Seated with Christ and Quantum mechanics

[EternallyKeptByJesus]

Eph 2:4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us,
Eph 2:5 even when we were dead in transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),
Eph 2:6 and raised us up together, and seated us together in the heavenlies in Christ Jesus,
Eph 2:7 that in the coming ages He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.

To me this verse sounds present tense, because we are raised up together with Christ in the heavenlies. Many times I just accepted the verse at face value because it was hard to wrap my mind around being on the earth and in heaven at the same time.

But then comes Quantum mechanics and the theory of Quantum superposition. Here is a quote from Popular Mechanics:

"Physicists from Stanford University have now demonstrated the superposition of a group of atoms over a greater distance than ever before: 54 centimeters, or about 1.77 feet. The largest distance ever achieved before this was less than a centimeter.

Quantum superposition is made even more perplexing by the fact that it can only occur when the particles are unobserved. Simply by observing a particle in two different quantum states, you cause what is known as wave function collapse and the particle again exists in only one state or the other (and in the case of superposition, only one physical location or the other). Therefore, measuring a particle in superposition is incredibly difficult."

So has quantum superposition brought light to this verse? There have been many scientific facts stated in the Bible that during the time the verse was written man had no idea of the validity of the biblical statement other than accepting God knows what he is talking about.

So maybe here is another scientific fact that the Bible already knew about before science did.

 

[Radagast]

So has quantum superposition brought light to this verse?

No, I don't think so.

 

[Handmaid for Jesus]

IMHO the Bible just says simply what is. I have found that it is man that comes up with all the names and titles to what is.Something else I noticed. Man denies what is and calls it myth or fairy tail just because his finite mind cannot comprehend it.But man continues to search. When man discovers something, he gives it a name.
Proverbs 25:2 It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings is to search out a matter.

The word quantum has come into popular use but who is to say the law did not exist by another name in the past.Scripture teaches.
Ecc. 1:9 The thing that hath been, it is that which shall be; and that which is done is that which shall be done: and there is no new thing under the sun.

10 Is there any thing whereof it may be said, See, this is new? it hath been already of old time, which was before us.

11 There is no remembrance of former things; neither shall there be any remembrance of things that are to come with those that shall come after

There have been many scientific facts stated in the Bible that during the time the verse was written man had no idea of the validity of the biblical statement other than accepting God knows what he is talking about.

I know you do not believe this. Man is still trying to figure out some of the magnificent things the ancient peoples knew that science has not figured out today. Like the megalithic structures that archeologists have unearthed. Science is still trying to understand the precision of the placement of stones. I would suggest that what we know of anything is just rediscovery of ancient things. There is nothing new under the sun.

 

[Steve Petersen]

Some people have no concept of 'metaphor.' Every Bible verse MUST be read literally for some reason and in some way no matter how ludricous.

 

[EternallyKeptByJesus]

Some people have no concept of 'metaphor.' Every Bible verse MUST be read literally for some reason and in some way no matter how ludricous.

So Jesus coming back from the dead is a metaphor, the red sea splitting is a metaphor an axe head swimming up river was a metaphor. Some people have no concept that God meant what he wrote.

 

[Steve Petersen]

So Jesus coming back from the dead is a metaphor, the red sea splitting is a metaphor an axe head swimming up river was a metaphor. Some people have no concept that God meant what he wrote.

I was referring to the OP. 'seated in the heavenlies with Christ.'

 

[Handmaid for Jesus]

So Jesus coming back from the dead is a metaphor, the red sea splitting is a metaphor an axe head swimming up river was a metaphor. Some people have no concept that God meant what he wrote.

None of it is metaphor, imho.

 

[ViaCrucis]

Eph 2:4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us,
Eph 2:5 even when we were dead in transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),
Eph 2:6 and raised us up together, and seated us together in the heavenlies in Christ Jesus,
Eph 2:7 that in the coming ages He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.

