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Should we deny the poor.......

Robert65

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But we (non-addicts) are supposed to continually turn our pockets inside out to help those who have chosen to use regardless of the known risk of addiction.

The cost can be higher if we do not. Harm Reduction programs cost money but based upon the stats I have seen reduce crime. I would rather pay to have an addict in a harm reduction program than having them run amuck on the streets robbing people to get cash for their daily fix.

When Moa took over China he made drug dealing illegal, actually executing many drug dealers. Many opium addicts were sent to small villages in the countryside and allowed to smoke themselves to death away from the general population. This worked very well then (however lately China has a growing drug problem). We should use that model, including the death penalty for dealers.

Drug dealers should be harshly dealt with, not sure I support death though. Sending drug users to small villages to die does not seem the Christian thing to do from my POV.
 
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DogmaHunter

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Lots of jobs were taken overseas that the less skilled used to do . So the mega corporations could make even more profits .When people are on welfare this causes them to have low self esteem so a lot turn to drugs to feel better. The people need to demand these mega corporations can't leave the country and the people who got them there and stop them from getting so big they squeeze out the small businesses that are back bone of the middle class.

How do you plan on "forcing" big companies to not leave the country?
 
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Holoman

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The use is not the cause of the addiction. Locking up addicts in rehab does not work as you can lead a horse to water but cannot make it drink. I was sent to treatment at least 3 times to no effect as it was not my choice and I had no intention to stop.

I'd agree that you cannot force an addict to stop. That is why it is not a purely medical problem. When addicts are not willing to stop and refuse to stop committing crimes to fund their habit, then I see no problem with locking them up.

Those three times were just mini vacations and the moment I was out the door I picked up right where I left off. When I quit abusing drugs was when I hit rock bottom and came a finger twitch from blowing my head off. I quit when I was ready to and it was my choice.

Again, I'd agree with you that beating addiction begins with a choice. This is not a purely medical condition, it is a result of the addicts choices.

The problem with choice is few are ever able to summon the stregnth to stop. I was lucky as I was 22 and was not a hard drug user thus the hook was not firmly set, if it had been then I would not be talking to you as I would be dead or locked up in prison by now. Treatment works for at best 10% of people and I am being generous here as the more realistic number is probibly around 5%. I have been interested in the Harm Reduction programs in other countries that have yielded promising results.

I've no doubt it's incredibly difficult to stop. And another problem is that the addiction usually has an underlying cause, such as low self-esteem or a wish to block out something from their mind, that is incredibly difficult to remedy as well.
 
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OldWiseGuy

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The cost can be higher if we do not. Harm Reduction programs cost money but based upon the stats I have seen reduce crime. I would rather pay to have an addict in a harm reduction program than having them run amuck on the streets robbing people to get cash for their daily fix.

If it includes confinement I'm all for it.

Drug dealers should be harshly dealt with, not sure I support death though. Sending drug users to small villages to die does not seem the Christian thing to do from my POV.

There is precedent for such.
1 Corinthians 5:5
 
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Robert65

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I'd agree that you cannot force an addict to stop. That is why it is not a purely medical problem. When addicts are not willing to stop and refuse to stop committing crimes to fund their habit, then I see no problem with locking them up.

Absolutely. Those who commit crimes to fund their addiction need to be locked up.

I've no doubt it's incredibly difficult to stop. And another problem is that the addiction usually has an underlying cause, such as low self-esteem or a wish to block out something from their mind, that is incredibly difficult to remedy as well.

Ya, addiction is a symptom of a deeper problem that needs to be resolved.
 
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Wisp

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.....their freedom to be poor? Millions have chosen to remain poor, sick, and perhaps drug-addicted. It seems to me that only by locking them up in a rehab center of some sort that we can deal with their problems. Should we do this, or allow them the life they have chosen?

You're talking about two different issues, poverty and addiction. They may overlap in some cases, but are quite distinct.

