Shouldn't all Evangelicals want Christian Nationalism?

[o_mlly]

Do you think getting married is allowed O Mily? Have you sold all your possessions? Have you gouged out your eyes because you've likely looked at porn?

That cuts it. If your tradition has the Sacrament of Reconciliation, then consider availing yourself of it.

 

[eclipsenow]

Dr John Dickson - Phd in history, theologian, and apologetics podcaster for Undeceptions (although he hates the word apologetics), recently said on Facebook:

My only Christian commentary on the US election …​

Confident Christians know that the election of the US President—though important—is not the most important thing going on in the world right now, nor even the most important thing going on in America right now.​

Persuading people about Christ is infinitely more important, and it is not dependent on the election.​

One of the dominant themes of the Gospels, Acts, the Epistles, and Revelation is that the saving purposes of God in no way depend on political or structural power, and, indeed, can (and will) thrive even where God’s people are opposed by those powers.​

Of course, it’s wonderful to be able to vote for leadership/policies that more closely align with our values. But this new privilege mustn’t obscure the original vision of the New Testament: Persuasion, prayer, service, and suffering for the gospel are the principal means of God’s work in the world.​

Confident Christians are busy getting on with the main work, while also gratefully engaging with politics.​

Unconfident Christians, on the other hand …

John runs one of the most BRILLIANTLY produced podcasts I've ever heard - Christian or secular. He travels the world to interview the foremost thinkers on the interface between science, ethics, philosophy and faith. They somehow make even episodes about Medieval History interesting - even if it wasn't high on my 'need-to-know' radar at the time. (The one on the so-called "Dark Ages" was fascinating - all about how the very term is one of the most successful pieces of anti-church propaganda ever! There WERE no "Dark Ages"!)

But back to politics. This is a great episode where John covers more on our approach to politics. I highly encourage everyone to give it a go.

Tom Wright – known to most as N.T. Wright – is an acclaimed New Testament scholar and theologian, who served as archbishop of Durham between 2003 – 2010. He now works at Oxford as a senior research fellow with Wycliffe Hall and spends most of his spare time writing acclaimed works of theology (with currently over 80 works published).​

​

Political Jesus

Undeceptions Episode 122: How does Jesus engage with the political powers of the world? What does this mean for Christians in power?

undeceptions.com

 

[MarkSB]

It isn't that control of a society is necessary, but if you surrender institutions of power that has add on effects and the Church as it stands today is not strong enough to actually resist them. We like to appeal to the Christians under Rome as the example but so much of what the early Christians did would be considered horrendous by our modern standards, in how they excluded, made a clear distinction between who was part of the Church and who wasn't and in how they were prepared to resist Roman authority. Most American Christians could not dream of resisting America the way the early Christians resisted Rome and as a result said Christianity will die out. Which might not be a bad thing, as stronger Christians emerge whom are willing to challenge the current status quo.

My point isn't even that taking over the government is necessary, rather it's that Christians should not think themselves unworthy of power and exercising it for their own benefit. The Amish I'd say are perhaps one of the better examples of a movement out there, a Christian community that is growing and hates the world. They are prepared to sacrifice reliance on modernity and that is to their credit.

So... my thoughts are this: You proposed (in the post prior to this one) that Christians need to execute some measure of control over society at large in order to prevent worldly morals from infiltrating the church community. My opinion is that the "church" (or highly politicized groups of people within the church) are entirely too focused on this goal - and instead of it being a solution, that it is actually the problem, and is the cause of many of the ills within the church. If the American church were as focused on the gospel of Christ as it is on politics and culture wars... well that is a church that I would love to see.

That's not to say that Christians shouldn't participate in politics and bring spiritual views to the table - but as I previously mentioned, there has to be an understanding that our government is secular, and that the best way to protect freedom of religion is to protect it for every religion (not just Christianity).

Also - the manner in which you go about things matters. That is biblical. A fierce christian nationalist philosophy is - at it's core - aggressive, controlling, and discriminatory. In fact, I (and I wager many others) would say that there's nothing about it that is very Christian at all.

So yeah - I see your point that Christians should not be thinking that they are unworthy of being in government positions. But I think that a christian nationalist sentiment is an entirely different animal altogether. And if political power is the thing that Christians believe is going to make or break the church, then the church is already in trouble.

 

[Fervent]

If history tells us anything, the idea of Christendom completely fails to reflect the character of Christ. We, as individuals, need to behave as if Christ is already enthroned, but that does not mean that we need to seize the instruments of secular authoity. That is, of course, not even mentioning that "Christian" Nationalism is far more concerned with the Nationalism than with Christian values.