To me this verse sounds present tense, because we are raised up together with Christ in the heavenlies. Many times I just accepted the verse at face value because it was hard to wrap my mind around being on the earth and in heaven at the same time.

But then comes Quantum mechanics and the theory of Quantum superposition. Here is a quote from Popular Mechanics:

"Physicists from Stanford University have now demonstrated the superposition of a group of atoms over a greater distance than ever before: 54 centimeters, or about 1.77 feet. The largest distance ever achieved before this was less than a centimeter.

Quantum superposition is made even more perplexing by the fact that it can only occur when the particles are unobserved. Simply by observing a particle in two different quantum states, you cause what is known as wave function collapse and the particle again exists in only one state or the other (and in the case of superposition, only one physical location or the other). Therefore, measuring a particle in superposition is incredibly difficult."

So has quantum superposition brought light to this verse? There have been many scientific facts stated in the Bible that during the time the verse was written man had no idea of the validity of the biblical statement other than accepting God knows what he is talking about.

So maybe here is another scientific fact that the Bible already knew about before science did.

The Apostle is speaking of our union and reign with Christ spiritually, it has nothing to do with quantum physics.

The Apostle can say that we have been raised with Christ, even though we are not raised up from the dead until the Last Day at Christ's Parousia, because we have been joined to Christ. Likewise the Apostle can say that we are seated with Christ in heavenly places because we have been joined to Christ--and He reigns at the right hand of the Father from whence He shall come on the Last Day, in glory, to judge the living and the dead.

We are not "physically" in heaven with Christ, we are joined to Christ in the mystical union of His Body, the Church, and thus we are in Him and He is in us. It is in this that we have died with Christ, we have been buried with Him, and have been raised up with Him to new life, and seated with Him, etc.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[ViaCrucis]

Some people have no concept of 'metaphor.' Every Bible verse MUST be read literally for some reason and in some way no matter how ludricous.

I don't think the Apostle is merely employing metaphor here, but neither do I think we need to mangle the science of quantum physics to understand what the Apostle is saying. The Apostle is speaking in terms of our union with and to Christ. That's not metaphor, but neither is it woodenly literal in the sense the OP is speculating.

We are seated with Christ even as He lives and reigns at the right hand of the Father in glory, but this is a mystery into which we have become partakers by the grace of God--not something that is comprehended by the senses, but by faith.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[ViaCrucis]

So Jesus coming back from the dead is a metaphor, the red sea splitting is a metaphor an axe head swimming up river was a metaphor. Some people have no concept that God meant what he wrote.

It's not either-or.

The Bible is not a monolithic book, because the Bible isn't a book at all. The Bible is a collection of books. The word "bible" literally means "books", plural; from the Latin biblia, itself from the Greek biblia (singular biblion).

It's not all one thing or all another thing. It's many things. Sometimes the biblical authors intend to speak matter-of-factly, sometimes they intend to communicate metaphorically, allegorically, and even employ mythology to get the point across.

There are literal things and there are non-literal things; there is allegory, metaphor, simile, parable, poetry, history, etc. Understanding these things is essential if one is going to take the Bible seriously.

Scripture is a rich tapestry that communicates the word of God to us through myriad forms of communication. The point of the Bible is Jesus, not itself. The Bible, without Jesus, is just ink and paper.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Steve Petersen]

I don't think the Apostle is merely employing metaphor here, but neither do I think we need to mangle the science of quantum physics to understand what the Apostle is saying. The Apostle is speaking in terms of our union with and to Christ. That's not metaphor, but neither is it woodenly literal in the sense the OP is speculating.

We are seated with Christ even as He lives and reigns at the right hand of the Father in glory, but this is a mystery into which we have become partakers by the grace of God--not something that is comprehended by the senses, but by faith.

-CryptoLutheran

I tend to really like your posts and agree with you on nearly every point, but I really fail to see the value in spiritualizing things. What practical value does that provide?

