is a resting place.
I know that our resting place is the grave, and Job and others were aware of this.
Even Jesus said that Lazarus had gone to rest, when he died.

Heaven is not made for man.
It is God's sanctuary. The heaven, even the heavens, are the LORD’s; But the earth He has given to the children of men. Psalm 115:16
The earth is given to man as his home.

Did you consider the scriptures on this?
I really would like to hear your response, please.
The scriptures need to be considered, lest, our ideas become the conclusions we hold on to , and run with.
Please tell me what you find not to be true, and why.

Why then do people go to heaven as the Bible says?
That takes us back to Jesus words - "the Lord's prayer. Matthew 6:10
Your kingdom come, Your will be done, on earth as it is in heaven.

Daniel 2:44 - In the days of those kings, the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that will never be destroyed, nor will it be left to another people. It will shatter all these kingdoms and bring them to an end, but will itself stand forever.

Isaiah 9:6, 7 - 6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given, and the government will be upon His shoulders. And He will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace. 7 Of the increase of His government and peace there will be no end. He will reign on the throne of David and over his kingdom, to establish and sustain it with justice and righteousness from that time and forevermore. The zeal of the LORD of Hosts will accomplish this.

God arranged for a kingdom - a heavenly government - to be ruled by his only begotten, who will rule over the earth, after destroying all other kingdoms, and restore the earth to the state God wills it - a paradise. Man's home, where sin and death will be gone forever. 1 Corinthians 15:24-28
Christ selected persons to rule with him, but Christ did not decide that every righteous person would rule. He chose a small number. Luke 12:32; Luke 22:28-30; Revelation 7:1-4; Revelation 14:1-4; Revelation 20:4, 6
These are the Saints.

They will rule with Christ, and be priests and judges with him, for the thousand years. Daniel 7:13, 14, 27; Revelation 5:9, 10
The scriptures are all there for you to check, since we wants God's view, and not our personal opinions.

Where do you find in scripture it being described as a vision or is this something you have to believe?

I am referencing the scriptures every time.
Can I ask, are you checking the scriptures I reference, to see what the Bible says, and if they agree with what I say?
Can I encourage you to do so, please.
Here it is again. Matthew 17:9

That was a lot to respond to. I have to go rest up a bit.
Looking forward to hearing you.

 

[CoreyD]

I like to commend you both (bling and CoreyD) on your discussion. It is not a subject that I've given much thought to, but have found both of your arguments interesting and instructive. What has particularly impressed me, is that you have both kept it civil and to the point. Too often these types of discussions erode into arguments and personal attacks. I always find it distressing, when Christians who disagree forget some of the most important of our Lord's commands and begin to attack each other. As far as the subject at hand, whatever turns out to be God's plan for the planet earth, we can be assured it is what is best for us.

Hi again jacks.
I wanted to get back to you on your last statement, because, from my reading of scripture, it is important to know before the end comes, what God's purpose for the earth is.
In other words, if we are not sure, it means we don't know what the will of God is - which God wants us to know 1 Timothy 2:3, 4, and we are not obeying Jesus' command, nor are we a part of his mission Matthew 24:14.

For example, when we pray as jesus taught his disciples... Your kingdom come. Your will be done On earth as it is in heaven. (Matthew 6:10), how meaningful is that prayer, if we do not know what God's will, or purpose ("plan") is for the earth?

 

[bling]

Did you mean to say, "any promise God makes concerns His future actions"?

No, Jerimiah is pointing out that God’s promises concerning God’s future actions are contingent on man’s future actions. There is an extremely logical reason why God must state His future actions this way and shows He does know the future. (but that is off subject.)

Would you agree that all God's promises from the fall of man, concerns his former purpose, and bringing that to realization?

For example, the purpose for the promised seed was as a result of Adam's sin Genesis 3:15, and the promise to Abraham was to fulfill God's purpose for mankind Genesis 22:18. Would you agree?

