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Once Saved Always Saved (OSAS) or Keep the faith until the end?

Marty T H

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Gal. 5:4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.​
Any Christian who actually reads their Bible, can not help but know that there is now only one true sin, And that is to trust in our own righteousness! If you think that NOT sinning is going to save you, you are wrong! The work that Christ completed on the cross, and the conformation of God raising him from the dead, is the only basis for our salvation. period

Therefore the devil has got to get you to trust in yourself. If he can do that he has got you.
Yes we must stay away from sin, it is toxic to our Christian walk, and gives the devil power in our lives.

also
2 Thes. 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;​
There will be a falling away!

In the garden of Eden, God said "you shall die". The devil said "you shall not die". Who you believe(have faith in) is who you belong to.
The devil has not closed up shop.
Get hold of you Bible with white knuckles and dig in!

I have a study out on the internet, If you go to the salvation heading, under the sub-title of "once saved always saved" (page 264-265) you will find more verses on the subject.

 
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Clare73

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Hah, I'll stand by my statements, I'm not concerned if you don't believe it. Baiting me wont work.
How convenient. . .demonstration of one's view from Scripture is now "baiting" which, of course, is to be avoided.

Who knew?
 
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JulieB67

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I am certainly not the judge, thank goodness. But someone who has truly fallen away into apostasy which is departing from the truth and then never repenting or coming back from that -would we say they have eternal security? I don't think so. You have literally departed from the faith with no intention of repenting or coming back. You in essence are no longer in belief or putting your trust into Christ as your Savior. We have to continue to believe which to me is more than just words.

I think that's completely different from anyone simply missing the mark from time to time and if that happens that person would certainly get back on the path and continue their walk in life continuing to be guided by the Holy Spirit. And people can backslide as well for who knows what and for how long but repentance -that change of heart and mind is key. I think our Father is always open for someone who has truly repented. That's what he wants and why he's so long suffering.

As for someone that says some sort of "sinner's prayer" and then goes about their life as before and continues to live in sin- I would highly doubt that person was sincere to begin with. Because they have chosen to put their will over our Father's/Christ's and obviously continuing to do so.

And certainly the sanctification process can take time to strive and put his will over our own but God is the heart knower. He knows who's giving him lip service or their heart and mind. But I think eternal security can be found for someone who stays the course until the end. Again, it can't be just lip service and that's it. Someone who states-" I can choose and live my life however I want to" I don't believe that.
 
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Clare73

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My assertion is that you can't answer the question because the Bible didn't provide a clear answer if you can't see that then it's you who needs to actually educate yourself
Straw man. . .you have presented no question.

Is yours following (post #38) the "question" to which you are referring?

"In saying this none of the following refutes my statements if I so choose to walk away:
Jn 6:37
- All that the Father gives to me will come to me. (i have come to jesus)
Jn 6:39 - I shall lose none of all that the Father has given me. (he didnt lose me, i would have left on my own accord)
Jn 10:28 - My sheep listen to my voice. . .shall never perish, no one can snatch them out of my hand. (if i decide i dont want to be a sheep..., i could leap out of, no need to be snatched)
1 Pe 1:4-5 - The born again have true faith and are kept by the power of God. (kept simply means he will take care of, he isnt imprisoning us)"

Your handling of the above Scriptures speaks for itself.

Q.E.D.
 
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Spiritual Jew

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Not according to the NT:

Jn 6:37 - All that the Father gives to me will come to me.

Jn 6:39 - I shall lose none of all that the Father has given me.
Why are you not quoting the whole verses so people can see the context? That seems rather deceptive.

John 6:39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all those he has given me, but raise them up at the last day.

It's God's will/desire that Jesus would not lose any of those the Father has given Him, but God's desires can be resisted, as we can see here:

Luke 12:45 But suppose the servant says to himself, ‘My master is taking a long time in coming,’ and he then begins to beat the other servants, both men and women, and to eat and drink and get drunk. 46 The master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he is not aware of. He will cut him to pieces and assign him a place with the unbelievers. 47 “The servant who knows the master’s will and does not get ready or does not do what the master wants will be beaten with many blows.

The master in the parable represents God and it talks about His servant not obeying Him and being punished for it. God wanted His servant to obey, but the servant chose not to, so he was punished. God doesn't force His desires onto people.

