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NDE of Dr. Richard Eby verifies old earth and gap theory.

Do you like the theory, old earth with a gap between Genesis 1:1 to Genesis 1:2?

  • Yes, this is one of the most logical explanations I have heard.

  • No, the earth is only 6000 to 10000 years old. Dr. Ian Juby said so!

  • Yes, so maybe Mr. Al Gore was right about the ice being 650,000 years old.

  • No, the fall of the Devil/Lucifer theory is a complete myth!


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PsychoSarah

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Right, so take an ancient phrase, apply a modern meaning to that, and declare the ancient text wrong.
Ok, so how has the meaning of how Jacob bred striped goats and spotted sheep been changed to make it "wrong"? Does it not say that he forced them to stare at branches to get his results? Honestly, you cannot get consistently striped offspring from non-striped offspring at all, and I'd be impressed if you crossed thousands of non-striped goats and managed to get even 1 baby goat with stripes.

Rabbits re-eat true decal matter with partially digested food. They areny a ruminant but the "chew the cud" inthe spirit of what the trxt in Leviticus says.

Try better.
You try better; even I later corrected myself, since the better translation is that it is talking about hyraxes (which still don't chew their cud, but exhibit a behavior that very much looks like chewing cud). Old, dead threads make for cheap shots.
 
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JDD_III

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Ok, so how has the meaning of how Jacob bred striped goats and spotted sheep been changed to make it "wrong"? Does it not say that he forced them to stare at branches to get his results? Honestly, you cannot get consistently striped offspring from non-striped offspring at all, and I'd be impressed if you crossed thousands of non-striped goats and managed to get even 1 baby goat with stripes.


You try better; even I later corrected myself, since the better translation is that it is talking about hyraxes (which still don't chew their cud, but exhibit a behavior that very much looks like chewing cud). Old, dead threads make for cheap shots.
Huh? What are you talking about? I was quoting a post you made about animals that chew the cud and biblical inaccuracy which you were linking. I apologise if I missed your later (?) correction, but was going on what you wrote.

What this has to do with Jacob breeding animals I have no clue.
 
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PsychoSarah

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Huh? What are you talking about? I was quoting a post you made about animals that chew the cud and biblical inaccuracy which you were linking. I apologise if I missed your later (?) correction, but was going on what you wrote.

What this has to do with Jacob breeding animals I have no clue.
The overall post was about how the bible gets basic biology wrong. The later correction I made was in an entirely different thread. These are the risks you take in challenging a post months after the thread it was posted in has died.

Furthermore, how Jacob bred those animals in the argument of this type that I bring up most often. No matter how many non-striped goats you get to mate while staring at branches, you will not get striped offspring this way. You definitely won't get the consistency portrayed in the bible. I challenge you to demonstrate otherwise, or demonstrate that this was a mistranslation.
 
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Radrook

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The overall post was about how the bible gets basic biology wrong. The later correction I made was in an entirely different thread. These are the risks you take in challenging a post months after the thread it was posted in has died.

Furthermore, how Jacob bred those animals in the argument of this type that I bring up most often. No matter how many non-striped goats you get to mate while staring at branches, you will not get striped offspring this way. You definitely won't get the consistency portrayed in the bible. I challenge you to demonstrate otherwise, or demonstrate that this was a mistranslation.

Bible readers aren’t required to believe such a silly thing and neither was Jacob since God sent an angel in a dream to make sure that he understood that the sheep were turning out in colors favorable to him because God was intervening and that it had absolutely NOTHING to do with his silly efforts.

Genesis 31:7–16

7 yet your father has cheatedb me by changing my wagesc ten times.d However, God has not allowed him to harm me.e 8 If he said, ‘The speckled ones will be your wages,’ then all the flocks gave birth to speckled young; and if he said, ‘The streaked ones will be your wages,’f then all the flocks bore streaked young. 9 So God has taken away your father’s livestockg and has given them to me.h

10 “In breeding season I once had a dreami in which I looked up and saw that the male goats mating with the flock were streaked, speckled or spotted. 11 The angel of Godj said to me in the dream,k ‘Jacob.’ I answered, ‘Here I am.’l 12 And he said, ‘Look up and see that all the male goats mating with the flock are streaked, speckled or spotted,m for I have seen all that Laban has been doing to you.n 13 I am the God of Bethel,o where you anointed a pillarp and where you made a vowq to me. Now leave this land at once and go back to your native land.r’ ”
 