God's purpose never involved death of mankind. Hence the Messiah was a solution that God put in place, to redeem mankind 1 John 2:2; 1 John 4:10, remove and end death permanently 1 Corinthians 15:24-28; Revelation 20:14; Revelation 21:4, 5, break up Satan's works, and destroy him 1 John 3:8; Hebrews 2:14, restore the earth to its original state Matthew 6:10; Ephesians 1:10, vindicate his father's name and sovereignty Matthew 6:9; Philippians 2:9-11.

All of God's actions, are to fulfill his original purpose.
Every action prior to that - namely creation, was for his purpose. The seventh day rest, was to see that purpose become a reality.
By the end of Jesus' 1,000 year reign, it will come to reality.

You bring up a lot of different Doctrines here, so we may have to come back to it and You can help me with further questions to know what to address.

• You talk about “God’s former purpose”, but nothing has changed, so what was that “purpose” you feel changed?
• Do you feel God was surprised by man sinning?
• God does not like sin, but does God not allow humans to sin? Could God have kept people from sinning? Does sin not have a purpose that allows humans to more easily fulfill their earthly objective?
• Are you suggesting God and we would like to go back to a Garden type Scenario, since with that scenario two sinless people sinned? What do we have that they did not have?
• Are we as Christians in this messed up world not better off than Adam and Eve were prior to sinning?
• Would you prefer to be in a place where your eternal close relation with God was dependent on your personal ability to not sin or in a place where your eternal close relationship with God is dependent on your just accepting God’s Love?
• Would you prefer to be a gardener or be the conduit through which God’s spirit works mentoring others?
• Death was inevitable and has purpose for some. I think I would not have made the choice to accept God’s help/charity/forgiveness/mercy/Love and give up the pursuit of sinful pleasures if I did not believe in death, but how about yourself?
• “Gen. 22: 18 and through your offspring all nations on earth will be blessed, because you have obeyed me.” Jesus fulfilled that, since Abraham’s seed was always to prepare the way for Christ.
• All of God’s actions, I see, are helping willing humans in their fulfillment of their earthly objective.

I'm not sure exactly whatyou mean by that. Can you elaborate please?

Jerimiah says it plainly: If at any time I announce (promise) that a nation or kingdom is to be uprooted, torn down and destroyed, 8 and if (contingent) that nation I warned repents of its evil, then I will relent and not inflict on it the disaster I had planned.

God's actions involves the saving of righteous mankind, because this is his will. 1 Timothy 2:3, 4
However, God's bringing his purpose realization, is not dependent on anything man does, but is dependent on God's himself and what God wills.
Isaiah 14:21
The LORD of Hosts has purposed, and who can thwart Him? His hand is outstretched, so who can turn it back?

Isaiah 43:13
“Even from eternity I am He, And there is no one who can rescue from My hand; I act, and who can revoke or reverse it?”

God's actions are in behalf of his great name. 1 Samuel 12:22
Remember what God told Moses?
“I have seen this people, and they are indeed a stiff-necked people. Now leave Me alone, so that My anger may burn against them and consume them. Then I will make you into a great nation.” Exodus 32:9, 10

God chooses those whom he will bless Genesis 12:1-3, but his actions do not depend on what man does... unless you mean that God gives you what you deserves... as he promised. Deuteronomy 30:19, 20

1 Tim. 2: 3 This is good, and pleases God our Savior, 4 who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth.

God wants all to accept His Love, but this is not a shotgun wedding with God holding the shotgun. Man has the free will choice to accept or reject God’s Love.

This is the claim. We want the evidence.
The flood was literal, but that is not the subject. The subject is the destruction of ungodly men - the world.
In Noah's day, what was destroyed - the physical earth and the physical heavens, or the people?
The question now is, in our day, what will be destroyed - the physical earth and the physical heavens, or the people?

That is the subject. Not what is used.
Even if God uses physical fire, it does not mean the literal heavens and earth will be incinerated.
Do you agree with that?

I'd be really appreciative if you could address what I say though.
It would really demonstrate that we are talking with each other.
For example, if you said something, and asked a question, and I went, "This and that is so. That is the case", how would you feel? Would I not come over, as stopping my ears and just claiming what I want to believe?

So, I said...

