The Christian Naturist movement?

[mthomas]

jochanaan,

I did not sense that you were in any way offensive in the way you spoke. I felt you spoke out of your own experience, and from your own heart. In fact, the stuff of which I was speaking had pretty well ended before you began.

I did feel that in the previous round of posts people simply talked past each other, not really listening, causing more smoke than fire. Well meaning, but not connecting. That is sad, for all were Christians, I believe.

 

[jochanaan]

Thank you, mthomas! That means something to me.

 

[Natman]

I knew when this topic was opened up in this "Christian-only" area there would be many that denounce Christian-naturism based on "traditional" beliefs and not on scriptural evidence, and that, out of frustration, there would be considerable name calling etc.

I am not put off by such activity because I was exactly the same way until I became willing to open the Bible and research what God has to say (or not say) on the topic. Not surprisingly, my conclusion was the same as several here that have done exactly that.

I believe that those that are counter to the idea of being both spiritually and especially physically naked before God and others are sincere in their love for God, scripture and their concern for other believers. However, they have bought into some of the same principles that Jesus rebuked the Pharisees for, primarily being more concerned about man-made tradition and about what is on the outside more than what is in our hearts.

I was never what I would call "addicted" to pornography, at least to the extent that I have seen others. However, I have seen my share and can attest to it's draw in a search for the next better looking woman or raucous sexual scene. I can unequivocally say that since I have been involved in naturism from a Christian perspective, I have not had even the slightest twinkling of a desire to seek out pornography, and actually get very frustrated when I trip across it in the name of naturism and even Christianity.

Son-cerely,
Nathan Powers

 

[paleodoxy]

I have enjoyed the exchanges, brothers. Natman, thank you for supplying the link to the article on lust. I will save and read it. I believe it was "amx" who objected to naturism from the standpoint of "modesty". The "Wholesome Nudity" page has an excellent one-page article on modesty from I Tim.2:9, but I cannot seem to find it anymore. I heard that the website switched locations, but I haven't been able to find or access that new location. Could you perhaps provide any direction on this?


paleodoxy

 

[Natman]

I can't find the site anymore either. Sorry.

Nathan Powers

 

[paleodoxy]

Well, anyway, I'll do my best to at least encapsulate the essence of the article's message. The article on "modesty" (from I Tim.2:9) points out that the etymological underpinnings of the word are related to the Greek word, "cosmos" which, in context, connotes "circumspectness". In short, "modesty" is not about a static set of rules, but has to do with that which is appropriate given the nature of the circumstances or situation. IOW, it would be "immodest" to attend a rock concert in a tuxedo, a church service in your bathing suit, an opera in tank top and flip-flops, etc. However, nakedness could be appropriate on a clothes-free beach, in a casual setting with like-minded friends or family..whatever.

That was basically the gist of it.

And remember, Paul and Barnabas publicly exposed themselves to the Laodiceans in Acts 14:12-15, so Paul couldn't have been condemning nudity PER SE in I Tim.2:9

Jonathan

 

[Aras]

I hate coming into the middle of a discussion but I just thought I should post my opinion, I personally see no problem with it. Modesty is in the eye of the beholder, for instance if a woman were to go in the Middle East in a short sleeve shirt that would be considered inappropriate Yet in America it is fine, I think the same thing applies to nudity.

 

[paleodoxy]

Aras,

Of course, as a Christian, and as one who has more recently become sympthetic to naturism...I couldn't agree with you more

I'm glad you gave your opinion! When I resuscitated this thread, I asked how many people following the thread were sympathetic to or still opposed naturism, with the intent to elicit a 'yea' or 'nay' one way or another. Almost consider it a poll question.

I'm not necessarily expecting reasons for conclusions drawn, or a debate (though that is welcome also).

So what say you, guys and gals?

Don't be shy!

paleodoxy

 

[Natman]

And remember, Paul and Barnabas publicly exposed themselves to the Laodiceans in Acts 14:12-15, so Paul couldn't have been condemning nudity PER SE in I Tim.2:9

Jonathan

In all fairness, I (who support Christian naturism) do not see that Acts 14:12-15 supposes that Paul and Barnabas "exposed themselves".

