• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

  • Christian Forums is looking to bring on new moderators to the CF Staff Team! If you have been an active member of CF for at least three months with 200 posts during that time, you're eligible to apply! This is a great way to give back to CF and keep the forums running smoothly! If you're interested, you can submit your application here!

Questions about the Spirit

The Liturgist

Traditional Liturgical Christian
Site Supporter
Nov 26, 2019
14,648
7,708
50
The Wild West
✟704,707.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Generic Orthodox Christian
Marital Status
Celibate
I think you misunderstand. I don't feel that my baptism was inadequate. I am just saying that I didn't start speaking in tongues or prophesying afterwards.

Well that’s normal; at present, these gifts as I have experienced them are (a) different from what the Charismatics and Pentecostals claim they are and (b) while they do exist, and I have seen them first hand, the people who have them are people who have spent decades focused only on prayer to God, and who are furthermore in a position to be able to use them to edify the faithful. I don’t even want to talk too much about the specifics of it, because I feel our faith should not be based on signs and wonders, but I have met Orthodox monastics who have had these charisms, and its quite different from what one might expect, and these are people who died to the world in order to devote their life to prayer.
 
  • Like
Reactions: KevinT
Upvote 0

The Liturgist

Traditional Liturgical Christian
Site Supporter
Nov 26, 2019
14,648
7,708
50
The Wild West
✟704,707.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Generic Orthodox Christian
Marital Status
Celibate
But is the Spirit active in the same way? Where are the miraculous healings like those performed by Christ's disciples?

Yes, and probably more people have gifts of the Spirit than at that time, although its a smaller percentage of the Church and it is much harder to get there (which was prophesied with regards to the life of prayer by one of the Desert Fathers). However regarding the miraculous healings, I have experienced this personally as has a relative sitting next to me, in my case, it involved partaking of the Eucharist and in my relative’s case, it involved Holy Unction.

At no time however should we neglect conventional medical treatment; the Orthodox believe this is unscriptural, and furthermore we venerate Christian physicians who were known to take care of the poor at no charge as unmercenary healers. This goes back to a vision had by the Egyptian hermit and proto-monastic St. Anthony the Great, where he was told “There is one who is your equal - He lives in the city and is a physician by trade, and every day he prays the thrice-Holy hymn with the Angels.” Three examples of these come to mind: St. Panteleimon and St. Cosimas and Damian. Also Ecclesiasticus, also known as Sirach or the Wisdom of Sirach, which we regard as protocanon, not as deuterocanon or apocrypha, says, and I am quoting from the translation included in the King James Version (in a complete copy of the King James Version, because the Anglicans also read this, although many of them regard it as kind of secondary scripture for moral instruction only, but they read it on the Feast of St. Luke the Evangelist in October:

Wisdom of Jesus* Son of Sirach, Chapter 38 (Ecclesiasticus or Sirach)

[1] Honour a physician with the honour due unto him for the uses which ye may have of him: for the Lord hath created him.
[2] For of the most High cometh healing, and he shall receive honour of the king.
[3] The skill of the physician shall lift up his head: and in the sight of great men he shall be in admiration.
[4] The Lord hath created medicines out of the earth; and he that is wise will not abhor them.
[5] Was not the water made sweet with wood, that the virtue thereof might be known?
[6] And he hath given men skill, that he might be honoured in his marvellous works.
[7] With such doth he heal [men,] and taketh away their pains.
[8] Of such doth the apothecary make a confection; and of his works there is no end; and from him is peace over all the earth,
[9] My son, in thy sickness be not negligent: but pray unto the Lord, and he will make thee whole.

*Jesus the son of Sirach is not the same person as Jesus Christ obviously, rather, Jesus is the Greek version of the Hebrew name Joshua which in Gallilean Aramaic is something like Yeshu or Yeshua and which in more recent Armaic dialects, for example, the West Syriac dialect, is Isho (and then compare the Arabic form of the name, Isa - this is a name one mainly finds among Christians from the Middle East). The meaning of the name is “God with us.”
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

The Liturgist

Traditional Liturgical Christian
Site Supporter
Nov 26, 2019
14,648
7,708
50
The Wild West
✟704,707.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Generic Orthodox Christian
Marital Status
Celibate
Holy Unction: a ceremonial in Eastern Orthodox and various Catholic non-Roman churches of anointing with oil the dead or those in imminent danger of dying

Holy Unction is not given to the dead or those in imminent danger of dying; that’s a Western Roman Catholic practice of reserving Holy Unction for those in extremis.

The Eastern Orthodox Church and Coptic Orthodox Church gives Holy Unction to the entire congregation on the last day of Lent or in some Greek and Antiochian churches on Wednesday in Holy Week, and additionally it is often given at other times during the year, and it is given to those who are sick. The Copts reserve the Holy Oil they consecrate on the last day of Lent, particularly at their monasteries, so that if anyone who shows up there is sick, they will not only give them Holy Unction but give them a bottle of the consecrated oil. The Eastern Orthodox are more reserved about it.

