Muslims and God

[Gxg (G²)]

Note that if memory serves, the Bektashi veneration predates the schism in Macedonia. Also, schisms can be resolved; the present schism in Macedonia is a political artifact, not entirely unlike the now-resolved schism between the MP and ROCOR.

The Bektashis however are not typical Muslims; they are related to the Alevis and Alawis and are much despised by, for example, the vile regime of Erdogan. Some say they are crypto Christian; not I; I have read Bektashi writings which attack Christianity.

Indeed. In example, with regards to those at Saint Nicholas Orthodox Church in Brod, Macedonia....Bektashi Muslims have a very interesting relationship with Orthodox Christians (specifically with the Macedonian Orthodox Church and how it operates in many of the unique ways that it does) and the schism itself really is a remnant of things which were already resolved largely at the grassroots level. But even without the schism, as you note, there were things predating it and interactions with Muslims and Orthodox on a gracious/respectful level where both acknowledge relationship with God have been a long time development.

And even outside of what occurred with the Macedonian Orthodox Church, others have echoed their actions and thus it would be irrelevant as to whether others feel they are in schism since one of the Orthodox patriarchs has already spoken on the issue flatly. As said earlier, Patriarch John X echoed the Macedonian Orthodox Church in a very direct presentation when he was interviewed on the Church in Syria since his stance was that Muslims were brothers to Christians and (as younger brothers in competition - opposite of the older brothers, Jews, who do not realize the blessings for Christians/the Church as inheritors of what Biblical Judaism was meant to be ) do not have fullness and yet they are still family.

In his words, as noted in Patriarch John X Interviewed on the Church in Syria: Antioche Orthodox:

If they want to use the issue of the abduction of Bishops as a card to break up the region and fragmentation, and if some think that the issue of Christians is one of the papers that they could use to reach certain goals, and if they thought they nurture through this file method in dramatize Christians and intimidate them, we tell them, despite the difficult circumstance Despite the bitterness of the days they were completely wrong, because that is not afraid nor leads us to change our opinion or to give up any right we are sticking to. We as Christians live alongside Muslims brothers in this land precious nothing separates us from them.

More than fourteen centuries of fraternal coexistence among the various communities in the region have not ridden throughout history, such as the crisis in the region, this exceptional stage not need to be an extraordinary steps....


We live in these precious days in memory of the sacrifice of Ibrahim Abu parents, where express provision of the Eucharist, or the sacrifice of faith in the Lord, and submit to him and that you converted to Islam yourself to God, and then distribute it to the poor and needy people in order to eat them, and send them to heaven, this means that when we say for a Muslim that he devout celebrates Eid al-Adha, we mean the following; it offers an offering to God an expression of faith in Him and submit to him and this faith Ahdk to human brother, he is giving in the end to his fellow man poor in need, to be able to flesh eating if he was unable to do so If there is no religion, no humanitarian principle, accept things that occur, particularly, unfortunately, under the religion slogan, this is rejected by Muslims and Christians, and we have become as a result of blind extremism use the word moderate, after we imposed events a new dictionary, and every event that we are both of us on the cooperation and the meeting continues with each other, with the Grand Mufti Ahmad Badr al-Din Hassoun with which he has brothers Fbath our house and our house his home, we are on the case and one with our fellow scientists virtue and tolerance owners, and even the Arab world such as the Sheikh of Al-Azhar and all of the law of God, and anyone else who works his conscience and the law of God in inside, everyone reject extremism as believers in the Lord in Syria and the region, but it has become clear that the policy is one of the lies behind such behavior, not religion, and we hope that people open their hearts to God, and guided by, and knows that when a person holding a sword and say "Allahu Akbar" and to kill his brother, as slaughtered chicken, where is and where it is going.

Several conferences and meetings held in Syria, Lebanon and others have participated in some of them, at the local, regional and global level, and always went out by everyone, without exception, Muslims and Christians to renounce extremism and lack of acceptance, it is very important to hear the voice of truth, and spoken the truth and this attitude announce States international organizations, the World Council of Churches in Geneva was held more than a conference, and this conference did not have a political edge, but were meetings humanitarian church adopts human rights..​

The Patriarch was also very clear when he stated the following in Patriarch John X and the God Who is With Us | AntiochianA:

The Patriarch said that we are not looking for protection. Protection for us, while peaceful Muslim brothers and sisters who lived with us for centuries remain unprotected, is not enough. We need peace. We need outside powers to stop interfering in Syria and stop imposing their own agenda. Syria needs peace.


​

There are many other leaders within Orthodoxy who've spoken on the issue - and the history of the Church itself bears witness to that reality. The interaction of St. Francis of Assisi with the Sultan comes immediately to mind - and as it concerns Orthodox interactions since the beginnings,

Additionally, there's actually an excellent book on the issue entitled The Church in the Shadow of the Mosque: Christians and Muslims in the World of Islam by Sidney H. Griffith

• 
  
  
  • The Cross Under the
  • Crescent - Article | First Things
  • The Church in the Shadow of the Mosque - Hamline Law
  • Review: Sidney Griffith, the Church in the Shadow of the Mosque
  • The Church in the Shadow of the Mosque: Christians and Muslims

​

As another noted best (for brief excerpt):

Griffith is concerned to show how the terms of discourse were basically set by the Islamic attacks on Christianity. For example, the list of topics found in popular genres of Christian apologetics in Syriac and Arabic in the early Islamic period are “distinctively Islamic” (97). Christian kalam is basically a borrowing of the “Islamic style of religious discourse in Arabic” (89)....Our author is also concerned to point out that although the characters are often fictional or symbolic in the popular apologetic genres that depicted dialogue between Christians and Muslims, these texts nevertheless shed light on real historical circumstances of open dialogue between Muslims and Christians (102-103). Griffin also shows a concern to demonstrate that Christians made use of the authority of the Qur’an to validate their Christian doctrines to the Muslims (168-70). Finally, Griffith thinks that Christianity should not discount the churches that were considered as “dissident churches” by the exclusive Roman imperial authority (129). Latin Christians in particular, Griffith thinks, have wrongly considered Christians of the Orient as heretical and schismatic.​

 

[ArmyMatt]

Note that if memory serves, the Bektashi veneration predates the schism in Macedonia. Also, schisms can be resolved; the present schism in Macedonia is a political artifact, not entirely unlike the now-resolved schism between the MP and ROCOR.

ROCOR was not a full schism, there never has been, to my knowledge, a canonical autocephalus Macedonian Church. but I dunno enough about the Bektashi history to say anything. what I do know is what the Macedonian group is, and that ain't Orthodox.

The Bektashis however are not typical Muslims; they are related to the Alevis and Alawis and are much despised by, for example, the vile regime of Erdogan. Some say they are crypto Christian; not I; I have read Bektashi writings which attack Christianity.

I am sure. Islam has it's various at odds groups

 

[ArmyMatt]

Pastafarianism, unlike Islam, does not begin with among other things a revelation allegedly from St. Gabriel, the view that Jesus was a prophet, a major prophet, whose words were distorted by the Church, requiring Mohammed to restate them, and other doctrines that represent a derivative of Christian doctrine, for example, Islamic eschatology, the Islamic doctrine of Shaitan, et cetera.

I think you mean Rastafarian. Pastafarians mockingly worship the Flying Spaghetti Monster

 

[Wgw]

I think you mean Rastafarian. Pastafarians mockingly worship the Flying Spaghetti Monster

@Kristos mentioned the Pastafarians, so I assume he meant the Flying Spaghetti Monster. Part of me privately suspects that the FSM is modelled on Yog Sogoth from the Cthulu mythos of HP Lovecraft.

That said, Rastas are obviously members a degenerate heretical form of Christianity that has basically enshrined smoking weed as their main sacrament; rhey however abuse our Scripture; most Rasta specific theology is found in Reggae music.

ROCOR was not a full schism, there never has been, to my knowledge, a canonical autocephalus Macedonian Church. but I dunno enough about the Bektashi history to say anything. what I do know is what the Macedonian group is, and that ain't Orthodox.

The situation in Macedonia is very sad, in that the FYROM regime basically stole the church from the people of that country, and has imprisoned and abused the legitimate Serbian hierarch, for purely nationalist reasons.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

@Kristos mentioned the Pastafarians, so I assume he meant the Flying Spaghetti Monster. Part of me privately suspects that the FSM is modelled on Yog Sogoth from the Cthulu mythos of HP Lovecraft.

That said, Rastas are obviously members a degenerate heretical form of Christianity that has basically enshrined smoking weed as their main sacrament; rhey however abuse our Scripture; most Rasta specific theology is found in Reggae music.

Don't know where the information came from about Rastas, but I grew up with Rastafarian culture in the West Indies - and been to Jamaica multiple times with Jamaican family/friends (and been called a Rasta several times here in the U.S and there). They did NOT enshrine weed as their main sacrament as fact nor do they abuse scripture if actually aware of what they have actually taught rather than going with the stereotype. Moreover, many of them are actually accepted in the Ethiopian Orthodox Church since there are differing variations. The Rastas who are a part of the Ethiopian Orthodox Church honor His Imperial Majesty Haile Selassie as the representative of Christ and honor His lifestyle in the same way Lutherans do the same with Luther, although those claiming His Imperial Majesty is God incarnate are obviously in sin and those are the ones who are troublesome. Most of the other Rastas are simply a Roots Christianity and akin to what one would see with Jewish Berbers who are Nomadic and people of the land.

Living among the actual people who get stereotyped a lot from a distance instead of interactions occurring with them on a personal level, it always seems surprising whenever people speak broadly of groups without any real context.

And the interactions for Rastas is very complex for Orthodox. More can be gleaned in Interview with Abuna Yesehaq About Bob Marley's Conversion - as the man established Orthodoxy in Jamaica and worked intimately with Rastafarians.

​

​

Some of this has been tackled more in-depth elsewhere from an Orthodox perspective (including where Bob Marley was saved into the Ethiopian Orthodox Church):

The cultural aspects of Rastafari that I retain and respect are:

*love and concern for Africa as our ancestral homeland. This might not seem like a big deal for people with a natural connection with the land of their fathers. But for people of African or mixed descent in the West, there has often been shame associated with being Black or having ancestors that were slaves. Rastafari elders were some of the first people to teach people of African descent not to be ashamed of Africa or our physical features, but to be proud of our history and who we are.

*Identification with the poor and the sufferers. I love this about Rastafari. It is a movement of poor people and people who suffer oppression to live with dignity and "upfullness" (hope).

*Respect for His Imperial Majesty Haile Selassie I. Of course, I do not worship him, but I love his writings, the fact that he sent bishops from the Ethiopian Church to the caribbean to catechize the Rastas that were worshipping him and that he gave a portion of his personal land, Sheshamane, for people of African descent who desired to "repatriate."