 

[ViaCrucis]

I tend to really like your posts and agree with you on nearly every point, but I really fail to see the value in spiritualizing things. What practical value does that provide?

In this case, it's about what it means to be the Church, to be Christ's mystical body. The Apostle calls us members of the Body, He also flat out calls us members of Christ (1 Corinthians 6:15). We aren't simply numbers on a membership roll, we are mystically united to the Person of Jesus and partakers of what God has done and is doing in Christ. In Him and from Him we have sonship, we are sharers in the divine life (2 Peter 1:4), we are children of God by adoption by our receiving this sonship in and from Jesus.

These are things fundamentally part of the Christian message of the Gospel. We aren't simply pardoned sinners, we have been born anew, given a new life, a new identity in Jesus, a new man. We have become partakers of God's own life in Jesus through the power of the Spirit. It is in this that we hope that, even though this mortal body shall perish, we shall live; that there will be a resurrection of the body. The life of the future world is ours, here, even if only in part. In light of this, we walk in faith, living out that faith into the world, boldly proclaiming the Gospel and bringing the peace of God to our neighbor.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Steve Petersen]

In this case, it's about what it means to be the Church, to be Christ's mystical body. The Apostle calls us members of the Body, He also flat out calls us members of Christ (1 Corinthians 6:15). We aren't simply numbers on a membership roll, we are mystically united to the Person of Jesus and partakers of what God has done and is doing in Christ. In Him and from Him we have sonship, we are sharers in the divine life (2 Peter 1:4), we are children of God by adoption by our receiving this sonship in and from Jesus.

These are things fundamentally part of the Christian message of the Gospel. We aren't simply pardoned sinners, we have been born anew, given a new life, a new identity in Jesus, a new man. We have become partakers of God's own life in Jesus through the power of the Spirit. It is in this that we hope that, even though this mortal body shall perish, we shall live; that there will be a resurrection of the body. The life of the future world is ours, here, even if only in part. In light of this, we walk in faith, living out that faith into the world, boldly proclaiming the Gospel and bringing the peace of God to our neighbor.

-CryptoLutheran

Great stuff to be sure, but I asked about practical value.

 

[EternallyKeptByJesus]

I should have said in my original OP, that I think that the possibility of being in heaven at the same time as in this earth, that such a possibility could be our spirit alone. I am not suggesting that our physical bodies are in heaven.

Furthermore, the OP was only a thought. Not some new doctrine I am trying to propose. It was nothing more than a pondering thought. Nothing more and nothing less.

 

[EternallyKeptByJesus]

It's not either-or.

The Bible is not a monolithic book, because the Bible isn't a book at all. The Bible is a collection of books. The word "bible" literally means "books", plural; from the Latin biblia, itself from the Greek biblia (singular biblion).

It's not all one thing or all another thing. It's many things. Sometimes the biblical authors intend to speak matter-of-factly, sometimes they intend to communicate metaphorically, allegorically, and even employ mythology to get the point across.

There are literal things and there are non-literal things; there is allegory, metaphor, simile, parable, poetry, history, etc. Understanding these things is essential if one is going to take the Bible seriously.

Scripture is a rich tapestry that communicates the word of God to us through myriad forms of communication. The point of the Bible is Jesus, not itself. The Bible, without Jesus, is just ink and paper.

-CryptoLutheran

That is just not true in its entirety. Jesus is the main subject but not the only subject. There are many things in the Bible that does not directly relate to Jesus but are yet important things. And not everything in the Bible is exactly spiritual. Some things are teachings for daily living.

I never accused or suggested that the Bible was a single book.

As for what is a metaphor and what is not, you nor I have the right or the all knowledge to always determine what that is. You are making assumptions because your mind can not accept the possibility of the OP being a real possibility.

 

[EternallyKeptByJesus]

Great stuff to be sure, but I asked about practical value.