Acts 14:14

KJV
"Which when the apostles, Barnabas and Paul, heard of, they rent their clothes, and ran in among the people, crying out,..."

NIV
"But when the apostles Barnabas and Paul heard of this, they tore their clothes and rushed out into the crowd, shouting..."

NASB
"But when the apostles Barnabas and Paul heard of it, they tore their robes and rushed out into the crowd, crying out..."

I could not find a version or commentary that indicated they did anything more than to "tear" their clothing.

Son-cerely,
Nathan Powers

 

[Natman]

When I resuscitated this thread, I asked how many people following the thread were sympathetic to or still opposed naturism, with the intent to elicit a 'yea' or 'nay' one way or another. Almost consider it a poll question.

You could start a new thread in this "Christian-Only" section.

I started some in other areas of these and other forums...

Naturism - Outdoors & Nature
Do you ever enjoy Naturism?
www.christianforums.com/t1994853
Yes. All the time. 37.93%
Yes. Some times. 27.59%
Haven't tried it yet, but I would like to 4.60%
No. Tried it once. Didn't like it. 1.15%
No. I would NEVER try it 28.74%

Naturism - Christian
http://faithcommunitynetwork.com/m_430041/mpage_1/tm.htm
Do you ever enjoy Christian Naturism?
Yes. All the time. 8%
Yes. Some times. 10%
Haven't tried it yet, but I would like to. 3%
No. Tried it once but didn't like it. 0%
No. I would NEVER try it. 78%

Skinny Dipping - Christian Outdoors & Nature
www.christianforums.com/t2079661
As a Christian, have you ever gone skinny dipping?
Yes. All the time. Alone or in a crowd. 8.11%
Yes. Sometimes. Alone or in a crowd. 32.43%
Yes. All the time, but only alone. 0%
Yes. Sometimes, but only alone. 10.81%
Never. 48.65%

Skinny Dipping - Christian
http://faithcommunitynetwork.com/m_450928/mpage_1/tm.htm
If you are a Christian, have you ever gone skinny dipping?
Yes. All the time. Alone or in a crowd. 1%
Yes. Sometimes. Alone or in a crowd. 22%
Yes. All the time, but only alone. 4%
Yes. Sometimes, but only alone. 20%
Never. 50%

Skinny Dipping - General Outdoors & Nature
www.christianforums.com/t2079688
Have you ever gone skinny dipping?
Yes. All the time. Alone or in a crowd. 8.70%
Yes. Sometimes. Alone or in a crowd. 41.30%
Yes. All the time, but only alone. 2.17%
Yes. Sometimes, but only alone. 15.22%
Never. 32.61%

Son-cerely,
Nathan Powers

 

[paleodoxy]

Hi, Nathan:

My conclusion regarding the nature of Paul and Barnabus's action in Acts 14 is informed by vs. 15b., which sheds light on the extent of their exposure: "We also are men of like passions with you..."

Further, the occasion of this action was induced by an attempt on the part of the Greeks to sacrifice to Paul and Barnabus as gods (vv.12-13). How would merely "tearing" ones clothes be sufficient as a physical demonstration of their humanity?

Finally, I have read commentators who support this interpretation, just so everyone knows I'm not inventing this idea out of thin air.

Jonathan

 

[paleodoxy]

So...no takers???

paleodoxy

 

[Natman]

So...no takers???

paleodoxy

Sorry. Fell asleep.

Tearing of the close was a typical way of displaying humility, sorrow or angst in the OT Hebrew culture. I don't think this passage implies that they ripped their clothes off to show that they were "fully" human.

 

[paleodoxy]

Hi, Nat:

My question was actually in reference to my earlier appeal to non-naturist believers...but thanks for offering your opinion on the Acts 14 passage. I agree with your first sentence, but I think Acts 14 reveals a unique case, involving more than a mere gesture of "angst" or "humility".

