shamanism

[bennyk]

I have been a Christian my whole life, and only within the past six months have I been exploring things that could be considered non-Christian. I have been reading many books from the Carlos Castaneda series which kind of ties in with shamanism. I am always a Christian first and believe in God first, but I believe many of the things in the Castaneda books as well. I do not believe it is a religion, I believe it is a way of life, and a completely different way to look at the world. Also, many of the things in the Castaneda books has helped me to explain the inexplicable things of the world, and of God. I do not think believing in the Castaneda way of life is drawing me away from God because I believe he was a catholic and it is simply a way of life to fall under Christianity. I do not think it promotes anything non-christian, just a new way of seeing the world and a way of living. If anyone who reads this has read any Castaneda books I need your reply. Anyone who understands shamanism, or just thinks they can add insight to the matter, anyone at all actually, please give me your reply. Thank you.

 

[VinceBlaze]

Do you interpret shamanism as being Christian?

 

[Abbadon]

What stuff do you believe from the books on shamanism?

I'd recommend just saying you're a Christian. And when asked about your philosophy, say that you like naturalism.

 

[bennyk]

To eliminate confusion upfront, I am first and foremost a Christian. As for shamanism I agree with many of their perspectives on things and their way of life. It makes sense. I am just not sure how much of it I can believe. What parts of shamanism conflict with Christianity?

 

[Abbadon]

Well, traditionally, shamanism is used by pre-Christian cultures.

Thinking about holy roller churches, I'd say that it's definately possible to be a Christian with shamanistic beliefs. If did their stuff outside of a building, and were protective of nature and stuff, I'd say "yeah, there are already Christian shamans."

However, some shamanism, usually new-age $hamani$m, is superstitious. I'd recommend avoiding that, since it can lead to idolatry (not necessarily bowing down to a gold statue, but trusting more in a little trinket than in yourself and God.)

Though it would help a little if you gave a real quick overview of what the book says shamanism is, and what worldviews you agree with about it.

 

[Lugus]

Although shamanism is sometimes called the oldest religion, I would not call it a religion the way that most of us think of a religion. It has no church or temple. It has no holy books. It does not worship any gods or goddesses (or, at least, it does not worship them the way that we would worship). In fact, shamanism could just as easily be called a very primitive form of psychology rather than a religion.

As with virtually any profession, there is some sort of process that helps to steer a person towards a given type of work. With the shaman, there are three general ways that are person gets into the job of being a shaman. (1) There is a strong desire to become a shaman. I suspect that these are the people who show up at various shaman seminars, lectures, and such. (2) The role of a shaman is inherited. This may sound a little unusual to our modern ears but it is very common for shamanism to remain within a family for many generations. (3) The shaman is called. The shaman who is called is universally identified as the most powerful shaman.

Once the aspiring shaman is on the road to becoming a full-fledged shaman, he still needs to be trained. Without this training, it is difficult for the shaman to reach his full potential.

Now that he is trained, what exactly does a shaman do? In primitive, as well as in not-so primitive societies, there are witch doctors, mediums, medicine men, magicians, shamans, etc. Of all these professions, the shaman is the only one who journeys to the alternate worlds of reality as a regular part of his or her job.

This ability to travel to alternate worlds makes the shaman especially well suited for the job of soul retrieval. This is when the shaman travels to the lower world to bring back part of a person’s soul that had split-off from the main part of the soul.

If you want to learn more about shamanism, this site is probably is as good as any place to start: http://www.shadowdance.org/toteg/wannabe.html .

Although there are undoubtedly many books on shamanism (both fictional and non-fictional), one that I enjoyed a few years ago was The Way Of The Wyrd by Brian Bates. Although it has been several years since I read this book, I do remember a few bits and pieces. The story takes place in pre-Christian England where a Christian priest meets a shaman named Wulf. I don’t want to give away too much of the plot away but I have recently learned that Brian Bates (who is a professor in psychology) now has a website dedicated to this book: http://www.wayofwyrd.com/ .

 

[Merlin]

Some of Shamanism is OK with Christianity.
Some is forbidden.
The problem is, which is and which isn't?

It's best to avoid such things rather than risk your soul.
It just ain't worth it.

 

[Isis-Astoroth]

I think if God is so loving and forgiving, then being a shaman isn't going to send you straight down to the big red guy. As 'true' Christianity does not exist but within the person, then if someone believes Shamanism works for then with Christianity, and they believe they are compatible, then they should be a shaman as well as a Christian.

 

[kangitanka]

Some of Shamanism is OK with Christianity.
Some is forbidden.

