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Speaking in Tongues

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Sword-In-Hand

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BT said:
Ok now THIS is the most ridiculous notion that I've ever heard.

ACK!

Baptists are AFRAID of the Holy Spirit? ROFL

Losing control of a service is not unGodly? ROFL (you need to read your Bible)

It assumed, because for a periord, the gifts were not being practiced. But the Lord in his timing brought it back. ?? Now who's giving "Man's opinion" (not to mention a totally unscriptural and silly opinion).

ACK!
I agree completely BT. I've never been afraid of the Holy Spirit and that is the most ridiculous statement I've ever heard. I've had numerous encounters with the Holy Spirit and never once have I lost control or started spurting off bablings that no one understood. If we want to talk context, we should look up what exactly tongues is and what it is not. I know for sure it is not all of this gibberish that people claim it is.

And honestly I don't think that we are taking any verse out of context ;).

So for me all of this "man's opinion" stuff deservers an.............."

Ooooooooooohhhhhhhhhhhhhaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaccccccccckkkkkkkkkk!

P.S. I'm writing all of this in good humor, so please no one take me the wrong way :D
 
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Sword-In-Hand

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That's a good question 9-Iron and one I can't answer. Here's something that baffles me about the whole speaking in tongues experience. I have friends who are Pentacostal and speak in tongues. I've been to their services where everyone "gets the Spirit" and pretty much loses control. People start running around and falling on the floor, jumping and shouting and then others start speaking in tongues. Well during all of this chaos I'm standing alone with my head bowed wondering how can all this be? I'm a child of God just as they are and we share the same Spirit, so if the Holy Spirit is moving in a room like they claim it is, shouldn't I feel the same thing? During these events of losing control, the only thing that overcomes me is a sense that God is not in the place at all, but something is....


Here is a funny story. My pastor has a friend who is fluent in Hebrew. He went to a tent revival where a two holiness preachers were preaching to the congregation. Soon the people began speaking in tongues and one of the two would interpret what they were saying. Well the guy who spoke Hebrew didn't believe that speaking in tongues still existed, so he jumps up (and I know this is kind of mean) and starts speaking in Hebrew. Well the holiness preacher looks at him and says "oh this man has just said that God has healed his mother and such and such." The man immediately starts laughing and says "no sir, that's not what I said at all. I said the 23rd Psalm in Hebrew is all." Shortly thereafter the tent revival was over...
 
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I have heard this story, or one very similar to it many times over the last 30 some years. However, I have never actually been able to verify it. It sounds like a spiritual urban legend. Not saying it coudn't happen since I also believe that most of the tongues are not real.

It also wouldn't really prove anything anyway since the whole thing is so subjective the believers would just say, well that preacher was not in the spirit at that time and so made a mistake.

The only thing we have to prove that the babbling you currently hear is from the Holy Spirit is that the believers say it is.....that's it. Very good for post modern thinking but it wouldn't hold up as evidence anywhere else.

It is my belief that most of the tongues currently practiced is self delusion. I know that is a hard statement, but it is not one that I have come to easily.
 
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9-iron

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That's a good question 9-Iron and one I can't answer. Here's something that baffles me about the whole speaking in tongues experience. I have friends who are Pentacostal and speak in tongues. I've been to their services where everyone "gets the Spirit" and pretty much loses control. People start running around and falling on the floor, jumping and shouting and then others start speaking in tongues. Well during all of this chaos I'm standing alone with my head bowed wondering how can all this be?
I agree with this. There 'can be' way to much choas in pentacostal & charasmatic circles. There is also way to much emphasis put on the gift. I also don't believe speaking in tongues is a requirement to be filled with the Holy Ghost.

It is my belief that most of the tongues currently practiced is self delusion. I know that is a hard statement, but it is not one that I have come to easily.
Okay, honesty is a good thing. I percieve you have spent some time looking into the issue. How did you come to your conclusion that tongues are delusional?


 
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OracleX

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There was something I experienced back in Bible college for one of the coarses I was taking. We had to observe denominations different from our own in things that they did. So a friend and myself went to a healing seminare (can't remember what group put it on). I was more than a little put off and at times it was all that I could do to keep myself from laughing or getting angry at times.

Basically they were treating gifts like typing skills. All you need is practice and some guidance. They said everyone had the ability to heal you just need to learn how to do it. It reminded me more of dare I saw casting healing then God granted healing. They had a certain prayer for it, there was a certain way to lay on your hands, there was you could say a recipe for successful healing.

During practice time I tell ya, if I got hit one more time in the head ...

My friend and myself left after about a hour of this and decided to scrap that experience for school and went to a Lutheran church service instead.
 
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Quote:




It is my belief that most of the tongues currently practiced is self delusion. I know that is a hard statement, but it is not one that I have come to easily.