*My dreadlocks My husband, my son and I all have them.

*The aesthetics. I wear red, gold and green which have a special significance for us. I love my head wraps, my tams, my long skirts. I love the greetings ("peace, Ras." "one love, empress.")

*Ital food Ital means vital. Ital food is fresh and unprocessed. No meat, no dairy and no salt. Natural medicines when possible. I don't always eat ital, though I should. The Rasta elders taught us to live close to the earth and in harmony with nature.

*The music! Here as with other genres, there is a mixed bag to be found in reggae. I take the good and leave the rest. It may not be your cup of tea, but I love roots-rock-reggae, the themes of which draw a lot from the Scriptures. I've linked one of my favorite songs below. Note the Scriptural references:

Psalm 118:19 - Open to me the gates of righteousness:
I will go into them, and I will praise the LORD:
Isaiah 26:2 - Open ye the gates, that the righteous
nation which keepeth the truth may enter in.

Isaiah 43:6 - I will say to the north, Give up;
and to the south, Keep not back: bring my sons from far,
and my daughters from the ends of the earth;

M.

I was never incorporated into Rastafari, but I have a number of friends among the Rastas. If you want to converse with more Rastas who have embraced Christianity and especially Orthodox Christianity, you can find many at this forum Fulfilled Rastafari House - Serving Jah & Rastafari

Rastafari has always been a blend of many different beliefs. The worship of H.I.M. Haile Selassie I has been most widespread but not all Rastas worship Selassie as god. In fact, Marcus Mosiah Garvey, a towering figure in Rastafari livity did not worship Selassie. In the 1990's I believe, the 12 tribes mansion ruled that one could be Rasta in their house and not worship Selassie, but Jah. Also, many Rastas have embraced Ethiopian Orthodox Christianity through the churches that Selassie planted in the West Indies.

The Orthodox Church is for all people regardless of nationality or background. Rastas are welcome too

M.

Being in family from the West Indies and being called a Rasta myself many times whenever I've gone to the islands, I think it should be noted that not all aspects of Rastafarian culture were ever deemed heretical. There were always differing strains within the camp. When it comes to the aspect of marijuana, for example, many in the U.S acting as potheads doing weed assuming all Rastas do so all the time - and it is a GROSS misrepresentation. For many Rastas, it's something they use in the same way that others use incense during prayer times - and it's not to be done in incense. It's done for the purposes of medication as well, with regards to Roots Theology and people who do not have access to expensive means of healing in the medical field.

Even Ethiopian Orthodox have noted this, as Bob Marley continued to smoke weed after his conversion and his Confessor Abune Yesehaq discussed this quite openly with regards to how His Grace continually mentored Bob towards moving away from this. In spite of this, to a certain degree, Abune Yesehaq respected Bob's cultural decision to use cannabis. In context, Bob Marley was baptized a few months before his passing, and he was painfully dying of high-stage, metastatic cancer. It was seen as being no better with his use of weed than the use of pharamecuticals.

But on the issue, I tend to feel that there is anything wrong with weed in/of itself. For the Church does not condemn people for drinking responsibly or smoking tobacco responsibly, so why would it condemn someone for smoking weed responsibly? It really has to do with stigma....

As it concerns His Holiness, many Rastas simply admire the Emperor as a demonstration of how Christ walked the earth - no different than others respecting Martin Luther to the point where they emulate his lifestyle and call themselves Lutherans. They take after the Emperor's formal name and thus live out devotion to Christ on that basis - whereas others deify the man and do what the emperor warned against. And this is very key really wishing to understanding what being a Rasta is about. Some of this has been discussed elsewhere, as seen in #3 /.....

And for more on the issue:

• Bob Marley Died a Christian

• Church choice

• Reggae Righteousness: Seeing Ones that are both Messianic Jewish & Rastas for Christ?

As it concerns the focus many give to the Emperor, you cannot really appreciate or understand the focus given to him by many in the West Indies without understanding the concepts behind Ethiopianism - a school of thought that had long been in place (since the days of Marcus Garvey) that believed the Messiah would come from Ethiopia due to how they interpreted scripture....more here. Adding to that the fact that the Messiah was expected to be from Africa and Black - opposite of what was emphasized in Colonial views which emphasized a Euro-Centric view of Christ not being Black - and it's no surprise to see what occurred.

For many in the Ethiopian Orthodox Church, being a Rasta is not opposite to being Orthodox anymore than it'd be opposite of Orthodox to admire and support the Church Fathers or adopt names after the saints when we're chrismated. The Emperor was truly an amazing person and that's something the Rastas have always taken seriously - and with good reason. On a side note, I don't appreciate the fact (when it comes to Oriental Orthodoxy) that a Marxist revolution in 1974 led to the overthrow of His Imperial Majesty Haile Selassie (who though an autocratic ruler of a feudal nation is remembered for modernizing Ethiopia as best as possible and leading the resistance against Italian invasion in 1935 as well as for his devout life/support of the Church ) - with the years following the coup being marked by severe persecution of Christians, church properties seized by the state, and as many as tens of thousands of Ethiopians killed during a period known as the “Red Terror.” ...for the man did so many amazing works for the people and the West Indies was truly lacking in many ways without his influence.

.... there's a GROSS difference in actually growing up around a culture and learning about it from a distance or in isolated instances. Being from the West Indies and seeing it repeatedly in action, it was necessary to address since several comments were not close to what has actually been said in what Rastas are about - and that's said in light of what has been witnessed with both friends/family, going to Jamaica and talking with strangers.

.........

Part of understanding what His Imperial Majesty Haile Selassie I did is understanding where many Ethiopians came over to help with witnessing to those caught in the negative camps of Rasta culture - many Ethiopians already knowing what happened in Rasta culture and reforming it...or saw Rastas who never held the Emperor to be Christ incarnated and thus knew how to make the difference between with extreme views and those with cultural ones which could be accepted. The split between those who were born in Ethiopia (including those who were native Ethiopians converting to the Ethiopian Orthodox Church) and those in the West Indies is often made out to be bigger than what it really is, despite where other Ethiopians have often disagreed. Just came from the Ethiopian store on my side not too long ago (as I've been friends with the manager for years since he is Ethiopian Orthodox) and it is always amazing to see the extensive variety in thought from others born in Ethiopia who came to the U.S voluntarily and still have family in Ethiopia like-minded.

Many have long pointed out that being in Diaspora in Jamaica or Barbados or Trinidad, etc., was never the basis for showing what others in the Orthodox Church hold to - nor was it ever the case that all who were Rastas started out as being outside the Church IN diaspora....a common myth that tends to get started by people not knowing what life in the West Indies is actually like. For many, to be involved in Rasta culture is no different than one asking can one be involved as an Orthodox person in Hip Hop culture or Folk Music culture and other things similar....even though others take things in each of those cultures to extremes. Bishops for particular music-based subcultures AND understanding how to operate within them is not new...and when it comes to Rasta culture, it was always about (for many) simply remembering where others may imitate the emperor in terms of his personal piety and that the only Truth who will save us is Christ.

For the casual reader, For more info on the matter...

• 
  
  • "Dread Jesus": A New View of the Rastafari Movement"

• 
  
  • SONGS OF FREEDOM: The Rastafari Road to Orthodoxy

• 
  
  • Rastafarians and Orthodoxy"

• 
  
  • Orthodox Christianity: The Rastafarian Movement

• 
  
  • "Need help responding to a Rastafarian about Orthodoxy"

• 
  
  • From Rastafari To Orthodoxy - The Illumined Heart - Ancient Faith Radio

• Looking for a Dreadlocked Jesus - Is Rasta Christian? An Interview With William David Spencer by Todd Hertz, Christianity Today

• "Judiasm & Rastafarianism: A study of the Falashas - Debate Central"

..................................................

I am aware of what HG Bishop Youssef has said on the matter, even though I appreciate his response. Nonetheless, he does not represent what all in the Ethiopian Orthodox Tewahedo Church have said on the matter when it comes to the issue of marjuanna. I don't care to smoke it nor will I ever - but it is legal in other states. Where it is legal, it is no issue - but where it is illegal, of course there is a problem to push for it without consideration and others have spoken on that often. More has been discussed on the issue elsewhere in the TAW forum - as seen in Medical Marijuana & Schedule 1

And on where Bob Marley's priest spoke on the issue...Abuna Yesehaq on Haile Selassie and the culture (as well as where he did not make the use of cannabis something that would be an impedement into being recieved into the Church when in Jamaican culture - a completely DIFFERENT context than the use of cannabis within the U.S wherever it is illegal).

Part 1
Interview with Abuna Yesehaq Part 1 of 4 - YouTube
Part 2
Interview with Abuna Yesehaq Part 2 of 4 - YouTube
Part 3
Interview with Abuna Yesehaq Part 3 of 4 - YouTube
Part 4
Interview with Abuna Yesehaq Part 4 of 4 - YouTube

And on the rest of his ministry focus:


Abune Yesehaq and The Mother Church - YouTube

Abba Yesehaq Interview.mp4 - YouTube

As another from the Ethiopian Orthodox Church wisely noted on the issue:

Abuna Yesehaq possessed keen wisdom and Christian patience in his evangelistic efforts. His brilliance was evidenced by the fact that he wisely discerned what was necessary for salvation and what was not. And what is necessary for salvation is essentially a truly repentant heart, the worship of Jesus Christ, and the confession of the Nicene Creed. Abuna Yesehaq did not require Rastas to cut their locks. He did not demand that they stop using Ganja. He did not tell them that they had to forsake their vegetarian diet and begin eating meat. He did not tell them that their music was of the devil. He only preached the Orthodox Christian Faith to them, willingly and joyfully baptizing any and all who embraced Christ and His Church.

Certainly there were aspects of the Rastafarian lifestyle that were disturbing to Abuna Yesehaq. For example, he had difficulty with the Rastas' use of Ganja. But he was wise enough not to make marijuana use an issue that precluded Holy Baptism. Instead, he trusted the Holy Spirit to deal with such matters rather than presuming to play the role of the Holy Spirit himself.

It is also interesting to contemplate the title of Abuna Yesehaq's masterful book on the Church. The book is titled: The Ethiopian Tewahedo Church: An Integrally African Church. Notice that the subtitle does not read "A Primarily African Church," "A Supremely African Church," or "An Exclusively African Church." You see, Abuna Yesehaq recognized and valued the importance of cultural identity without elevating cultural identity to a prejudicial level. So, we must follow his sagacious example, neither elevating cultural identity to an exclusive level nor devaluing it with disparagement. For to do either one is to promote prejudice and racism.

Because of Abuna Yesehaq's wisdom, countless Rastafarians have renounced the idolatry of Selassie worship and have entered the Orthodox Church.​

Wise words, IMHO, to keep in mind....