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

So... my thoughts are this: You proposed (in the post prior to this one) that Christians need to execute some measure of control over society at large in order to prevent worldly morals from infiltrating the church community. My opinion is that the "church" (or highly politicized groups of people within the church) are entirely too focused on this goal - and instead of it being a solution, that it is actually the problem, and is the cause of many of the ills within the church. If the American church were as focused on the gospel of Christ as it is on politics and culture wars... well that is a church that I would love to see.

That's not to say that Christians shouldn't participate in politics and bring spiritual views to the table - but as I previously mentioned, there has to be an understanding that our government is secular, and that the best way to protect freedom of religion is to protect it for every religion (not just Christianity).

Also - the manner in which you go about things matters. That is biblical. A fierce christian nationalist philosophy is - at it's core - aggressive, controlling, and discriminatory. In fact, I (and I wager many others) would say that there's nothing about it that is very Christian at all.

So yeah - I see your point that Christians should not be thinking that they are unworthy of being in government positions. But I think that a christian nationalist sentiment is an entirely different animal altogether. And if political power is the thing that Christians believe is going to make or break the church, then the church is already in trouble.

Before i give a thorough response. Do you think Christians should be passive, let others control them and inclusive?

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

If history tells us anything, the idea of Christendom completely fails to reflect the character of Christ. We, as individuals, need to behave as if Christ is already enthroned, but that does not mean that we need to seize the instruments of secular authoity. That is, of course, not even mentioning that "Christian" Nationalism is far more concerned with the Nationalism than with Christian values.

Do you separate yourself as an individual from the entirety of Christendom then?

 

[Fervent]

Do you separate yourself as an individual from the entirety of Christendom then?

Christendom has collapsed and been replaced, and it is best left in the annals of history for the atrocities that were committed in the name of Christ because of it.

 

[JEBofChristTheLord]

Do you separate yourself as an individual from the entirety of Christendom then?

The Lord separates some from national quasichristianists, in order that we become more obedient to Him.

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

Christendom has collapsed and been replaced, and it is best left in the annals of history for the atrocities that were committed in the name of Christ because of it.

So you do not associate at all with the Christians of history?

 

[Fervent]

So you do not associate at all with the Christians of history?

Not the ones who committed atrocities, no. You will know them by their fruits.

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

The Lord separates some from national quasichristianists, in order that we become more obedient to Him.

So no true Christian belongs to a Nation?

 

[JEBofChristTheLord]

So you do not associate at all with the Christians of history?

Which ones? Throughout the era of the church, there have been national quasichristianists, those that paste a few of the symbols of the Lord upon their devotion to that which is not holy, and others.

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

Not the ones who committed atrocities, no. You will know them by their fruits.

Interesting. Do you associate with any Christian who has sinned? Or are you the only Christian in history?

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

Which ones? Throughout the era of the church, there have been national quasichristianists, those that paste a few of the symbols of the Lord upon their devotion to that which is not holy, and others.

All Christians everywhere. Do you believe there were Christians before you Jeb?

 

[JEBofChristTheLord]

So no true Christian belongs to a Nation?

I am not interested in that word "Christian", because it is not a word we have it written that the Lord Himself used.

 

[Fervent]

So no true Christian belongs to a Nation?

We are sojourners and exiles. We belong to a kingdom not of this Earth.

 

[JEBofChristTheLord]

All Christians everywhere.

No, I am not tied to everyone everywhere who chooses to paste the word "Christian" upon themselves. I am tied only to those who are devoted to Christ the Lord in spirit and in truth.

Do you believe there were Christians before you Jeb?

I am not interested in that word "Christian", because it is not a word we have it written that Christ the Lord has said.

 

[Fervent]

Interesting. Do you associate with any Christian who has sinned? Or are you the only Christian in history?

Interesting that you try to equivocate sinning with committing atrocities. Do you not believe that a good tree will not produce bad fruit?

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

We are sojourners and exiles. We belong to a kingdom not of this Earth.

Do you take this phrase to mean we cannot belong to earthly nations or communities and that the two are mutually exclusive?

Interesting that you try to equivocate sinning with committing atrocities. Do you not believe that a good tree will not produce bad fruit?

I am asking the question, are you in communion with sinners? Or are there certain sins no Christian will have or will commit?
To my mind, there are Christians who are guilty of many sins, myself included. It doesn't invalidate them as being Christian.

 

[Fervent]

Do you take this phrase to mean we cannot belong to earthly nations or communities and that the two are mutually exclusive?

Friendship with the world is enmity to Christ.

I am asking the question, are you in communion with sinners? Or are there certain sins no Christian will have or will commit?
To my mind, there are Christians who are guilty of many sins, myself included. It doesn't invalidate them as being Christian.

Certainly Christians are guilty of all manner of sin, but that doesn't mean we should identify with and repeat the errors of those that preceded us. There were false brothers since the inception of the church, so I wouldn't identify myself with other believers directly. If we share in Christ, then we share in each other. But my identity is found in Christ, not other Christians.