There are examples, in the scriptures of this figurative use.​

Isaiah 34:5 For My sword is satiated [with blood] (ravah: to be saturated, drink one's fill) in heaven; Indeed, it will come down for judgment on Edom And on the people whom I have doomed for destruction.​

Please also see Haggai 2:20-22, and Genesis 11:1​

​

The heavens and earth are used in scripture figuratively to represent people.​

There is also Revelations 20:11.​

​

This would harmonize with the scriptures which says God established the earth like his sanctuary, forever.​

It would also harmonize with God's promise, made at Genesis 9:21​

​

Do you believe God will break that promise, and destroy the earth, and all the animals, along with it?​

I would like you please to specifically answer the question, and tell me if you agree with the fact that heavens and earth, are used figuratively in the scriptures I referenced.
Can you do that please? I'd really appreciate it. Thanks.

Is your logic for calling the destruction of the earth and heavens with fire only the author being figurative, based on your assumption earth will be occupied for 1000 years after judgement, so that means it cannot be destroyed?

As far as I am concerned this earth and heavens around it, can stick around, but see no reason for humans to come back to earth and live here. Scientifically earth is a miracle and should be gone by now, which to the scientist just means we have been very lucky.

I very much see the logic and wisdom behind the judgment and heaven and hell, but nothing behind the 1000 years reign.

I think we both agree that God destroyed every living thing outside the ark, and I am glad to know that you believe this, since there are some who identify as christian that claim the flood was not all over the earth.

That's not what we are discussing though.
Did God destroy the planet/physical earth?
Can you answer, please?

I asked specific questions, which are simple, and require specific answers.
So, were the physical heavens, and physical earth destroyed in Noah's day?
If you are using a comparison of a physical flood, to a physical fire, should you not also be using a physical heavens and physical earth, in both cases?
Why are you not doing so?

Why is the physical heavens and earth in Noah's day intact, and not destroyed?

Can you be specific, in answering please, so that we can really have a coherent discussion. We don;t want to just bounce off of each other.
I'm sure you have seen people argue back and forth, page after page, until the thread is hundreds of pages long, and they still haven't reached any conclusion.
I don't want that to be the case here. We can reach a clear conclusion, from the scriptures.
It just requires knowing what we can agree on.
Once we know that, we can move forward.
I hope that sounds reasonable to you.

God never promised to destroy the physical heavens with water, so it is only the earth we are talking about with the flood.

It is a cleansing water baptism.

Do we agree that the flood was not figurative?

If the flood was not figurative why does the fire have to be figurative?

The fire is further described as destroying the elements, so what is the figurative meaning to that?

Like I said: If a torched earth, sky and elements remain for someone to live with, it sounds more like hell than heaven to me.

So, you believe God will destroy the earth he created to be inhabited, and create a whole brand new earth.

I think the “New Earth” is in the Spiritual realm, streets of gold.

I have some more questions for you.
Please... Please answer.

God creates heavens and earth, which he says is very good, then because of man's sin, decides that he must destroy these, and start over from scratch. Why? What is wrong with the heavens and earth, that God has to incinerate them, and start creation all over again?
Does that say much for God's reputation, as the almighty, who actually states...
The LORD of Hosts has purposed, and who can thwart Him? His hand is outstretched, so who can turn it back?
Does doing that, keep with God's promise, as stated at Genesis 8:21?
Do you disagree that the statements God made about the earth lasting forever, as reference in the OP, have anything to do with the earth lasting forever? Is the reason for this based on this one scripture in 2 Peter 3?

Gen. 8: 21 The Lord smelled the pleasing aroma and said in his heart: “Never again will I curse the ground because of humans, even though[a] every inclination of the human heart is evil from childhood. And never again will I destroy all living creatures, as I have done.

Gen. 9: 15 I will remember my covenant between me and you and all living creatures of every kind. Never again will the waters become a flood to destroy all life. 16 Whenever the rainbow appears in the clouds, I will see it and remember the everlasting covenant between God and all living creatures of every kind on the earth.”

Gen. 9: 15 gives further specific detail to God’s description of “as I have done” = “waters become a flood to destroy all life”.

Again, God’s promises are contingent Jer. 18.