But as it concerns the use of MJ, as said elsewhere, Part of me wonders why there seems to be so much focus on mj when there are literally dozens of other herbal treatments for medicial causes that would not come close to having the stigma that mj has. One I ended up learning of in Jamaica was something called Lemon Grass ....(known for therapeutic properties and altering mood....similar to what incense does since it alters the mood of the body via smell). Currently, it's not grown on a commercial scale in Jamaica...but I so wanted to take some home after seeing it grown on a farm there---and wondering "As much as I think MJ is legitimate, so many other things could do what it does and they're not considered."

Nonethleess, as it concerns the use of cannabis, there is a lot to it which involves demonizing something which was never utilizing the body for the sake of mind-atlteration. And if one was fully against drug usage for the sake of avoiding body alteration, one should be against coffee or any other kind of stimulant. The same goes for incense - proven to alter one's mind and be a means of healing. Early in my own spiritual development, it was amazing learning of the ways that incense adds an entirely differing dimension to how we see the spiritual.

What's fascinating to me is realizing the extensive ways that smell was a BIG DEAL in the early Jewish culture and other Eastern cultures - it was essential to know what scents needed to be picked up since that is a focus for the Lord. He went out of his way to mention it many times....and when seeing that theme present in Revelation at the end, I have to wonder why many make it out like it's not a big deal.

There's an excellent book on the matter I am hoping to get a hold of in the future - entitled Scenting Salvation.

​

One can go here to Scenting Salvation | Citydesert for more - or investigate the following:

• THE OLFACTORY CONTEXT: Smelling the Early Christian World

"
Not really having any kind of dog in the fight - as what matters is the view of the Church on the matter....and not avoiding where certain views extented for all as dogmatic are really more so within the realm of opinion. This is why what was noted was also pointed out here for the sake of anyone reading the thread when it comes to the OO world.

A lot of people are not aware of where Bob Marley was converted by Abuna Yesehaq, nor are they aware fully of how he worked with others within Rastafarian culture in agreement with many others within the Ethiopian Orthodox Church. Of course, this may disagree with others in the Coptic Orthodox Church and that's fine - but there is still a lot of differences. Part of the struggle that comes up with that is due to where Ethiopians were called "Copts" at certain points due to where the Ethiopian Church was administratively part of the Coptic Orthodox Church until 1959, due to how the Coptic and Ethiopian Orthodox Churches reached an agreement on July 13, 1948, that led to autocephaly for the Church of Ethiopia and it being granted its own Patriarch by Coptic Orthodox Pope of Alexandria and Patriarch of All Africa, Cyril VI. Being Autocephalous changed a lot of things- and even though it is still historically given the name "Copt" in many circles, it is not the case that the Ethiopian Orthodox Church calls itself Copts still overall or identifies with all things said currently with Coptic Orthodox Church leaders - there have been differences and debates which have been well-documented. The Coptic Orthodox and the Ethiopian Coptic Orthodox are distinctly separate entities (sister Oriental churches and there are the Coptic Churches of Egypt, which are similar to the Ethiopian Churches, but not identical. ....for although the Ethiopian tradition stems out of the Coptic one IN many respects, they are really their own branch.

More can be found here in CNEWA - The Ethiopian Orthodox Tewahedo Church

And with the work of Archbishop (Abuna) Yesehaq Mandefro, commissioned by the EOTC , it was very much a big deal with the work he did on behalf of the Ethiopian Orthodox Church and His Imperial Majesty Emperor Haile Selassie I.

Studying up on Rastafarianism, it was amazing to see not only the differences---but just how much there's in common between Christians and the group...and hearing out those who used to be in it/where they come from was a blessing. Some Rastafari choose to classify their movement as Ethiopian Orthodox Christianity, Protestant Christianity, or Judaism..and of those, the ties to the Ethiopian Church are the most widespread, although this is controversial to many Ethiopian clergy. For discussions have raged for ages on those who're Rastafarian and Christian...as many had the Biblical Belief that Jesus was the Messiah...but many in the more "extreme" aspects of camp mistakenly held that Hali Salessi was Christ come back. I was amazed to learn that Haile Selassie, the King of Ethopia, was himself a devout believer in Christ......and one who was intimately connected with the Ethopian Orthodox Church. Whenever it came to others wondering why it was that people said was the Messiah, he'd always reply "I'm a mere man. I will be replaced by the oncoming generation and a human being should not be emulated for a deity.'"

Many who used to be Rastafarians worshipping Hali recognized that instead of worshipping him, they should've been worshipping who he was worshipping. And for the many who claim to be Rastafarians, and as I learned, the term "Rasta" can be used as a means of endearment since the name Rastafari is taken from Ras Tafari, the pre-regnal title of Haile Selassie I, composed of Amharic Ras (literally "Head," an Ethiopian title equivalent to Duke), and Haile Selassie's pre-regnal given name. Being called "Rasta" is many times a way of saying one's deeply spiritual/righteous like the Christian Emperor of Ethopia-----with the dominant focus simply being upon the lifestyle (i.e. maintaining locks/dreads as a spiritual symbolization like the Nazarite Vows, vegetarian lifestyles, Afrocentrism, Addressing the ways in which European Expansionism/Colonialsim and Imperialism has utilized Christianity as a means of continuning itself/suppressing others, Reggae, etc). .....as opposed to choosing to worship a man who's not Christ.

One of the best books on the subject is entitled Dread Jesus by William Spencer....


Dread Jesus

​

And for some more info on the book--as said best elsewhere:

"Dread Jesus": A New View of the Rastafari Movement

William David Spencer’s Dread Jesus (London: Society for Promoting Christian Knowledge, 1999) is, quite simply, one of the best books by a Christian theologian about a new religious movement. Although Spencer examines primarily different views of Jesus Christ within the Rastafari community, the book is also a comprehensive history of the movement, of its sources, and of the differences between its many contemporary branches. It is also a valuable introduction to reggae music and its connections with the Rastafari community. Spencer, as many Rastafari scholars before him, traces Rastafari back to the Ethiopianist movement and the Universal Negro Improvement Association (UNIA), established in 1914 in Jamaica by Marcus Mosiah Garvey (1887-1940). While Zionists preached the return of Jews to Palestine, Ethiopianists suggested that African Americans should eventually return to Africa (and particularly to the historical heart of Africa, Ethiopia). Spencer reconstructs Ethiopianism as a Christian movement, although an unorthodox one. While Garvey’s image of a "black Christ" was consciously symbolic, other Ethiopianist preachers such as Robert Athyli Rogers (from the Caribbean island of Anguilla), founder of the Afro Athlican Constructive Church, regarded the "black Jesus" as one among many divine incarnations (for Rogers, the most important incarnation of God was Elijah ).

Others, like Prophet Alexander Bedward in Jamaica, claimed to be the new messiah themselves. All this changed on November 2, 1930 when Ras Tafari was crowned as Emperor of Ethiopia as H.I.M. (His Imperial Majesty) Hailé Selassié I (1892-1975). World media covered the event, and most (although not all) Ethiopianists in Jamaica believed that this successor to the line of King Solomon, bearing titles such as "King of Kings" and "Lion of Judah", was indeed the Christ who was to return. Spencer insists on the role played on the foundation of Rastafari religion by three preachers: Leonard Howell, H. Archibald Dunkley, and Joseph Nathaniel Hibbert.

As far as Dunkley and Hibbert are concerned, he insists on their membership in the Great Ancient Brotherhood of Silence, or Ancient Mystic Order of Ethiopia, one of the "black" (or "Prince Hall") Masonic organizations. Spencer claims that a number of features of Rastafari religion derive from this branch of Freemasonry (including the name "Jah" for "God", coming from the Masonic form "Jah-Bul-On"). Later Rastafari leaders and authors, such as Dennis Forsythe, were in turn influenced, according to Spencer, by the Rosicrucian order AMORC. Rastafari is, thus, a syncretistic faith including elements from the Western esoteric and occult tradition, Christianity, and Jamaican and Caribbean lore (including the trademark Rastafari dreadlocks, and the use of ganja). Spencer also re-examines the well-known story of Selassié’s visit to Jamaica in 1966, his denial to be God or the return of Christ, and his attempt to lead Rastafarians into the Ethiopian Orthodox Church (with only moderate success). He also examines the peculiar role of reggae singer Bob Marley (1945-1981) in the development of Rastafarian thought (an extreme fringe even believes Marley, rather than Selassié, to be the messiah). The most important part of Spencer’s book deals with Rastafari reactions to the Marxist revolution in Ethiopia, and the following imprisonment and eventual death of Selassié in 1975. While, in the immediate aftermath of these events , Selassié’s death was explained away as yet another "big lie" by the world media, gradually most Rastafarians recognized that His Imperial Majesty will not physically reappear any time soon.

What happened, according to Spencer, was the separation of elements whose coexistence within the Rastafari community had always been difficult. While only a handful of Rastafarians followed Selassié’s counsel and joined the Ethiopian Orthodox Church, a significant number (whose main international organization is the Twelve Tribes of Israel) adopted a more explicitly Christian approach, recognizing Jesus Christ as the Son of God and Selassié as a mere human (if all-important) prophet. Their Christ remains a "black Christ" within the frame of contemporary black or Africanist theology. As a reaction, an anti-Christian movement, the "bun Christ" (or "burn Christ") movement, manifested itself, particularly at certain reggae events. Rastafari has always been anti-Catholic (because it accuses the Catholic Church of having supported Mussolini’s invasion of Ethiopia, seen as the ultimate sacrilege). Some contemporary Rastafarians are also anti-Christian, although many would qualify even the most extreme "burn Christ" statements by claiming that their quarrel is with the "white Christ" in whose name racist crimes have been perpetrated, not with a liberated "black Christ". There is little doubt, however, that one branch of Rastafari has followed the Eastern linings of one of the "founders", Leonard Howell, and has adopted a mystical view of Selassié’s soul as an entity quite independent from the Emperor’s physical manifestation. A portion of this divine spark or essence, eminently manifested in Selassié, is present in all Rastafari faithful, if not in all human beings, within the framework of a sort of gnostic pantheism true to the occult-esoteric connections of some of the "founders".

Rastafari, Spencer concludes, is at a crossroad, between Selassié as God (re-interpreted after the Emperor’s death in a pantheistic and gnostic sense) and "the God of Selassié", i.e. Jesus Christ. In the latter sense, Rastafari, or a branch of it, may eventually become a "Selassian" Christian Church, no less Christian for its veneration of Selassié as a prophet and a saint (just, Spencer notes, as there is a "Lutheran" Church, named after Martin Luther but certainly not claiming that he was the messiah). At any rate, Spencer takes seriously Rastafari as potential (and, at least in some cases, actual) "roots Christianity" of what he calls with the politically correct name of two-thirds world. While liberation theology has been too often a theoretical construct of Western intellectuals, movements such as Rastafari are a much more reliable indicator of the real feelings and spiritual needs of Caribbean and other two-thirds world spiritual seekers. In this perspective, Spencer’s book is a model of theological dialogue between traditional Christianity and a new, admittedly "bizarre", religious tradition. Similar enterprises should probably be attempted with respect to other new religious movements as well.