Also according to the NT:

John 17:12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.

You think that John 6:39 says that no one given to Jesus can be lost, bu this verse proves otherwise. Why do you interpret John 6:39 in such a way that contradicts John 17:12? You need to take all of scripture into consideration instead of cherry picking scripture like this.

Jn 10:28 - My sheep listen to my voice. . .shall never perish, no one can snatch them out of my hand.
He will not leave or forsake us, but that doesn't mean we can't leave Him. Your proof texting doesn't nullify all the scriptures which contradict your Calvinist doctrine. You can't just cherry pick some verses and ignore all the rest.

1 Pe 1:4-5 - The born again have true faith and are kept by the power of God.

Mt 7:22-23 - Only counterfeit faith apostasizes.

An example of counterfeit faith.
So, do you think that those who have counterfeit faith would be called "holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling"?

Hebrews 3:1 Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus...12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God. 13 But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. 14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;

I wonder how you try to get around this one?

The only counterfeit faith I see in this discussion is one where someone thinks that faith was given to them by God and that they can't possibly ever lose it despite the warnings in scripture given to believers about needing to be diligent about keeping their faith "unto the end".
 
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Spiritual Jew

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By saying salvation can be lost, you are saying Christ has not done enough for you on the cross. You are saying that His sacrifice was not enough, and you are trying to add your deeds to the cross. It is not different than all the other false religions teach.
Nonsense. By saying salvation can be lost means you are not ignoring the fact that we have responsibility in salvation as Calvinists like you do. Our responsibility is not to do works to earn our salvation, but rather to humble ourselves before God while submitting to Him and acknowledging that we are sinners who can't save ourselves and instead need His provision for us.

Hebrews 3:12 See to it, brothers and sisters, that none of you has a sinful, unbelieving heart that turns away from the living God. 13 But encourage one another daily, as long as it is called “Today,” so that none of you may be hardened by sin’s deceitfulness. 14 We have come to share in Christ, if indeed we hold our original conviction firmly to the very end.

Satan would like nothing more than for Christians to believe that passages like this don't apply to them and are not warnings that they should heed.

Tell me, how can anyone but a Christian turn away from the living God? An unbeliever can't turn away from God if he or she has never had a relationship with God in the first place.

Tell me, who else but Christians would be told to encourage each other daily in order to not be "hardened by sin's deceitfulness"?

Tell me, who else but Christians would be said to "share in Christ" if we "hold our original conviction firmly to the very end"?

This passage is clearly a warning to Christians about being careful not to lose faith and fall away. Yet, you try to say this can't happen. Is Hebrews 3:12-14 in your Bible?
 
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Clare73

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Why are you not quoting the whole verses so people can see the context? That seems rather deceptive.

John 6:39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all those he has given me, but raise them up at the last day.

It's God's will/desire that Jesus would not lose any of those the Father has given Him, but God's desires can be resisted, as we can see here:
God's desire is the same Greek word as his will, which secret will (Dt 29:29) is always done.
God's revealed will for Pharaoh was, "Let my people go," (Ex 4:22), while his secret will was, "I will harden his heart so that he will not let the people go." (Ex 4:21).
Just because God's revealed will (Ex 4:22) is not done does not mean his secret will (Ex 4:21) is not always done.
Luke 12:45 But suppose the servant says to himself, ‘My master is taking a long time in coming,’ and he then begins to beat the other servants, both men and women, and to eat and drink and get drunk. 46 The master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he is not aware of. He will cut him to pieces and assign him a place with the unbelievers. 47 “The servant who knows the master’s will and does not get ready or does not do what the master wants will be beaten with many blows.

The master in the parable represents God and it talks about His servant not obeying Him and being punished for it. God wanted His servant to obey, but the servant chose not to, so he was punished. God doesn't force His desires onto people.

Also according to the NT:

John 17:12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.

You think that John 6:39 says that no one given to Jesus can be lost, bu this verse proves otherwise. Why do you interpret John 6:39 in such a way that contradicts John 17:12? You need to take all of scripture into consideration instead of cherry picking scripture like this.