The liturgy is particularly beautiful consisting of seven prayers with seven sets of Scripture lessons including Gospel readings, as seven oil lamps in the pattern of a cross are lit, or seven wicks into a bowl of the oil. The Eastern Orthodox additionally preface it with a Canon, a long doctrinally rich, very poetic hymn consisting of multiple Odes which is normally sung at Orthros (Matins, Morning Prayer), which the Copts also sing, and the Syriac Orthodox even more so (the Syriac love the Canon and have both those translated from Greek and their own Qanones written in Syriac) but not during the Holy Unction liturgy. Typically a Canon consists of either a set of up to nine Canticles from Scripture or hymns which are based upon them which unite the scriptural canon thematically with the occasion.*

* Specifically,
  1. The Ode of Moses in Exodus (Exodus 15:1-19)
  2. The Ode of Moses in Deuteronomy (Deuteronomy 32:1-43) - usually used only in Lent, and the only hymn based on it I can think of off the top of my head is in the Great Canon of St. Andrew of Crete, which is highly penitential)
  3. The Prayer of Anna the mother of Samuel the Prophet (I Kingdoms 2:1-10)
  4. The Prayer of Habbakuk the Prophet (Habbakuk 3:2-19)
  5. The Prayer of Isaiah the Prophet (Isaiah 26:9-20)
  6. The Prayer of Jonah the Prophet (Jonah 2:3-10)
  7. The Prayer of the Three Holy Children (Daniel 3:26-56)*
  8. The Song of the Three Holy Children (The Benedicite, Daniel 3:57-88)*
  9. The Song of the Theotokos (The Magnificat, Luke 1:46-55) and the Prayer of Zacharias the father of the Forerunner (The Benedictus, Luke 1:68-79)
Most canons have two or three Odes; in Lent and the period of Pentecost between Easter and All Saints Day (on our calendar, this is not November 1st but rather the first Sunday after Pentecost Sunday) we use service books known as the Lenten Triodion and the Flowery Triodion (also called the Pentecostarion) because they are filled with canons with three odes. Although I think the canon used at Holy Unction has more Odes; I have to check.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

com7fy8

Well-Known Member
May 22, 2013
14,544
6,561
Massachusetts
✟635,592.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Thanks for your reply. I agree with you that God can be quiet but not silent. But would you agree that the Spirit is more quiet now than in the time of the Apostles?



Joel seems to indicate that there will be a time of MORE Spirit, which implies LESS Spirit other times

Best wishes,
Kevin
I don't know, Kevin. But when the Holy Spirit first started with the church, all the Christians were newly filled with the Spirit > not mature as Jesus Christ's church.

So, it could be the Holy Spirit was making more outward "noise" while ones were not inwardly mature . . . "I consider".

Why might I test with this? Because I am finding that God is quiet in us, but proving Himself. And He is personal with us, in us.
 
  • Love
Reactions: KevinT
Upvote 0

Gregory Thompson

Change is inevitable, feel free to spare some.
Site Supporter
Dec 20, 2009
29,747
8,349
Canada
✟848,336.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Christian Seeker
Marital Status
Married
But is the Spirit active in the same way? Where are the miraculous healings like those performed by Christ's disciples?

To be transparent, I am not trying to insinuate that the Spirit is not active, I am just trying to emphasize that the spiritual environment today seems different from during the time when Paul wrote Romans.

Best wishes
Kevin
Jesus said "according to your faith"

I would argue the same. People get all scholarly and think they have all the answers, but the fruit shows that they don't.

Furthermore, there was a build up that lead to the environment that existed in the early church, something to consider.

Today, the default mindset towards spiritual happenings is atheist. It is ingrained into everything around us, so the degree of transformation required to undo that, and become something opposite ... would be of a high magnitude.
 
Last edited:
  • Useful
Reactions: KevinT
Upvote 0

Gregory Thompson

Change is inevitable, feel free to spare some.
Site Supporter
Dec 20, 2009
29,747
8,349
Canada
✟848,336.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Christian Seeker
Marital Status
Married
It is like the whole world is like the hometown of Jesus.

"And he did not do many miracles there because of their lack of faith." (Matthew 13:58)

"When the Son of Man comes, will he find faith on the earth?" (Luke 18:8)

So starting from foundations at this time is best.
 
  • Love
Reactions: KevinT
Upvote 0

KevinT

Well-Known Member
May 26, 2021
813
414
57
Tennessee
✟54,339.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
Hi KT:wave:

Yes, the Holy Spirit is very much active today. The manifestation of that activity is not the same at all times. I've found this to be true in my own experience. He works differently at different times and seasons. It's never for show but for His purpose and glory.

...

