Seven Seals -- Not in Chronological Order

[Watchman_2]

These things are complex and multifaceted so who knows there MIGHT be SOMETHING to what you say
but without knowing the context in which you place all this
and the line of reasoning that led you to these conclusions it is very difficult to say.

Simply saying that you arrived at these conclusions by 'comparing it to other scripture' is not helpful at all.
No one could be blamed for thinking that you are just avoiding the question.

It is true that the placing of the seals in correct chronological order is multifaceted. One has to have the correct interpretation of the correlating scriptures in order to know what seal comes ahead or after another. So, if one does not have the basics understood regarding the other scriptures, certainly the OP would not be regarded favorably. As one can see from the many naysayers, there are many that do not understand the Bible basics regarding the correlating scriptures.

It is also true that I did not attempt to present full documentation in the OP. I am not avoiding any question -- just sorting out those who are simply in denial from those who are serious students of the Word. If one has a specific good-faith question, I am always happy to answer it.

 

[Truth Files]

Response to the OP:

The 6 seals are actually portents of the prevalent conditions of the coming tribulation period

These conditions will exist throughout the period:

1.The spreading of the gospel of the kingdom
2.Intense angelic and human warfare
3.Worldwide economic collapse and resultant conditions
4.Massive human death
5.Martyrdom of those who become believers during the period
6.Unrepentant human behavior and response toward the Lord's judgments

The Lord must remove all of them before the actual judgment events can begin [before the scroll can open]

The 6th seal is given last because it leads to the beginning of the actual tribulation events on the earth and portrays human behavior and response to the Lord's beginning judgments

The actual judgment events begin in chapter 8 .... first, a great worldwide earthquake [find this one in chapter 6 and 8]

 

[Watchman_2]

the only thing I've said so far is only my opinion
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Once again , the same tactic used, no response whatsoever to anything I brought as evidence on your part, you only appeal to the personal in an attempt to derail from having to respond directly to the evidence, ignore what's said altogether.

You should be able to see the problem that I have with your replies to me by that which I have emboldened and underlined above. On one hand, you state that all you have offerred is your opinion [to which I agree]. Then, on the other hand, you claim that I have not responded to any of your evidence [which I have seen none].

Now, I respect everyone's right to formulate their own opinion. However, an opinion is not something of substance or specificity to which I can use to prove one wrong. Hence, it is pointless for me to reply to an opinion.

To me, your only point was an opinion that the OP does not correlate with the Olivet discourse, which you are certainly entitled to have. Hence, unless you provide something specific, there is nothing of substance for me to use to prove you in error.

 

[Watchman_2]

Response to the OP:

The 6 seals are actually portents of the prevalent conditions of the coming tribulation period

These conditions will exist throughout the period:

1.The spreading of the gospel of the kingdom
2.Intense angelic and human warfare
3.Worldwide economic collapse and resultant conditions
4.Massive human death
5.Martyrdom of those who become believers during the period
6.Unrepentant human behavior and response toward the Lord's judgments

The Lord must remove all of them before the actual judgment events can begin [before the scroll can open]

The 6th seal is given last because it leads to the beginning of the actual tribulation events on the earth and portrays human behavior and response to the Lord's beginning judgments

I took the liberty to embolden that portion of your quote wherein your gross error lies. There is nothing in scripture that supports your theory that the book, itself, is the revelation of the endtime events. The meaning of 'Revelation', itself, is 'the unveiling'.

Hence, if your theory was correct, the 7 seals would be to the Book of Revelation. Obviously, one could not learn about the seals of a book if the meaning of the seals were contained in the sealed book itself. Accordingly, to be consistent with your theory, you would also have to argue that all the seals took place prior to when John wrote Revelation, which would also mean that Revelation is a misnomer as it had already taken place.

Nowhere in Chapter 5 are the contents of the Book detailed -- we just learn that the Lamb is the only one worthy to open it. However, in Rev. 21:27, we see "the Lamb's book of life". Hence, the best evidence is that the book of Rev. 5 is that same book of life.

Accordingly, the 7 seals are events in time which would lead to the time when the book of life is read. The last seal in time would be the end of this flesh dispensation of time.

 

[lilmissmontana]

6

A few quick points first...................
In reading the Olivet Prophecy we first find that the apostles came to Christ PRIVATELY, Mark shows that it wasn't all the apostles but only four that came to him privately asking about the end times........Peter , Andrew, James and John.

thanks for that ... I never noticed that ... interesting observation ...

well, I read all the posts and didn't see the way I see it, so here goes ...

the Lord would that we would be a well organized and disciplined army ... He is a God of order ...

