The Lord called him home.....or did He??????

[Byzantine Girl]

I am not a theologian and I don't play one on tv, but after attending yet another Protestant funeral, I felt the need to put my thoughts in writing. Is it just me....I mean, when the pastor says that the Lord called someone home to their reward, does anyone else flinch in their pew? My in-laws are Southern Baptist - wonderful, faithful Christians. They tell me they have no need for holy tradition, sacraments, intercessions of the saints, a hierarchical clergy, you know...stuff like that. They need only the Bible, I'm told and so I ask myself, where in the Bible does it say that God afflicts people with disease, places them in car accidents or in the hands of murderers to bring them to heaven. It's not in the Bible - I've looked. I look at the body in the coffin, blood drained and veins filled with an unholy substance to keep it from naturally decaying and I ask myself, is this what God wanted for us? I want to stand up and scream and say, "My brothers and sisters - this corpse lying in the coffin is NOT what our Lord had planned for us! It is only because of the disobediance of Adam and Eve that we were cast out of Paradise and became subject to sin and death! We were created in the image of Christ to live in perfect peace and for all eternity with Him in Paradise. When we were expelled from Paradise, we became subject to the things that put people in the grave. God does NOT put us in the grave to call us home! It is precisely because we fell victim to death that Christ came to die for us and conquer death! The sad news is that we are subject to the free will of other people - the murderers, the drunk drivers, etc....the good news is that death has been slain, vanquished and conquered by our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ! Maybe it just makes people feel better to think God called their loved one home, although I can't see how. I do not like to think of my God as a God that gives children cancer and I don't have to because it isn't true.
Christ is risen from the dead, trampling down death by death and upon those in the tombs bestowing life! To Him be all honor and glory adn thanksgiving!

 

[Mary of Bethany]

I know how you feel. My own mother's (Southern Baptist) funeral two months' ago was actually not too bad, but I've heard a lot of that over the years.

Welcome to TAW, btw.

Mary

 

[Byzantine Girl]

Whew! It's good to know it's not just me! Thanks for your reply! I am sorry about the loss of your mother...may her memory be eternal.

Love -Mary

 

[Rindicella]

Several years ago, I attended the funeral of a relative. He was, quite frankly, a "no-good" who beat his wives (all eight of them) , lied to them every chance he got, beat the children (drunk AND sober, made no difference to him, he enjoyed it all the same---only one went on to lead a "normal" life...the rest were doomed to lives of substance abuse, and God only knows what else.) and cheated anyone and everyone who was foolish enough to do business with him. It was a truly sordid business and yet, I went to the funeral because no one in my family wanted to go and I simply wanted to be compassionate to the family and show up, as representative of mine.

The eulology (spelling?) wasn't even the worst part. The worst part was when the minister (who had never met him) got up and said some meaningless nonsense about the "Lord calling his sheep to come home" at which point I really had to excuse myself and visit the restroom. When I came back, I was astounded to see one of the ex-wives hysterical, crying and trying to climb into the coffin....(Okay! let's break to the "Christian" band who will play his favorite song, "Raindrops keep falling on my head...") I almost made it through the song, until another female relative of mine looked me right in the eye and said,
"Why are we doing this?"

I responded in a muffled voice that I supposed it was because we are supposed to pretend that we loved this guy and that none of what he did mattered, because of OSAS and all that. (At the time, I was supposed to believe in and didn't.) Or something to that effect.

Her eyes were clear when she said right back, "Today, I've decided I don't believe in once-saved/always saved. I think today did me in on that doctrine. And frankly, I think if the Lord were 'looking for His sheep', He knows the difference between a goat and a sheep."

Now, I know we are not supposed to speculate on who is "saved" and who is not, and that this is a distinctly non-Orthodox exercise...But I think the OP is spot on, one hundred percent right ..... the "culture" of funerals says alot about the theology of the attendees....and some it is just nonsense and shouldn't be treated as anything else. (Except of course when it comes to a grieving family...we should never upset the apple cart and say this stuff to them....but surely, we should be recognizing nonsense for what it is????


PS: God bless you and I will pray for you and your loss....I also thank you from the bottom of my heart for what you have written and I thank you for giving me the opportunity to rant in response...
Love to you,
R.

 

[mwboldt]

I agree very much with this. I think it goes beyond any particular denomination, or perhaps even religion. After reading When Bad Things Happen to Good People, I started to notice and, as you put it, flinch when people talk about God causing death, illness, and all sorts of bad things. Our God is a God of life.

