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The Liturgist

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I agree in that in heresy one’s mind is wounded, yet the Church remains to preach correction. In schism, one has said in his heart that he is to rise up against the body of Christ Himself. We have the example of David, upon whose throne Our Lord now sits, that never was a man more justified in schism as well as having motive and opportunity, yet he could not bring himself to lift his hand against the Lord’s anointed.

If David could not do it, who are you o man to lift his hand to tear the body of Christ asunder?

The word you is a general term and not directed @theLiturgist. We all need to self reflect on this

I am opposed to schism and a proponent of ecumenical reconciliation, but homosexuality is a deal-breaker for me as it is incompatible with Orthodox doctrine on human sexuality.
 
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RileyG

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I am opposed to schism and a proponent of ecumenical reconciliation, but homosexuality is a deal-breaker for me as it is incompatible with Orthodox doctrine on human sexuality.
Amen
 
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I am opposed to schism and a proponent of ecumenical reconciliation, but homosexuality is a deal-breaker for me as it is incompatible with Orthodox doctrine on human sexuality.
As it would be a deal breaker for me if it were so, but God cannot bless sin, neither can the Church. The fact that there are tares in God’s garden does not give us the right to abandon it and start another after our own likeness.

FS is already being walked back as the words of a man, not an ex cathedra statement. I will stay in the Church and see what the Holy Spirit does with this. I do not snub my nose at Him and leave
 
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The Liturgist

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As it would be a deal breaker for me if it were so, but God cannot bless sin, neither can the Church. The fact that there are tares in God’s garden does not give us the right to abandon it and start another after our own likeness.

FS is already being walked back as the words of a man, not an ex cathedra statement. I will stay in the Church and see what the Holy Spirit does with this. I do not snub my nose at Him and leave

Its not being walked back fast or hard enough. The fact that it was even issued is an ecclesiastical disaster.
 
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The Liturgist

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True but it still does not justify schism

I am not advocating for schism. My prayer is for the healing of schisms and for ecumenical reconciliation according to the faith of the early church as decided by the ecumenical councils.
 
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I am not advocating for schism. My prayer is for the healing of schisms and for ecumenical reconciliation according to the faith of the early church as decided by the ecumenical councils.
Well that will only happen if the schismatic mind undergoes repentance. Yes it is a humiliating experience and I argued ever more strongly that the Church had to compromise and meet me in the middle or had to come to me and explain their position
That never happened, but through His incredible mercy, God did not give up on me. I can’t tell you how or why it happened, as who knows the mind of God? But when I gave up my demands and submitted to the Lord, I received grace above what I could ever hope to ask or think. The contentious spirit within me and the warring nature in my flesh was gone. The mortal sin that would come so easily as breathing was now gone. It was relaced with thoughts of why would you ever want to do that? That path is unprofitable and the short term pleasure you receive will cost you eternity.

Jesus had the twelve Apostles with Him, and if He wanted to, He could have said, you are my friends and my council, and on this council, I will build my Church, but we all know that He did not say that. It is on the Rock of Peter that the Church is built. My flesh did not like that, and I wanted to use every excuse to say it isn’t so, it is when I humbled myself and submitted to the full authority of the Church, God opened my eyes as He did Paul, whose shadow I am not worthy to even consider that I get close to. Jerome(my name), son of Jerome(my father) why persecutest thou Me? It was not an audible voice but a level of understanding I had not considered. It came to me when reading John of the Cross, Ascent of Mt Carmel.
My reasoning is questionable, but the grace I received is undeniable, and as Satan does not cast out Satan, I know who gave it to me.

Peace be with you
 
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The Liturgist

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It seemed meet to continue this conversation in this thread, for reasons that pertain to the question and other remarks, (and note that I posted this thread on 11/24/23), and since the subject matter amounted to Denomination Specific Theology.

2) It is inappropriate for the Western Journal to describe the church's theology as "capitulation to secular forces".

But that’s exactly what happened. The Episcopal Church, as homosexuality became mainstream in our society, decided that the numerous prohibitions against it in both the Old and New Testaments and the warnings by the Early Church Fathers of the spiritual dangers associated with it were to be discounted, which ignored Scripture and Tradition and represents an un-Reasonable capitulation.

I myself have consistently described what has happened in the mainline churches and more recently in the Roman Catholic Church with fiducia supplicans using exactly that same phrase, and also the similar phrase “capitulation to the demands of secular society” and I did so without having read this website or any other common text, indeed, I thought I had coined the phrase.

The Episcopal Church went through more than 40 years of careful theological discernment in coming to its present position. Feel free to disagree with the church (as I know most CF readers will!), but the process was not some mindless capitulation. It involved many years of careful study and prayer.

