The Adolescent Style in American Politics

[iluvatar5150]

https://archive.is/2025.02.26-203916/https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2025/02/trump-masculinity/681828/#selection-695.0-695.41

To a certain kind of guy, Donald Trump epitomizes masculine cool. He’s ostentatiously wealthy. He’s married to his third model wife. He gets prime seats at UFC fights, goes on popular podcasts, and does more or less whatever he wants without consequences.

That certain kind of guy who sees Trump as a masculine ideal? That guy is a teenage boy.

Much has been written about Trump’s widening appeal to men, and to young men in particular. MAGA, the story goes, is making masculinity great again. But the version of manhood on display not just from Trump but from many of his closest advisers and appointees isn’t the kind of traditional manhood championed by his vice president, J. D. Vance; it’s a manhood imagined by adolescent boys. (Although of course, plenty of adolescent boys do not look up to Trump.) And at his core, Trump is an adolescent president, surrounded by adolescent flunkies, cheered into office by adolescent men.​

IMO, this article really nails what I and a lot of folks on my side see as problematic about the MAGA movement. It's not just that we disagree with its policies (we do); it's that their entire approach towards everything is so juvenile.

 

[Laodicean60]

I know the left beta males bobblehead yes to this verbiage is this a different angle to the toxic masculinty that I've heard in the past. Remember the debate you had two grown men calling each other names like children do?

 

[durangodawood]

"The masculinity of MAGA, though, is far worse: It rejects commitment and virtue, but still demands power and respect...."

Thats a pretty good quote from the article.

 

[iluvatar5150]

I know the left beta males bobblehead yes to this verbiage is this a different angle to the toxic masculinty that I've heard in the past. Remember the debate you had two grown men calling each other names like children do?

I wouldn't say this is the same as "toxic masculinity" - one can be mature and extremely toxic - though I think they're related. I think it's more accurate to say that this immaturity leads folks to lionize the toxic elements traditionally associated with masculinity.

But the "left beta male" insult is nice and particularly laughable when you look at how the right is supplicating themselves to Trump, Musk, and their acolytes. Many (including Musk apparently) have completely reversed their worldview because of some butthurt over shifting cultural tides, and of the people on the right who know better (supposedly large in number), few are standing up to say that any of what they're doing is wrong. Profiles in courage, indeed.

 

[Laodicean60]

But the "left beta male" insult is nice and particularly laughable when you look at how the right is supplicating themselves to Trump, Musk, and their acolytes.

Are you saying the left doesn't do this for their guy? You may be an alpha and took it as an insult, but the reason I brought this up is that it was left-wing media that amplified the "masculinity" in the past, which is stupid to me. Why even talk about someone's masculinity? It just doesn't compute unless we are trying to divide. I got the post. All in all, in a lot of words, the left is saying all the MAGA are immature. Am I MAGA because I voted for him?

Many (including Musk apparently) have completely reversed their worldview because of some butthurt over shifting cultural tides, and of the people on the right who know better (supposedly large in number), few are standing up to say that any of what they're doing is wrong. Profiles in courage, indeed.

Do you mean shifting cultural tides of marriage, homosexuality, and illegal immigration? I personally think all politicians go where the wind blows and will say anything for the vote. I've been here 1.5 years, and rarely do I hear any criticism about their tribe except for a small minority.

 

[iluvatar5150]

Are you saying the left doesn't do this for their guy?

You may get bits of it here and there on the left, but not remotely to the same degree as what we've seen with Trump and Musk. I've had multiple people here on CF argue to me that Musk should be trusted merely because he's rich, that I, as a poor, am not in a position to question him.

The right has always had a tendency to fawn over celebrities to a greater degree than they care to admit, but this thing with Trump, and now Musk, is something special. The left fawns over celebrities in the broader culture, but that mostly doesn't extend to politics, where we (and I say "we" very loosely; I don't consider myself a leftist) tend to get attached to ideas and policies rather than individuals.

You may be an alpha and took it as an insult,

I interpreted it as an insult because that's typically how the term "beta" is used.

but the reason I brought this up is that it was left-wing media that amplified the "masculinity" in the past,

They did? When?

which is stupid to me. Why even talk about someone's masculinity? It just doesn't compute unless we are trying to divide.

I can only recall "masculinity" being a topic of conversation among the left-leaning media in the context of its toxicity. I don't recall them boosting traditional masculinity in decades.

