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Mainline Protestant churches are dying

Paidiske

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Hmm. In my experience the difficulty is not with younger folk - who know all too well their need for something more, and in many cases are actively seeking it - but with older folk who are comfortable and threatened by change. The attitude is all too commonly, "Give me 'the way we've always done things,' give me hymns I already know, give me worship experiences that don't challenge me, and don't push me to do anything to connect with the community beyond our church doors."

Now that's by no means everyone. But if you had to ask me, in leading a congregation, where I struggled with the attitudes in the congregation, it would be much more with what I just described, than anything in the younger folk.
 
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FireDragon76

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Hmm. In my experience the difficulty is not with younger folk - who know all too well their need for something more, and in many cases are actively seeking it - but with older folk who are comfortable and threatened by change. The attitude is all too commonly, "Give me 'the way we've always done things,' give me hymns I already know, give me worship experiences that don't challenge me, and don't push me to do anything to connect with the community beyond our church doors."

Now that's by no means everyone. But if you had to ask me, in leading a congregation, where I struggled with the attitudes in the congregation, it would be much more with what I just described, than anything in the younger folk.

Yes, that's definitely a factor too. Though in my experience a denomination like the United Church of Christ sees itself as being very responsive, I think this occurs more from a place of cultural echo chamber than genuine engagement with the lives of younger people in general.

There are a fair number of younger people that are interested in things like mysticism and spirituality, but I don't think mainline churches are positioning themselves to take advantage of that. Older generations want the typical practical Protestant religion they were raised with.
 
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ViaCrucis

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I'm reminded of Dr. King's statement that if the Church doesn't recapture its prophetic zeal, it becomes an irrelevant social club without spiritual or moral authority. The context of King's words here is that the Church can neither be master nor servant of the state; but must be a guide and critic of the state.

To be critic and guide cannot seek to be master of the state; as though the Church should be in charge over the state; and neither can it mean being an instrument, acting in a servile way, to the state. By "state" we can also talk about prevailing political attitudes, and the ever-shifting tides of political allegiances.

When the state is most favorable toward the Church, that is arguably the most important time for the Church to be critical of the state.
The Church must never become a mere cultural component of the status quo.
The Church must never forsake her allegiance to Christ above all else; and therefore can never relinquish the cross in favor of something else.

The Church, if it looks like the world, makes itself irrelevant.

And it doesn't matter if "the world" in this case is "conservative" or "liberal"; the comforts of power and the enjoyment of glory exist regardless of political divisions. Because human beings, even when we believe our cause just and good, are still sinners. The devil doesn't take a day off; my flesh doesn't stop being rotten. I must at every moment of life be bothered by the discomfort of God's commandments and confront my own in-built wrongness; and at the same time be comforted by the Good News of God's grace, love, and forgiveness through the suffering, death, and resurrection of Jesus Christ.

Moralistic sermons, sermons without power, can be found just about anywhere. I remember some in my old very NOT mainline Pentecostal church; and I've encountered them since becoming Lutheran, in both the ELCA and AALC. Granted I've heard much fewer of these in a Lutheran context. They're easy sermons, sermons that are probably be the least offensive, the least challenging, and can leave us all feeling like we're all basically decent people and that we just need to be happy comfortable and be basically decent. And while "be decent" probably isn't a terrible message, it's not going to do much to seriously challenge us, or disrupt our cozy self-image of ourselves, or provoke us to get down on our knees in repentance; nor comfort us with the Gospel. It's not going to be a proclamation of hope in an increasingly hope-starved world; and it's not going to be a proclamation of justice, neither of the justice we have before God through faith in Christ nor the justice to which we are called in living outwardly toward our neighbors and communities and toward the least of these in our midst.

Sometimes I need to be hit over the head a couple times, figuratively, with the word: Wake up, you've gotten complacent. Reminded that sometimes, yeah, I am just phoning in my confession--and while God's grace is abundant, real grace means real sin. I'm a real sinner, I need real mercy, I need real confession. And that also means I need to be reminded of the comfort I can only find in God's word, the comfort of grace, the comfort of Christ and the love of God--I'm forgiven. And now I need to forgive others, I need to turn the other cheek, I need to seek first God's kingdom, I need to love my neighbor, and serve the least of these. I need to deny myself and take up my cross--day in and day out.