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PsychoSarah

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Bible readers aren’t required to believe such a silly thing and neither was Jacob since God sent an angel in a dream to make sure that he understood that the sheep were turning out in colors favorable to him because God was intervening and that it had absolutely NOTHING to do with his silly efforts.
Quick question: why was the benevolent Christian god helping a man whom stole the blessing that rightfully belonged to his brother? And helping him to cheat Laban out of his flock as well, if you consider the way he got striped offspring a miracle rather than actually being related to Jacob's actions (not suggested in the bible, as the dream in which God asserts that the striped and dark animals belong to Jacob does not mention how they came to be that color at all).

Jacob deceived Laban by promising a fair division of the flock in a way that would allow them to easily distinguish between their animals. Yet, Jacob ensured that the strong animals, whether they belonged to Laban or to him, would always have offspring of the coloration that indicated that they belonged to him.
 
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Radrook

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Quick question: why was the benevolent Christian god helping a man whom stole the blessing that rightfully belonged to his brother? And helping him to cheat Laban out of his flock as well, if you consider the way he got striped offspring a miracle rather than actually being related to Jacob's actions (not suggested in the bible, as the dream in which God asserts that the striped and dark animals belong to Jacob does not mention how they came to be that color at all).

Jacob deceived Laban by promising a fair division of the flock in a way that would allow them to easily distinguish between their animals. Yet, Jacob ensured that the strong animals, whether they belonged to Laban or to him, would always have offspring of the coloration that indicated that they belonged to him.

Esau:

Esau sold his birthright to Jacob for some stew and in that way demonstrated his lack of appreciation.

I am at the point to die (starving), and what profit shall this birthright do to me" (Genesis 25:32)?

So it wasn't theft. You cannot steal what you own because you bought it.

Esau is described as profane in the NT:

"Lest there be any fornicator, or profane person, as Esau, who for one morsel of meat sold his birthright" (Hebrews 12:16).

Esau Sold His Birthright: Or Did Jacob Steal It?

------------------------------------

Laban:

Laban is described as dishonest treacherous individual who was exploiting Jacob.

Genesis 31:7–16

7 yet your father has cheated me by changing my wages ten times.d However, God has not allowed him to harm me. 8 If he said, ‘The speckled ones will be your wages,’ then all the flocks gave birth to speckled young; and if he said, ‘The streaked ones will be your wages,’ then all the flocks bore streaked young. 9 So God has taken away your father’s livestock and has given them to me.

10 “In breeding season I once had a dreami in which I looked up and saw that the male goats mating with the flock were streaked, speckled or spotted. 11 The angel of Godj said to me in the dream, ‘Jacob.’ I answered, ‘Here I am.’ 12 And he said, ‘Look up and see that all the male goats mating with the flock are streaked, speckled or spotted, for I have seen all that Laban has been doing to you. 13 I am the God of Bethel, where you anointed a pillar and where you made a vow to me. Now leave this land at once and go back to your native land.’ ”

But that had been preceded by the first treachery which was to give him Leah his oldest daughter whom Jacob did not find physically attractive instead of Rachel as had been agreed upon and forcing Jacob to work seven additional years before finally allowing him to formally marry her.

Genesis 29:21-35

Laban even went after Jacob to deprive him of his property when Jacob began to travel back to Canaan [as was his right] and as God had told him to do. Laban was only dissuaded when God warned him not to try it.

Jacob in response lost his patience under this last provocation when he saw Laban approach with armed men and enumerated all the treacheries that Laban had inflicted upon him. Now he wanted to take away all he had earned as well?

Gen 31:42
"If the God of my father ... had not been with me, you would surely have sent me away empty-handed. But God has seen my hardship and the toil of my hands, and last night he rebuked you."


Troubles Jacob had at Haran:


  • Deceit. Laban tricked him into an extra seven years of labor.
  • Idolatry. He has at least one wife -- his true love -- who worships idols.
  • Family conflict. There's an ongoing conflict between Jacob's wives and children.
  • In-law injustice Laban who changes his wages ten times, always trying to better himself at Jacob's expense.
  • Escape. He has to flee when Laban is away to be able to go home.
 