Okay, honesty is a good thing. I percieve you have spent some time looking into the issue. How did you come to your conclusion that tongues are delusional?

Yes I have spent a lot of time looking into this. Many family members and close friends speak in tongues, I do have to be a little careful in our discussions because they are very easily offended by my belief that they are deluding themselves. I am a sincere christian and not an unbeliever at all.

I have had people lay hands on me to receive the "gift of tongues" two times. Both times I prayed that God would give me this gift if it was really from him but keep it from me if it wasn't. I refused to prime the pump (in one case I was told to start making sounds and then the Holy Spirit would take over).

I have listened to many people speak in tongues. None of the speaking sounds like a language at all. It all sounds like babble with nothing intelligible. I am absolutely convinced that a person could go to one of those services and with some practice do a bunch of babbling and no one would know the difference. I am not willing to do this myself because it would be mocking the others in the service but that fact enforces my belief that this can be delusional.

I have talked to many people about how they received the "gift of tongues" and in most cases it was something they strived for earnestly and desired so much to get that they tried real hard to start speaking in tongues. Also, in almost all cases they were very emotionally ready, (in other words they were in a highly emotional state). They were already convinced that this was a real gift from God. Since they are already convinced it is real and all the others around them are convinced that it is real the conditions for self delusion are extremely high.

Once they actually start speaking in tongues and do it publically or tell others that they are speaking in tongues privately they have a personal stake in it being real. So even if they have some doubts they tend to put them down because they are now committed.

I look back to how the tongues movements started and see meetings of extremely high emotion, powerful preaching, and leaders that I have to classify as unsteady.

Tongues speaking is practiced by other religions and cultures and it sounds the same.

After adding all this up, my personal experiences, my familys experiences, the fact that you need to be in a highly suggestable state of mind, the fact that it can be so easily faked, the questionable leadership in the origins of tongues, the fact that the only evidence that it is real is the word of the practicioners, the fact that other cultures also practice it and receive it in the same way, the questionable way it is used in most of the services I have been in, I make the personal conclusion that it is not of the Holy Spirit. I realize that this is a subjective conclusion because the above is all I have. On the other hand, the believers have even less...they have their experience.

After reaching the conclusion that it is not of the Holy Spirit I began to wonder if it was demonic. Although it could be demonic in some cases I don't think it is in most cases because I don't see the other signs in the personal lives of the practicioners that lead me to believe it is demonic. In most people who practice tongues I see a sincere desire to follow the Lord. They may be deluded in this regard but one of the reasons they are deluded is that they have such a sincere desire to follow God. And they continue with this sincere desire. So I don't think most of it is demonic.

After studying other people that are also deluded in their belief, (water witchers are one example), I began to see how easily it is for us to begin to believe something that isn't true and then cross the line to have a stake in that belief. Once we cross that line to where we have a stake in the belief, we will block out all evidence to the contrary and continue to delude ourselves.

I could go into this more but I am rambling and so will quit for now.
 
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9-iron

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JVD, I appreciate your approach. You don't come accross offensive in any way. I agree with you to a large degree that many people possibly are led by emotion or delusion. I also believe their are those that truly communicate to God through a angelic language.
 
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Another example of self-delusion in a church setting is the example of peoples reaction in Peter Popoff's ministry.

If you aren't familiar with Peter Popoff and his "ministry" you can watch a video here:

http://www.bible.ca/tongues-popoff-unmasked.ram

You will need to have realplayer installed to view it.

Anyway, this certified fake healer would touch people and supposedly heal them and they would drop like a rock....slain by the spirit. They believed that Peter Popoff had a very powerful annointing and so convinced that it was the Holy Spirit working through him, they would go down under the power when he touched them. The people were even healed, or at least they were convinced that they were healed.

But, Popoff was getting all his "words of knowledge" from his wife who was speaking into a low power transmitter that he was picking up in his hearing aid. He would call people by their name, tell them where they lived and then tell them what their ailment was. After that convincing word of knowledge, they would collapse when he touched them.

I hear he is still in "ministry" even after being exposed.

Of course, this really doesn't speak to the tongues question directly, but it does show how good christian people who are very sincere can be deluded to the point that they faint when they are touched by a "fake healer".
 