God describes Adam and Eve as being “Very Good”, but is that the same as “perfect” like Christ is “Perfect”?

“Very Good” can mean, as good as a being can be made, but they are made beings and lack something at their creation Christ, a not made being, had.

This earth has a purpose and was not meant to have the same purpose as heaven or anywhere else.

This earth outside the Garden is the very best place for willing individuals to fulfill their earthly objective. The Garden prior to sin occupied by Adam and Eve showed us that it was a lousy place for humans to fulfill their earthly objective since the very best all human representatives did not fulfill their objective in the Garden and had a much greater chance outside the Garden after sinning.

God did not start over from scratch. Adam and Eve had the Garden experience and we all can see what they went through and learn from it.

 

[bling]

If it's not the same earth, then God's purpose for the earth failed.
That however, cannot happen, because God does not fail. Isaiah 55:10, 11

Not at all!

The purpose of this messed up world is to provide the very best place for willing individuals to fulfill their earthly objective and that is what it does. The New Earth, is where people who have already fulfilled their earthly objective will go.

Is. 55: 11 so is my word that goes out from my mouth:

It will not return to me empty,

but will accomplish what I desire

and achieve the purpose for which I sent it.

God sent His word to earth to provide the opportunity for everyone to receive it and change, but they have the free will to refuse God’s word, which does not take anything away from God’s word. God does His part perfectly.

There are a few parables that are not reality, but used to signify something.

Jesus used each illustration, according to the audience.

OK.

If your answer is yes, then we agree.
If your answer is no, then please explain.

Most of Revelation is written in apocalyptic language, symbolic representation.

Every choice has options, but I don't understand how that sheds light on, or validates the statement:
This earth and the way it is, provides the only logical place for the few willing individual to have a place to fulfill their earthly object where heave or some other type “earth” cannot provide totally free will choices with likely alternatives.

Something I missed here.
How does 2 Peter 3:11 explain what that expression - the earth and everything done in it will be found - mean?

This earth is where we live now, so be righteous, since it will not last.

Can you tell me please... why do you choose to use "land" here, and not "earth"?
erets: earth, land

Just quoting the NIV: Psalm 37:29 The righteous will inherit the land and dwell in it forever.

...and Matthew 5:5? Sorry for my referring to the Lord's prayer. That should have been the sermon on the Mount.
When will that be fulfilled?
Why does Jesus quote Psalm 37:11, if that is not to be a future fulfillment?
I'm still interested in the Lord's prayer, though. Why did jesus teach his followers to pray for God's kingdom to come, and God's will to de done on earth, as it is in heaven?

The Kingdom did come with Pentecost.

There are different types of “will” for God, since it can mean what God “desires” and what God “causes and/or allows”. We could just be showing our support of what God is causing and/or allowing.

Please explain.

I need to understand what you are not understanding from this very strait forward paragraph:

Jer. 18: 7 If at any time I announce that a nation or kingdom is to be uprooted, torn down and destroyed, 8 and if that nation I warned repents of its evil, then I will relent and not inflict on it the disaster I had planned. 9 And if at another time I announce that a nation or kingdom is to be built up and planted, 10 and if it does evil in my sight and does not obey me, then I will reconsider the good I had intended to do for it.

Do you not understand “if” is telling us that God’s promises are contingent on the person?

Why do you believe that?

Jesus says people who have died will become like the angels: Matthew 22:30 At the resurrection people will neither marry nor be given in marriage; they will be like the angels in heaven.

My question was concerning the earth, though. Does God's word fail in regard to the earth, and it being created by God to be inhabited, forever? Isaiah 55:10, 11

Explained above.
I think we agree that the Hebrew word for “forever” does not always mean eternal.

God’s word did not and is not failing, but man can fail.

Yes, the Bible says that God is aiding righteous ones. What is man's earthly objective, that God wants man to fulfill?
I am thinking of several scriptures.

Ok, this takes many words since you do not know.

Briefly:

Everything is driven by the objective and the objective is not to just live forever in heaven nor just not to sin, yet eternal life is one of the results of our fulfilling our earthly objective.