The Holy Spirit is always present with us, guiding, comforting, and empowering. However, our awareness of His presence can vary. Because of our many distractions we have to listen more intently for His whispers, and to trust that He is always working, even when we're not aware of it.
:)
KT
 
Upvote 0

KevinT

Well-Known Member
May 26, 2021
813
414
57
Tennessee
✟54,339.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
Yes, and probably more people have gifts of the Spirit than at that time, although its a smaller percentage of the Church and it is much harder to get there (which was prophesied with regards to the life of prayer by one of the Desert Fathers). However regarding the miraculous healings, I have experienced this personally as has a relative sitting next to me, in my case, it involved partaking of the Eucharist and in my relative’s case, it involved Holy Unction.

Desert Fathers: The Desert Fathers were early Christian hermits and ascetics, who lived primarily in the Scetes desert of the Roman province of Egypt, beginning around the third century AD. ...The first Desert Father was Paul of Thebes, and the most well known was Anthony the Great, who moved to the desert in AD 270–271 and became known as both the father and founder of desert monasticism. By the time Anthony had died in AD 356, thousands of monks and nuns had been drawn to living in the desert following Anthony's example, leading his biographer, Athanasius of Alexandria, to write that "the desert had become a city." The Desert Fathers had a major influence on the development of Christianity. ref


At no time however should we neglect conventional medical treatment; the Orthodox believe this is unscriptural, and furthermore we venerate Christian physicians who were known to take care of the poor at no charge as unmercenary healers.
Very interesting, thank you.

Kevin
 
Upvote 0

KevinT

Well-Known Member
May 26, 2021
813
414
57
Tennessee
✟54,339.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
Yes because if one doesn’t have an actively Incarnational and Trinitarian faith one cannot expect the indwelling God of the Holy Spirit.

Did the followers of Christ, on the day of Pentecost, have all these doctrines in place at the time they were filled with the Holy Spirit?

We are not Pelagianists; we believe that salvation is only possible through divine Grace.

Pelagianist: Pelagianism is a Christian theological position that holds that the fall did not taint human nature and that humans by divine grace have free will to achieve human perfection. Pelagius (c. 355 – c. 420 AD), an ascetic and philosopher from the British Isles, taught that God could not command believers to do the impossible, and therefore it must be possible to satisfy all divine commandments. He also taught that it was unjust to punish one person for the sins of another; therefore, infants are born blameless. Pelagius accepted no excuse for sinful behaviour and taught that all Christians, regardless of their station in life, should live unimpeachable, sinless lives.

This seems like a whole new rabbit hole for another discussion.

In the Orthodox Church I’ve experienced, and I know others who have experienced, mysteries of the Holy Spirit, and its very beautiful. I also benefitted from this beforehand, although I did not see quite the same level as what I have seen, and in particular some of the more dramatic things i’ve only seen in an Orthodox context, but I do believe that the church in which I was baptized was at the time a valid church and that I partook of valid sacraments, but it is no longer due to the adoption of a theology which actively embraces various forms of sexual immorality.

I get the sense that you are Orthodox. Is this true? I have heard of the United Methodist church splitting over the issues of sexuality. Is your church having issues with this too?

Best wishes,
Kevin
 
Upvote 0

KevinT

Well-Known Member
May 26, 2021
813
414
57
Tennessee
✟54,339.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
Holy Unction is not given to the dead or those in imminent danger of dying; that’s a Western Roman Catholic practice of reserving Holy Unction for those in extremis.

The Eastern Orthodox Church and Coptic Orthodox Church gives Holy Unction to the entire congregation on the last day of Lent or in some Greek and Antiochian churches on Wednesday in Holy Week, and additionally it is often given at other times during the year, and it is given to those who are sick. The Copts reserve the Holy Oil they consecrate on the last day of Lent, particularly at their monasteries, so that if anyone who shows up there is sick, they will not only give them Holy Unction but give them a bottle of the consecrated oil. The Eastern Orthodox are more reserved about it.

Thank you for this information. From one outside this Tradition, it all seems very ceremonial and, well, "traditional". I suspect it would be very meaningful to me if I had been raised in this environment.

The liturgy is particularly beautiful consisting of seven prayers with seven sets of Scripture lessons including Gospel readings, as seven oil lamps in the pattern of a cross are lit, or seven wicks into a bowl of the oil. The Eastern Orthodox additionally preface it with a Canon, a long doctrinally rich, very poetic hymn consisting of multiple Odes which is normally sung at Orthros (Matins, Morning Prayer), which the Copts also sing, and the Syriac Orthodox even more so (the Syriac love the Canon and have both those translated from Greek and their own Qanones written in Syriac) but not during the Holy Unction liturgy. Typically a Canon consists of either a set of up to nine Canticles from Scripture or hymns which are based upon them which unite the scriptural canon thematically with the occasion.* ...