 

[Komnenos]

I am not a theologian and I don't play one on tv, but after attending yet another Protestant funeral, I felt the need to put my thoughts in writing. Is it just me....I mean, when the pastor says that the Lord called someone home to their reward, does anyone else flinch in their pew? My in-laws are Southern Baptist - wonderful, faithful Christians. They tell me they have no need for holy tradition, sacraments, intercessions of the saints, a hierarchical clergy, you know...stuff like that. They need only the Bible, I'm told and so I ask myself, where in the Bible does it say that God afflicts people with disease, places them in car accidents or in the hands of murderers to bring them to heaven. It's not in the Bible - I've looked. I look at the body in the coffin, blood drained and veins filled with an unholy substance to keep it from naturally decaying and I ask myself, is this what God wanted for us? I want to stand up and scream and say, "My brothers and sisters - this corpse lying in the coffin is NOT what our Lord had planned for us! It is only because of the disobediance of Adam and Eve that we were cast out of Paradise and became subject to sin and death! We were created in the image of Christ to live in perfect peace and for all eternity with Him in Paradise. When we were expelled from Paradise, we became subject to the things that put people in the grave. God does NOT put us in the grave to call us home! It is precisely because we fell victim to death that Christ came to die for us and conquer death! The sad news is that we are subject to the free will of other people - the murderers, the drunk drivers, etc....the good news is that death has been slain, vanquished and conquered by our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ! Maybe it just makes people feel better to think God called their loved one home, although I can't see how. I do not like to think of my God as a God that gives children cancer and I don't have to because it isn't true.
Christ is risen from the dead, trampling down death by death and upon those in the tombs bestowing life! To Him be all honor and glory adn thanksgiving!

spot on! Welcome to TAW BTW. I tried explaining to my protestant friends this, and they scoffed at me. Oh well "shake the dust off"

 

[Aloha Joe]

I'm not Orthodox (yet?), so please forgive whatever understanding I might lack. I have of course heard the phrase "taken home by the Lord" no small number of times. I've generally understood it to be used within the context of a world that's already fallen. That is to say, of course sin, death and disease are the tragic consequences of Adam and Eve's disobedience, and not God's will for mankind. It most certainly was never in God's plan that a child suffer from some excruciating disease. But might not death--in the context of a profound suffering that was never meant to be--be a rescue from that suffering? I don't know the answer myself--just posing the question.

I've never been taught that suffering and death were anything other than a horrible departure from God's plan. I understand that those who follow "Reformed" doctrine might believe otherwise, but I think they're the minority in the current Protestant/Evangelical world.

On a different but related note, I suppose those kinds of theological differences evidence the flawed consequences of the Reformation (see? I might make it into the catechumenate yet).

 

[MariaRegina]

I have always thought of heaven as our true home and that we are merely pilgrims on this earth.

God knew from all eternity that Adam would fall, but He still gave Adam and Even that chance. Isaia's Suffering Servant and all the Old Testament Prophecies show that God also knew that His Only-Begotten Son would suffer death on the Cross, and that Heaven and Hell would remain at the Last Judgment. Therefore, heaven would become the ultimate home of those who obeyed Christ's commands.

God only permits suffering and death in this fallen world. He does not desire the death of His faithful, but that they be converted and live eternally with Him.

 

[mwboldt]

Another resource I found quite useful when learning about the Orthodox perspective on death is Fr. Thomas Hopko's "The Death of Jesus & Our Death in Him". Audio can be found at:

myocn.net/index.php/Special-Moments-in-Orthodoxy/The-Week-of-August-10-2007.html
myocn.net/index.php/Special-Moments-in-Orthodoxy/The-Week-of-August-17-2007.html
myocn.net/index.php/Special-Moments-in-Orthodoxy/The-Week-of-August-24-2007.html
myocn.net/index.php/Special-Moments-in-Orthodoxy/The-Week-of-August-31-2007.html

(I would've put direct links, but don't have enough posts yet )

 

[GBTWC]

rom 8:28 all things even death of the most horrific kind can bring glory to God if we walk according to His purpose the Psalms are full off examples off David being afflicted and these things all were according to Gods will what satan intends for evil is thwarted by those who walk in the spirit. Now off course we cant assume to know if God had a purpose in a persons death but we do know that if they Died in Christ they have a home
John14:1-4“Do not let your heart be troubled; believe in God, believe also in Me. “In My Father’s house are many dwelling places; if it were not so, I would have told you; for I go to prepare a place for you. “If I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself, that where I am, there you may be also. “And you know the way where I am going.”
that sounds like home to me
so was it Gods will that St. Ignatius was fed to the lions. or even better Christ told Peter about His coming death so it seems that was Gods will. so yes its definatly biblical
I think the biggest problem I have with funerals is it seems everyone is going to heaven no matter how they spent their lives. I really like the Orthodox perspective of celebrating the day of ones earthly departure rathure than their earthly birthday

 

[Byzantine Girl]

Rant on, Rindicella!!! Rant on!