Has God given man a mission statement? (this is always good to have)

You can take any command in scripture and have Biblical support for calling that command “Man’s Objective” since Biblical said do it, but there are two overriding commands all other commands are bases on and subordinated to.

Would “Loving God and secondly others with all our heart, soul, mind, and energy” be our Mission statement given as two commands?

This Godly type Love is defined by Jesus’ words and deeds (you can also use 1 Cor 13 and 1 John 4), so what is that?

Is God this ultimate Lover? Would that “Love” compel even God to make beings that could Love like He Loves (this “Love of God” is totally unselfish [a measurement for pure Love] and thus is not for God’s sake at all, but is totally for the sake of others [which would also be God’s sake])?

So, if God is not doing anything for His own sake and everything for the sake of others, would He be expecting or needing anything from man or would God just be trying to give the greatest gifts He could give to man?

Are there something God just cannot do: like make another Christ, since Christ was never made but always existed?

Could God place this Godly type Love in a person at his/her creation (an instinctive love) or would an instinctive love be like a robotic love and not like God’s Love?

Could God just force His Love on man against the “will” of man or would that be like a shotgun wedding with God holding the shotgun?

What does man need that he does not have instinctively in order for man to fulfill His Mission?

Man must have a very limited amount of autonomous free will to make at least the one choice to humbly accept or reject God’s Love (forgiveness/mercy/grace/charity).

Man’s objective seems to be to obtain and grow this Godly type Love to fulfill the mission (statement) of Love God and secondly others with all our heart, soul, mind, and energy.

Our “objective” while here on earth is to just accept God’s gift as it was given as pure charity, this will enable us to fulfill our mission.

God is not trying to get you to do something, but is trying to give you something.

The problem is not sin (unforgiven sin is a huge problem), because God will forgive our sins which helps us to Love (…he that is forgiven much will Love much….Luke 7) God hates sin, but does allow it, so we can more easily accept His Love (in the form of forgiveness the easiest way for us to accept His charity). The problem is always our fulfilling our objective.

The easiest way for humans to accept God’s charity (Love) is out of a huge need and that need is the relief from the burden of hurting others in the past (sin). By a free willing acceptance of God’s forgiveness, we accept God’s Love (mercy/grace/charity) and thus we will Love much (a Godly type Love, automatically given) since Jesus has taught us (we also see this in our own lives) “…he that is forgiven much will Love much…” Luke 7: 36-50.

That's an interesting question.
How different is it to the millions of different interpretations that people are giving for the scriptures, in the other books?
Do you know that quite a number of people - like 99.9%, of those on these forums believe that every person has their interpretation of all the scriptures... including the book of Revelation?

Should we dismiss Revelation, then, or should we include it, since it's very much a part of the inspired word, and extremely important. Revelation 1:3; Revelation 22:7

Our objective comes first.

There is more scripture than I would ever have the time to fully understand, so I need to prioritize. The Spirit within me know where I should best spend my time, so I will follow His lead.

My experience has been the same as those of my brothers collectively.
Thousands of those "people of peace" are responding, and become disciple... if not in a short while, in the long run, and there is hope for those who have not yet become a disciple. The potential is great.
What about you?

I enjoy doing one on one Bible Studies, but really only two were, what I considered a “person of Peace” the Spirit led me to, so He could mentor them through me with amazing “success”. I have also known several “Persons of Peace”, who were mentored by the Spirit through other friends. These are all long stories, but the result was: they rapidly Spiritual grew right past me.

Please forgive my insistence, but my questions are designed to get your answer, so that we make progress, beyond our personal feelings.
So, I hope I am not wearing you out.
Do you think Jesus has disciples on earth, who are evangelizing, and fulfilling the assignment to carry out this work to the end?

Yes, but maybe not in the West. I keep up with some Disciples in China, but know of what some are doing in North Korea, India, Iran, and parts of Africa. These are long stories.