Most canons have two or three Odes; in Lent and the period of Pentecost between Easter and All Saints Day (on our calendar, this is not November 1st but rather the first Sunday after Pentecost Sunday) we use service books known as the Lenten Triodion and the Flowery Triodion (also called the Pentecostarion) because they are filled with canons with three odes. Although I think the canon used at Holy Unction has more Odes; I have to check.

Very intricate! It is interesting how different traditions grow up in different communities.

Best wishes,
Kevin
 
Upvote 0

KevinT

Well-Known Member
May 26, 2021
813
414
57
Tennessee
✟54,339.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
I'm not pentecostal although I sometimes think about visiting a Catholic Charismatic Church.

There are such things as Catholic Charismatic? I learn something new every day!

The Spirit acts in different ways with different people. I often quote my old Presbyterian pastor, maybe too often. In his case though I think the Spirit gave him two main gifts - wisdom and prophecy. By prophecy in his case I mean the ability to discern future events. I found if he said something it happened sooner or later, although I'm still waiting for some (and he died nearly 33 years ago).

This is a good point. I found this site that lists gifts from the Spirit. I think I have at least a few of these.
  • Prophecy
  • Serving
  • Teaching
  • Encouraging
  • Giving
  • Leadership
  • Mercy
  • Word of wisdom
  • Word of knowledge
  • Faith
  • Healing
  • Miraculous powers
  • Distinguishing (discerning) of spirits
  • Speaking in tongues
  • Interpretation of tongues
  • Helps
Way back around Christmas 1983, and twice in 1984 I had three "double whammies" when I was still a new Christian. They were like a breath going through me in very strong waves from head to foot, and every time they highlighted a specific phrase that someone was saying (a Bible study leader for the first one and the pastor for the last two). I still remember those phrases 40 years later for that reason. I got such a shock the first time it happened that I nearly fell off the chair. I remember looking around to see what everybody else was making of it but they weren't taking the least bit of notice for the simple reason it wasn't happening to them.

Very interesting. Thank you for this.

You would have received the Holy Spirit when you were baptised, but you were probably not aware of it. I think that's the case with most people - I'm a bit cynical myself about people being "slain in the spirit".

You may just have to wait. I don't know how long you've been a Christian, but maybe its early days yet.

Thank you for your experiences.

Best wishes,
Kevin
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

KevinT

Well-Known Member
May 26, 2021
813
414
57
Tennessee
✟54,339.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
I don't know, Kevin. But when the Holy Spirit first started with the church, all the Christians were newly filled with the Spirit > not mature as Jesus Christ's church.

So, it could be the Holy Spirit was making more outward "noise" while ones were not inwardly mature . . . "I consider".

Why might I test with this? Because I am finding that God is quiet in us, but proving Himself. And He is personal with us, in us.
I agree with you. I also sense God working quietly in me.

The reason I started this thread was because I have been reading through NT Wright's book, Into the Heart of Romans. And as he is dissecting out the reasoning of Paul, it just struck me that Paul, himself, had been gifted with the Holy Spirit, and was even able to give this as a gift to others. And when he writes his letters to others, he seems to describe that all the believers were in the same situation that he was. And it just seems that that is different from today.

But maybe not, and I am incorrectly reading something into the situation that actually is not true.

KT
 
Upvote 0

KevinT

Well-Known Member
May 26, 2021
813
414
57
Tennessee
✟54,339.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
It is like the whole world is like the hometown of Jesus.

"And he did not do many miracles there because of their lack of faith." (Matthew 13:58)

"When the Son of Man comes, will he find faith on the earth?" (Luke 18:8)

So starting from foundations at this time is best.
This is a very helpful perspective. Thanks!

KT
 
Upvote 0

The Liturgist

Traditional Liturgical Christian
Site Supporter
Nov 26, 2019
14,648
7,708
50
The Wild West
✟704,707.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Generic Orthodox Christian
Marital Status
Celibate
Thank you for this information. From one outside this Tradition, it all seems very ceremonial and, well, "traditional". I suspect it would be very meaningful to me if I had been raised in this environment.

We are receiving record numbers of converts, and I was not raised in the Orthodox Church. I believe Eastern Orthodoxy and Oriental Orthodoxy, aside from GoArch (the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese), aside from being the second largest denomination and the seventh largest denomination respectively, are now among the fastest-growing. It seems like every other week we are baptizing and Chrismating new members.

I think the reason for our growth is frustration people have with the Scriptural contradictions one encounters in the liberal mainline churches and on the other hand, a blandness and lack of beauty in the worship of the non-denominational megachurches and other denominations. And also if one does want to see the fruits of the spirit in action, the Orthodox Church definitely has them, whereas I don’t know about other churches.