I think it's important to look at what the nature of trumpets, seals, and vials are ...

trumpet = the announcing of the order
seal = the sealing of the order
vial = the pouring forth of the order

1 = 1 = 1
2 = 2 = 2
3 = 3 = 3
4 = 4 = 4
5 = 5 = 5
6 = 6 = 6
7 = 7 = 7

to find the order we need to first find the trumpet ... the announcing of ... then see where it was sealed ... then where it's poured out

I heard it said one time, "it's so simple a child could understand it" and so it is for me ...

jmho ...

 

[Truth Files]

"I took the liberty to embolden that portion of your quote wherein your gross error lies. There is nothing in scripture that supports your theory"

>A scroll will not open until all seals are removed .... try it some time if you have one

>The Lord will remove all of them [and each gives a symbolic representation and portent of what is coming upon the earth] .... and then after the short slience in heaven [and the sealing of the 144000 of the children of Israel] ..... the tribulation period will begin on the earth .... not before

>The first major destruction on the earth will be that of the "great city" [the "burning" mountain [kingdom] [Revelation 8:1-12; 14:8; 17:16-18; 18:1-21]

 

[Watchman_2]

"I took the liberty to embolden that portion of your quote wherein your gross error lies. There is nothing in scripture that supports your theory"

>A scroll will not open until all seals are removed .... try it some time if you have one

>The Lord will remove all of them [and each gives a symbolic representation and portent of what is coming upon the earth] .... and then after the short slience in heaven [and the sealing of the 144000 of the children of Israel] ..... the tribulation period will begin on the earth .... not before

There is no evidence in scripture to support your theory that the contents of the book to be opened by the Lamb are the endtime tribulation events. That is what Revelation is for -- the unveiling.

 

[Truth Files]

Time will tell

.... it all just makes sense .... the scroll opens .... the judgments follow

Revelation's structure is a series of visions that repeat as the narative moves on ..... details are added

The book's theme is not linear, but presented with a revolving movement forward .... just like the visions of the O.T. prophets

I believe the Lord already has His plan written in the scroll

 

[Watchman_2]

Time will tell

.... it all just makes sense .... the scroll opens .... the judgments follow

Revelation's structure is a series of visions that repeat as the narative moves on ..... details are added

The book's theme is not linear, but presented with a revolving movement forward .... just like the visions of the O.T. prophets

I believe the Lord already has His plan written in the scroll

You can believe as you wish; however, there is nothing in the Bible to support your theory. If the contents of the scroll/book is God's plan, then studying Bible would be a waste of time??

No -- you are definitely in error! The Bible already reveals God's plan. That's why He gave it to us. The book/scroll of Rev. 5 is the Book of Life.

 

[Truth Files]

" If the contents of the scroll/book is God's plan, then studying Bible would be a waste of time??"

>The scroll contains the Lord's judgments of His coming wrath against an unbelieving world

>Your rebuttal is irrelevant

>He will remove the seals and open the scroll ..... and the judgments will role

>Will you be there to observe?

[Revelation 6:17; 7:1; 8:1-6; 11:18; 12:12; 14-7; 16:1; 16:16-17; 17:16-17; 19:1-2; 19:20-21; 20:1-3

 

[Watchman_2]

" If the contents of the scroll/book is God's plan, then studying Bible would be a waste of time??"

>The scroll contains the Lord's judgments of His coming wrath against an unbelieving world

>Your rebuttal is irrelevant

>He will remove the seals and open the scroll ..... and the judgments will role

>Will you be there to observe?

[Revelation 6:17; 7:1; 8:1-6; 11:18; 12:12; 14-7; 16:1; 16:16-17; 17:16-17; 19:1-2; 19:20-21; 20:1-3

Rev 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Rev 21:27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.

​

The scroll is the book of life, which the Lamb is only worthy to open. The seals are the events leading up to the opening thereof.

There is nothing in the Bible to support your theory.