It does not have any practical value. Maybe your mind works in the realm of all things being practical. My mind works in the realm of the practical but also ponders things that are not practical but are interesting.

You know many inventions that we are enjoying now, came about by people who pondered things that had no practical value but was some fanciful thought. Then one thing led to another or another person built upon another fanciful thought until an invention came about.

I am not saying this will ever have practical value, it was for me just a fun fanciful thought.

 

[ViaCrucis]

Great stuff to be sure, but I asked about practical value.

Alright, if we are talking practicality here, I believe good theology impacts how we live our life in relation to our neighbor and with God's creation. I believe that it is in light of our hope of the future world where swords are beaten into plowshares that we can likewise beat our swords into plowshares here and now; we are advocates of peace and justice for our neighbor here because we believe in the indomitable truth of the peace and justice of God, in Jesus, for the world, made full in the Age to Come. I know, like Luther, that this world is not where justice reigns; but I don't throw my hands up in the air and say since this world is not where justice reigns then let there be injustice ("let us eat, drink, and be merry, for tomorrow we die")--but there is a place here for speaking truth to power, and being on the side of justice for the lowly.

The kingdom of God is where the least are greatest, the last are first, and this kingdom invades not through the force of violence, but through the surrender of the Son of God to the cross into which He calls us, as His disciples. To be joined to Jesus means we can speak of the truth of God's victory, of God's peace, of God's justice in the world. It establishes us as the crucified people of God, proclaiming that cross-shaped kingdom. Because, paradoxically, at the cross there is life, because resurrection is the truth we proclaim to this world of death.

The life I have in Jesus, which I have received as gift from God through the Means of Grace--Word and Sacrament--I can therefore live out to my neighbor. By which I can confess: "I am crucified with Christ, and it is no longer I who lives, but Christ who lives in me, and the life I live here in the body I live by faith in the Son of God who loved me and gave Himself for me."

-CryptoLutheran

 

[ViaCrucis]

That is just not true in its entirety. Jesus is the main subject but not the only subject. There are many things in the Bible that does not directly relate to Jesus but are yet important things. And not everything in the Bible is exactly spiritual. Some things are teachings for daily living.

I never accused or suggested that the Bible was a single book.

As for what is a metaphor and what is not, you nor I have the right or the all knowledge to always determine what that is. You are making assumptions because your mind can not accept the possibility of the OP being a real possibility.

In the Fourth Gospel we read, "You search the Scriptures because in them you believe you have eternal life, it is these which testify of Me." (John 5:39)

The whole point of the Bible in Christianity is that the Bible points us to Jesus. The Bible isn't God's word apart from Jesus because it is Jesus who is God's Word (John 1:1), it is Jesus who is the very Revelation of God (John 1:18). The Bible is not God's revelation, the Bible is about God's Revelation; because the Revelation of God is a Person, not a text. Yes, God did speak and act and reveal Himself in various ways throughout history, and the Scriptures bear witness to these things--they tell us about God's disclosure of Himself to Abraham, they tell us about God's giving of the Torah to the Israelites at Mt. Horeb, and they contain the words of the Prophets who received and proclaimed the word of God; but all these things are, fundamentally and ultimately, about Jesus. Jesus is the Seed of Abraham (Galatians 3:16), the Covenant, the giving of the Torah, the establishment of the covenant people of Israel in the land of promise was, ultimately, to point to Jesus (Colossians 2:17), and all the words of the Prophets point to Jesus (Luke 24:27, Revelation 19:10).

The Bible is not a book of rules, propositions, or decontextualized statements of divine truth, it is not simply the Christian version of the Qur'an. It is those texts which the Church has received, collected, and confessed over two thousand years that by their reading and hearing we might encounter the word of God--even the very Word of God Himself--for our benefit. The Canon of Scripture didn't fall from the sky, but developed over time within the living faith of the Christian Church, by the consensus of the Faithful, because these texts were good, profitable, and useful for instruction, rebuke, reproof--because they declare both God's law and God's Gospel, and by them Christ Himself is met for our edification and being nourished and nurtured in the faith.