Our liturgy is interesting in that while it is extremely complex, those attending our church aren’t subjected to the complexity; indeed one has more freedom to move around during the service, venerate icons, light candles and so on than one would have at many Western churches where one is expected to sit in one’s pew or assigned seat quietly. And you will never encounter a “Cry Room” in an Orthodox Church. We rejoice in the sound of infants.
 
  • Love
Reactions: KevinT
Upvote 0

The Liturgist

Traditional Liturgical Christian
Site Supporter
Nov 26, 2019
14,648
7,708
50
The Wild West
✟704,707.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Generic Orthodox Christian
Marital Status
Celibate
Very intricate! It is interesting how different traditions grow up in different communities.

It’s not just intricate, Holy Unction works. I have seen it happen, and provide healing. If you’re looking for healing through the Holy Spirit, we have it.

Also the liturgy used by the Byzantines and the Copts dates back to at least the fourth century, since a schism occurred between the Copts and the Eastern Orthodox in 451. And it is directly Scripturally based - see the Epistle of St. James, which directly commends the anointing of the sick with oil. And our Lord used material in the healing of people, such as the man born blind, wherein he mixed His saliva with sand and rubbed it into the man’s eyes as a salve, thus literally demonstrating His role as savior, providing us Salvation (the word Salvation is derived from the word Salve, meaning a healing balm; the Salve provided by our Lord being one sufficient to treat the pains of death itself).
 
  • Love
Reactions: KevinT
Upvote 0

The Liturgist

Traditional Liturgical Christian
Site Supporter
Nov 26, 2019
14,648
7,708
50
The Wild West
✟704,707.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Generic Orthodox Christian
Marital Status
Celibate
Did the followers of Christ, on the day of Pentecost, have all these doctrines in place at the time they were filled with the Holy Spirit?

Yes, because they understood Christ was God Incarnate, as He had taught them this (we know this from the Gospel of John) and they knew about the Trinity, both about the Father, who Christ our True God spoke of a great deal, and also the Holy Spirit, who our Lord promised to send, and their unity; this is demonstrated, for example, by Matthew 28:19.

I assume you agree with the Nicene Creed since you are posting in General Theology, so I am curious why you are asking such a question, but the point of the Nicene Creed was to defend the Apostolic Faith against Arius, who had introduced the novel idea, later perpetuated by some groups in the 19th century, that Jesus Christ was not of one substance with the Father but was created, and others developed variants on this such as Adoptionism, which stated He was a man who was adopted by God, and other such views which contradict the Apostolic kerygma as contained in Scripture and which were unknown prior to Paul of Samosata, who was the first to deny the deity of Christ in the 3rd century (but was also extremely corrupt, to the point that he was not as successful in spreading the false doctrine as Arius would be). Prior to that most of the cults on the fringes of the Christian Church had instead insisted that Jesus Christ was not human, which is a heresy known as Docetism, and which is also of course rejected by the Nicene Creed.

The Nicene Creed as part of the CF Statement of Faith has proven valuable in that it allows members from different Christian denominations to have a common point of reference.


I get the sense that you are Orthodox. Is this true? I have heard of the United Methodist church splitting over the issues of sexuality. Is your church having issues with this too?

I used to be United Methodist, and indeed was baptized in that church not long after the merger with the Evangelical United Brethren. And no, the Orthodox Church is not experiencing any trace of schism over human sexuality. Indeed I think much of our membership growth in the prior decade was as a result of refugees from the liberal mainline denominations that had capitulated over the issue of human sexuality, but increasingly we are converting unbelievers as well as members of non-denominational churches and also more morally conservative Evangelical, Reformed, Restorationist and Pentecostal groups which are nonetheless failing to meet the needs of their members for various reasons.

I should note that in addition to the Eastern Orthodox, of which I am a member, I greatly love the Oriental Orthodox and pray for full reunification between us, and I love the traditional high church Anglicans and the Confessional Lutherans and it is my hope that we will attain unity with them in the near future.
 
  • Like
Reactions: KevinT
Upvote 0

Reluctant Theologian

אַבְרָהָם
Jul 13, 2021
690
529
QLD
✟119,709.00
Country
Australia
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
I agree.

Can you tell me more about this? What was the context? How long did this last? What other signs where there? What happened afterwards?

I agree. Thank you so much for your reply.

Kevin
The context was a Christian conference with a general pastoral and partially mission focus in Holland (October 2024) - near the end of the three-day conference a team of about 20 team members of the pastoral/prayer support team went around in the main hall praying for all attendees individually; one-by-one (in total about 550). My estimate is that about 40% of all attendees would simply collapse/fall to the floor after being prayed for - it happened all around me. This clearly was a very positive experience for all involved - people would lie down in peace mostly with eyes closed for about 10 minutes afterwards. It's important to note that this didn't happen with one particular person praying - it was a whole team, and at no point was there any pressure on attendees for this to happen; it just happened - but not to everyone.

