Questions about the Spirit

[ViaCrucis]

I would point to the Large Catechism, wherein Luther wrote concerning the Holy Spirit,

"For neither you nor I could ever know anything of Christ, or believe on Him, and obtain Him for our Lord, unless it were offered to us and granted to our hearts by the Holy Ghost through the preaching of the Gospel." (Source: The Apostles' Creed )

The presence and activity of the Holy Spirit is made plain and evident in that there is a Church, a Christian people who have faith in Christ, where the Gospel is preached and the Sacraments administered. And that this Christian people are compelled to devote themselves to good works, to love God, to love their neighbor. For without the Holy Spirit this would not happen and, indeed, would be impossible.

I think we frequently wish to relegate the Holy Spirit only to the extraordinary; but the Spirit's power is present and profoundly so in the ordinary--in the life of faith, in our love for one another, in the fellowship and unity of the Body, in forgiveness, in repentance, in good works, in the peace which God establishes in us and toward each other. His is the Voice that echoes throughout the pages of Holy Scripture, and His is the power in which we were born anew in our baptism, and His is the work in which we partake of the flesh and blood of the Lord in the Supper, and He is the reason why, "Your sins are forgiven" accomplishes what it declares. That I might know Christ, and to know through Christ God as Father, and to have many brothers and sisters who are redeemed of every tribe, tongue, and nation.

This is the profound and life-changing power of Pentecost, even right here and right now.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[The Liturgist]

"For neither you nor I could ever know anything of Christ, or believe on Him, and obtain Him for our Lord, unless it were offered to us and granted to our hearts by the Holy Ghost through the preaching of the Gospel."

Its unfortunate that this statement is only being interpreted by confessional Lutherans in a monergist manner, since it does not seem to me to preclude the ability of individuals to refuse the grace of the Holy Spirit or to cooperate with the Holy Spirit in theosis and to eventually participate with the uncreated energies God, such as grace itself.

 

[ARBITER01]

In the NT, after the resurrection of Jesus, the Holy Spirit seemed to be active. Do you think that the Spirit is as active today?

Absolutely! (Good topic btw)

The reason I am asking, is that Paul, in Romans, seems to describing a situation where in the Spirit was actively guiding the actions of the believers, leading them into truth. And the new believers are not under law because the Holy Spirit can achieve what the law could not.

I like that statement. It's exactly true. We are dependent upon His guidance, leading, and teaching,..... completely apart from The Law of Moses, hence why we are called children of Abraham.

The problem is that although I have met people who talk about God telling them this or that, I have never met anyone with the power of the Holy Spirit that Paul, Peter, Phillip, Phillip's four (4) unmarried prophesying daughters, and many others had at that time.

And there's a good chance you won't.

Not that I'm trying to be negative here, it's not an easy thing to reach that point with GOD and keep it. We have an enemy out there who does not want anymore Jesus's running around healing people and performing miracles, so he and his host of baddies will do everything they can to distract you and wear you down from ever achieving that standard with GOD.

You gotta remember, satan was the "anointed" cherub, so he is well aware of what that anointing upon a persons head does, and does everything to keep you from attaining it, and keeping it if you do.

There have been people in the past that did reach that Christ-likeness with GOD, people like Smith Wigglesworth, Maria Woodsworth-Etter, and others from those older generations, but it's much harder nowadays with the amount of sin in the world.

I was baptized in the name of Christ and joined my church denomination.

I was water immersed in the name of Jesus also. You did the right thing, don't listen to the naysayers. Follow our Apostles examples.

But I feel like it was much more like what is described as John's baptism. I didn't have the Holy Spirit come onto me, I didn't speak in tongues or prophesy. I pray for God's guidance, but I have never had God to actually speak to me as he did to Ananias to heal Paul, or Philip to speak with the Ethiopian.

I'll be the only one on this board who will actually tell you the truth on this.

If you want The Holy Spirit, then seek Him from GOD until you are filled with Him. Too many people in the body of Christ think they are automatically granted The Holy Spirit when they were born again, or in the case of the trationalists types, water immersed, but that is untrue. Receiving The Holy Spirit is a package deal, He comes with the fruits and gifts. We don't receive Him without both.