I'm so happy you asked.
THE SIGNIFICANCE OF A COMMA: AN ANALYSIS OF LUKE 23:43
The whole problem hangs on a single comma, most likely absent from Luke’s original manuscript. With the comma placed before “today” (sēmeron), as most translations do, the adverb would refer to the following verb (“to be”), and the text would have the traditional meaning: “Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in Paradise.”1 But if placed after “today,” then the adverb would modify the preceding verb (“to tell”), and Jesus’ words would have an entirely different connotation: “Truly I tell you today, you will be with me in Paradise.” Though sometimes considered pleonastic and senseless,2 the alternative reading could be possible, especially if all the evidence - textual, linguistic, and scriptural - is accounted for.

What does the evidence teach us about the proper meaning of that text?

TEXTUAL EVIDENCE
...
Written at the beginning of the third century, P75 is our oldest copy of Luke and it has no point either before or after ["today"] sēmeron in our passage, though some punctuation can be found here and there.

Punctuation marks, therefore, are not an integral part of the canonical text. In fact, they reveal only how the text was read and understood by those who copied it. So, when Luke 23:43 was punctuated, the comma was placed before ["today"] sēmeron not for grammatical reasons, but for the theological conviction prevailing at the time that the final reward of the faithful who die comes immediately after death. Sometimes the scribes also rephrased the text in order to make its meaning supposedly clearer. This is how the word that (hoti) became part of Jesus’ statement. “That” was not in the original but was added before the adverb (“Truly I tell you that today . . .”) under the assumption that this is what Jesus meant; this addition appears in a number of medieval Greek manuscripts as well as in several ancient and modern translations.

We find it interesting, however, that the fourth-century Codex Vaticanus, “one of the most valuable of all the manuscripts of the Greek Bible”3and a close relative of P75 textually speaking,4 has a point on the line right after, not before, the adverb ["today"] sēmeron.

Yet we find it difficult to know whether this point goes back to the original scribe or was added at a later time, which seems more probable.5 At any rate, Codex Vaticanus has a point after sēmeron, and the manuscript shows no attempt to have it removed or corrected by any of its readers.

Notwithstanding, even if this evidence is inconclusive, there is no question that important segments in the Christian church read the adverb “today” with the preceding verb (“to tell”). Another example is the Greek minuscule manuscript 339, from the thirteenth century, that not only has a point after sēmeron but also has left enough space before the next word so as to make the thesis of an accident virtually impossible. In addition, there are several other medieval punctuated manuscripts that simply leave this passage as it is, without any punctuation mark,6 though the rule was to place a point or comma before the adverb. The alternative reading (“Truly I tell you today . . .”) is also found in the Curetonian Syriac, one of the earliest translations of the NT whose text goes back to the second century. Among the church writers, this reading was also attested by Ephraem the Syrian, of the fourth century,7 as well as Cassian and Hesychius, of the fifth century. Though Cassian and Hesychius themselves preferred to link “today” with the verb “to be,” they explicitly refer to those who used to read the adverb with the verb “to tell” as heretics.8

None of this evidence establishes Luke’s original punctuation or demonstrates that the alternative reading was predominant in ancient and medieval Christianity; it was not.10 But together they do show that the attempt to link the adverb “today” with the preceding verb did have notable supporters in Christian history, thus allowing the possibility that this was, in fact, what Luke meant.

You can read the LINGUISTIC EVIDENCE and SCRIPTURAL EVIDENCE.
The scriptural evidence may vary to some degree from what I have presented.


I hope the LINGUISTIC EVIDENCE clears that up.

The translations do not matter, and it's important we take note that theology and doctrine guide translators for the most part, and the ideas existed as far back as the second century CE.

What you said does not “prove” a comma should come after “today”.

There are lots of Greek Biblical scholars, who agreed on the comma going before today in their writing of the English translation and I find no Biblical Scholar involved in writing an English translation putting the comma after today, so I briefly looked at it:

If you place the comma after “today” it does not add anything to what Jesus is saying, you would have the exact same meaning leaving the word “today” out of what Jesus said:

Truly I tell you: “you will be with me in Paradise.” = “Truly I tell you today, you will be with me in Paradise.”

Do you see Jesus wasting his words, especially while on the cross?

There are plenty of people who do not like the salvation of the thief at all or do not like both of them going to Paradise the day they die.