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AV1611VET

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I was impressed with the explanation given for the fall of Lucifer which would quite possibly fit with an earth that may well be 4.5 billion years old.

Apparently a lot happened between the original creation of the earth and the time when the repairing of the earth was made necessary due to an attempted coup d'etat by Lucifer and the angels who decided to follow him!!
How old was the earth prior to the coup d'état? the day it was created?

If you say it was day old, then aren't you a young earth creationist?
 
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Radrook

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Genesis doesn't mention nor indicate that there was any coup d'état prior to the six preparatory days. It simply describes a stage in which the Earth existed prior to those days. In other words, there is absolutely no basis to assume that God was REPAIRING damage done by Satan. Where the heck do people find these ideas?
 
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Justatruthseeker

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I was impressed with the explanation given for the fall of Lucifer which would quite possibly fit with an earth that may well be 4.5 billion years old.

Apparently a lot happened between the original creation of the earth and the time when the repairing of the earth was made necessary due to an attempted coup d'etat by Lucifer and the angels who decided to follow him!!


.near-death.com/forum/nde/000/91.html

Also note in the original Hebrew the second word of the second verse of the Bible is "hayah". It never means "was", but always means a change of one state to another.

Strong's Hebrew: 1961. הָיָה (hayah) -- to fall out, come to pass, become, be

"to fall out, come to pass, become, be"

So the earth "became" desolate and waste, and darkness "became" upon.......

Couple this with the fact that the verb in the first verse is in the past tense, meaning finished or completed. Now I wont attempt to argue for or against a comet or angels falling from heaven (the sixth destruction), but will let each decide on his/her own what caused the earth to fall out from a flourishing state into a state of desolation and ruin, destroying the dinosaurs in the process (the 5th creation)
 
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Justatruthseeker

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Genesis doesn't mention nor indicate that there was any coup d'état prior to the six preparatory days. It simply describes a stage in which the Earth existed prior to those days. In other words, there is absolutely no basis to assume that God was REPAIRING damage done by Satan. Where the heck do people find these ideas?

And yet wasnt it a third of the angels cast out of heaven down to the earth in chains of dense darkness? And wasnt the earth covered in darkness? See above post.

2 Peter 2:4 For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but sent them to hell, putting them in chains of darkness to be held for judgment;

Peter understood it happened some time in the past, otherwise they wouldnt have been there when jesus went and preached to them. And if they were in hell, (hate this word as it doesnt portray the original meaning of sheol or hades) how did they get into people?
 
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Justatruthseeker

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The earth was already flourishing with life prior to man. Life that has went extinct in several eras, after which all new forms of life arose. Then the last catastrophe struck.

In the oldest manuscripts there is a mark of a pause between the first and second verse. It may be as science tells us, that this globe existed millions of years ago; that it has been the habitation of numerous and varied races of animated beings; and that it has undergone many great destruction's and creations before it was brought into its present state: none of these views are in the least discordant with the statement of the inspired historian, that “in beginning God created the heavens and the earth.”

In twenty places in this chapter the verb “was” is used as the equivalent to “became”. The true meaning of the Hebrew word "hayah".

The Earth "became" desolate and waste, (tohu wa bohu - used nowhere else together in the Bible except this verse and two other places, and always when used elsewhere point to a once flourishing condition that was then laid waste - Gen 1:2; Isa. 34:11; Jer. 4:23) and darkness overspread the Earth. At this time (man) did not exist prior, nor any of the current animals found with skeletons of modern man, except in a few rare cases as in one or two classes of reptiles and fish that survived this worldwide cataclysm, and the untold number before, told of before science had ever thought of such a thing as possible.

Comet, meteor, fallen angels? Who knows? It is quite accurate when interpreted properly. After unknown periods of time another act of creation occurred, this time with a notable exception, one worth bothering to describe in more detail, unlike any others that may have occurred previously. But then a new creation happened, the waters were separated from the waters (evaporation). "Let there be light...divided the light from the darkness". In Hebrew literally: " divided between the light and between darkness." Where all had previously been darkness due to the destruction, the addition of heat began separating the clouds. The events in the entire chapter are described as if one's viewpoint is from the earth.

It must be noted that the word 'ohr is not the same word used in verse 14 signifying "lights," or "luminaries," ma-'ohr; rather, it signifies "heat." the effect, which immediately followed is described in the name Day, which in Hebrew signifies "warmth."