Our born from above regeneration was a preparation for us to be able to receive The Holy Spirit inside. Our human spirit had to be cleansed first and re-made into the likeness of Jesus by His blood. We are truly adopted into the family of GOD because of this change to us from GOD, hence why the Greek defines it as being "born from above."

The Spirit seems to have acted differently at different times. When Saul was anointed King of Israel, he was dramatically filled with the Holy Spirit and prophesied. When Elijah was taken to heaven, Elisha asked for a double dose of his Spirit, and was told that if he saw the departure, then he would be given this. But there is lots and lots of history around these times were such things were NOT happening.

Are we living in a Spirit-quiet time now? Part of me wonders if dramatic part of the Spirit is for an outward show. But what God really desires is what comes afterwards. God wanted king Saul to do His work and was upset when Saul didn't follow instructions. So maybe we shouldn't be looking for flashy signs? I've seen videos of people in churches rolling around on the floor, "filled with the Spirit." Those situations seem to me, see like self-induced hysteria and not the working of God. (But my point is not to criticize anyone because I don't know for sure.)

So I do feel that God gives me guidance. I pray for understanding about various issues, and months later realize that my requests have been answered -- in such a subtle way that I hardly noticed it happening. But, again, it is not dramatic like has happened for some in the Bible.

Can others give me their take on this situation?

KT

I wouldn't give my attention to the youtube videos on this subject, they are edited in such a way as to give the worst view possible of Spirit-filled people. There are a bunch of people with bad fleshly habits that can ben seen in those videos, no doubt, but there are a lot of folks also out there who are doing things correctly with GOD by scripture, that you won't ever see on youtube because they don't want that seen.

 

[Bob Crowley]

There are such things as Catholic Charismatic? I learn something new every day!

Just a bit of a primer - What is Catholic Charismatic Renewal?

Note that the link above is an Australian based site.

I haven't done anything yet as the closest CCR church is some distance from home.

 

[KevinT]

Its unfortunate that this statement is only being interpreted by confessional Lutherans in a monergist manner, since it does not seem to me to preclude the ability of individuals to refuse the grace of the Holy Spirit or to cooperate with the Holy Spirit in theosis and to eventually participate with the uncreated energies God, such as grace itself.

Why is it that every time I read one of your posts I have to pull out my dictionary. Ha!

Monergism is the view in Christian theology which holds that the Holy Spirit is the only agent that effects the regeneration of Christians. It is contrasted with synergism; the view that there is a cooperation between the divine and the human in the regeneration process. It is most often associated with Lutheranism, as well as with the Reformed tradition (which includes Presbyterianism, confessional Anglicanism, Puritans, Continental Reformed Protestantism, Reformed Baptists, etc.) and its doctrine of irresistible grace, and particularly with historical doctrinal differences between Calvinism and Arminianism. reference

Theosis is a transformative process whose aim is likeness to or union with God, as taught by the Eastern Catholic Churches and the Eastern Orthodox Church; the same concept is also found in the Latin Church of the Catholic Church, where it is termed "divinization". As a process of transformation, theosis is brought about by the effects of catharsis (purification of mind and body) and theoria ('illumination' with the 'vision' of God). According to Eastern Christian teachings, theosis is very much the purpose of human life. It is considered achievable only through synergy (or cooperation) of human activity and God's uncreated energies (or operations). reference

Kevin

 

[KevinT]

Absolutely! (Good topic btw)

There have been people in the past that did reach that Christ-likeness with GOD, people like Smith Wigglesworth, Maria Woodsworth-Etter, and others from those older generations, but it's much harder nowadays with the amount of sin in the world.

Smith Wigglesworth (10 June 1859 – 12 March 1947) was a British evangelist who was influential in the early history of Pentecostalism. reference

Maria Beulah Woodworth-Etter (July 22, 1844–September 16, 1924) was an American healing evangelist. Her ministry style was a model for Pentecostalism and the later Charismatic movement, earning her the title "Mother of Pentecost" in some circles. reference

If you want The Holy Spirit, then seek Him from GOD until you are filled with Him. Too many people in the body of Christ think they are automatically granted The Holy Spirit when they were born again, or in the case of the trationalists types, water immersed, but that is untrue. Receiving The Holy Spirit is a package deal, He comes with the fruits and gifts. We don't receive Him without both.