Am I MAGA because I voted for him?

Others may disagree, but I would not say that voting for Trump, by itself, is sufficient to brand somebody as a MAGA follower.

Do you mean shifting cultural tides of marriage, homosexuality, and illegal immigration?

No, I meant something more broad than that. One one hand, the Left got more anti-billionaire, anti-CEO, and anti-tech-bro, while the Right got more anti-Left, and they decided it was easier to realign themselves with the Right.

 

[rambot]

https://archive.is/2025.02.26-203916/https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2025/02/trump-masculinity/681828/#selection-695.0-695.41

​

To a certain kind of guy, Donald Trump epitomizes masculine cool. He’s ostentatiously wealthy. He’s married to his third model wife. He gets prime seats at UFC fights, goes on popular podcasts, and does more or less whatever he wants without consequences.​

​

That certain kind of guy who sees Trump as a masculine ideal? That guy is a teenage boy.​

​

Much has been written about Trump’s widening appeal to men, and to young men in particular. MAGA, the story goes, is making masculinity great again. But the version of manhood on display not just from Trump but from many of his closest advisers and appointees isn’t the kind of traditional manhood championed by his vice president, J. D. Vance; it’s a manhood imagined by adolescent boys. (Although of course, plenty of adolescent boys do not look up to Trump.) And at his core, Trump is an adolescent president, surrounded by adolescent flunkies, cheered into office by adolescent men.​

IMO, this article really nails what I and a lot of folks on my side see as problematic about the MAGA movement. It's not just that we disagree with its policies (we do); it's that their entire approach towards everything is so juvenile.

The 'I know you are but what am I?" Thing is........


The gloating....still...

 

[rambot]

I know the left beta males bobblehead yes to this verbiage is this a different angle to the toxic masculinty that I've heard in the past.

Ahhh yes. Beta males.

Quote Andrew Tate for cred and to prove the point.

 

[rambot]

Do you mean shifting cultural tides of marriage, homosexuality, and illegal immigration? I personally think all politicians go where the wind blows and will say anything for the vote. I've been here 1.5 years, and rarely do I hear any criticism about their tribe except for a small ...

You've confused being in power with a cultural shift

There's been no cultural shift in ANY of these things in the last year. Everyone still feels the same, there are just different people in power

 

[Laodicean60]

The right has always had a tendency to fawn over celebrities

I don't think so. I remember when celebrities came in mass to rub elbows with the first black president, and it's all been downhill since then.

I interpreted it as an insult because that's typically how the term "beta" is used.

I was trying to be nice because I used to call them pansies, but I learned the term from the media and the attack on masculinity. But I will bow out now because there are bigger fish to fry with the Trump policies.

 

[iluvatar5150]

I don't think so. I remember when celebrities came in mass to rub elbows with the first black president, and it's all been downhill since then.

That doesn't contradict the parts of what I wrote that you left out.

I was trying to be nice because I used to call them pansies, but I learned the term from the media and the attack on masculinity.

You learned the term "pansy" from the media"? lol, I doubt that.

 

[Hans Blaster]

Are you saying the left doesn't do this for their guy? You may be an alpha and took it as an insult, but the reason I brought this up is that it was left-wing media that amplified the "masculinity" in the past, which is stupid to me. Why even talk about someone's masculinity? It just doesn't compute unless we are trying to divide. I got the post. All in all, in a lot of words, the left is saying all the MAGA are immature. Am I MAGA because I voted for him?

Do you mean shifting cultural tides of marriage, homosexuality, and illegal immigration? I personally think all politicians go where the wind blows and will say anything for the vote. I've been here 1.5 years, and rarely do I hear any criticism about their tribe except for a small minority.

I didn't click the link, but I'm going to guess from context this is Tom Nichols writing in The Atlantic. Nichols is, of course, a well known leftist professor...

... oh wait, no he isn't. He was a professor of international relations or something like that at the Naval War College.

 

[iluvatar5150]

I didn't click the link, but I'm going to guess from context this is Tom Nichols writing in The Atlantic. Nichols is, of course, a well known leftist professor...

... oh wait, no he isn't. He was a professor of international relations or something like that at the Naval War College.

Nope, Jill Filipovic.

 

[Hans Blaster]

Nope, Jill Filipovic.

Ahh. (Look out, an actual feminist!) Nichols had an article about Trump (and his fans) and masculinity a few years back.