I shouldn't be comfortable, rather I must understand that discipleship is not easy. Following Jesus is not "be nice and be happy" but "come and die".

-CryptoLutheran
 
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Pioneer3mm

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When the state is most favorable toward the Church, that is arguably the most important time for the Church to be critical of the state.
The Church must never become a mere cultural component of the status quo.
Good point.
---
There are examples/cases..in Christian history.
 
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FireDragon76

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I'm reminded of Dr. King's statement that if the Church doesn't recapture its prophetic zeal, it becomes an irrelevant social club without spiritual or moral authority. The context of King's words here is that the Church can neither be master nor servant of the state; but must be a guide and critic of the state.

To be critic and guide cannot seek to be master of the state; as though the Church should be in charge over the state; and neither can it mean being an instrument, acting in a servile way, to the state. By "state" we can also talk about prevailing political attitudes, and the ever-shifting tides of political allegiances.

When the state is most favorable toward the Church, that is arguably the most important time for the Church to be critical of the state.
The Church must never become a mere cultural component of the status quo.
The Church must never forsake her allegiance to Christ above all else; and therefore can never relinquish the cross in favor of something else.

The Church, if it looks like the world, makes itself irrelevant.

And it doesn't matter if "the world" in this case is "conservative" or "liberal"; the comforts of power and the enjoyment of glory exist regardless of political divisions. Because human beings, even when we believe our cause just and good, are still sinners. The devil doesn't take a day off; my flesh doesn't stop being rotten. I must at every moment of life be bothered by the discomfort of God's commandments and confront my own in-built wrongness; and at the same time be comforted by the Good News of God's grace, love, and forgiveness through the suffering, death, and resurrection of Jesus Christ.

Moralistic sermons, sermons without power, can be found just about anywhere. I remember some in my old very NOT mainline Pentecostal church; and I've encountered them since becoming Lutheran, in both the ELCA and AALC. Granted I've heard much fewer of these in a Lutheran context. They're easy sermons, sermons that are probably be the least offensive, the least challenging, and can leave us all feeling like we're all basically decent people and that we just need to be happy comfortable and be basically decent. And while "be decent" probably isn't a terrible message, it's not going to do much to seriously challenge us, or disrupt our cozy self-image of ourselves, or provoke us to get down on our knees in repentance; nor comfort us with the Gospel. It's not going to be a proclamation of hope in an increasingly hope-starved world; and it's not going to be a proclamation of justice, neither of the justice we have before God through faith in Christ nor the justice to which we are called in living outwardly toward our neighbors and communities and toward the least of these in our midst.

Sometimes I need to be hit over the head a couple times, figuratively, with the word: Wake up, you've gotten complacent. Reminded that sometimes, yeah, I am just phoning in my confession--and while God's grace is abundant, real grace means real sin. I'm a real sinner, I need real mercy, I need real confession. And that also means I need to be reminded of the comfort I can only find in God's word, the comfort of grace, the comfort of Christ and the love of God--I'm forgiven. And now I need to forgive others, I need to turn the other cheek, I need to seek first God's kingdom, I need to love my neighbor, and serve the least of these. I need to deny myself and take up my cross--day in and day out.

I shouldn't be comfortable, rather I must understand that discipleship is not easy. Following Jesus is not "be nice and be happy" but "come and die".

-CryptoLutheran

Your thoughts help me put things in context, though perhaps not in a way you intended.

Our pastor has a very nurturing spirit and alot of compassion for the downtrodden (and animals, which is always a sign of a good character in my book), and doesn't like to clobber people. Given the context we find ourselves in, as one of the few openly gay accepting churches in Orlando, that's probably fitting with our sense of mission to some extent: to be an alternative to culturally conservative, moralistic religion.