Very few people "choose" to be poor. A handful may do so out of some bizarre notion of rejecting capitalism or going off the grid in search of freedom, but the majority are poor because they have no other option that they know of. I understand those who have never struggled with poverty may think it's an easy life of sucking up tax money and eating bonbons. It's not. It's not something most would choose for themselves or their children. With regards to those in poverty, I think we should make rising above it a viable and attractive choice. Right now, there are few incentives for the poor to work. Someone working full time at a fast food restaurant or retail shop, bringing home around $8/hour after tax, will only earn $1,280/month. That's not enough to live on for most, certainly not enough to enjoy yourself on, and you can get the same amount by going on disability. However, if that same person knew they'd be earning $16-20/hour, taking home $2,500-3,200 each month, many would feel inspired to get the job. There needs to be some sort of scaffolding to help those in poverty negotiate the steps to that higher paying job, where they feel their work is valued and they are paid adequately.

We also need to implement a more realistic approach to how we define need. For example, right now you're either 100% disabled, or you qualify for practically nothing. This is particularly true of adults without children, young adults who are just starting out what could be profitable lives. What about someone who could work 15 hours/week but can't manage 40? My cousin is on disability, not because she is completely unable to move or think, but because there are no provisions for someone who struggles with serious illness but can still contribute a small amount to their own care. She could easily work 10-20 hours/week in a flexible job that accommodated her treatments, but finding said job would be nigh impossible, and she can't live on what one earns with part time employment. When she was working full time, before disability, she was chronically sick and uninsured (she is now on Medicare and Medicaid), constantly missing work because her health was so poor. Being allotted medical care has improved her health enough to work part time, but she can't do that since it would endanger her medical coverage. It's a twisted system that takes a game but struggling person and makes them choose between extreme poverty with their dignity intact, or frustrating and shameful over-reliance on social services.

In regards to addiction, of course no one chooses to be an addict. However, it can be difficult to get someone help even if they desperately want to recover. I believe the approach should resemble mental illness. If a person poses a threat to themselves or others, they should be mandated treatment. I don't think treatment should ever be viewed as a punishment, nor should it be implemented that way. Addicts are hurting people, not bad people. They may need to be helped against their will until they come to their senses, same as someone with schizophrenia.
 
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OldWiseGuy

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You're talking about two different issues, poverty and addiction. They may overlap in some cases, but are quite distinct.

Very few people "choose" to be poor. A handful may do so out of some bizarre notion of rejecting capitalism or going off the grid in search of freedom, but the majority are poor because they have no other option that they know of. I understand those who have never struggled with poverty may think it's an easy life of sucking up tax money and eating bonbons. It's not. It's not something most would choose for themselves or their children. With regards to those in poverty, I think we should make rising above it a viable and attractive choice. Right now, there are few incentives for the poor to work. Someone working full time at a fast food restaurant or retail shop, bringing home around $8/hour after tax, will only earn $1,280/month. That's not enough to live on for most, certainly not enough to enjoy yourself on, and you can get the same amount by going on disability. However, if that same person knew they'd be earning $16-20/hour, taking home $2,500-3,200 each month, many would feel inspired to get the job. There needs to be some sort of scaffolding to help those in poverty negotiate the steps to that higher paying job, where they feel their work is valued and they are paid adequately.

We also need to implement a more realistic approach to how we define need. For example, right now you're either 100% disabled, or you qualify for practically nothing. This is particularly true of adults without children, young adults who are just starting out what could be profitable lives. What about someone who could work 15 hours/week but can't manage 40? My cousin is on disability, not because she is completely unable to move or think, but because there are no provisions for someone who struggles with serious illness but can still contribute a small amount to their own care. She could easily work 10-20 hours/week in a flexible job that accommodated her treatments, but finding said job would be nigh impossible, and she can't live on what one earns with part time employment. When she was working full time, before disability, she was chronically sick and uninsured (she is now on Medicare and Medicaid), constantly missing work because her health was so poor. Being allotted medical care has improved her health enough to work part time, but she can't do that since it would endanger her medical coverage. It's a twisted system that takes a game but struggling person and makes them choose between extreme poverty with their dignity intact, or frustrating and shameful over-reliance on social services.