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Specifically, much of the Ethiopian churches in the U.S. are in a certain way schismatic in relation to the mainstream Oriental Orthodox churches since they recognize an exiled man who was deposed by the holy synod in Addis Ababa named Mekorios as the legitimate patriarch of the EOTC, whereas the church within Ethiopia recognizes Abune Paulos as the legitimate Patriarch, as do the rest of the Oriental Orthodox churches. Consequently, both of these groups have anathematized each other, so while the Ethiopian synod in Exile is one in faith with the OOC, it has not eccelsiastically been part of the OOC for a few decades now. It has caused a bit of an issue whenever Ethiopian Orthodox churches are set up in the U.S. - especially in the ATL area since so many of them are made and yet the civil war between them is great. And with regards to revolutions, it is fascinating to consider the ways that Marxism is what started off much of the problem. Specifically, a Marxist revolution in 1974 led to the overthrow of His Imperial Majesty Haile Selassie (who though an autocratic ruler of a feudal nation is remembered for modernizing Ethiopia as best as possible and leading the resistance against Italian invasion in 1935 as well as for his devout life/support of the Church ) - with the years following the coup being marked by severe persecution of Christians, church properties seized by the state, and as many as tens of thousands of Ethiopians killed during a period known as the Red Terror....

• UNDER MARXISM, ETHIOPIA'S CHRISTIANS ABIDE By JAMES BROOKE, Special to the New York Times
  Published: March 9, 1987

I respect what Abune Merkorios and his supporters did when a puppet patriarch was essentially chosen by the Ethiopian People's Revolutionary Democratic Front (EPRDF) and they went into exile, establishing a rival synod in the United States.

As said best elsewhere:

The Ethiopian Orthodoxy was the state religion of the country until the 1974 Marxist revolution, which overthrew the Emperor and placed Colonel Mengistu Haile Mariam at the head of government. The new government called the Derg disestablished the Ethiopian Orthodox Church as the state religion, and declared a doctrine of "Equality of Faith" but actively worked against all faiths by advocating communistic atheism. In 1977, the government arrested His Holiness Abune Tewophilos, Patriarch of Ethiopia and imprisoned him. They ordered a general assembly of the church to elect a new Patriarch. The assembly was directed to elect a monk named Abba Melaku as Patriarch of Ethiopia with the name Tekle Haimanot. The Coptic Orthodox Church of Egypt announced that the enthronement of a Patriarch while another Patriarch lived, without abdication on his part, or action by the Holy Synod of the Church to remove him was in violation of Canon Law, and refused to recognize Tekle Haimanot as Patriarch of Ethiopia. Ties between the two churches were completely severed. Later that year the communists brutally executed Abune Tewophilos, Patriarch of Ethiopia and buried him in secret.

When Tekla Haimanot died in 1988, the Archbishop of Gondar, Abune Merkorios who became Patriarch of Ethiopia, succeeded him. Then in 1991, the Derg government collapsed, and was replaced by a rebel movement, which assumed authority as a transitional government. Under much controversial actions, Abune Merkorios was removed from the Patriarchate by the Holy Synod. It is unclear whether or not the Patriarch willingly abdicated at first or acted under duress, but when he made an effort to reverse this action, the Synod stepped in and announced it had removed him. It stated that his election had been under the duress and direction of the Communist government, and so his continued occupation of the Patriarchate was not legitimate. A new election was held, and Abune Paulos, once a prisoner of the Derg, and a long time exile in the United States, became Patriarch of Ethiopia. Abune Merkorios then fled Ethiopia and announced from abroad that his removal was illegitimate, and carried out under duress from the new transitional government. He claimed that he was still the legal Patriarch of Ethiopia as canon law did not support the enthronement of a Patriarch while another lived. The Synod however replied that it was entitled under canon law to remove the patriarch that it had done prior to the election of the new Patriarch. Several bishops left Ethiopia to join him in exile and now live mostly in the United States where they proclaimed a parallel synod.

These moves to split the synod, the question of who the legitimate occupant of the Patriarchate should be, and other issues have aroused much argument among the clergy and faithful. Abune Paulos however is the patriarch recognized by the Holy Synod of the Ethiopian Orthodox Church inside Ethiopia. The body claiming to be The Holy Synod in Exile continues to uphold Abune Merkorios as Patriarch of Ethiopia. Efforts to avert a permanent schism of the church continue.

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[Wgw]

Don't know where the information came from about Rastas, but I grew up with Rastafarian culture in the West Indies - and been to Jamaica multiple times with Jamaican family/friends (and been called a Rasta several times here in the U.S and there). They did NOT enshrine weed as their main sacrament as fact nor do they abuse scripture if actually aware of what they have actually taught rather than going with the stereotype. Moreover, many of them are actually accepted in the Ethiopian Orthodox Church since there are differing variations. The Rastas who are a part of the Ethiopian Orthodox Church honor His Imperial Majesty Haile Selassie as the representative of Christ and honor His lifestyle in the same way Lutherans do the same with Luther, although those claiming His Imperial Majesty is God incarnate are obviously in sin and those are the ones who are troublesome. Most of the other Rastas are simply a Roots Christianity and akin to what one would see with Jewish Berbers who are Nomadic and people of the land.

Living among the actual people who get stereotyped a lot from a distance instead of interactions occurring with them on a personal level, it always seems surprising whenever people speak broadly of groups without any real context.

And the interactions for Rastas is very complex for Orthodox. More can be gleaned in Interview with Abuna Yesehaq About Bob Marley's Conversion - as the man established Orthodoxy in Jamaica and worked intimately with Rastafarians.

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Some of this has been tackled more in-depth elsewhere from an Orthodox perspective (including where Bob Marley was saved into the Ethiopian Orthodox Church):

Alas your position regarding the Ethiopian church is erroneous; whereas the Ehiopian church has to some extent sought to evangelize Rastas, as a religion they remain anathema; furthermore a senior Ethiopian bishop, if memory serves, the current Patriarch, has condemned marijuana use.

As an aside, the Ethiopian church is vehemently against Nestorius and Nestorians to the point where some Ethiopian monastics have criticized OO-EO reconciliation on the basis of the erroneous view that EOs are somehow crypto-Nestorian.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

Alas your position regarding the Ethiopian church is erroneous; whereas the Ehiopian church has to some extent sought to evangelize Rastas, as a religion they remain anathema; furthermore a senior Ethiopian bishop, if memory serves, the current Patriarch, has condemned marijuana use.
\]

Actually, respectfully, you are actually not in line with what has been said throughout Ethiopian Orthodox Church on the matter. Be it in the West Indies or globally since they have not said anything close. Abuna Yesehaq already discussed this regarding Bob Marley's Conversion and multiple others, as well as the patriarchs on the matter.

Abuna Yesehaq has been more than clear on the matter:

That cannot be ever avoided or changed, although there are plenty (in MANY parts of the Coptic Orthodox Church) unaware of the events and having little to not interaction with others in Rasta culture. This has been noted by several others within the Coptic Church and cannot be avoided if taking seriously Ethiopian Orthodoxy and Abuna Yesehaq who was placed in charge of addressing the movement.

As another from the Ethiopian Orthodox Church wisely noted on the issue:

Abuna Yesehaq possessed keen wisdom and Christian patience in his evangelistic efforts. His brilliance was evidenced by the fact that he wisely discerned what was necessary for salvation and what was not. And what is necessary for salvation is essentially a truly repentant heart, the worship of Jesus Christ, and the confession of the Nicene Creed. Abuna Yesehaq did not require Rastas to cut their locks. He did not demand that they stop using Ganja. He did not tell them that they had to forsake their vegetarian diet and begin eating meat. He did not tell them that their music was of the devil. He only preached the Orthodox Christian Faith to them, willingly and joyfully baptizing any and all who embraced Christ and His Church.

Certainly there were aspects of the Rastafarian lifestyle that were disturbing to Abuna Yesehaq. For example, he had difficulty with the Rastas' use of Ganja. But he was wise enough not to make marijuana use an issue that precluded Holy Baptism. Instead, he trusted the Holy Spirit to deal with such matters rather than presuming to play the role of the Holy Spirit himself.

It is also interesting to contemplate the title of Abuna Yesehaq's masterful book on the Church. The book is titled: The Ethiopian Tewahedo Church: An Integrally African Church. Notice that the subtitle does not read "A Primarily African Church," "A Supremely African Church," or "An Exclusively African Church." You see, Abuna Yesehaq recognized and valued the importance of cultural identity without elevating cultural identity to a prejudicial level. So, we must follow his sagacious example, neither elevating cultural identity to an exclusive level nor devaluing it with disparagement. For to do either one is to promote prejudice and racism.

Because of Abuna Yesehaq's wisdom, countless Rastafarians have renounced the idolatry of Selassie worship and have entered the Orthodox Church.

​

Wise words, IMHO, to keep in mind....and since what was deemed anathema was the aspects of Rastafarianism that were AGAINST the Church rather than all aspects of it, it would be good have more solid information on what being Rastafarian is actually about. There have been plenty of conversations in the Ethiopian Orthodox Church where others have said it was never a problem being deemed a "Rasta" if/when referring to others who honor Halie Selassie in his faith in Christ and mirror his lifestyle. But that has little to do with Rasfarianism that was condemned in the form of claiming that Halie Selassie was to be worshipped and a number of other things. Cannabis was an issue as well - but I do and will always respect the fact that ven Ethiopian Orthodox have noted how Bob Marley continued to smoke weed after his conversion and his Confessor Abune Yesehaq discussed this quite openly with regards to how His Grace continually mentored Bob towards moving away from this. In spite of this, to a certain degree, Abune Yesehaq respected Bob's cultural decision to use cannabis. In context, Bob Marley was baptized a few months before his passing, and he was painfully dying of high-stage, metastatic cancer. It was seen as being no better with his use of weed than the use of pharamecuticals.

Abuna Yesehaq already spoke in-depth on the matter in many interviews with work he did and that of other priests in regards to how having Rasfarianism (As Halie Selassie saw it alongside the Patriarchs) condemned was not the same as saying all aspects of it were ever wrong - or that they had issue with other Orthodox being called 'Rasta' if it was in regards to simply honoring His Imperial Majesty. Again, as it concerns His Holiness, many Rastas who are Christians trusting Christ simply admire the Emperor as a demonstration of how Christ walked the earth - no different than others respecting Martin Luther to the point where they emulate his lifestyle and call themselves Lutherans. They take after the Emperor's formal name and thus live out devotion to Christ on that basis - whereas others deify the man and do what the emperor warned against. And this is very key really wishing to understanding what being a Rasta is about. They don't condone a lifestyle using weed as a daily practice but they understand how big scents/smell are and that's why others turn to Ethiopian Orthodoxy.