 

[joyfulthanks]

Orthodoxy is also different, I think, from Catholicism, which (if I am not mistaken) teaches that suffering can be offered up to God as redemptive - both for oneself and/or for others.

 

[E.C.]

That is one major thing that I have with Atheists, Agnostics, Protestants, non-believers etc; is when they say "God caused <insert misery in life>".

From what I have been taught, is that God does not cause suffering in this world, but does allow it to happen and even what He does allow happen, He does not allow it to be something that will defeat you (like a futile situation). He allows things to happen yes, but does allow them to be things that one can easily overcome.

Sorry, that's my mini rant on this subject.


I was never one big "fan" of Protestant funerals for a variety of reasons. The above being one.

 

[katherine2001]

As Fr. Hopko explains, God doesn't cause suffering. He gives us free will and we choose to hurt others with that free will. God gets to clean up the mess that results if we will let him, which is often very painful.

 

[GBTWC]

That is one major thing that I have with Atheists, Agnostics, Protestants, non-believers etc; is when they say "God caused <insert misery in life>".

From what I have been taught, is that God does not cause suffering in this world, but does allow it to happen and even what He does allow happen, He does not allow it to be something that will defeat you (like a futile situation). He allows things to happen yes, but does allow them to be things that one can easily overcome.

Sorry, that's my mini rant on this subject.


I was never one big "fan" of Protestant funerals for a variety of reasons. The above being one.

were are you getting your info on protestants from Ive never heard "God causes suffering" at any church Ive ever been to on the contrary the Bible teaches God ALLOWS suffering, Like a fire that refines Gold

 

[Julina]

were are you getting your info on protestants from Ive never heard "God causes suffering" at any church Ive ever been to on the contrary the Bible teaches God ALLOWS suffering, Like a fire that refines Gold

there are plenty of Christians out there who actually think that God wants to punish us.

 

[katherine2001]

I've known all too many of those myself. I was taught about that God. Personally, I think a lot of these people love the idea of God having vengeance on the people they don't like or agree with. When our Lord told us to pray for our enemies, I don't think that is what He meant. I have to admit that I heard a lot of this in the Fundamentalist churches I attended.

 

[E.C.]

were are you getting your info on protestants from Ive never heard "God causes suffering" at any church Ive ever been to on the contrary the Bible teaches God ALLOWS suffering, Like a fire that refines Gold

Let me put it this way, I like to consider the region I live in as the "cesspool of abnormality". Sure, your Average Joe in my area is what one would call a "moderate" but I'd say about 20% of the population in my area is of one great extreme or the other.

Logically, one does encounter a lot of near heretical (if not outright heretical) ideas like God causing everyone grief. Part of any explanation could be the fact that my state has the largest percentage of a "No Religion" population in the country.
And no, that "No Religion" population is not of the folks who say that Christianity is a relationship and not a religion.

Needless to say, such pessimism seeps into the mainstream. In the US, the mainstream would be Protestantism. Add the fact that most people who call themselves Christian do not act the part in any way, shape or form.

None of this changes the fact that most Protestants I have run into with regards to this topic do in fact blame God for their miseries in life.

 

[joyfulthanks]

What's your take on the book of Job?

 

[GBTWC]

there are plenty of Christians out there who actually think that God wants to punish us.

We all Know just because one claims the name of Christ doesnt mean their Christian. You could probably ask the same people what as protestants their protesting and they wouldnt have a clue

I have to admit that I heard a lot of this in the Fundamentalist churches I attended.

maybe Im spoiled at my Church they teach verse by verse out of the bible that way you receive the whole council of God to me that is fundamentalist

Logically, one does encounter a lot of near heretical (if not outright heretical) ideas like God causing everyone grief. Part of any explanation could be the fact that my state has the largest percentage of a "No Religion" population in the country.
And no, that "No Religion" population is not of the folks who say that Christianity is a relationship and not a religion.

None of this changes the fact that most Protestants I have run into with regards to this topic do in fact blame God for their miseries in life.

what do you mean by that no religion crowd?
I figure if some one is blaming God for suffering they might not be worshiping the God of the Bible' so theirs your chance to plant seeds in them of truth.