I suppose we've reached an impasse, brother

paleodoxy

 

[Natman]

Here's an article on a Christian naturist development currently underway in Pasco County, Florida....

Christian nudists to build village in Florida
Phil Barnoti Wahba
Columbia News Service
Dec. 6, 2005 06:29 PM


There are a few things that I would disagree with in the article...

Christian nudism might sound like an oxymoron, but for thousands of devout followers, living and worshipping naked is at the core of their faith.

Those that I have talked to proclaim that Jesus Christ is the "core of their faith", as is pointed out by one of the interviewees, Johnathan Palmiter, who's quote is used to close the article...

"I am a Christian first, a naturist second," Palmiter said.

The author, Phil Wahba even interviewed me for about thirty minutes, resulting in two sentences followed by the statement...

To reconcile being a good Christian with their need to be nude, many of the faithful turn to prayer and follow their own spiritual path. Some are led away from their particular denominations.

Very fiew of the Christian naturists I have talked to have left their denominations, although several have switched congregations for various reasons.

Other than that, I think he did a pretty good job of trying to stay objective.

 

[Natman]

WOW!!!

It's been 24 hours and NOBODY has made a comment about this article.

Based on the hoopla it caused when it first came out, I figured there would be at least one comment out of this crowd.

Another article recently came out of the Times in the U.K. on Dec 18th...

Christians strip to build a new Eden
Tony Allen-Mills, New York
The Sunday Times
December 18, 2005

"Despite howls of complaint from fundamentalists who have likened Martin to the Antichrist — and described his nudist plans as “graphic evidence of America’s moral collapse” — Natura intends to build 50 houses around a non-denominational church where clothing for services will be optional."

What say ye?

 

[jochanaan]

Well, I'd just like to know who compared Mr. Martin to "the Antichrist"! And how they got that badly mistaken idea.

 

[Natman]

Bill Martin was on MSNBC's Situation with Tucker Carlson
Dec 22, 2005

Here's the transcript of the conversation...

CARLSON: Welcome back. If you've ever wondered what it's like to bare your soul to God, my next guest might be able to tell you.
Bill Martin is planning to open a 200-acre nudist camp for Christians in the state of Florida. Mr. Martin, who is clothed tonight, joins us like in Tampa to talk about his plan.

Mr. Martin, thanks for coming on.

BILL MARTIN, OPENING CHRISTIAN NUDIST CAMP: Thank you very much, Tucker.

CARLSON: What is the connection between nudity and the gospel?

MARTIN: Well, let's go back to the very beginning, when Christ was on Earth. I guess the first instance that you can read in the scriptures is when he watches his disciples' feet in John. I think it's John 13. Christ removed his garments, plural, at least in the traditional versions of the Bible, put a towel around him, and washed his disciples' feet.

Peter was fishing nude. If you go back to the early Christian at the time, it was nothing for everyone to work in the hot fields completely nude. They couldn't afford clothing.

CARLSON: But we can, and I just wonder. Let me read you a quote from you.

MARTIN: Sure. It may or may not be a quote. Some of the things have not been my quotes.

CARLSON: Tell me if you said this. “We are not a group that wants a sexual atmosphere. There is absolutely no relationship,” you say, “between nudity and sex.”

And that just strikes me as untrue. People when they're naked think about sex.

MARTIN: That's absolutely not true.

CARLSON: Huh.

MARTIN: And if you—I'm a member of a club in central Florida. I would suggest that just the opposite is true, that the clothing that we wear and the clothing that is manufactured today in itself to a large degree generates lust. When you are around people that are totally naked, and you've been around 20 or 300, here in this country, and I've probably been abroad more, where it's very, very popular, you don't have that.

I want to read one thing: hiding a body part doesn't stop others from lust. It generates lust. Nobody gets excited at the sight of ankles any more. And remember, it wasn't long ago that ankles had to be covered up. If we saw breasts or other parts of the human body at any time, it would normalize them. It would eliminate lust.