I don’t think anyone has accused the Episcopal Church of “mindless capitulation.” I believe your church capitulated to secular pressure following 40 years of prayer and discernment which failed to produce the correct answer, because it is improper to pray to God for permission to sin or to endorse sin. And these were not unanimous decisions, either, and even now there exists a conservative presence in the Episcopal Church which adheres to Scriptural and Patristic values, which unambiguously recognize lust, pride and sodomy as extremely dangerous sins and regards the combination of such as being particularly spiritually dangerous.

Unfortunately, they are a minority, but fortunately, they still exist. And if more pressure is applied to the remaining conservative dioceses, which I believe have largely remained for fear of losing their real estate, they can now depart with impunity, following the Supreme Court decision that the Anglican Diocese of Fort Worth could retain its real property. And these actions cannot be interpreted as schismatic, since Scripture clearly says that pride and lust are dangerous, and clearly establishes marriage as being between one man and one women, and also condemns divorce as being a form of adultery.

Do ACNA and Continuing Anglican churches use the Episcopal Church shield as their logo?

I don’t know about the ACNA, but the Continuing Anglicans have often used the shield and the flag, and minor variants thereof.

They're welcome to, I guess, but it seems that it would lead to confusion for visitors who are looking for churches that are/are not inclusive of women or gay people.

ACNA and the Continuing Anglican churches are inclusive of women and of repentant and celibate persons who have struggled with adhering to Scriptural and Patristic sexual morality. Indeed ACNA even has female priests.

And as it stands, there are, for the time being at least, there are many Episcopal churches which are very properly not inclusive of those persons who struggle with unnatural sexual urges and who are unable to remain celibate and repentant, so confusion already exists. Indeed I have several friends who are traditionalist Episcopal clergy. Practically anyone who graduated from Nashotah House is going to adhere to the Scriptural and Patristic instructions on human sexuality and regards pride and lust as spiritually dangerous passions.

Thus the Episcopal Shield, for the time being at least, is inclusive of traditional Christians, since those Episcopal churches which are not inclusive of traditional Christians who do not want their children subjected to political messaging or to be taught that deviance from Scriptural and Patristic teaching on sexual morality is not only acceptable, but that it is immoral to read St. Paul’s writings literally, and likewise that the Torah followed to this day by Orthodox and Karaite Jews is immoral, tend to additionally fly a “Pride Flag” and include verbal statements on their website about how inclusive and tolerant they are (which one will find out is not the case if one expresses an opinion consistent with those of, say, St. Gregory Nyssa or St. Basil the Great concerning human sexuality, or quotes the Epistle of St. Paul to the Romans and other Pauline epistles, or the Torah, or Proverbs 16:18.

Now, I was actually surprised by some of the traditional Episcopal churches that I found, and where some of them are located. There are also Episcopal churches which have some clergy who are not adhering to the Biblical and Patristic instructions on sexual morality, but which are tolerant if not necessarily broadly inclusive of traditional Christians. These parishes tend to avoid highly political content in their sermons, avoid flying the “Pride flag”, and avoid the kind of doctrinal speculation which has occurred in some of the more liberal Episcopal churches, going back to Bishop James Pike of San Francisco.
 
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PloverWing

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As I wrote in the other thread, CF rules do not permit me to explain or defend my church's theological
position on LGBTQ issues.

I don’t know about the ACNA, but the Continuing Anglicans have often used the shield and the flag, and minor variants thereof.

It still seems confusing to me to use symbols that are identical to those of the denomination they broke away from. "Minor variants" are appropriate, though.

ACNA and the Continuing Anglican churches are inclusive of women and of repentant and celibate persons who have struggled with adhering to Scriptural and Patristic sexual morality. Indeed ACNA even has female priests.

I thought that the ACNA and Continuing Anglican churches varied in whether they ordain women as bishops, priests, and deacons.

Thus the Episcopal Shield, for the time being at least, is inclusive of traditional Christians

That is entirely appropriate. The Episcopal Church intentionally encompasses a variety of opinions on theological issues.
 
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jamiec

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Last week, in a truly devastatingly tragic event, the worst thing to happen in the Church of England in many years, they voted to begin trial blessing services for homosexual marriages, which are of course directly contrary to scripture. In retrospect, it is remarkable that the C of E held out as long as it did, and I suspect part of that may have been due to some influence or respect for HM Queen Elisabeth II, Memory Eternal, and with her having departed, no longer the nominal leader of the Church of England, a subject she might have been deeply opposed to might have proceeded. Or it could be the result of other changes.

At any rate, this is extremely depressing, as it brings the C of E into line with the same failed condition we see in the Episcopal Church USA, the Scottish Episcopal Church, the Church of Ireland, and the Anglican Church of Canada, and the Anglican Church of New Zealand, with the exception of the very conservative Maori portion of that church where our friend @Carl Emerson worships.

This leaves, as far as I am aware, only the Anglican Church in Wales and some parts of the Anglican Church in Australia, and the aforementioned Maori church, and also as far as I am aware, the Anglican Church in Hong Kong, as hold outs among the developed English speaking world that are members of the Anglican Communion.