In addition there was a very small number (about <10) of cases where people would start screaming / protesting loudly - this seemed to be out of the person's control and it looked like these people were under the oppression of some demonic activity in their lives. The prayer in these cases seemed to be driving out these evil spirits - much like you can read about it in the Gospels or Acts.

The conference's purpose was a holy and intentional Christian life - focused towards reaching out to others for mission - I haven't heard a single thing I would classify as unscriptural.

Btw - my background is not Pentecostal :) but the Spirit of God clearly is still active ... it's great to see God working in His Kingdom in this day and age.
 
Upvote 0

roman2819

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Nov 22, 2012
997
255
Singapore
✟251,444.00
Country
Singapore
Gender
Male
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
In the NT, after the resurrection of Jesus, the Holy Spirit seemed to be active. Do you think that the Spirit is as active today?
The reason I am asking, is that Paul, in Romans, seems to describing a situation where in the Spirit was actively guiding the actions of the believers, leading them into truth.

Why were there many miracles during the apostles’ time? Essentially it was really about the purpose of miracles and the timing of God’s redemption plan. God was going to set up the church at that time. If Jesus did not heal or cast out demons often, then the multitude would not believe that He was sent by the Father..... Instead of constantly hoping for miracles, we should appreciate that Jesus did miracles to demonstrate that He was the Son of God, so that people would believe. When the disciples preached the gospel, they were empowered to heal, speak in tongue, cure the sick and even restore lives. The purpose was to establish the church. We should see the reasons for their miracles instead of simply expecting them to be repeated today.

Adapted from 'Understanding prayer, Faith and God's Will: Compass for Christian Faith' by Roman Ri
I was baptized in the name of Christ and joined my church denomination. But I feel like it was much more like what is described as John's baptism. I didn't have the Holy Spirit come onto me, I didn't speak in tongues or prophesy. I pray for God's guidance, but I have never had God to actually speak to me as he did to Ananias to heal Paul, or Philip to speak with the Ethiopian.
Many Christians feel the same way. Although I have experience the Spirit leading me on some occasions, but it is not often, and I do not seek such experience 'intentionally', instead, it happens when the God has a purpose for a certain situation.. I believe the Christian walk is not about experiencing the Spirit often. As for God's guidance, although He watches over us, I don't think He guides us at every turn, but only at certain junctures, and in the bigger scheme scheme of things -- and I believe this is the common and collective experiences of many Christians.
The Spirit seems to have acted differently at different times.

There was an outpouring of the Spirit during the apostles' time to do miracles so that people would turn to God and establish the church. After the church was established, the Spirit was visibly less active and there are much, much less miracles. Evidently, God did not want to continue the outpouring of the Spirit.

"Although there were many miracles during the apostles' time, Christians also faced intense persecutions – arrests, imprisoned and even put to death. However, convinced by the Holy Spirit that they were living – or dying – for a living savior, they held onto their faith. The Spirit and miracles strengthened their conviction that God exists, and they continued to persevere. Today, we tend to look at the miracles and ignore the sufferings that they had to endure"

By understanding the purpose of miracles back then, we will realize the reason for less miracles today, instead of still hoping for more miracles if we get our act together ie if we pray, read the Scriptures and fast more. I hasten to act that miracles did not totally ceased, but it is evidently they are much less today than the apostles' time.
Are we living in a Spirit-quiet time now? P

Yes, the common and collective experiences of many Christians confirm that the Spirit is more quiet today. God want life to go on in a 'normal' way, so to speak. There are still some miracles today, such as healing and casting out of demons, but less.

I have experienced strong leading by the Spirit on some occasions, as follow:

"On a few occasions, the Spirit has called me to pray. In early 2009, my uncle was terminally ill from cancer. His home was in Malaysia, and on weekends, I would take a long-distance coach from Singapore to his hometown to visit him. My aunt, cousins, and the next generation children have been Christians for many years. They were not Christians by birth, but in the 1990s, the youngest daughter believed. At that time, her conversion was met with consternation within the family, but over the years, her mum and siblings gradually turned to God too. My uncle didn’t, but when he was ill, he appeared to believe. However, the family was not really certain about it, and it was difficult to ask him. Even though he was lucid, he spoke very little, and it was not easy for him to articulate what he was thinking. While redemption upon confession of sins is a familiar theology in Europe and America, however, it is not a common belief among people in Asia, where many either worship pluralistic gods or claim to be free thinkers. The pre-war generation, especially, still regards Christianity as western influence. They are aware of two main denominations of churches, but that is as much as they know. Incidentally, when I was praying for my uncle, he asked whether I was a Catholic or Protestant.

At that time, I would feel empowered by the Holy Spirit during prayer (I was not praying in tongue). Because I had experienced such manifestation before, I could recognize the Spirit’s presence again. As this went on for a few days, I began to wonder whether God was going to send a miracle. Perhaps my uncle might recover, I thought. With this hope, I persevered in prayer. This continued for almost a month, and during this time, I was traveling between Singapore and Malaysia on weekends to visit him.