I love this. Thanks!

I wouldn't give my attention to the youtube videos on this subject, they are edited in such a way as to give the worst view possible of Spirit-filled people. There are a bunch of people with bad fleshly habits that can ben seen in those videos, no doubt, but there are a lot of folks also out there who are doing things correctly with GOD by scripture, that you won't ever see on youtube because they don't want that seen.

In general, I have found that YouTube videos are not a good way to consider religious issues in general. The presenter usually has a particular bias that they want to sell, hopefully earning clicks and subscriptions. I'm sure there are some good, but I haven't seen to many. (I have liked much of the stuff that NT Wright puts out).

Kevin

 

[Guojing]

Thanks for your reply. I agree with you that God can be quiet but not silent. But would you agree that the Spirit is more quiet now than in the time of the Apostles?

Definitely. The way to understand how God worked in the 4 gospels + early Acts is to understand the first miracle done in each part.

There is a very good parallel explanation between the first recorded miracle by Jesus, at the wedding, and the first recorded sign by the Holy Spirit, at the temple entrance in Acts 3.

When Jesus turned water into wine at the wedding feast in Cana, it is significant that He did this at the beginning of His public ministry to announce this special event, while getting Israel’s attention. It was through this miracle that Jesus was glorified, and the Disciples believed on Him (verse 11).

This miracle is a picture of Israel going into the Kingdom with great joy, with the wine representing joy. Wine is a type of the Holy Spirit and both are associated with joy (Zechariah 10:7; 1 Thessalonians 1:6; Acts 13:52).

Just as Jesus produced abundant wine for the wedding feast, Israel will experience much joy in the Spirit as they enter the Millennial Kingdom and become wedded to their Messiah for all eternity.

In the same way, Peter’s first miracle was also significant and full of meaning. His first miracle, after the ascension of Jesus Christ, was used to get the attention of the people, and it also showed that he had God-given authority.

The miracle of healing the lame man was also very significant. Israel is pictured as lame from birth. Israel was “birthed” out of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob (Exodus 4:22—23; Hosea 11:1).

However, Israel quickly turned away from God and went their own way. They were lame, spiritually, almost as soon as they were “born.”

However, Peter is giving Israel a glimmer of hope through what he is preaching. Israel can be made whole and go leaping and praising God into the imminent Kingdom. This will be made possible in the name (authority) of Jesus Christ. After leaping up, the formerly lame man went into the temple.

The temple is the location that Jesus Christ and the Disciples will be ruling the world.

 

[Guojing]

But is the Spirit active in the same way? Where are the miraculous healings like those performed by Christ's disciples?

To be transparent, I am not trying to insinuate that the Spirit is not active, I am just trying to emphasize that the spiritual environment today seems different from during the time when Paul wrote Romans.

Best wishes
Kevin

One way to understand this is to recognize that the miracles performed in the 4 gospels and early Acts are not done just "for the sake of it".

Those miracles are signs to show Israel that Jesus is their Christ (John 20:30-31)

Thus, this was why those signs were performed then

1. Signs are for the nation Israel. (Exodus 4, Psalms 74:9, Judges 6:13)
2. The Messiah was promised to Israel and prophecy stated that he will perform many signs and wonders to prove his identity (Luke 7:20-23)
3. When Jesus appeared, he performed all the necessary signs to testify to the nation Israel (John 20:30-31, Acts 2:22, Hebrews 2:4)
4. Despite the numerous signs, Israel rejected him by putting him on the cross. (Luke 20:14, Acts 2:36)
5. God gave Israel a one year extension as God's favored nation (Luke 13:8-9, Acts 3:26), by sending the Holy Spirit at Pentecost, who performed numerous signs and wonders again in Acts 2-7, in a final attempt to convince Israel to repent of murdering the Messiah and be converted (Acts 3:19-21).