In regards to addiction, of course no one chooses to be an addict. However, it can be difficult to get someone help even if they desperately want to recover. I believe the approach should resemble mental illness. If a person poses a threat to themselves or others, they should be mandated treatment. I don't think treatment should ever be viewed as a punishment, nor should it be implemented that way. Addicts are hurting people, not bad people. They may need to be helped against their will until they come to their senses, same as someone with schizophrenia.

There are also many poor who can't be helped in any meaningful way. Not because of physical or mental issues but because of attitude issues.

There is also only so much money available to help these people. Government walks a fine line between providing for their minimal needs and rewarding them for being poor.

Regarding providing (tailoring) part time supplemental jobs for the disabled; I have worked many different jobs in my life and I don't see how any could be tweaked to provide such work. Most employers don't have the resources to provide 'make work' part time jobs. Welfare through taxes is the best way to go, imo.

Also, the problem of 'poorness' (few are actually 'impoverished') itself is poorly defined and generally misunderstood. With more clarity better solutions will come.
 
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.....their freedom to be poor? Millions have chosen to remain poor, sick, and perhaps drug-addicted. It seems to me that only by locking them up in a rehab center of some sort that we can deal with their problems. Should we do this, or allow them the life they have chosen?
Really?
 
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VirOptimus

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There are also many poor who can't be helped in any meaningful way. Not because of physical or mental issues but because of attitude issues.

There is also only so much money available to help these people. Government walks a fine line between providing for their minimal needs and rewarding them for being poor.

Regarding providing (tailoring) part time supplemental jobs for the disabled; I have worked many different jobs in my life and I don't see how any could be tweaked to provide such work. Most employers don't have the resources to provide 'make work' part time jobs. Welfare through taxes is the best way to go, imo.

Also, the problem of 'poorness' (few are actually 'impoverished') itself is poorly defined and generally misunderstood. With more clarity better solutions will come.

I see. You are woefully uninformed in social studies, economics and psychology.
 
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OldWiseGuy

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I see. You are woefully uninformed in social studies, economics and psychology.

Is there's something I said that you don't understand?

The experts in these fields don't seem to be making much progress with the problem of 'poorness'. I'd be happy to give them some good advice. :D
 
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VirOptimus

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If there's something I said that you don't understand?

The experts in these fields don't seem to be making much progress with the problem of 'poorness'. I'd be happy to give them some good advice. :D

I understand you perfectly, thats why I posted.
 
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OldWiseGuy

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I understand you perfectly, thats why I posted.

I saw a "help wanted" sign at a McDonalds's the other day. Don't you think that's strange?
 
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OldWiseGuy

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The cost can be higher if we do not. Harm Reduction programs cost money but based upon the stats I have seen reduce crime. I would rather pay to have an addict in a harm reduction program than having them run amuck on the streets robbing people to get cash for their daily fix.

As long as the addicts later pay for their treatment I have no problem with spending more.

Drug dealers should be harshly dealt with, not sure I support death though. Sending drug users to small villages to die does not seem the Christian thing to do from my POV.

Christians aren't in charge of this.
 
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OldWiseGuy

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Back in the (good old) day they would just sort through a large pile of applications already tended by kids. No need to post a sign.
 
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OldWiseGuy

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Sure. And in Dickens England all children had jobs.

This isn't Dicken's England. American unemployment rate is below 4 percent, which is deemed "full employment". With this there will be an explosion of new job opportunities for those who are prepared. So there will be less excuse for being poor.
 
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VirOptimus

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This isn't Dicken's England. American unemployment rate is below 4 percent, which is deemed "full employment". With this there will be an explosion of new job opportunities for those who are prepared. So there will be less excuse for being poor.

Uhuh. No.
 
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