It also increases greatly the risk of a schism with more conservative churches in Africa, Asia and South America, such as the Anglican Province of the Southern Cone, the Church of Ghana, the Church of South India and the Mar Thoma Syrian Church.

On the bright side, there remain a large number of conservative, traditional Anglicans in the Church of England, and thus far these parishes have been allowed to operate even in the most liberal dioceses without much interference. In particular, in the Diocese of London, there is a great deal of tolerance for conservative churches, both of the low church Evangelical variety and the high church Anglo Catholic variety (the former being exemplified by Holy Trinity Brompton and the latter by St. Magnus the Martyr, All Saints Margaret Street and St. Bartholomew the Great. London is also home to “Royal Peculiars” under the direct control of the monarch, including Westminster Abbey, the Chapel of the Savoy, and the Temple, and these churches preserve a very traditional form of Anglican worship, with boys’ choirs (as well as a very excellent girls’ choir at the Temple), and use of services from the Book of Common Prayer (unfortunately the 1662 version, since the superior 1928 version was infamously blocked by Parliament, although large portions of it survive in Common Worship, which is the extremely flexible liturgical system introduced by the C of E in recent years.

This will also severely damage ecumenical relationships between all Anglican churches and various other churches including the persecuted churches of the Middle East and Ukraine, such as the Ukrainian Greek Catholic and Ukrainian Orthodox churches, and the Maronite, Chaldean, Assyrian, Coptic, Armenian and Ethiopian churches.

Still, this is desperately sad news, news long expected but nonetheless difficult to receive with equanymity.
It's no big deal. The C of E allowed divorce in 1857, contraception in 1930, and remarriage of divorced persons during the lifetime of the other spouse in - I think - 2002.
So allowing gay "marriages" is a logical further step. The C of E began with the lust of a king who put away his lawful wife so he could commit adultery with less oppsition; so it might as well allow same-sex "marriage".
 
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The Liturgist

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It's no big deal. The C of E allowed divorce in 1857, contraception in 1930, and remarriage of divorced persons during the lifetime of the other spouse in - I think - 2002.
So allowing gay "marriages" is a logical further step. The C of E began with the lust of a king who put away his lawful wife so he could commit adultery with less oppsition; so it might as well allow same-sex "marriage".

That’s a fallacious and unfair characterization of the Church of England, which my friend @Paidiske pointed out in another thread, and which ignores the extreme piety of Anglicans such as John Wesley, Dr. Edward Pusey, Rev. Percy Dearmer, Dom Gregory Dix and CS Lewis, not to mention the attempts by Non-Jurors and later by Anglo Catholics to unite with my church to form a Western Orthodox Church, which resulted in the Orthodox Western Rite churches operated by the Antiochian, Romanian, and ROCOR Eastern Orthodox churches and by the Oriental Orthodox Syriac Orthodox church missions in Sri Lanka.

Also despite this unpleasant news concerning the C of E, Rome has put itself in exactly the same position with Fiducia Supplicans, which is a clear step on the same trajectory.
 
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The Liturgist

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I thought that the ACNA

The ACNA yes, the Continuing Anglicans, not as far as my friend @Shane R has indicated, with the exception of a group in California which regards the Episcopal Church as being homophobic and seeks to rectify this by using the NZ prayer book.

Nonetheless the ordination of women in the mainline Anglican community allows women like my friend @Paidiske to engage in liturgical worship, and my nuanced position on the ordination of women supports this. In particular it ticks me off when people try to discredit her ministry or deny her status. Its not as though there is any shortage of parishes even in the C of E which do not allow for female clergy.
 
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Shane R

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I thought that the ACNA and Continuing Anglican churches varied in whether they ordain women as bishops, priests, and deacons.
The ACNA has thus far made the bishopric a line in the sand and kept it exclusive to males. Women's ordination to other offices of the ministry is handled by diocesan canon law. The exception would be the Reformed Episcopal Church, which operates as an independent church at times, as dioceses at other times, and as a constituent of ACNA when it suits them.

REC has a robust 'deaconess' program with 5 or 6 ladies in the role. It is a trained and licensed lay ministry, somewhat comparable to a reader or verger in the preparation and manner of designation, with defined duties. Not wishing to quote the REC's documents at length, I shall note only that they do not serve a liturgical function within the Holy Communion service, which is a distinct difference from the role of the many female deacons in ACNA. Most Continuing churches also make provisions for this deaconess ministry in theory if not always practice. The Continuing churches have not ordained women to any of the 3 holy orders.

The approach of both factions to gays is probably best analyzed on a case by case basis, both in terms of the gay person coming to the church and the parish that is having to interact with them. I've seen everything from closeted clergy to clergy who thinks the Muslims might be onto something with some of the practices the Taliban and hardcore Shia use to discipline gays.
 
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