 

[com7fy8]

• Prophecy
• Serving
• Teaching
• Encouraging
• Giving
• Leadership
• Mercy
• Word of wisdom
• Word of knowledge
• Faith
• Healing
• Miraculous powers
• Distinguishing (discerning) of spirits
• Speaking in tongues
• Interpretation of tongues
• Helps

hospitality

love

writing

pastor

evangelism

marriage

celibacy

Yes, Paul seems to refer to marriage and celibacy as gifts > 1 Corinthians 7:7 > comparing marriage with celibacy, Paul says >

"For I wish that all men were even as I myself. But each one has his own gift from God, one in this manner and another in that." (1 Corinthians 7:7)

Each gift ministers God's grace.

"As each one has received a gift, minister it to one another, as good stewards of the manifold grace of God." (1 Peter 4:10)

Grace can mean what I call God's "distant" favor, how Jesus on the throne has things work outwardly for our good, in His lordship managing all things. And there can be personal, intimate grace . . . in us affecting our character so we are changing into the image of Jesus. Of course, while Jesus from the throne might bless us circumstantially, also in us His grace can affect us in how we react to and handle the outward blessing.

What matters most can be, of course, how grace works in our character to change us to be and to love like Jesus . . . more and more maturely. While we operate in a gift making some outward appearance, we ourselves can be deeply affected by grace in our character, and this can be the most important part of operating in a gift. And others need how a gift ministering affects them spiritually, not only with show and circumstantial and social blessing.

So, grace is God ministering His love, basically, and most of all affecting our character so we are sharing with God in us.

And what I get about celibacy is it is our intimacy with God gift, for making the celibate intimate with God and growing in Jesus, while the marriage gift helps people learn how to love in a close relationship. And people with these gifts minister to one another > including how celibates help married people to get closer to God right while they are so busy with marital family enjoyments and responsibilities. And married people can help celibates in their interpersonal sharing.

But there is the overall result of grace . . . I would say . . . considering how Paul says that with the ministering of these gifts > we >

"speaking the truth in love, may grow up in all things into Him, the head---Christ---" (in Ephesians 4:15).

Note how Paul says we can grow "in all things" into Jesus. Each gift might have one basic thing and minister one ability of loving. But as we minister our gifts to one another, this grace can change us to become like Jesus, yes, and this includes how Jesus has all abilities . . . of "all things". The parts ministering together can bring us to the perfect whole of Jesus in us as our new inner Person >

"My little children, for whom I labor in birth again until Christ is formed in you," (Galatians 4:19)

1 Corinthians 13:9-10 says >

"For we know in part and we prophesy in part. But when that which is perfect has come, that which is in part will be done away." (1 Corinthians 13:9-10)

So, each gift can do part . . . outwardly, possibly, while its grace is changing our character to be like Jesus. And Jesus is the perfect whole, I can see Paul means. And God's love has all of His abilities; so as we grow in Jesus and therefore are perfected in His love > "as He is, so are we in this world." (in 1 John 4:17-18) So, we share with Him in how He is constantly acting in all His ability, in sharing with us in His love. At times, we might not notice certain gift abilities while we do things, but in love we are living in all His abilities together, with one showing out maybe, at times.

Plus > the grace ministered even during the early church has continued to minister in the Holy Spirit. And those people's prayer for us is still working. If all this made a lot of noise and showed, all the time . . . the outward appearing isn't what really makes God's thing happen >

"The kingdom of God does not come with observation; nor will they say, 'See here!' or 'See there!' For indeed, the kingdom of God is within you." (in Luke 17:20-21)

"rather let it be the hidden person of the heart, with the incorruptible beauty of a gentle and quiet spirit, which is very precious in the sight of God." (1 Peter 3:4)

I also sense God working quietly in me.

"for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure." (Philippians 2:13)

"Him we preach, warning every man and teaching every man in all wisdom, that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus. To this end I also labor, striving according to His working which works in me mightily." (Colossians 1:28-29)

So, while God has His grace blessing us outwardly, physically and socially, what matters the most is how this grace is affecting our character so we are and love like Jesus.

And Jesus has leaders who are mature examples of this > 1 Timothy 3:1-10. Such people possibly need to be given our attention, more than outward showings of gifts do. We need to feed on the example of our mature leaders, as we share with them in our lives so we can be exposed to their example.