Three or four years ago, the triple A had in their tour book in France, and I cannot find it anymore, but we were in France, it said that nudity is so common in France that they can't sell a copy of “Playboy.” When my wife and I were in France I guess 18 months ago, we were there for a week, and I went into every magazine rack I could find, and I could not find a copy of “Playboy” or a copy of anything similar.

CARLSON: Huh.

MARTIN: I'm sure you can.

CARLSON: The French are just naked all the time?

MARTIN: Well, no, not naked all the time any more than I'm naked all the time. I'm sitting here with clothes on, as I am most of the time now. It's too darn cold down here in Florida.

CARLSON: Are you naked in church?

MARTIN: No. I'm not naked in church. I've been to one service which I've been nude, but most of the time, I'm more comfortable in clothes in church. There's times when—my point is, there's nothing wrong with nudity, and that nudity is actually a better way of life and it reduces some of the sexual crimes that we think about, and most Americans, including myself all want to eliminate.

We have that in common. We want to eliminate the sexual offenders. We want to eliminate the sexual offenses. We want to eliminate pornography, and so forth.

And I would suggest that nudity per se is an antidote to pornography. I've had so many testimonies—they're on my web site—from people that, once they found it, (link deleted) and have been on it for awhile, they've come back and written testimonies, how they've able to do away completely with their need for pornography.

CARLSON: Bill Martin, a nudist, also a Christian.

MARTIN: I don't call myself a nudist. I call myself a naturist.

CARLSON: All right.

MARTIN: Which is a little broader.

CARLSON: All right. A naturist, Bill Martin, joining us from Florida tonight, a man who is often naked and not ashamed. Thanks a lot for joining us.

MARTIN: Thank you.

The actual transcript is available at...
http://msnbc.msn.com/id/10616400

I also have hi-res and low-res video links if you are intersted.

Based on a blog from another website, this is what transpired just prior to the interview...

Bill Martin on the Tucker Carlson MSNBC show, Thursday, December 23, 2005.

On Thursday, Bill Martin received a call from the producers of the Tucker Carlson, “The Situation” show aired nightly on MSNBC at 11 p.m. EST. They wanted him to appear as a guest 48 hours later to discuss Natura and Naturism. The producer indicated she had seen the articles in the London Times, perhaps the world’s leading English speaking newspaper.

After consulting with his Board and members of the AANR staff, he agreed. At 9 p.m. MSNBC sent a limousine to transport Bill Martin from Venice, FL to the Tampa Public Broadcasting Stations where he would speak.

A member of the staff had promised to call at about 6 p.m. to “prep” me. They never did so I went to the studio not knowing what was going to be asked. In the preliminary announcements, I could see that it wasn’t intended to be pleasant. Tucker in announcing the guests referred to Natura and Bill Martin as weird. But a few minutes before I was scheduled at 9:20 and during an ad, he came on to speak to me personally and privately. In that 2 minute discussion, I mentioned the Quaker camps in New England. He immediately responded –" Are you referring to the Farm and Wilderness Camps – of my God, my best friends all went there – I forgot."

So when I came on his tone changed completely, he was totally respectful and I never talked about Natura – only about Naturism and Christianity. He obviously had a whole set of different questions which he didn’t use. After the briefer interview he came back to me (during more ads) and spoke again – very pleasant and again brought up the Quaker camps and gave me the names of his four best friends “who always ran around naked”. He also knew enough about the Quakers to state that they were all “birthright” Quakers – few people outside of Quakers would ever use that term. Clearly I was no longer a bit weird. He also had never tried to relate to the sexual offenses in the US vs Europe and was quite taken back by the figures I gave him privately.

I think one of the important things is to always find a common point of agreement. We both wanted to reduce pornography. We both wanted to reduce sexual offenses. And I proffered evidence that naturism does that - and for that he was grateful.

I am thankful to INA and Corky Stanton with whom I spoke a couple of times yesterday as I was able to read one very important sentence from Corky’s writings as presented on the clothesfree pages. I added a few words:

Hiding a body part doesn’t stop lust. IT GENERATES LUST. Nobody gets excited at the sight of ankles anymore. If we saw breasts all the time, or other body parts (added), it would normalize them. True modesty is chaste nudity. IT IS AN ANTIDOTE TO PORNOGRAPHY.