There was never condemnation for all things Rasta and to say otherwise would be akin to claiming the Ethiopian Orthodox Church advocates the condemnation of Regaee Music made by Rastas when that has never been the case historically - and being called 'Rasta' as a short-hand term different from what others in parts of the religion believe would be akin to one being called a Communist during Soviet Russia. To call someone that would not mean automatically that you are assuming they support all aspects of Communism done in Russia supporting the Atheistic State or other bad actions since there were forms of Communism applied in the South that focused on community and Christians were the ones applying it. That is a big deal knowing the variations and which group one is talking to.

Moreover, several other leaders in the Ethiopian Orthodox Church have NEVER condemned marijuana and it'd matter little since it's a false claim saying all Rastas largely used the drug as some kind of sacrament. It's incense they focus on - but if never having any real interaction with Rastas, it's ignorant to claim what they speak on. Of course, I will always encourage any Rastas I know who do not know Jesus Christ to turn to Him and become Orthodox - as there are many beautiful stories of Rastas coming to faith in Jesus and I am always blessed on hearing of how there's Another Rastafarian who Becomes Orthodox

But just as many Patriarchs have noted how many Muslims are brothers serving God (even though incomplete in their faith) and God works with them (in the same way St. John of Damascus noted of them), it has been seen the same way with Rastafarianism in many respects in the West Indies.

As an aside, the Ethiopian church is vehemently against Nestorius and Nestorians to the point where some Ethiopian monastics have criticized OO-EO reconciliation on the basis of the erroneous view that EOs are somehow crypto-Nestorian.

As said earlier in Tuesday at 3:45 PM#39, it does not deal with history avoiding where plenty within the Ethiopian Church have noted PLAINLY they are against NESTORIANISM but understand where Nestrorius never advocated that. Even Nestorius agreed to certain condemnations when it came to reactions to what he said - and the Assyrian Church of the East has pointed out the same reality. Places such as "East Meets East" go into good depth sharing on the subject and how history has played out. But from the School in Edessa (known for its scholarship around the world and greatly contributing to the Church) to the witnessing among the Mongols, there are many Ethiopian Churches honoring their work for going where other dared not to go. People in the Church are already aware of the extensive range of discussions within OO - and I've been involved in the camp for years seeing that play out, long before meeting His Holiness/the Pope (as shared before already) and seeing the discussions first hand.

I know what my Church talks on so I do not feel there's any need speaking (as it seems to me, from my side) with others who are not aware on either Nestorius or the responses - I will go with the Priests and Bishops in what they have often said directly on the matter. There are plenty of monks/monastics in the Ethiopian world who have had zero issue with OO-EO reconcilliation or dialogue and it's why others (including Bishop Angelos in the UK) have had no issue doing so with EO or other groups. The Bishops have already had multiple Statements of Agreements made between EO and OO and it is them I will follow above what happens on lower levels alone with the Monastics....even though many of the Monastics have spoken on the issue with shared Saints and having no issue with reconcilliation and ignoring the erroneous view that all things Nestorius were wrong since he was in agreement with Theodore and many things others are realizing were largely lost in translation due to geography/communication with language of expression.

This is a common issue that is not new NOR something to lose sight of when dealing with the differing camps within the Church.

But ultimately, as said before, that can be discussed elsewhere since there are Debate forums for that in places like St. Justins

 

[Gxg (G²)]

I meant in their approach. both were founded by one guy who went off alone, had some revelation, and said that ancient Christianity perverted itself and that last Prophet came to correct the falsehoods.

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Of course, as I am aware of that dynamic and in that they are similar - just as it is for nearly every Restorationist group in the past two centuries.

yeah, but they went very far down that heresy hole. they are definitely tapping into the same occult stuff as Mormons and every other pagan group.

That would again depend on which Muslim you end up talking to. There are many 'Islams' just as there are differing 'Christianities' and this is something that often gets avoided outright with trying to stereotype them all. Having a grandmother who grew up in a sect of Islam herself (after leaving Catholicism in the West Indies) and witnessing to her a lot before she came to trust in Christ and convert, it is a big deal seeing it in action. Things get REALLY multi-layered, especially the more that history goes down the line.

Others may disagree, but I think the simpler issue to keep in mind is that there is no uniform Muslim and that's part of the battle, in light of Muslims who believe Jesus is God (alongside noting the Triune yet Unified nature of the Lord) and did so from the text of the Qu'ran alone....and thus making it the case that people claiming universally "Muslims don't believe Jesus is God" do not really deal with what Muslims have said which disagrees with them. There's a HUGE dynamic at present in many places where people have not learned to overcome fear of Muslims and deal with what they have actually said - and with MBB (Muslim Background Believers around the world), their testimonies are a big deal for what they experience believing in Jesus globally while witnessing to other Muslims).

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And some of this has been discussed more in-depth elsewhere, as seen here:

We can start with St. John of Damascus, Griffith, S.H, Abdul Saleeb, Tafsir Ibn 'Abbas, Brother Andrew & Al Janssen / Revell , Abd al-Masih, Paul-Gordan Chandler, Farhan Qureshi

We can also address Abdullah Saeed (as it concerns comparing the modern trend of Muslim followers of Isa to the first-century Jews who also put their trust in the Messiah) from “The Charge of Distortion of Jewish and Christian Scriptures.” (The Muslim World, vol. 92:3-4 Fall, 419-436)...or *Arberry A.J. of The Koran Interpreted – A Translation. New York: Touchstone –....as well as Fouad Elias Accad of Building Bridges – Christianity and Islam.

“First-Century Jews and Twentieth-Century Muslims.” (International Journal of Frontier Missions, vol. 17:1 Spring, 33-39)...as well as Keith E. Swartley (of the book "Building Bridges").....and, of course,
Kenneth Cragg of "Jesus & the Muslim—An Exploration" ( investigation of the relationship between Islam and Christianity as seen through the examples of the life of Syrian novelist Mazhar Mallouhi, a self-described “Sufi Muslim follower of Christ.” )....and Nabeel Qureshi (who has worked with other scholars such as Ravi Zacharias and others who grew up in the Muslim world in the Orthodox camps of Islam) - and "The Moslem Christ – An Essay on the Life, Character, and Teachings of Jesus Christ According to the Koran and Orthodox Traditions" by Samuel M. Zwemer (made in 1912)

At the end of the day, we have to always keep God's Mercy in mind when it comes to how He interacts with others.

As it is, the claim that Muslims do not believe in the Divinity of Christ always seems to come up from many and it's something that I think shows GREAT ignorance of what is actually said in Islam.

In regards to the diversity of Muslims as it concerns worship/who is the focus, I think it's worth noting how there are and have always been many Muslims/Muslim camps that have actually advocated this concept when it comes to seeing what is stated directly within the Quran with the Divinity of Christ and others who worship Him - some of this discussed more in the thread entitled Trinitarian Monotheism?

There's actually one camp of Muslims that many are not aware of called the Isawa Isa al-Masih (ee-sah ahl-mah-seeh) – Jesus the Messiah. ... (disciples of Isa) – a sect of Islam in northern Nigeria which exalts Jesus (Isa)...also called the Hausa Muslims - more discussed on them by scholar Mallam Ibrahim in the Encyclopedia of Islamic Civilization and Religion (by Ian Richard Netton ) and My Neighbour's Faith: Islam Explained for African Christians . And other camps similar to them..

Concerning the many complex dynamics with Islam (which hit home for me since I had family who grew up within Islamic sects and whom I've witnessed to a lot in helping them see Christ), there was actually an excellent article on the issue here which broke down the matter when it comes to some of the fear-based responses people have been giving a lot....

• De-mystifying ISIS and radical Islam - Anglican link

As one of my friends (who's Eastern Orthodox) reminded me on, it's essential to admit one must have a better sense of context before thinking one can interpret the text. There are different sects of Islam, just as there are of Christianity (or any other belief) and adherence to the particular understanding of these groups can alter the way the text is understood and how one acts. And for an excellent chart on the matter that breaks down a lot...

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It's truly an on point chart when it comes to showing just how diverse the Islamic world is. And on the issue, the chart doesn't even take into account the Ahmadiyya Muslim Community (which is a dynamic, fast growing international revival movement within Islam) or the camp involving Muslim Open Theists or several other camps within Islam itself not noted...including with regards to Baha’i which arose out of the Islamic worldview/camp and is considered in several places in the Muslim world to be a sect (even though this has been debated by others seeing where it has evolved into) - for as another noted:

Shi`ism as a background for the Baha'i Faith. The Baha'i Faith was born into a Shi`i environment in Iran and almost all of the early converts were from Shi`i Islam. Thus, in the same way that a number of Jewish institutions were grown up within Christianity, some of the institutions of Shi`ism were carried forward into the Baha'i Faith. Some of the teachings of the Baha'i Faith are also to be found in embryonic form in Shi`i Islam."......and "The origins of the Bahá'í religion are firmly rooted in Islam.... Bahá'ís mark the beginning of their history with the declaration of the Báb in Shiraz, Iran, on May 22, 1844.... Sayyid 'Alí-Muhammad, who later took the title of the Báb (meaning Gate), claimed to be the return of the long-awaited Qa'im, the Imám Mihdí, the Hidden Imam whose return in the flesh had been awaited for a thousand years by pious Shí'ís....The Bábí movement quickly gained a following among the scholars of the Shaykhí school within the ulema, and eventually a wider following among ordinary Muslims in Shí'í Iran. ...but the followers of the Báb were declared heretics by the orthodox Muslim clergy, persecuted and scattered.... The Báb himself was imprisoned and eventually executed in 1850"...."...."​

But I digress. The point in noting all of that is showing the fact that not all Muslims have ever seen issues universally the same and part of being honorable on the part of Christians is for us to be able to speak accurately on the issue rather than throwing wholesale condemnation on people simply for saying they associate with Muslims. This is no different than Christians saying they'd appreciate it if others would not be quick to claim that Christianity is "the White man's religion" simply because of what other Christians did in the name of it while promoting White Supremacy /using scripture improperly to do it....


And again, Christians are just as diverse as the Muslims...

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Some of this has been discussed more in-depth elsewhere, as said here:

As it is, Church history is already intricate enough - and very complicated when seeing how much things have developed and evolved.

Consistency of the early church/trusting what they had developed does not mean one dismisses all that had developed since then when it comes to the extent that God's Body. As I understand it, the Church is like like a tree - WHERE the original root is Christ and there is the Church flowing from that. There at the base of the tree is where things are closest to the original - and thus, it's logical with proximity alone/practice for me to note the necessity of listening to the practices of Eastern Christianity/Apostolic Christianity since that is the closest to what the Apostles/1st century Church did - but there are other things that flowed since that time frame which have also been of the Lord......and the Lord operating.