Really?
Such as?
Being one who practices shamanic techniques, I'd like to know what aspect of shamanism is "forbidden" by Christianity.

The problem is, which is and which isn't?

So, are you saying that you don't even know what is forbidden (regarding shamanism)?
If that's the case, then how can you state with such absolutism that some of shamanism is forbidden?

It's best to avoid such things rather than risk your soul.
It just ain't worth it.

How is practicing shamanism putting your soul at risk?
Concrete examples please

 

[Merlin]

Some of Shamanism is OK with Christianity.
Some is forbidden.

Really?
Such as?
Being one who practices shamanic techniques, I'd like to know what aspect of shamanism is "forbidden" by Christianity.

Well, there is:

Lev 19: 26 Do not practice divination or sorcery.
Lev 19: 31 Do not turn to mediums or seek out spiritists, for you will be defiled by them. I am the LORD your God.
Lev 20: 6 I will set my face against the person who turns to mediums and spiritists to prostitute himself by following them, and I will cut him off from his people.
Lev 20: 27 A man or woman who is a medium or spiritist among you must be put to death. You are to stone them; their blood will be on their own heads.

The problem is, which is and which isn't?

So, are you saying that you don't even know what is forbidden (regarding shamanism)?
If that's the case, then how can you state with such absolutism that some of shamanism is forbidden?

No, I'm saying the average Christian doesn't know.
For that person it is best avoided, for the sake of their soul.

It's best to avoid such things rather than risk your soul.
It just ain't worth it.
How is practicing shamanism putting your soul at risk?

What practice is OK and what isn't?
It is more possible to be deceived by 'the enemy' by practicing all aspects of what is called shamanism.
It is a path which may lead to more destructive activities.

 

[Buzzbee]

A friend of mine had been acquainted with an Asian girl who's father is a full-fledged shaman. According to her, her father does call on spirits and if they are not appeased, things happen to her family by them. I told her that these "spirits" are only demons, angels that have chosen to rebel against God and only deceive and destroy people's lives. From what she personally told me, there are events like sicknesses and others that come upon the family inexlicably when these spirits are not appeased. She has two sisters she said they have turned away from the shaman business to the Bible.

Do not do shamanism. It is forbidden and God calls it an evil thing. He assigns a death penalty in the OT for it. That shows you how serious He takes it.

 

[kangitanka]

A friend of mine had been acquainted with an Asian girl who's father is a full-fledged shaman.

Of course, you have to define what "full fledged shaman" means to you and your friend and the Asian girl.
I think we are going to come up with three different definitions, if you are completely honest.

According to her, her father does call on spirits and if they are not appeased, things happen to her family by them.

According to the Asian girl/daughter of the the shaman Im assuming?
I recently saw a show on the History Channel where a Chinese Doctor stated that Dragons (the actual physical Dragons) really existed. He went further to say that many of the Chinese people believe such. He wasnt speaking in allegory or metaphor. This DOCTOR stated such as physical reality.
Do you believe Dragons exist?
Most likely not.
Likewise should you not believe tales of "calling on spirits" (in the literal sense).

I told her that these "spirits" are only demons, angels that have chosen to rebel against God and only deceive and destroy people's lives.

Of course, that's to be expected from your faith
Some of us, who practice shamanism, see such not only as NOT literal spirits, but likewise not as demons (except as one's inner demons, which one is wise to confront)

From what she personally told me, there are events like sicknesses and others that come upon the family inexlicably when these spirits are not appeased.

She is falsely equating a supposed cause to an effect, nothing more.
For example-
I lost my job. Within a short time, everyone in my house was sick.
Later, I got a new job. Within a few weeks, everyone in my house was more sick than they had been in a decade.
Cause and effect, or coincidence?
Likewise, I can draw false parallels between the word "Hell" being said in my house and undesirable circumstances following.

She has two sisters she said they have turned away from the shaman business to the Bible.

Simply because of their superstision, nothing more.

Do not do shamanism. It is forbidden and God calls it an evil thing

I cannot STAND statements like this
They are statements of blatant ignorance
2 points-
1- God NEVER calls shamanism an evil thing. Look up "shamanism" in the bible. You WILL NOT find it
2- The assumptions regarding shamanism (such as displayed in your post) are usually FALSE and have nothing to do with "spirits" (in the literal sense), "divination" (in the literal sense) or anything else to do with any form of sorcery forbidden by the Bible

He assigns a death penalty in the OT for it. That shows you how serious He takes it.