One Sunday morning, in March, I asked my uncle whether he would say “amen” with me, and he nodded. I prayed for a while, and at the end, when I said “amen”, he repeated it as well. It was the clearest indication that he had turned to God. Soon after that, I gradually stopped feeling the presence of the Spirit. A couple of weeks later, on an afternoon, while his wife and daughter were standing beside him, my uncle pointed to the ceiling and said that the door was opening, that it was very bright. My cousin asked whether it was the door of heaven, and he nodded. Two days later, he passed away. It was sad, but not unexpected, given the fact that he was ill and advanced in years. And he went to begin eternal life in heaven, which was comforting.

For some time after that, I continued to wonder why there was no miracle healing even though the Holy Spirit had manifested His presence. Several months later, it dawned upon me that His purpose was to allow my uncle to see God’s love. During the visits, as the Spirit gave me the strength and endurance to pray, he felt that God’s people cared for him. This might have added to His conviction gradually, hence he said “amen” on the final occasion when I prayed with him. Later, when he saw the door of heaven opened, he knew that he would journey on to heaven.

Another call to prayer happened a year after that. It was on the first Saturday of May in 2010, which was still very stark in my memory. Feeling an unusually strong motivation to call on God, I started to pray, and a couple of hours passed quickly; I remembered it was slightly past noon when I concluded. At that time, I thought it was just me feeling highly motivated. Soon after, a situation that had been a stalemate for the past two years started to see progress. Gathering momentum, it moved along briskly, and by the year’s end, the prayer was answered. Someone who was familiar with the developments said that the outcome was highly unusual and unique; and to me, it was undoubtedly a miracle. In hindsight, I realized that about six months earlier, it was the Holy Spirit who motivated me to pray, an indication that the Lord was going to send divine help. This was a situation where He had a designated will to enact, and He moved people and events along until it was accomplished. And I would only realize that it was God’s will after the outcome was unveiled at the end. This is how we recognize God’s will: After events had unfolded and revealed His plan, we looked back and saw that He was at work. We cannot figure out His will ahead of time, and He usually does not tell us"

- Adapted from 'Understanding Prayer, Faith and God's Will' by Roman Ri
 
Last edited:
  • Love
Reactions: KevinT
Upvote 0

KevinT

Well-Known Member
May 26, 2021
813
414
57
Tennessee
✟54,339.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
Why were there many miracles during the apostles’ time? Essentially it was really about the purpose of miracles and the timing of God’s redemption plan. God was going to set up the church at that time. If Jesus did not heal or cast out demons often, then the multitude would not believe that He was sent by the Father..... Instead of constantly hoping for miracles, we should appreciate that Jesus did miracles to demonstrate that He was the Son of God, so that people would believe. When the disciples preached the gospel, they were empowered to heal, speak in tongue, cure the sick and even restore lives. The purpose was to establish the church. We should see the reasons for their miracles instead of simply expecting them to be repeated today.

Adapted from 'Understanding prayer, Faith and God's Will: Compass for Christian Faith' by Roman Ri

Many Christians feel the same way. Although I have experience the Spirit leading me on some occasions, but it is not often, and I do not seek such experience 'intentionally', instead, it happens when the God has a purpose for a certain situation.. I believe the Christian walk is not about experiencing the Spirit often. As for God's guidance, although He watches over us, I don't think He guides us at every turn, but only at certain junctures, and in the bigger scheme scheme of things -- and I believe this is the common and collective experiences of many Christians.


There was an outpouring of the Spirit during the apostles' time to do miracles so that people would turn to God and establish the church. After the church was established, the Spirit was visibly less active and there are much, much less miracles. Evidently, God did not want to continue the outpouring of the Spirit.

"Although there were many miracles during the apostles' time, Christians also faced intense persecutions – arrests, imprisoned and even put to death. However, convinced by the Holy Spirit that they were living – or dying – for a living savior, they held onto their faith. The Spirit and miracles strengthened their conviction that God exists, and they continued to persevere. Today, we tend to look at the miracles and ignore the sufferings that they had to endure"

By understanding the purpose of miracles back then, we will realize the reason for less miracles today, instead of still hoping for more miracles if we get our act together ie if we pray, read the Scriptures and fast more. I hasten to act that miracles did not totally ceased, but it is evidently they are much less today than the apostles' time.


Yes, the common and collective experiences of many Christians confirm that the Spirit is more quiet today. God want life to go on in a 'normal' way, so to speak. There are still some miracles today, such as healing and casting out of demons, but less.