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As it is, Church history is already intricate enough - and very complicated when seeing how much things have developed and evolved.

Consistency of the early church/trusting what they had developed does not mean one dismisses all that had developed since then when it comes to the extent that God's Body. As I understand it, the Church is like like a tree - WHERE the original root is Christ and there is the Church flowing from that. There at the base of the tree is where things are closest to the original - and thus, it's logical with proximity alone/practice for me to note the necessity of listening to the practices of Eastern Christianity/Apostolic Christianity since that is the closest to what the Apostles/1st century Church did - but there are other things that flowed since that time frame which have also been of the Lord......and the Lord operating.

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Came across this excellent map on the issue of world religions. It is in the form of a tree that shows the intersections of nearly every major religion in the world/their respective off-shoots. With the tree, the roots of the tree are automatically going to far back into time - the farthest we can go being based on how much we're aware of - many speculating that world religions really started to begin in the era of Noah after the Flood and the Tower of Babel (from which Nimrod arose to change the shape of the world after establishing Babylon alongside the worship of Ishtar and others - with his system of worship impacting the worship given before the Lord even into the time of Abraham).

Of course, we'll only be able to see once we're in heaven the full scope of history. Till then, we can know for certain that religions have always intersected - and for myself, being a believer in God/Christ, my view is that those following the Lord are impacted at every turn when it comes to the history of God's people....

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In addition to that, for anyone from a theistic perspective wanting to have a basis for knowing how and where things may have merged, it's interesting examining the Abrahamic faith (beginning in Genesis 12 and Genesis 11 - continued from Genesis 4 from the era where men around the world simply called on the name of the Lord universally - global consciousness of Theism and belief in One God as the way) t....that is the root of many of the world religions and what sprung from them in their own spheres.

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wow that is amazing

Again, just some thoughts....

no one is disputing these points

That is the point others are focused on and responding to, seeing the point was made that Cornelius (not a Christian) was noted by God to have connection with the Lord through his DEVOUT lifestyle and God giving him further revelation, just as Muslims have and God revealing Himself to them via dreams/visions and helping them find Christ fully since full revelation cannot be found within Islamic Systems alone.

yeah, and it would be awesome if Christianity were merely this affirmation. but it's not.

No one said Christianity was merely that affirmation - but not one person declares Jesus is God except by the Holy Spirit (I Corinthians 12):

I Corinthians 12:3
3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.
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And for Muslims actively living in seeking Christ/glorifying Him by declaring Him as the only way to Salvation, that is not something God ever overlooks OR minimizes.

no one disputes this.

That again, however, goes back to what others were already saying which was responded to - the extensive love of God that He has. St. Issac's words always come to mind when it comes to the way God sees Muslims. As St Isaac of Nineveh noted:

Paradise is the love of God, wherein is the enjoyment of all blessedness, and there the blessed Paul partook of supernatural nourishment. When he tasted there of the tree of life, he cried out, saying “Eye hath not see, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love Him.” Adam was barred from this tree through the devil’s counsel.





The tree of life is the love of God from which Adam fell away, and thereafter he saw joy no longer, and he toiled and labored in the land of thorns. Even though they make their way in righteousness, those who are bereft of the love of God eat in their work the bread of sweat, which the first-created man was commanded to eat after his fall. … But when we find love, we partake of heavenly bread, and are made strong without labor and toil. The heavenly bread is Christ, Who came down from Heaven and gave life to the world. This is the nourishment of the angels. The man who has found love eats and drinks Christ every day and hour and hereby is made immortal. “He that eateth of this bread,” He says, “which I will give him, shall not see death unto eternity.” Blessed is he who eats the bread of love, which is Jesus! He who eats of love eats Christ, the God over all, as John bears witness, saying, “God is love.”





Wherefore, the man who lives in love reaps life from God, and while yet in this world, he even now breathes the air of the resurrection; in this air the righteous will delight in the resurrection. Love is the Kingdom, whereof the Lord mystically promised His disciples to eat in His Kingdom. For when we hear Him say, “Ye shall eat and drink at the table of my Kingdom,” what do we suppose we shall eat, if not love? Love is sufficient to nourish a man instead of food and drink. (Ascetical Homilies I.46, pp. 357-358)

​

That I always consider when seeing I John 3-4 on the nature of God as Love...the simplicity of what Christ noted with the Good Samaritan in Luke 10:25-39 when it came to fulfilling the two great commandments through walking in mercy/justice and the ways that He even noted in Matthew 25 that others would be surprised in encountering the Lord because they had no idea that their acts of love (visiting the homeless, taking care of the poor, going to prisons, etc.) were impacting God and yet they were done with him seeing it. The same as it was for Cornelius in Acts 10 and later with others (as St. Paul notes in Romans 1-2 on how those without law become a law to themselves and will be judged based on what they know - consistent with what St. Paul noted in Romans 3:20-25 when speaking on how Christ overlooked ignorance due to others not knowing and the same in Acts 17 when speaking to others in Athens about the Unknown God/working from there in acknowledging they were seeking. Muslims are a part of that same process and that is why connection with God that they do have is highly important. As another articulated wisely:

Isaac’s reflections on the divine love are scattered throughout his discourses–the First Partand the Second Part. I cannot point to a single homily or two in which Isaac expounds on the love of God at great length (though Homily 38 in the Second Part is a good place to begin). Fortunately Alfeyev has written a fine introduction to Isaac’s mystical thought, The Spiritual World of Isaac the Syrian, and it is readily available from Orthodox bookstores and internet booksellers. Every preacher should read and inwardly digest this book. I wish I had been acquainted with the discourses of St Isaac during my years of active ministry. Perhaps I would have been a better preacher. I know I would have been a better disciple of Jesus Christ.

For Isaac the world is a gift of the divine love. It begins in love and will be consummated in love. This love is unconquerable and irresistible, not because it coerces—God forbid!—but because of its intrinsic beauty, truth, and goodness:

What profundity of richness, what mind and exalted wisdom is God’s! What compassionate kindness and abundant goodness belongs to the Creator! With what purpose and with what love did He create this world and bring it into existence! What a mystery does the coming into being of this creation look towards! To what a state is our common nature invited! What love served to initiate the creation of the world! This same love which initiated the act of creation prepared beforehand by another dispensation the things appropriate to adorn the world’s majesty which sprung forth as a result of the might of His love.



In love did He bring the world into existence; in love does He guide it during this its temporal existence; in love is He going to bring it to that wondrous transformed state, and in love will the world be swallowed up in the great mystery of Him who has performed all these things; in love will the whole course of the governance of creation be finally comprised. And since in the New World the Creator’s love rules over all rational nature, the wonder at His mysteries that will be revealed then will captivate to itself the intellect of all rational beings whom He has created so that they might have delight in Him, whether they be evil or whether they be just. (II.38.1-2)
​

What a magnificent passage. God has created the world in love and for love. Angels and human beings alike have been brought into existence to delight in the divine mercy and to enjoy eternal communion with the God who is love. Everything that God has done, everything that he does in the present and will do in the future is an expression of love. “Among all his actions,” Isaac proclaims, “there is none which is not entirely a matter of mercy, love, and compassion: this constitutes the beginning and the end of his dealings with us” (II. 39.22).​

aside from the Macedonian Church being schismatic and not in the Body of Christ, so it does not matter what Muslims do there.

Wouldn't matter seeing how trying to dismiss Muslims there would still ignore Muslims around the world in other parts of Orthodoxy - and what the Patriarchs have said on the matter.

But in regards to Macedonia, others have noted the issue to really be Nationalism gone mad as opposed to theological since the schismatic claims are largely a relic of an older era. Same dynamics happened with the Ethiopian Orthodox Church during the Marxist Rebellion that go Halie Selassie killed and many other Christians harmed for decades - but ended up having one Patriarch chosen by the government after the previous one was exiled for not supporting the government and it led to schism with two competing leaders. The same happened with ROCOR after Communist Russia and led to Orthodoxy spreading in the U.S...and after that, the events with the Ukraine nation and Russian nation fighting (as discussed in May Russian Orthodox church split due to Crimea? (moved from main TAW forum) ).

As another wisely noted:

Nationalism.

From what I understand, the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia was part of the Serbian Orthodox Church during the days of Yugoslavia. After the breakup of Yugoslavia those in FYROM wanted their own Church and weren't patient enough to let the Orthodox world "catch up" to current events. Out of purely nationalistic reasons they became schismatic from the rest of the Orthodox Church. Also, out of nationalism (and chauvinism) they persecute the canonical Orthodox Church within FYROM; which is currently part of the Serbian Church.

Basically another instance of "don't jump the gun".

In all honesty, speaking as one who is a bit ignorant of the culture of both peoples, I don't see why there shouldn't be a Kiev Patriarch for Ukraine.

However, the problem that we face today is that the "Ukrainian Orthodox Church - Kiev Patriarchate" is basically founded by a group of nationalists who jumped the gun and couldn't wait for the air to settle after Communism fell. I sometimes wonder if the schismatics had simply waited a bit, couldn't they have been an autocephalous body of Orthodoxy today?