Which is why I think it is essential that it bears repeating: The Bible does not exist for its own sake, apart from Jesus the Bible is nothing more than ink and paper.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[EternallyKeptByJesus]

In the Fourth Gospel we read, "You search the Scriptures because in them you believe you have eternal life, it is these which testify of Me." (John 5:39)

The whole point of the Bible in Christianity is that the Bible points us to Jesus. The Bible isn't God's word apart from Jesus because it is Jesus who is God's Word (John 1:1), it is Jesus who is the very Revelation of God (John 1:18). The Bible is not God's revelation, the Bible is about God's Revelation; because the Revelation of God is a Person, not a text. Yes, God did speak and act and reveal Himself in various ways throughout history, and the Scriptures bear witness to these things--they tell us about God's disclosure of Himself to Abraham, they tell us about God's giving of the Torah to the Israelites at Mt. Horeb, and they contain the words of the Prophets who received and proclaimed the word of God; but all these things are, fundamentally and ultimately, about Jesus. Jesus is the Seed of Abraham (Galatians 3:16), the Covenant, the giving of the Torah, the establishment of the covenant people of Israel in the land of promise was, ultimately, to point to Jesus (Colossians 2:17), and all the words of the Prophets point to Jesus (Luke 24:27, Revelation 19:10).

The Bible is not a book of rules, propositions, or decontextualized statements of divine truth, it is not simply the Christian version of the Qur'an. It is those texts which the Church has received, collected, and confessed over two thousand years that by their reading and hearing we might encounter the word of God--even the very Word of God Himself--for our benefit. The Canon of Scripture didn't fall from the sky, but developed over time within the living faith of the Christian Church, by the consensus of the Faithful, because these texts were good, profitable, and useful for instruction, rebuke, reproof--because they declare both God's law and God's Gospel, and by them Christ Himself is met for our edification and being nourished and nurtured in the faith.

Which is why I think it is essential that it bears repeating: The Bible does not exist for its own sake, apart from Jesus the Bible is nothing more than ink and paper.

-CryptoLutheran

Again I think you are reading into the verse which is not there. It does not say all the scriptures reveals eternal life. It just says you search the scriptures. The two concepts are not the same. For example the Bible tells the Jews how to deal with bodily waste. How does that point us to Jesus.

I agree that the main purpose of the Bible is to point us to Jesus but the Bible also has other subjects that does not directly correlate to Jesus.

 

[ViaCrucis]

Again I think you are reading into the verse which is not there. It does not say all the scriptures reveals eternal life. It just says you search the scriptures. The two concepts are not the same. For example the Bible tells the Jews how to deal with bodily waste. How does that point us to Jesus.

I agree that the main purpose of the Bible is to point us to Jesus but the Bible also has other subjects that does not directly correlate to Jesus.

Alright, that is a fair point. Though I'm not arguing that every tiny bit of minutia is secretly code about Jesus, but rather that the point and purpose of the Bible in Christianity is Jesus. The point of the Bible isn't to tell us things about science, or to tell us how to run a country, or how to be financially successful, or what sorts of clothes we should wear, or any such things; the point of the Bible is the disclosure of God in Jesus Christ, and that the entire narrative of Scripture, the entire unfolding of the biblical drama, is to lead us to Jesus.

I frequently encounter some fellow Christians who think that the Bible is there to tell us how to be healthy by telling us what to eat, or there to instruct us on how to be successful in business, finances, or romance. Or they think that Christians are supposed to recreate a bronze age lifestyle in the 21st century. Or that the Bible is a science text book and we should therefore reject the scientific method and observation of the natural world. None of those things are what the Bible is about. The Bible is there to direct us to Jesus, our hope and salvation.

-CryptoLutheran