 

[CoreyD]

No, Jerimiah is pointing out that God’s promises concerning God’s future actions are contingent on man’s future actions. There is an extremely logical reason why God must state His future actions this way and shows He does know the future. (but that is off subject.)

God's will, and purpose is not the same as God paying back man according to what man does.
Jeremiah 18 has nothing to do with God's purpose, but is related to how God deals with a nation.

You bring up a lot of different Doctrines here, so we may have to come back to it and You can help me with further questions to know what to address.

What "different Doctrines" have I brought up?
What I am doing, is responding to your claim... which would be a doctrine, would it not be... in order to show you the difference between God's promises concerning his... I said former, but what I meant is his initial, or original, purpose, and the promise at Jeremiah 18.

I can help you now, with what I want you to address.
I have been asking you some questions which you are not answering. I would like those addressed. Can you do that?

Question. I love questions, but I also love to hear answers to questions.
Can I count on you to answer the questions I asked, which you have not answered?
I'll still go ahead and answer your questions.

• You talk about “God’s former purpose”, but nothing has changed, so what was that “purpose” you feel changed?

I used a bad word. I meant initial, or original.
God's original purpose is stated in Genesis 1:26-28; Isaiah 45:18; Acts 17:26

God's purpose has not changed, but neither has it come to realization, or been fulfilled.
The earth is not filled with righteous, happy people, serving God in a paradise of delight - delighting themselves in abundant peace. Psalm 37:11
The Bible explains why that is the case - Romans 5:12
This is not about our feelings. I am not interested in what "we feel".

• Do you feel God was surprised by man sinning?

This is not about our feelings. I am not interested in what "we feel".
Read Genesis 3:8-24, and that should tell you the Bible's answer. Which should be what you want to know, rather than what a pastor, or anyone else tells you about God.
What answer do you get from those verses? @jacks can I involve you in this?

• God does not like sin, but does God not allow humans to sin? Could God have kept people from sinning? Does sin not have a purpose that allows humans to more easily fulfill their earthly objective?

Does God allow sin? The Bible's answer : Romans 9:22; Romans 8:20-24; Romans 5:12
Could God have kept people from sinning? Deuteronomy 30:19, 20; Acts 17:27; Romans 1:19, 20
God made his children free willed agents, and as the potter, that is how God wanted them to be. Genesis 1:31

If God made humans to be able to choose whether to love and obey him, or not, could humans choose to sin? No one is programed to love God, or dogs, or ice-cream.
Does sin not have a purpose that allows humans to more easily fulfill their earthly objective? I have not found any scripture in the Bible that supports that idea. Death is an enemy. Romans 5:12-21; 1 Corinthians 15:16
Sin is anything that goes against God. It separated God's children from him, and separates us from God. Galatians 5:19-23

• Are you suggesting God and we would like to go back to a Garden type Scenario, since with that scenario two sinless people sinned? What do we have that they did not have?

I like this question, because it gets me into your mind, and perhaps the minds of millions of people who want to abandon earth. Thanks.

I'll answer the last question, first.
What will persons living in the future have, that Adam and Eve did not have.

1. Unbreakable love for and loyalty to God.
2. Knowledge of the consequences of independence from God.
3. Knowledge that submitting to God's rulership leads to the best life possible.
4. An unwavering determination to stick to God regardless.

However, what humans have is not the most important thing.
The most important thing is God's name and Sovereignty. Psalm 83:18; Ezekiel 36:23; Ezekiel 38:23; Isaiah 5:16; Daniel 2:44; Matthew 6:9, 10

Considering your first question, here is something to consider.

• The angel that sinned - becoming Satan the Devil - was sinless, and in heaven. So were the crowd of heavenly ones that followed him.
• Whether in heaven, or on earth, intelligent creatures can sin.
• The location has nothing to do with sin. So, the idea that heaven is somehow a get away place from sin, is a myth.

The reason persons go to heaven, is outlined in the scriptures. Those scriptures I referenced previously.
Matthew 6:10
Your kingdom come, Your will be done, on earth as it is in heaven.

Daniel 2:44 - In the days of those kings, the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that will never be destroyed, nor will it be left to another people. It will shatter all these kingdoms and bring them to an end, but will itself stand forever.