He will not leave or forsake us, but that doesn't mean we can't leave Him. Your proof texting doesn't nullify all the scriptures which contradict your Calvinist doctrine. You can't just cherry pick some verses and ignore all the rest.


So, do you think that those who have counterfeit faith would be called "holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling"?

Hebrews 3:1 Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus...12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God. 13 But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. 14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;

I wonder how you try to get around this one?

The only counterfeit faith I see in this discussion is one where someone thinks that faith was given to them by God and that they can't possibly ever lose it despite the warnings in scripture given to believers about needing to be diligent about keeping their faith "unto the end".
 
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Spiritual Jew

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God's desire is the same Greek word as his will, which secret will (Dt 29:29) is always done.
God's revealed will for Pharaoh was, "Let my people go," (Ex 4:22), while his secret will was, "I will harden his heart so that he will not let the people go." (Ex 4:21).
Just because God's revealed will (Ex 4:22) is not done does not mean his secret will (Ex 4:21) is not always done.
You didn't address my point, which was in relation to John 6:39. Yes, I know that God's desires is not the same as His will that can't be thwarted and I'm not saying otherwise.

The same Greek word used in John 6:39, which is thelēma, to refer to God's will is used in the following passage, which I already showed you and you didn't address.

Luke 12:45 But and if that servant say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; and shall begin to beat the menservants and maidens, and to eat and drink, and to be drunken; 46 The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers. 47 And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.

Clearly, God's servant that Jesus referenced here did not obey God's will/desire for him, so he was punished. In John 6:39 it talks about it being God's will/desire (same Greek word) that Jesus should lose nothing, yet the following verse says he lost one, the son of perdition. Which most understand to be referring to Judas Iscariot.

John 17:12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.
 
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Soyeong

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I went back and forth on the issue, and I really wanted to believe OSAS is true, for peace of mind.
If someone needs to argue that someone who falls away was never saved in the first place in order to maintain OSAS, then OSAS does not give a peace of mind.

"Lordship Salvation", as this is also a false doctrine.
In Romans 10:5-10, Paul referred to Deuteronomy 30 as the word of faith that we proclaim in regard to proclaiming that God's law is not too difficult for us to obey, that obedience to it brings life and a blessing, in regard to what we are agreeing to obey by confessing that Jesus is Lord, and in regard to the way to believe that God raised Jesus from the dead for salvation.

However, you will see that maintaining your relationship (abiding in Christ) is necessary for Christians in order to finish the race.
The Hebrew word "yada" refers to an intimate relationship/knowledge gained through experience, such as in Genesis 4:1, Adam knew (yada) Eve, she conceived, and gave brith to Cain. God's way is the way to know Him and Jesus by being in His likeness through experiencing being a doer of His character traits, such as in Genesis 18:19, God knew (yada) Abraham that he would teach his children and those of His household to walk in His way by being a doer of righteousness and justice that the Lord might bring to him all that He has promised. In Exodus 33:13, Moses wanted God to be gracious to him by teaching him to walk in His way that he and Israel might know (yada) Him, in 1 Kings 2:1-3, God taught how to walk in His way through His law, and in Matthew 7:23, Jesus said that he would tell those who are workers of lawlessness to depart from him because he never knew them, so the goal of the law to teach us how to know God and Jesus by walking in His way, which is the way to eternal life (John 17:3), and which intrinsically requires us to obey God's law in order to experience having an intimate relationship with Him. This is also why those who abide in Christ are obligated to walk in the same way that he walked (1 John 2:6).

You CAN be born again, yet end up in hell because of your apostasy. Do not be fooled nor lazy about your relationship with God.
In 1 John 3:4-10, those who continue to be doers of lawlessness have neither seen nor know him and those who are not doers of righteousness in obedience to God's law are not children of God. Likewise, in Romans 8:4-14, Paul contested the who are born of the Spirit with those who have minds set on the flesh who are enemies of God who refuse to submit to God's law.

While it's not a religion, it is a relationship,
Christianity is a religion by definition, so there is no need to deny that reality in order to emphasize that it as a religion that teaches us how to have an intimate relationship with God and Jesus.
 