 

[Laodicean60]

They did? When?

I believe during the women's lib movement.

That doesn't contradict the parts of what I wrote that you left out.

I wasn't contradicting; I was giving you my impression when I noticed Hollywood in politics, and they both do it why divide. This past election the DNC and the RNC conventions were a Hollywood fest. I never took stock of what a performer says because they are rich and out of touch.

You learned the term "pansy" from the media"? lol, I doubt that.

Sorry, I wasn't clear. I meant Beta males and from right-wing news more than likely. I learned the word pansy when I was a kid. Peace out.

 

[Landon Caeli]

https://archive.is/2025.02.26-203916/https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2025/02/trump-masculinity/681828/#selection-695.0-695.41

​

To a certain kind of guy, Donald Trump epitomizes masculine cool. He’s ostentatiously wealthy. He’s married to his third model wife. He gets prime seats at UFC fights, goes on popular podcasts, and does more or less whatever he wants without consequences.​

​

That certain kind of guy who sees Trump as a masculine ideal? That guy is a teenage boy.​

​

Much has been written about Trump’s widening appeal to men, and to young men in particular. MAGA, the story goes, is making masculinity great again. But the version of manhood on display not just from Trump but from many of his closest advisers and appointees isn’t the kind of traditional manhood championed by his vice president, J. D. Vance; it’s a manhood imagined by adolescent boys. (Although of course, plenty of adolescent boys do not look up to Trump.) And at his core, Trump is an adolescent president, surrounded by adolescent flunkies, cheered into office by adolescent men.​

IMO, this article really nails what I and a lot of folks on my side see as problematic about the MAGA movement. It's not just that we disagree with its policies (we do); it's that their entire approach towards everything is so juvenile.

A lot of folks in your side see this as problematic because your side is the sole base of the feminist movement. There really is no identifiable concept as an "adolescent style" in males. It's an imaginary concept invented by feminist women, and espoused by their male supporters to be insulting to non-feminists.

...IOW, any man who is not a feminist, is "immature" According to the feminist.

 

[iluvatar5150]

A lot of folks in your side see this as problematic because your side is the sole base of the feminist movement. There really is no identifiable concept as an "adolescent style" in males. It's an imaginary concept invented by feminist women, and espoused by their male supporters to be insulting to non-feminists.

...IOW, any man who is not a feminist, is "immature" According to the feminist.

lol wut? No.

The hallmarks of immaturity that the author describes, i.e. "high-risk, low-regulation, near-total disinhibition", are hallmarks of immaturity regardless of gender. What makes this an issue of "masculinity" is that there's a movement among some men to associate "traditional masculinity" with these characteristics of immaturity. I'm not aware of a similar movement among women to define femininity in this way.

 

[Landon Caeli]

lol wut? No.

The hallmarks of immaturity that the author describes, i.e. "high-risk, low-regulation, near-total disinhibition", are hallmarks of immaturity regardless of gender. What makes this an issue of "masculinity" is that there's a movement among some men to associate "traditional masculinity" with these characteristics of immaturity. I'm not aware of a similar movement among women to define femininity in this way.

It's an imaginary movement, that's entirely fictional.

Otherwise, you might describe the name of the founder of this movement, what they call themselves, and where they recruit.

...Or, you can just admit that what you see is the basic hallmarks of humanity, and feminists just don't like certain things about the nature of people.

 

[7thKeeper]

Ahh. (Look out, an actual feminist!) Nichols had an article about Trump (and his fans) and masculinity a few years back.

I will go off topic and discuss a different feminist from Finland. She is considered Finland's first feminist. Was a writer and a businesswoman in the 1800s.
Her name was Minna Canth.
So you can call her a feminist Canth and she won't mind.

 

[iluvatar5150]

It's an imaginary movement, that's entirely fictional.

Otherwise, you might describe the name of the founder of this movement, what they call themselves, and where they recruit.

...Or, you can just admit that what you see is the basic hallmarks of humanity, and feminists just don't like certain things about the nature of people.

lol, now there's a disingenuous demand if ever I've seen one. Since when does a movement have to be so formal and organized? As I look back through your post history, I find numerous examples of you using the word "movement" in the same way I did (e.g. 1, 2, 3, 4, 5), so it would seem to me that you have, at least in the past, accepted that a movement can be more nebulous that what you're demanding now.