Isaiah 9:6, 7 - 6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given, and the government will be upon His shoulders. And He will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace. 7 Of the increase of His government and peace there will be no end. He will reign on the throne of David and over his kingdom, to establish and sustain it with justice and righteousness from that time and forevermore. The zeal of the LORD of Hosts will accomplish this.

God arranged for a kingdom - a heavenly government - to be ruled by his only begotten, who will rule over the earth, after destroying all other kingdoms, and restore the earth to the state God wills it - a paradise. Man's home, where sin and death will be gone forever. 1 Corinthians 15:24-28
Christ selected persons to rule with him, but Christ did not decide that every righteous person would rule. He chose a small number. Luke 12:32; Luke 22:28-30; Revelation 7:1-4; Revelation 14:1-4; Revelation 20:4, 6
These are the Saints.

They will rule with Christ, and be priests and judges with him, for the thousand years. Daniel 7:13, 14, 27; Revelation 5:9, 10
The scriptures are all there for you to check, since we wants God's view, and not our personal opinions.

So, yes. According to the scriptures, God, and his people - those who submit to God's will, as outlined in the scriptures, wants mankind to go back to the Garden (paradise) of Eden (pleasure/ delight), so that God can accomplish what he set out to accomplish from Genesis.
Ephesians 1:9, 10
9 having made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His good pleasure which He purposed in Himself, 10 that in the dispensation of the fullness of the times He might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven and which are on earth - in Him.

Yes. It is God's will and purpose, to have a universal family - sons in heaven, and sons on earth... both worshipping their heavenly father unitedly in love.
With his sovereignty proven and established to all his children, that is exactly what will be. Revelation 21:1-5
This is why God allowed time to prove once and for all time, that God's rule is righteous and good Romans 3:25, 26, and allowed time for persons to choose whom they will serve. 2 Peter 3:9

God presented Him as the atoning sacrifice through faith in His blood, in order to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance He had passed over the sins committed beforehand. He did this to demonstrate His righteousness at the present time, so as to be just and to justify the one who has faith in Jesus. Romans 3:25, 26​

My question to you is, which of these scriptures do you consider as not supporting the above, if any, and why?

• Are we as Christians in this messed up world not better off than Adam and Eve were prior to sinning?

No.
We sin against God, because... Let's allow a first century Christian, and vessel of God, to answer.
Romans 7:14-20
14 ...I am carnal, sold under sin. 15 For what I am doing, I do not understand. For what I will to do, that I do not practice; but what I hate, that I do. 16 If, then, I do what I will not to do, I agree with the law that it is good. 17 But now, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me. 18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells; for to will is present with me, but how to perform what is good I do not find. 19 For the good that I will to do, I do not do; but the evil I will not to do, that I practice. 20 Now if I do what I will not to do, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me.
21 I find then a law, that evil is present with me, the one who wills to do good. 22 For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man. 23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. 24 O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? 25 I thank God - through Jesus Christ our Lord!
So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin.

How are we better off? Please explain.

• Would you prefer to be in a place where your eternal close relation with God was dependent on your personal ability to not sin or in a place where your eternal close relationship with God is dependent on your just accepting God’s Love?

There is a problem with this question.
Can you please tell me... Where was the first sin... in heaven, or on earth? Please read John 8:44, to be sure.
Did anyone in heaven, or on earth, have a close relationship with God, simply on the basis of "just accepting God’s Love"? Who? and where can I find the verse?

Here is what we read in Jude 1:20, 21
But you, dear friends, by building yourselves up in your most holy faith and praying in the Holy Spirit, keep yourselves in God’s love as you wait for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ to bring you to eternal life.

The idea of "just accepting God’s Love" is not found in scripture.
I was thinking when you asked, "Are we as Christians in this messed up world not better off than Adam and Eve were prior to sinning?" of people who enjoy sinning, because they think that they can sin and then God will forgive them.
Perhaps this is why some do preach the message from the pulpit - "just accepting God’s Love".
I've met people like this.

I'm a bit tired, so I will answer the rest of your question later.
I want to get to the end of this post.