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Clare73

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You didn't address my point, which was in relation to John 6:39. Yes, I know that
God's desires is not the same as His will that can't be thwarted and I'm not saying otherwise.
God's "desire" is the same Greek word as his "will," which secret will (Dt 29:29) is always done.
God's revealed will for Pharaoh was, "Let my people go," (Ex 4:22), while his secret will was, "I will harden his heart so that he will not let the people go." (Ex 4:21).
Just because God's revealed will (Ex 4:22) is not done does not mean his secret will (Ex 4:21) is not always done.
The same Greek word used in John 6:39, which is thelēma, to refer to God's will is used in the following passage, which I already showed you and you didn't address.
Luke 12:45 But and if that servant say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; and shall begin to beat the menservants and maidens, and to eat and drink, and to be drunken; 46 The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers. 47 And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.
Clearly, God's servant that Jesus referenced here did not obey God's will/desire for him, so he was punished. In John 6:39 it talks about it being God's will/desire (same Greek word) that Jesus should lose nothing,
Not quite what he said. . .read Jn 6:39 again.
yet the following verse says he lost one, the son of perdition. Which most understand to be referring to Judas Iscariot.
In the gospels, the servants (of the kingdom and of the vine) include tares and fruitless branches, respectively, those who profess faith but do not possess saving faith.

This disobedient servant was a tare, a fruitless branch and was not one of those given to Jesus that he would not lose.
John 17:12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.
 
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fhansen

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This use of Romans 6:1-2 is curious to me. It was, of course, a defense of Paul's previous statement that where sin abounded, grace abounded much more (Ro 5:20). Those who embrace the triumph of God's grace over sin (Paul, for example) are falsely accused of taking the position that grace warrants additional sinning so that more grace can occur. This, of course, is the position you (and others are taking). As I said above, this is curious to me.

But as Paul goes on to say, that position is untennable be cause people who embrace the triumph of God's grace over their sins have been changed on the inside through their death together with Christ to sin and their ressurection together with Christ from the dead and are now alive to God and dead to sin. They no longer have desires for sin, they don't like sin, and they don't want sin. (As an asside, a study of Paul's "together with Christ" sayings is quite interesting).

I can't see any good reason for people to castigate God's grace or to think that embracing grace is a promotion of sin. Maybe someone could explain that.
So if someone is changed so that they "no longer have desires for sin, they don't like sin, and they don't want sin", then why do believers still sin?
 
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B Griffin

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So if someone is changed so that they "no longer have desires for sin, they don't like sin, and they don't want sin", then why do believers still sin?
I'm pretty sure we have discussed this before without resolution. Nevertheless, the reason is that saved people "delight in the law of God according to the inward man" (Ro 7:22). But there is "another law in [their] members, warring against the law of [their] mind, and bringing [them] into captivity to the law of sin which is in [their] members" (Ro 7:23). This close proximity to sin makes them feel "wretched" and they long for "deliverance" from their "body of death" (Ro 7:24). Their only reasonable conclusion is Jesus has delivered them from the body of death which serves "the law of sin" by giving them a mind with which they "serve the law of God" (Ro 7:25). And they accept the fact that there is "Now no condemnation" for the evil deeds of their flesh because now they "are in Christ Jesus" (Ro 8:1) and not in the flesh (Ro 8:9).
 
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fhansen

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The only real objection against OSAS is not salvation... it is sin.
The objection, of course, is that OSAS could be interpreted as a "license to sin."
The objection is that OSAS, related to the doctrine of Sola Fide, effectively separates the need for one to be righteous and live accordingly in order to enter heaven from being an actual qualification for entering heaven. With that view, faith, alone, meets that qualification whether as a one-time act or an ongoing act. Or, to cover all bases, one is said to somehow be made righteous anyway, as a side-benefit of faith/being justified (and not as an integral part of justification or being made just). A problem in any case is that believers continue to sin, of course.

In the ancient faith, we're justified unto righteousness now, unto 'slavery to righteousness' (Rom 6), a new righteousness apart from the law that the law and prophets testify to but could never accomplish in us (Rom 3:20-21). So how is a person justified, by simply being forgiven, or also by being given a new righteousness, empowered to sin no more?