So heat began penetrating into the depths after God acted, separating the clouds, letting light into the depths, the clouds had been so low as to contact the Earth itself. But heat allowed evaporation and the waters above were separated from the waters below and dry land appeared.

Every past form of life sprang from nowhere, lived for a time, different breeds of that kind prospering, then went extinct due to cataclysmic actions. In its place all new life once again sprang up, to again repeat the cycle. The Bible just affirms this, when it told you of the earth becoming desolate and waste, and the darkness that became upon it, encompassing it around. Hence the dinosaurs died out. It then described the "sixth" such event, when man himself was created.

There have been 5 - count them, 5 major extinction events. Mankind and the animals with him were created "after" this 5th extinction event, the 6th creative act.

Extinction event - Wikipedia

Soon there will be a sixth destruction and then a seventh and final creation, in which all new yet similar lifeforms will appear, such as a lion-like creature that eats straw.
 
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pat34lee

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Despite the sarcastic options given in the quiz, the answer is absolutely NO.
Satan did not fall until after Adam was expelled from the garden, and he
has not yet been cast from heaven. I think it will become quite apparent
when it does happen.

The gap theory is a poor attempt to reconcile the bible to man's theories.
Instead, remember who is God, and who is not. From there you have one
choice: believe him or don't.
 
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pat34lee

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The earth was already flourishing with life prior to man. Life that has went extinct in several eras, after which all new forms of life arose. Then the last catastrophe struck.

This all makes for great fiction except for one problem.
It makes God into a liar and completely evil. It would
make God the creator of sin and death before man lived.
It would also make him an imbecile who can't tell time
from day one to day six without taking a billion year hiatus.
 
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Justatruthseeker

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This all makes for great fiction except for one problem.
It makes God into a liar and completely evil. It would
make God the creator of sin and death before man lived.
It would also make him an imbecile who can't tell time
from day one to day six without taking a billion year hiatus.
Which would in your view make God an evil being, since he condemned Adam to death without Adam being able to comprehend what death was.

But hey, show me in the Bible where animals are ever promised or given eternal life... and man was not immortal either..... "lest he stretch out his hand....eat also of the tree of life and live forever."

So who really is not only making God out to be evil, but a liar as well? After all, Adam was expelled after his fall lest he eat also of the tree of life and live forever, which means he was never immortal to begin with, but like at the end times was required to eat from the 12 trees which heal the nations to sustain his life.

Only man is able to receive the gift of eternal life now due to Jesus's sacrifice, nowhere are animals offered this gift or able to partake of it. So I guess you believe your God is evil since animals will never be given the gift of immortality.
 
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FrumiousBandersnatch

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I certainly like the fact that 34 percent of the respondents to the poll are on the same page as I am on this question.
That's characteristic of self-selected polls; people who feel strongly about it or have a vested interest are more likely to express their opinions. It's analogous to online product complaints - people who are dissatisfied are more likely to register their opinion online than others.

Also, the poll is a biased subset of possible opinions on the question.
 
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Justatruthseeker

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That's characteristic of self-selected polls; people who feel strongly about it or have a vested interest are more likely to express their opinions. It's analogous to online product complaints - people who are dissatisfied are more likely to register their opinion online than others.

Also, the poll is a biased subset of possible opinions on the question.
All polls are biased subsets of possible opinions based upon what the poller is trying to show. Whether the poll is about creation, evolution or global warming.....
 
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FrumiousBandersnatch

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All polls are biased subsets of possible opinions based upon what the poller is trying to show. Whether the poll is about creation, evolution or global warming.....
Not necessarily. Polls can give an exhaustive list of unbiased options for simple topics. But when a poll has an incomplete set of logical options and appends a specific reason to each - as above - they generally are more a tool of confirmation bias than an attempt to discover what people think.
 
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Justatruthseeker

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Not necessarily. Polls can give an exhaustive list of unbiased options for simple topics. But when a poll has an incomplete set of logical options and appends a specific reason to each - as above - they generally are more a tool of confirmation bias than an attempt to discover what people think.
But there was an option for it being simply a myth, which has more votes than his by a small margin, so your complaining his came in second and it being a myth came in first?

opinions are a dime a dozen and worth less than a penny each, but we all have them anyways....
 
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