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Hisgirl

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Just dropping by and saw the thread. Thought you might be interested to know what Billy Graham says about tongues and all the other gifts...including sign gifts. Read his book...The Holy Spirit. You might be quite surprised to see that he said the gifts are for today and there's not one verse that supports tongues passing away. He said that it shouldn't be used in a divisive way and that....here's the kicker...."any church who forbids tongues is doing the church a disservice and appartantly going against the teachings of the Apostle Paul." Yep...that's basically word for word. Anyway, the book is really good and you'll find yourself questioning your own basis for believing the gifts are passed. There are many, many Baptist churches who do endorse the gifts...just not many Southern Baptist churches. Pastor James Robison comes to mind...he believes in the gifts and is a mighty teacher of the Lord. His background is solid Baptist. And before I leave...a little story for you. My friend attends a SBC in Birmingham, AL. They were discussing whether tongues were valid and a man spoke up in the sunday school class. He was at his home and suddenly felt an intense need to go into intercessory prayer...something was wrong...but he didn't know what or how to pray. When he opened his mouth to pray...strange words came out. He went with it and kept talking until he felt at peace. At that very moment, his young child was in the midst of a car accident on the other side of Birmingham....and wasn't harmed. It apprears the Holy Spirit spoke what needed to be spoken through him....And as for healing, I believe in that gift too. I've had a pastor who teaches about the gift lay hands on me and two medically documented things flat out disappeared....one was a 6-year nerve damage on my arm and the other was a tumor on my kidney. I spent my life in the SBC and I don't mind a little show of power through God's people one bit!
 
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ok read this whole thread.....

My first time dealling with tongues... was when Me and my wife were dating

I asked dad [strong in the Lord] about the subject

MY dad said

2 cor 5:7 for we walk by faith not by sight

Hebrew 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for , the evidence of things not seen
that all he said read it and believe it he said

yet being young in the Lord I still had questions .....

1 cor 13:10 is a verse used quite a bit

which is perfect is come
what does this mean Bible, Christ, Rapture.....ect ect

My brother who went to seminary had quite of greek and hebrew studies!!

Christ is masculine in greek
bible is female in greek

this perfect was a thing not a person he also said

Yet still questions my pastor and explained it best ..

In in context of verses 8 and 9 it refers to prophesy
thus explaining a ton in my mind

your afraid of tongues
please

I am afraid of misinterpting MY GOD

1 cor 14:33 talks about are God not the author of confusion but of peace

tongues where in play for the apostles to authentic THAT GOD impowered them and to spread the GOOD NEWS quickly ..... that why in ACT 2 you do not need interpeters



 
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Gift are for today but some gift are put aside since God said so

remember he gives and takes as he pleases

remember Gal 5:17 man has the internal battle every day even though we are renewed with new birth it not the full deal till we see HIM
 
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9-iron

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what Billy Graham says about tongues and all the other gifts...including sign gifts. Read his book...The Holy Spirit. You might be quite surprised to see that he said the gifts are for today and there's not one verse that supports tongues passing away. He said that it shouldn't be used in a divisive way and that....here's the kicker...."any church who forbids tongues is doing the church a disservice and appartantly going against the teachings of the Apostle Paul."
You wouldn't happen to have an online reference would you? It is interesting that Billy Graham endorses this gift.
 
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SumTinWong

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9-iron said:
You wouldn't happen to have an online reference would you? It is interesting that Billy Graham endorses this gift.
This book is still in print. I can tell you that is in the chapter called "the sign gifts" I will type some of it for you.

Billy Graham "The Holy Spirit" said:
While I do not pose as an expert on the subject of tongues, my opinions have come from my study of the Bible and from my experience and coversations with many people. Of one thing I'm certain: neither the Holy Spirit nor any of His gifts were given to divide believers. This does not mean that we ought not have our own opinions about what the Bible teaches on tongues. Or that we should not have local congregations in which prominence is given to tongues as well as those in which tongues are not prominent. But I am certain about one thing: when the gift of tongues is abused and becomes divisive, then something has gone wrong. Sin has come into the body of Christ...

Indeed, tongues is a gift of the Spirit. Today there are Presbyterians, Baptists, Anglicans, Lutherans, and Methodists, as well as Pentecostals, who speak or have spoken in tongues-or who have not, and expect to.

But if tongues is a gift of the Holy Spirit, it cannot be divisive in itself. When those who speak in tongues misuse it so that it becomes divisive, it indicates a lack of love. And those who forbid it do the Church a disservice because tehy appear to be contradicting the teaching of teh apostle Paul. Those believers who do speak in tongues and those who do not should love each other and work for the greater glory of God in the evangelization of the world, remembering one thing: those who speak in tongues and those who do not will live with each other in the New Jerusalem.

Is this a gift God has seen fit to give you? Don't let it be a source of pride or preoccupation. Become grounded in the whole Word of God. And above all learn what it means to love others, including believers who do not agree with your emphasis.

Is this a gift you do not have? Don't let it preoccupy you either, and don't let it be a source of division between you and other believers if at all possible. There may be other believers who have a different emphasis from you, but they are still your brothers and sisters in Christ.
Anyway this is just a short snipet of the chapter. I recommend the whole book to anyone.

PS: The emphasis are his, and the spelling mistakes are mine.
 
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