“I will put my law in their minds
and write it on their hearts.
I will be their God,
and they will be my people.
No longer will they teach their neighbor,
or say to one another, ‘Know the Lord,’
because they will all know me,
from the least of them to the greatest,”
declares the Lord.
“For I will forgive their wickedness

and will remember their sins no more.” Jer 31:33-34
The counter to OSAS is TLLF - "Twice Lost, Lost Forever." This is commonly heard when quoting Heb 10 as proof against OSAS.

Hebrews 10:26-27 KJV
26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

Who has not sinned since they were saved?
This is the next logical question, and it's one the church faced and dealt with many, many centuries ago. The early Christians had given up much in order to convert to the faith, including their lives at times. Becoming Christian was to turn from, to deny, the world and its ways and its sin- and turn to God. To return to sin in a major way: murder, theft, adultery, etc was to turn one’s back on and away from God and His church. As they were quite the rigorists in this observance of the faith, it was considered to be impossible for such a person to return to fellowship again. And passages such as the one you quoted from Heb or Heb 6:4-6 or 2 Pet 2:20-22 or 1 John 5:16-17, etc, only supported such notions which was the standard attitude throughout the various churches throughout the whole church world. But in the 2nd century a bishop, amid much heated controversy, determined and taught, based on a deeper understanding of God’s mercy and love, that one could repent for any sin and return to the fold even if much penance and time was required back then. This teaching would eventually become adopted by the whole church.

So, we have these two extremes: of no repentance with forgiveness possible in the early church, to a modern position of virtually taking forgiveness for granted or even being unconcerned with sin at an even greater extreme. The church came to understand and strike a balanced position between these extremes: knowing that absolute perfect sinlessness would be impossible in this life even while that was nonetheless the proper goal, and yet that our striving towards that goal with success, now with the help of grace to overcome egregious sins, sins that will bar us from heaven and sonship of God according to Romans, Galatians, 1 Cor, Revelation, John’s letters, etc, is necessary. To fail to do so means we either haven’t entered any real relationship with Him, or have departed from it.
 
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fhansen

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Their only reasonable conclusion is Jesus has delivered them from the body of death which serves "the law of sin" by giving them a mind with which they "serve the law of God" (Ro 7:25). And they accept the fact that there is "Now no condemnation" for the evil deeds of their flesh because now they "are in Christ Jesus" (Ro 8:1) and not in the flesh (Ro 8:9).
Yep, pretty sure there won't be resolution here today, anyway :). But we can read on in Romans. What's the answer to Paul's dilemma presented in Rom 7, given at the end? The answer is "deliverance through Jesus Christ!" Likewise, why is there no condemnation in Christ Jesus as stated at the beginning of Rom 8? The answer is given in vs 4, "He condemned sin in the flesh, in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the flesh but according to the Spirit". Vs 12-14 gives clartiy on this:

"Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation—but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live. For those who are led by the Spirit of God are the children of God."

God isn't interested in a pretense of righteousness. Instead he gives us the means to actually overcome unrighteousness, to become a "slave to righteousness" (Rom 6), for man to finally become who he was created to be.
 
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Clare73

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The objection is that OSAS, related to the doctrine of Sola Fide, effectively separates the need for one to be righteous and live accordingly in order to enter heaven from an actual qualification for entering heaven. With that view, faith, alone, meets that qualification whether as a one-time act or an ongoing act. Or, to cover all bases, one is said to somehow be made righteous anyway, as a side-benefit of faith/being justified (and not as an integral part of justification or being made just). A problem in any case is that believers continue to sin, of course.
In the ancient faith, we're justified unto righteousness now, unto 'slavery to righteousness' (Rom 6), a new righteousness apart from the law that the law and prophets testify to but could never accomplish in us (Rom 3:20-21). So how is a person justified, by simply being forgiven, or also by being given a new righteousness, empowered to sin no more?
So believers do not sin?

Not according to the NT (1Jn 1:8-10).
 
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fhansen

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So believers do not sin?

Not according to the NT (1Jn 1:8-10).
Well if you read the whole post I doubt you'd ask the question, as I addressed it, pretty extensively, in fact. And related to this we should consider 1 John 3:4-6 and 1 John 5:18, also in the NT:

"No one who continues to sin has either seen Him or known Him."

"We know that anyone born of God does not continue to sin; the One who was born of God keeps them safe, and the evil one cannot harm them."
 
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