​

The political situation is very tense, as another pointed out:

Macedonians and Montenegrins, traditionally part of the Serbian Orthodox Church, are increasingly asserting their distinct identities against Serbian hegemony. The Macedonian Orthodox Church unilaterally declared its autocephaly in 1967, an uncanonical procedure in Orthodox tradition. Nevertheless, it had the support of Yugoslavia's Communist leader, Josef Tito, who wished to buttress Macedonian cultural consciousness against Greek and Bulgarian ethnic and territorial claims to Macedonia. This church has never been recognized by other Orthodox churches. Eventually, in July 1995, the Serbian Orthodox Church declared the Macedonian Orthodox Church schismatic, though in 1996 Serbia did concede political recognition to Macedonia. Because the Macedonian government and church enjoy cordial relations with the Vatican, Serbian Orthodox accuse Macedonian Orthodox of having sold out to Catholicism. The Serbian Orthodox Church also refuses recognition of the tiny Montenegrin Orthodox Church, created in 1993.​

The Bulgarian Church welcomed the Macedonian Orthodox Church being independent when seeing the politics repressing ethnic identity but the Serbians hated it. ...more shared in The Russian Orthodox Church, 1917-1948

A political battle with Nationalism is not the same as identity in terms of Orthodox Ethos. As another Orthodox lady noted wisely:

It seems like this whole situation is political as both the Serbian and Macedonian governments are involved in a tug of war. From the Macedonian Orthodox website: http://www.mpc.org.mk/english/MPC/brief-history.asp

) With the Niš draft agreement of the year 2002 between the Macedonian and the Serbian Churches, all the disputable canonical and liturgical mutual problems of the two Churches were satisfactorily resolved. The only disputable problem for the Serbian Orthodox Church remained the name of our holy Church and its status. Our Church due to pastoral reasons insisted on the name ‘Macedonian Orthodox Church' and on an independent status, whereas the Serbian Orthodox Church, out of political reasons (it does not recognise the existence of the Macedonian nation), insisted on the name Ohrid Archdiocese and on an autonomous status. All theological and historical facts suggest that the problem of the name of our Church does not have an ecclesiastical, but purely political foundation; whereas the term which is to formulate its organisational status, i.e. ‘autonomy' or ‘independence', does not have an essential but merely formal meaning, since the essence of the status itself was defined with the content of the Niš draft agreement. Following the rejection of this working document as well, and this mainly because of the disagreement around the name, and after the Serbian Orthodox Church had realised that it would not manage to change our name, it stopped unilaterally the talks with the Macedonian Orthodox Church and has ever since been trying to organise a parallel church in the Republic of Macedonia through the support it has been giving to the deposed by our Church former Metropolitan of Povardarie. We are grateful to God that until now every attempt of the Serbian Orthodox Church to divide our Orthodox people and form a parallel church has remained unsuccessful. Owing to the wrong pastoral approach, the Serbian Orthodox Church has never been given and will never be given the liturgical “amen” of the Orthodox people in the Republic of Macedonia, without which none of its decisions are valid and it can do nothing in our area.​

Since the Macedonian Orthodox Church under Met. Stefan, which is favored by the Macedonian government, has declared on its website that it has had concelebrations with other World Orthodox jurisdictions, this shows that the Macedonian Orthodox Church under Met. Stefan is part of World Orthodoxy and not part of True Orthodoxy.

​

no one disputes this either....

That was, however, the main issue. No one is to dismiss Cornelius the Centurion as having connection with God while being incomplete as the Scriptures declare - and likewise, it's the same with Muslims when claiming they have no connection in God when that's against the Biblical Model and the actions of Muslims doing exactly as Cornelius (specifically for those Muslims growing up in communities where they do not understand who Christ is fully).

 

[Gxg (G²)]

A lot seems to be based perhaps on the kind of encounter one has...

In fact, the senior Coptic bishop praised Muslims in Al-Khosous attempting to protect Christians during a recent bout of sectarian violence that left five people dead - stating “The loving Muslims who protected Christians and the church during the deadly clashes in Al-Khosous highlighted the mistakes of the fanatics and showed the true meaning of religion and love....Our only consolation is that the victims gave their lives as a testimony to God and their pure souls ascended to heaven…" (more here for reference)

• Bishop Moussa meets with US Congressional delegation

Bishop Moussa has done extensive work with regards to being the Bishop of Youth and organizing many conferences in which prominent Egyptian politicians and intellectuals give lectures to aid Coptic youths to increase their participation in national events and he also has coordinated with the Arab Christian-Islamic Group of Dialogue in organizing a conference "discussing the impact of the September 11 attacks on national unity [between Muslims and Christians] as well as discussing how to create a proper climate where Muslim and Christian youths can work together.

Bishop Angelos has also spoken on the issue in regards to Egypt with the Christians and Muslims:

In my personal experience, with what I have experienced with the actual church I have attended before in the ETOC (as noted inDec 5, 2015#4
), I have witnessed first hand where Ethiopian Christians took a public stand noting how they have the Gospel and yet seek solidarity with Muslims in encouraging them and acknowledging how (although incomplete) Muslims are connected in some ways to God and a part of humanity. It is a big deal being blessed to go to the Ethiopian Orthodox Church I went to - and Ethiopian Orthodox Christians and Ethiopian Muslims have done this for sometime:

Do Muslims worship God? Or do they worship a man made God?

Need citations and sources.

The RCC says they are the same God, but I'm of the opposite opinion.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

Alas, this is the third post on this page that starts with alas....LOL

Battle of the Orientals in an Orthodox forum complete with 47 videos and 31 links!

 

[Gxg (G²)]

yes, He is the Prophet like unto Moses that Moses predicted

Thankful for Christ meeting others in dreams/visions in order to show them He is the Prophet they have been looking for. God is getting the Gospel out to people regardless...

 

[dzheremi]

I feel like I've missed something or a lot of somethings in this thread. What does all that stuff about Bektashis praying with Christian saints have to do anything? You find the same thing basically everywhere Christians and Muslims have lived together long enough, like in Palestine with St. George/Al Khidr, or at various shrines Lebanon. Even in Egypt, Muslims will sometimes visit the monasteries, or call upon a priest for house blessings and such (since Islam doesn't really do that kind of thing, so sometimes after someone has died at home, the family will call a priest to spiritually clean the home). That doesn't say anything about Islam and God.

Probably the nicest way to put it is that some individual Muslims might worship God, but to do so they must be worshiping outside of the bounds of Islamic 'orthodoxy'. This is no credit to Islam, of course, as there's nothing to be said for a religion whose central tenets require followers to deny the Holy Trinity and the divinity of Christ, in addition to the many other blasphemies, profanations, and recensions of God that Islam has codified. I understand why the OP in particular would ask this, since his church has taken a really rather foolish and historically deaf stance on this particular religion (for...some...reason...), but outside of those loyal to the Vatican I'm always kind of mystified when this topic comes up.

Then again, Coptic people being as they are (or at least the Coptic people I know), the debate that most often comes up among my friends from church is "Do Muslims worship Satan?", not "Do Muslims worship God?" But then I suppose we're extremists about certain things...

 

[Wgw]

Alas, this is the third post on this page that starts with alas....LOL

Battle of the Orientals in an Orthodox forum complete with 47 videos and 31 links!

Of which precisely zero were posted by myself.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

Of which precisely zero were posted by myself.

Except Debate Thread reference, mentioning "Alas" and the fact of OO war/spirited convo for St. John of Damascus being intensely discussed with EOs like Kristos on Islam on Islam being a form of corrupted Christology (in the same way some references note on St. John and other Patriarchs/Bishops in the Church).

No one's innocent

 

[Gxg (G²)]

I feel like I've missed something or a lot of somethings in this thread. What does all that stuff about Bektashis praying with Christian saints have to do anything? You find the same thing basically everywhere Christians and Muslims have lived together long enough, like in Palestine with St. George/Al Khidr, or at various shrines Lebanon. Even in Egypt, Muslims will sometimes visit the monasteries, or call upon a priest for house blessings and such (since Islam doesn't really do that kind of thing, so sometimes after someone has died at home, the family will call a priest to spiritually clean the home). That doesn't say anything about Islam and God.

Probably the nicest way to put it is that some individual Muslims might worship God, but to do so they must be worshiping outside of the bounds of Islamic 'orthodoxy'. This is no credit to Islam, of course, as there's nothing to be said for a religion whose central tenets require followers to deny the Holy Trinity and the divinity of Christ, in addition to the many other blasphemies, profanations, and recensions of God that Islam has codified. I understand why the OP in particular would ask this, since his church has taken a really rather foolish and historically deaf stance on this particular religion (for...some...reason...), but outside of those loyal to the Vatican I'm always kind of mystified when this topic comes up.



Then again, Coptic people being as they are (or at least the Coptic people I know), the debate that most often comes up among my friends from church is "Do Muslims worship Satan?", not "Do Muslims worship God?" But then I suppose we're extremists about certain things...

A lot of people don't know about the shrines both Orthodox and Muslims mutually visit, be it in Lebanon or Syria and other places. The same goes for Orthodox visiting Muslim homes and blessing or praying for Muslims just as the Muslims look out for the Christians with hospitality/gifts and food among other things. Of course, both sides do things out of their religious basis and plenty of conversations show them referencing their own texts to make their cases so that would not avoid Islam and God at at all. Those who do things within the bounds of 'orthodoxy' in Islam end up in trouble when actually showing what the Qu'ran actually says and dealing with the media presentations that always ignore the Immans going against other Immans on the basis of text.

It's really no different than what occurred in throughout the U.S when it was assumed to be 'orthodox' Christianity to say blacks were meant to be enslaved, Jim Crow/THE KKK were approved of and Manifest Destiny was justified because of what God said about the U.S. Anyone else disagreeing with that was deemed a heretic in the extreme, even though they were the furthest from their own text being applied properly - and it's the same with Muslims (including Sufis) who are persecuted by other Muslims even though their camp was a dominant camp at one point before another rose up due to circumstances. Happens all the time. A large majority of Muslims being told to deny the Trinity doesn't mean they are 'orthodox' in the slightest as it concerns being unable to deal with how their own text/previous camps affirmed the Trinity and were condemning pagan versions of the Trinity that made Mary a part of it (just as Orthodox Christians have condemned) - nor does it mean a lot when Muslims in large majorities have noted plainly that their own text does not deny the Divinity of Christ and actually affirms it above Muhammad. Of course, for the many other things in regards to stories from other Christians included in the Qu'ran that were never accepted in the Early Church due to the gnostic origins (i.e. Jesus turning pigeons from clay into real animals), it is not a surprise. It's really an in-house debate for Muslims and all on the outside trying to say what's going on inside - even though it's odd for the majority of others saying things from the outside when they never grew up Muslim and understand how other Muslims see the text.

Of course, for the OOs/EOs on my side, the debate always comes down to "How are you praying for Muslims to see Jesus?" since he really couldn't care less when he's going to them in dreams/visions to get the point across to them He wants them to know and Love Him.....I'd rather be an extremist on the love of God than debating why others don't know Him when that was not the focus of Christ

 

[Wgw]

.

 

[dzheremi]

A lot of people don't know about the shrines both Orthodox and Muslims mutually visit, be it in Lebanon or Syria and other places. The same goes for Orthodox visiting Muslim homes and blessing or praying for Muslims just as the Muslims look out for the Christians with hospitality/gifts and food among other things.

Hmm. I don't see how these are even remotely the same or even directly comparable, but okay.

Of course, both sides do things out of their religious basis and plenty of conversations show them referencing their own texts to make their cases so that would not avoid Islam and God at at all. Those who do things within the bounds of 'orthodoxy' in Islam end up in trouble when actually showing what the Qu'ran actually says and dealing with the media presentations that always ignore the Immans going against other Immans on the basis of text.

Um...what? I'm not really sure what you're trying to say here. "Immans"? What's that? Do you mean Imams (prayer leaders at Sunni mosques), or are you trying to pluralize the Arabic word iman (faith) as though it were an English word?

It's really no different than what occurred in throughout the U.S when it was assumed to be 'orthodox' Christianity to say blacks were meant to be enslaved, Jim Crow/THE KKK were approved of and Manifest Destiny was justified because of what God said about the U.S.

It's not?