 

[Truth Files]

Sorry, I don't think you are right

Revelation gives me a much different message

The scroll of Revelation 5 is not the Lord's book of life which contains the names of those who belong to Him

 

[Ronald]

The Scroll was given to Jesus when He ascended to Heaven. It represents the orders given concerning the end times. Think of it as a play that is written down but hasn't been acted out yet. The actions do not take place until the Trumpets sound and then later the Bowls released. Many trumpet and bowl events are described in the scroll. They overlap and are accumulative.
The opening 7th seal does precede the blowing of the 7 trumpets and actions taken within.
I devoted a chapter in my book: "Hell ... If I Know", explaining the common errors and confusion concerning the book of Revelation. Nevertheless, there are many differing views by renown scholars.
Simply, John gives snapshots of a sphere (Revelation). You can't view a sphere completely at once, nor can you expect that just by turning it, you'll see events in chronological order. He gives us different vantage points of events that don't necessarily happen at different times.
Example: "The sixth seal in Rev. 6:12 introduces the four horsemen to be released and cause 1/3 of the destruction and death on the planet. (This is the order written in the scroll.) The same angels actually begin to take action in Rev.9:14. They were held at the Euphrates River. They waited for a specific day and hour." (Hell ... If I Know, pg. 164)
An example of duplicate events shown from a different vantage point would be the eartquake mentioned in Rev. 11:13 when the witnesses ascend to heaven. This is the same earthquake in Rev. 6:12.
This is the reason why so many people get mixed up. They are used to reading in a linear and chronological way. Obviously there are some chronological events.
Let me leave you with this notion, just a postulation. If the Trumpets were blown in a rapid succession within one hour, it doesn't follow that all the actions described within happen in one hour, it just means that those actions were initiated. And if they were, we would be taken out before the devastion accumulated to the extent that is described. When a fire is started, it takes time to spread.

 

[Watchman_2]

Sorry, I don't think you are right

Revelation gives me a much different message

The scroll of Revelation 5 is not the Lord's book of life which contains the names of those who belong to Him

It is o.k. with me that you get a different message. Based upon your other writings, I can see that we have little common understanding.

You have the right to be wrong. I just wish that people studied with objectivity prior to putting forth positions. Your position here is fraught with circular and paradoxical logic.

 

[Watchman_2]

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Example: "The sixth seal in Rev. 6:12 introduces the four horsemen to be released and cause 1/3 of the destruction and death on the planet. (This is the order written in the scroll.) The same angels actually begin to take action in Rev.9:14. They were held at the Euphrates River. They waited for a specific day and hour." (Hell ... If I Know, pg. 164)

It is easy to determine which order in time the sixth seal takes place.

Rev 6:15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
Rev 6:16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
Rev 6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?
​

This can only be the return of the Lord, which equates to the start of the Lord's Day. It is the last event in this flesh dispensation of time.

Accordingly, it cannot take place prior to any of the other seals. The 6th listed seal is the 7th seal chronologically.

 

[Watchman_2]

I don't respond to trolls .... so you are waisting your time

It is not trolling to state the obvious -- we don't agree and you are wrong.

 

[interpreter]

The 7 seals are in chronological order. The first one was opened by the second coming of Jesus in 312AD, when the sign of the Son of Man appeared in the clouds, and Jesus came into power through St. Constantine. Constantine rode a white horse, and conquered with a bow.

 

[Ronald]

Watchman,
I guess you think you have it figured out. There are many views, I hold the view that the scroll only orders written that do not take place until the Trumpets and Bowls are released. You can see how the sphere of events coinside and overlap. The book "EQuake by Jack Hayford supports this view also. I've studied eschatology for 17 years and used to be an adherent to the Pre-trib view, but the more I examine it, the more I see the rapture happening in the middle of it all.

 

[Choose Wisely]

The 7 seals are in chronological order. The first one was opened by the second coming of Jesus in 312AD, when the sign of the Son of Man appeared in the clouds, and Jesus came into power through St. Constantine. Constantine rode a white horse, and conquered with a bow.

UUUUUUUUUUHHHHHHHHHHH..................NO

 

[Watchman_2]

Watchman,
I guess you think you have it figured out.

Yes. It is very obvious that the seals are not given in chronolgical order. Whether I have them all in correct order is debatable. However, I am certain that I have the correct chronological placement of the 1st, 5th, 6th, and 7th listed seals [see OP]. And, I know that the 4th listed seal precedes the 1st, 6th, and 7th listed seals.

The debatable seals are the 2nd and 3rd listed seals. I have them coming thereafter the 4th listed seal; however, I am not unopposed to those who conclude that the 2nd and 3rd listed seals precede the 4th listed seal.

There are many views, I hold the view that the scroll only orders written that do not take place until the Trumpets and Bowls are released. You can see how the sphere of events coinside and overlap. The book "EQuake by Jack Hayford supports this view also. I've studied eschatology for 17 years and used to be an adherent to the Pre-trib view, but the more I examine it, the more I see the rapture happening in the middle of it all.

There is no rapture of the church.