I have experienced strong leading by the Spirit on some occasions, as follow:

"On a few occasions, the Spirit has called me to pray. In early 2009, my uncle was terminally ill from cancer. His home was in Malaysia, and on weekends, I would take a long-distance coach from Singapore to his hometown to visit him. My aunt, cousins, and the next generation children have been Christians for many years. They were not Christians by birth, but in the 1990s, the youngest daughter believed. At that time, her conversion was met with consternation within the family, but over the years, her mum and siblings gradually turned to God too. My uncle didn’t, but when he was ill, he appeared to believe. However, the family was not really certain about it, and it was difficult to ask him. Even though he was lucid, he spoke very little, and it was not easy for him to articulate what he was thinking. While redemption upon confession of sins is a familiar theology in Europe and America, however, it is not a common belief among people in Asia, where many either worship pluralistic gods or claim to be free thinkers. The pre-war generation, especially, still regards Christianity as western influence. They are aware of two main denominations of churches, but that is as much as they know. Incidentally, when I was praying for my uncle, he asked whether I was a Catholic or Protestant.

At that time, I would feel empowered by the Holy Spirit during prayer (I was not praying in tongue). Because I had experienced such manifestation before, I could recognize the Spirit’s presence again. As this went on for a few days, I began to wonder whether God was going to send a miracle. Perhaps my uncle might recover, I thought. With this hope, I persevered in prayer. This continued for almost a month, and during this time, I was traveling between Singapore and Malaysia on weekends to visit him.

One Sunday morning, in March, I asked my uncle whether he would say “amen” with me, and he nodded. I prayed for a while, and at the end, when I said “amen”, he repeated it as well. It was the clearest indication that he had turned to God. Soon after that, I gradually stopped feeling the presence of the Spirit. A couple of weeks later, on an afternoon, while his wife and daughter were standing beside him, my uncle pointed to the ceiling and said that the door was opening, that it was very bright. My cousin asked whether it was the door of heaven, and he nodded. Two days later, he passed away. It was sad, but not unexpected, given the fact that he was ill and advanced in years. And he went to begin eternal life in heaven, which was comforting.

For some time after that, I continued to wonder why there was no miracle healing even though the Holy Spirit had manifested His presence. Several months later, it dawned upon me that His purpose was to allow my uncle to see God’s love. During the visits, as the Spirit gave me the strength and endurance to pray, he felt that God’s people cared for him. This might have added to His conviction gradually, hence he said “amen” on the final occasion when I prayed with him. Later, when he saw the door of heaven opened, he knew that he would journey on to heaven.

Another call to prayer happened a year after that. It was on the first Saturday of May in 2010, which was still very stark in my memory. Feeling an unusually strong motivation to call on God, I started to pray, and a couple of hours passed quickly; I remembered it was slightly past noon when I concluded. At that time, I thought it was just me feeling highly motivated. Soon after, a situation that had been a stalemate for the past two years started to see progress. Gathering momentum, it moved along briskly, and by the year’s end, the prayer was answered. Someone who was familiar with the developments said that the outcome was highly unusual and unique; and to me, it was undoubtedly a miracle. In hindsight, I realized that about six months earlier, it was the Holy Spirit who motivated me to pray, an indication that the Lord was going to send divine help. This was a situation where He had a designated will to enact, and He moved people and events along until it was accomplished. And I would only realize that it was God’s will after the outcome was unveiled at the end. This is how we recognize God’s will: After events had unfolded and revealed His plan, we looked back and saw that He was at work. We cannot figure out His will ahead of time, and He usually does not tell us"

- Adapted from 'Understanding Prayer, Faith and God's Will' by Roman Ri
Thank you so much for these accounts!

:)
Kevin
 
Upvote 0

KevinT

Well-Known Member
May 26, 2021
813
414
57
Tennessee
✟54,339.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
The context was a Christian conference with a general pastoral and partially mission focus in Holland (October 2024) - near the end of the three-day conference a team of about 20 team members of the pastoral/prayer support team went around in the main hall praying for all attendees individually; one-by-one (in total about 550). My estimate is that about 40% of all attendees would simply collapse/fall to the floor after being prayed for - it happened all around me. This clearly was a very positive experience for all involved - people would lie down in peace mostly with eyes closed for about 10 minutes afterwards. It's important to note that this didn't happen with one particular person praying - it was a whole team, and at no point was there any pressure on attendees for this to happen; it just happened - but not to everyone.

In addition there was a very small number (about <10) of cases where people would start screaming / protesting loudly - this seemed to be out of the person's control and it looked like these people were under the oppression of some demonic activity in their lives. The prayer in these cases seemed to be driving out these evil spirits - much like you can read about it in the Gospels or Acts.

The conference's purpose was a holy and intentional Christian life - focused towards reaching out to others for mission - I haven't heard a single thing I would classify as unscriptural.

Btw - my background is not Pentecostal :) but the Spirit of God clearly is still active ... it's great to see God working in His Kingdom in this day and age.
Thank you for this information. Very helpful. :)
Kevin
 
Upvote 0