Anyone else disagreeing with that was deemed a heretic in the extreme, even though they were the furthest from their own text being applied properly - and it's the same with Muslims (including Sufis) who are persecuted by other Muslims even though their camp was a dominant camp at one point before another rose up due to circumstances. Happens all the time.

I see.

A large majority of Muslims being told to deny the Trinity doesn't mean they are 'orthodox' in the slightest as it concerns being unable to deal with how their own text/previous camps affirmed the Trinity and were condemning pagan versions of the Trinity that made Mary a part of it (just as Orthodox Christians have condemned)

Ahhh...I see where you're coming from.

But yeah. Yeah it does. This whole "the Qur'an doesn't condemn Trinitarianism, just a confused version that makes Mary a member of it" is modern hooey, fed to gullible Christians in order to entice us to leave our religion for theirs. Don't fall for it, or at least don't spread it here.

nor does it mean a lot when Muslims in large majorities have noted plainly that their own text does not deny the Divinity of Christ

Hahaha...uh...

(I know it's big...that's how much I'm not believing you.)

...and actually affirms it above Muhammad.

What does that even mean? It "affirms" Jesus's divinity above Muhammad in what way? Muhammad isn't considered divine in the first place, so that makes no sense. What do you mean?

Of course, for the many other things in regards to stories from other Christians included in the Qu'ran that were never accepted in the Early Church due to the gnostic origins (i.e. Jesus turning pigeons from clay into real animals), it is not a surprise. It's really an in-house debate for Muslims and all on the outside trying to say what's going on inside - even though it's odd for the majority of others saying things from the outside when they never grew up Muslim and understand how other Muslims see the text.

People on the outside...like you? Or do you mean every other non-Muslim besides you?

Of course, for the OOs/EOs on my side, the debate always comes down to "How are you praying for Muslims to see Jesus?" since he really couldn't care less when he's going to them in dreams/visions to get the point across to them He wants them to know and Love Him.....I'd rather be an extremist on the love of God than debating why others don't know Him when that was not the focus of Christ

Yeah, yeah...your way is better than everyone else's. Got any more humble bragging to do before returning to the actual topic?

I don't see why anyone should believe what you say, particularly in light of your characterizing other poster's replies (not only EO, but even other OO) as "waging war on Islam" (astaghfirullah/God forgive me!) for the horrible, horrible thought crime of (gasp!) saying that we do not worship the same God as the Christ-deniers who follow Muhammad's religion.

Because we don't.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

Note that I have opted to request the MSC change my faith group to EO for two reasons: firstly, owing to my distance from an OO parish I last confessed and communed and will next commune at an EO parish (EP), whic technically makes me EO, and secondly, I believe in the idea of ecumenical reconciliation on a pan-Orthodox level, but I believe that it is impossible to represent the Orthodox position properly from an OO perspective on this forum when an OO member who happens to be a CF Ambassador argues, off topic to a thread about Islam,
that Nestorianism and Rastafarianism being the same as Islam

One, if you have an issue, it's not really wise to address posters on an open forum. I am not certain eeing that you alone brought up (off topic) Nestorianism was defended when that was already condemned, it'd be untrue since that would be false accusations without evidence when others have already said otherwise. This also goes directly that this was brought up by yourself randomly when no one was remotely defending it as seen in Tuesday at 3:32 PM#38:

This was reported by no less a man than St. John of Damascus. And other accounts suggest that Mohammed did meet with a Nestorian monk. It eould be fairly easy to degenerate from Nestorianism into non-Trinitarianism for the uninitiated given the week coupling of the two qname of the Lord in Nestorian Christology, particularly if the monk was not particularly competent in theological exposition.

Islam is actually as close to Orthodoxy, closer even, than some of the more extreme Gnostic heresies, which rejected the OT and had alternative NTs. Islamic accounts of the passion of our Lord, or rather, in their view, the lack thereof, resemble to a degree thr account found, if memory serves, in the Gospel of Philip.

You alone were the one to bring up the Nestorian connection, which others responded to openly. Thus, it'd be upon you to show otherwise.

Two, I am not certain where it was ever claimed that others were remotely arguing for what the Church condemned with the specific aspects of Rastafarianism. Nonetheless, as it concerns the flow of discussion, the only one bringing up any element of Rastafarianism to begin with was you.

Thus, the claim of being off-topic about Islam begins with you since others were responding to you bringing it into the discussion and it was simply noted that it is similar in many ways to Islam when it comes to being a corrupt form of Christology. Of course Rastafarianism was not condemned and this goes back to actually understanding what the Church has said, as it concerns the Bishops and Priests reaching out to others in West Indian culture and knowing how not all parts of the culture were things God had issue with. Being from the West Indies and also having family there while seeing things in action, you have not really witnessed the dynamics up close and personal so there's already a bit of a gap. But It is already been long discussed among EO and OO for yeas ont he issue and it is why it has been said by many that it inconsequential.

That said, as said before, certain topics can always be taken to St. Justin's if one really wanted to have a debate on it. It does not need to be a focus here.

 

[Wgw]

Hmm. I don't see how these are even remotely the same or even directly comparable, but okay.



Um...what? I'm not really sure what you're trying to say here. "Immans"? What's that? Do you mean Imams (prayer leaders at Sunni mosques), or are you trying to pluralize the Arabic word iman (faith) as though it were an English word?



It's not?



I see.



Ahhh...I see where you're coming from.

But yeah. Yeah it does. This whole "the Qur'an doesn't condemn Trinitarianism, just a confused version that makes Mary a member of it" is modern hooey, fed to gullible Christians in order to entice us to leave our religion for theirs. Don't fall for it, or at least don't spread it here.



Hahaha...uh...

(I know it's big...that's how much I'm not believing you.)



What does that even mean? It "affirms" Jesus's divinity above Muhammad in what way? Muhammad isn't considered divine in the first place, so that makes no sense. What do you mean?



People on the outside...like you? Or do you mean every other non-Muslim besides you?



Yeah, yeah...your way is better than everyone else's. Got any more humble bragging to do before returning to the actual topic?

I don't see why anyone should believe what you say, particularly in light of your characterizing other poster's replies (not only EO, but even other OO) as "waging war on Islam" (astaghfirullah/God forgive me!) for the horrible, horrible thought crime of (gasp!) saying that we do not worship the same God as the Christ-deniers who follow Muhammad's religion.

Because we don't.

I agree enthusiastically with this post.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

Hmm. I don't see how these are even remotely the same or even directly comparable, but okay.

It does not really do anything with regards to argument when you made the claim that Muslims and Christians both visit shrines and then ignore where someone says there are indeed places that occur. Whatever.

Um...what? I'm not really sure what you're trying to say here. "Immans"? What's that? Do you mean Imams (prayer leaders at Sunni mosques), or are you trying to pluralize the Arabic word iman (faith) as though it were an English word?

The easier way to go about things is to ask rather than react in sarcasm on spelling since it was already spelled Imams earlier. Of course, if wanting to go that route with the jesting, that is not a problem.

It's not?

Unless you can show in any way that 'orthodox' Islam has always believed the things you claimed and other things are on the bounderies of/outside of 'orthodox' Islam, it'd be odd trying to claim that other versions of Islam have never been in existence. We have to be consistent.

Ahhh...I see where you're coming from.

But yeah. Yeah it does. This whole "the Qur'an doesn't condemn Trinitarianism, just a confused version that makes Mary a member of it" is modern hooey, fed to gullible Christians in order to entice us to leave our religion for theirs. Don't fall for it, or at least don't spread it here.

Making a claim about Christians being gullible would be appeal to emotion rather than actually showing where the Qur'ran actually does condemn Trinitarianism and dealing fully with the actual text of the Qu'ran. That also does not deal with the Church Fathers who often spoke on the issue. No one said, by the way, that the Qu'ran not condemning the Trinity means others do not need to leave Islam and that would be a reaction to say otherwise. Respectfully, there's no need to spread something you cannot verify when others are already reaching out to Muslims by showing them otherwise in their text and helping them see what's found in Christianity. And there are plenty of people coming out of Islam who've pointed that out. For as basic:

IslamicDilemma
A series of lectures in Chicago by Apologist Sam Shamoun
of Answering Islam
, which deals with witnessing to Muslims/helping them see the inconsistencies in the Qu'ran and showing how Islam attests to the truth of Christianity
YOUTUBE.COM​

​

Hahaha...uh...

(I know it's big...that's how much I'm not believing you.)

Bless you, LOL. But of course, whether or not one actually believes is of no real consequence to what's happening in the world with others in many differing Muslim communities globally. One can ignore but they cannot change what's been there

What does that even mean? It "affirms" Jesus's divinity above Muhammad in what way? Muhammad isn't considered divine in the first place, so that makes no sense. What do you mean?

Already stated rather directly earlier (as seen here) on how the Qu'ran already notes that only Jesus is Divine/Sinless and God's Spirit.

People on the outside...like you? Or do you mean every other non-Muslim besides you?

As I already said I grew up with family in Islam (including the Nation of Islam which Malcolm X used to belong to) and had to do a lot of witnessing growing up (as it concerns my own grandmother as an example...more shared here and here in Jan 30, 2014 years ago). This has been the case for many Blacks from the West Indies when it comes to exposure with Islam and seeing iconic figures who are Islamic, be it athletes like Muhammad Ali/other athletes or civil rights figures like Malcolm X or figures in Hip Hop culture. Thus, respectfully, I think it'd be better not to so quick to say something before really listening.

Yeah, yeah...your way is better than everyone else's. Got any more humble bragging to do before returning to the actual topic?

Actually, you'd need to pause on the fact that only you bragged here when stating the following:

Then again, Coptic people being as they are (or at least the Coptic people I know), the debate that most often comes up among my friends from church is "Do Muslims worship Satan?", not "Do Muslims worship God?" But then I suppose we're extremists about certain things... ​

So of course, if it's not bragging to say your side acts like extremists, it's not logical when someone says there are others on their side that only tend to be extreme on things certain topics. But if it's wrong altogether, by all means lead the way

I don't see why anyone should believe what you say, particularly in light of your characterizing other poster's replies (not only EO, but even other OO) as "waging war on Islam" (astaghfirullah/God forgive me!) for the horrible, horrible thought crime of (gasp!) saying that we do not worship the same God as the Christ-deniers who follow Muhammad's religion.

Because we don't.

It doesn't really matter whether or not you believe since the fact of the matter is that no one said it was wrong to wage war on Islam - or that there weren't Muslims who deny Christ. Of course, if you wish to claim otherwise, by all means produce the quote.

I agree enthusiastically with this post.

It would actually be inconsistent with your attempt to rebuttal anything Kristos has said about Islam when it comes to St. John of Damascus. This goes right back to being consistent with argument, unless one wishes to go back and claim that there's nothing of Islam that has Christological focus since that is what the post argues counter to your own stances.