Really?
Bull
Give me chapter and verse where GOD HIMSELF gives the death penalty for SHAMANISM (not sorcery, divination, speaking with spirits, or necromancy, as those are seperate things altogether).

Frankly, you will never find a single verse against shamanism, except through a combination of misunderstanding and Christian eisegesis of the Old Testament.

 

[Rusticus]

.......
Lev 19: 26 Do not practice divination or sorcery.
Lev 19: 31 Do not turn to mediums or seek out spiritists, for you will be defiled by them. I am the LORD your God.
Lev 20: 6 I will set my face against the person who turns to mediums and spiritists to prostitute himself by following them, and I will cut him off from his people.
Lev 20: 27 A man or woman who is a medium or spiritist among you must be put to death. You are to stone them; their blood will be on their own heads.
.......

None of the above describe shamanism, however.

Shamanism is a form of mysticism.
Mysticism is encouraged in some sections of christianity.
And virtually prohibited in other sections of christianity.

So, to some, the idea of christian shamanism is unconcievable, but to others it's quite natural, even though they might not use the therm "christian shaman".......

 

[Merlin]

None of the above describe shamanism, however.

That's right.
The verses are about contacting spirits.

Shamanism is a form of mysticism.
Mysticism is encouraged in some sections of christianity.

So long as you are only practicing 'mysticism', and not doing anything forbidden by the Bible, such as contacting spirits or any other forbidden activity, then it's likely ok.

You might even be personally able to walk that tightrope. Most people will not be able to walk such a fine line.
Unless one is extremely well versed in their Bible, it is quite easy to cross the line and not even realise it.

Is it really worth it?

 

[Rusticus]

.........So long as you are only practicing 'mysticism', and not doing anything forbidden by the Bible, such as contacting spirits or any other forbidden activity, then it's likely ok.

You might even be personally able to walk that tightrope. Most people will not be able to walk such a fine line.
Unless one is extremely well versed in their Bible, it is quite easy to cross the line and not even realise it.

Is it really worth it?

Can you clarify for me if you mean that a christian should stay away from mysticism because it is dangerous?

 

[Merlin]

Can you clarify for me

I hope so.

if you mean that a christian should stay away from mysticism because it is dangerous?

I suggest that if one is not sufficiently versed in the Bible so that they know what is acceptable and what is not, then it is best to avoid the activity altogether.

That would apply to shamanism, mysticism, voodooism, hypnotism, or any other ism.

 

[Abbadon]

voodooism

You mean Vodoun?

-isms aren't dangerous. It's mindsets that are dangerous.

I suggest that if one is not sufficiently versed in the Bible so that they know what is acceptable and what is not, then it is best to avoid the activity altogether.

You're not answering his question.

So long as you are only practicing 'mysticism', and not doing anything forbidden by the Bible, such as contacting spirits or any other forbidden activity, then it's likely ok.

You might even be personally able to walk that tightrope. Most people will not be able to walk such a fine line.

Unless one is extremely well versed in their Bible, it is quite easy to cross the line and not even realise it.
Is it really worth it?

Proper Mysticism is basically walking the line between Philosophy and Theology. And up until a couple of hundred years ago, we've pretty much had a corner on philosophy in the west. And the stuff that was around before that we managed to put into a Christian mindset (particularly Plato and Aristotle.)

 

[Rusticus]

......I suggest that if one is not sufficiently versed in the Bible so that they know what is acceptable and what is not, then it is best to avoid the activity altogether.

That would apply to shamanism, mysticism, voodooism, hypnotism, or any other ism.

About half of all christians are members of churches that actively encourage mysticism.
They would be most surprised to hear you say that.
Mysticism is generally described as "Immediate consciousness of God."
I personally am of the opinion that without that, or at least the effort to attain that consciousness, any set of beliefs is not a religion, but a mere ideology.

 

[kangitanka]

That's right.
The verses are about contacting spirits.

So if I state that I speak to spirits, but that those spirits are really only constructs of my mind - archetypes if you will- and that they arent actually literal spirits, then you would have no issue with my shamanic practices?

 

[Merlin]

About half of all christians are members of churches that actively encourage mysticism.

and many of them would not be considered Christian by other churches.

They would be most surprised to hear you say that.

I'm sure they would.

Mysticism is generally described as "Immediate consciousness of God."

My dictionary says:
noun: obscure or irrational thought.

I personally am of the opinion

Your Opinions are welcome.
But I disagree with you.

that without that, or at least the effort to attain that consciousness, any set of beliefs is not a religion, but a mere ideology.