In my judgement, this really seemed to catch the attention of Tucker Carlson, a very conservative, young (36 years old), Libertarian and Christian host.

Now I wonder if I made a mistake in turning down the requests last year from the Bill O’Reilly show as it has such a tremendous audience.

We have a CD rom on the show, and it is being transposed to MP3 format so we can link it to one or more web sites but that will be after Christmas.

I do know that my dreams of doing a series of educational 5-7 minute talk shows is essential. The local studio producer was Polish. When I told him what I was speaking about he wasn’t excited or otherwise. When I finished, he came up to me and thanked me and agreed 100% and stated most people are just afraid to speak up. How true.

Bill Martin

 

[The wonderful me]

I’ve taken some time to read this thread and feel I should put in my comments here. First and foremost I would like to address the issue of being a nudist/naturist vs. being a Christian.

There are many passages in the bible that talk about nudity there are generally two words that are used when nudity is mentioned. One refers to generally being nude, the other is in a sexual context. Of all the versus I have read the only ones that are condemned are those referring to nudity dealing with sexual acts.

I would have to question the attitude that being a naturist and a Christian is paramount to being involved with a cult. There are many times when I have enjoyed being nude for comfort. I have gone to clothing optional beaches so I can work on my tan while being nude, but it has never been a sexual issue for me.

I have a friend that is a nudist and one of the strongest Christians I know. We talked about this at length and he made several good points. First is that it’s more about a person’s mindset. "If you think that being nude is sinful then you will think of others being nude as sinners. If you believe that everyone that is a nudist is involved in it for sexual recreation then you are unaware of the millions that are not, but are involved simply because it’s more comfortable for them."

He also stated that there have been many unsaved people that he has been able to witness to that would otherwise consider it offensive to have somebody else talking to them about Salvation. "Most unsaved nudists feel that Christians will condemn them for being a nudist, but if I, as a nudist, witness to them they will listen to what I have to say more willingly because they know I’m not going to condemn."

"If you see nudity as an ungodly thing then what do you do with God’s commanding Isaiah to go unclothed for three years? Would God command his servants to commit a sin? Of course not."

"Christianity is about living a life honoring to God. Christian Nudity is about living a life that is honoring to God, but doing so without clothes on. We see our bodies as one of God’s creations, not something sinful."

"If you think about it, raising a child as a nudist is going to avoid a lot of sexual curiosity. It removes the child’s wondering about what the opposite gender looks like naked. It removes the ‘Show me yours and I’ll show you mine’ frame of mind. That situation often leads to physical exploration, which often leads to sexual activities."

There are many such points that he made, all of which did make me think about this in detail and do my own research. But of all the comments he made the one I found the most helpful is, "Not everybody is comfortable being unclothed. Some people will go with shorts on, some people won’t take their shoes. The main point is to do what you think God is telling you to do. If you feel comfortable being unclothed, both physically and spiritually, then do so. If you don’t then don’t. When we stand before God we will answer for what we did or did not do."

Just some things for you to think about.

 

[Natman]

In some respects Christian Naturism is akin to the argument about drinking alcoholic wine or eating certain meats. If you are comfortable with it and it does not cause you to lust or to misuse it in an immoral way, then it can be seen as a gift from God.

Some of the points you make are certainly good or appropriate reasons to consider naturism.

"If you think about it, raising a child as a nudist is going to avoid a lot of sexual curiosity. It removes the child’s wondering about what the opposite gender looks like naked. It removes the ‘Show me yours and I’ll show you mine’ frame of mind. That situation often leads to physical exploration, which often leads to sexual activities."

Some reports actually indicate that families that raise their children in naturist households experience, among other benefits, delayed age of sexual experimentation, fewer unwanted pregnancies and abortions, fewer stds, less tendencies toward anti-social behavior and a generally better outlook on life. Just imagine if such a lifestyle could be lived in a close relationship with God as well.

I think THAT is something that Bill Martin is trying to do in Florida.