I suspect that the younger generation just has grown cold and has no sense of enduring, transcendent values, or even why those would be an important thing to seek out in the first place (there's certainly far less social pressure to seek out those things and have them be an important touchstone in your life). I can't explain why I am drawn to our little church. There's quite a bit I don't agree with. However, for me it's not about political agreement or finding your tribe- we all come from different backgrounds. It's just a place of decency, respect, and kindness in a culture that's increasingly indecent, disrespectful, and unkind. And I suspect alot of young people are confusing finding their tribe, with finding meaning and purpose in enduring values. And that's a very wrongheaded and primitive way to think about what is truly satisfying in life.
 
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MaximumCrust

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Today was the day this really hit home to me.

Our pastor was injured in a fall and is in recovery. So we had a substitute pastor, a retired UCC pastor come to preach. His sermon just seemed like the typical liberal mainline Protestant stuff I grew up with in the United Methodist church. "Make the world a better place" and the Social Gospel (his words). I can't really fault him too harshly over just one sermon, but, I don't think this kind of thing is really engaging with young people and contemporary existential threats we are facing that seem to erode life of meaning.

I am reminded of what Bonhoeffer said decades ago, of the Mainline in the US, that it preaches a Christ without a cross, salvation without judgement, etc. It's more true than ever. The religion has been hollowed out in favor of pleasant moralisms that don't speak to the deep pain and fear in the world, or the vulnerability felt by many people in our society. I'm all for having a welcoming church that doesn't shun gay people, but there has to be a better way than this...

At our congregational meeting (I'm non-voting at the moment since my membership in the church has been delayed due to the pastor's injury), the finances for the church are not great. We are having to dip into savings. Only about 35 members bothered to show up for the meeting. I think this is what end-stage looks like. Almost everybody in the church is over 60, and most of them are over 70.
The RCC is hemorrhaging members as well, in addition to evangelical Christianity in general (except maybe Pentecostals, i think). It has nothing to do with the theological or political liberalism of Mainline churches. The west is simply secularizing. It has been for decades. Eventually there will be a revival, hopefully, but who knows what that will look like. One thing is for sure: young people aren't interested in religious legalism, bigotry, or fire and brimstone.
 
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The Liturgist

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The RCC is hemorrhaging members as well, in addition to evangelical Christianity in general (except maybe Pentecostals, i think). It has nothing to do with the theological or political liberalism of Mainline churches. The west is simply secularizing. It has been for decades. Eventually there will be a revival, hopefully, but who knows what that will look like. One thing is for sure: young people aren't interested in religious legalism, bigotry, or fire and brimstone.

Alas, that’s simply not the reason for the loss of members. If you look at traditional Latin Mass parishes, they are filled with families and young people. Every pew is full at the local TLM, and this has remained the case despite Traditiones Custodes (and indeed, I would note that there have been no traditional latin masses in this area suppressed as a result of Traditiones Custodes, so one cannot attribute the growth in attendance to a consolidation of available Tridentine masses in the area - it is rather authentically organic).

Likewise, the Orthodox Church has been experiencing a spectacular influx of converts, and also has a high reproductive rate. The only Eastern Orthodox church in North America that is contracting is the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese, which has a reputation for being somewhat liberal and ethno-centric, and in general those who are not ethnically Greek have historically had less fruitful careers with GoArch than those who are, although in recent years this has fortunately been changing.

On the other hand, the Coptic Orthodox Church, the Syriac Orthodox Church, the Antiochian Orthodox Church, the Orthodox Church in America and ROCOR, among others, have been seeing a very steady influx of converts as well as new arrivals from the Old Country in the case of the Copts, Antiochians and Syriac Orthodox (who live largely in those areas of the Middle East which have become increasingly hostile to Christians in recent years). And the reproductive rate among both groups is high, with frequent baptisms of newborn children, and frequent receptions of entire families, moreso into the Eastern Orthodox churches, but the Oriental Orthodox, especially the Coptic Orthodox, are seeing an increase in conversions.

Likewise, I have heard that some of the more traditional liturgical Protestant churches, such as certain Continuing Anglican churches of the Anglo-Catholic persuasion, and Evangelical Catholic Lutheran churches, which emphasize a traditional liturgy and traditional moral values, are benefitting from this same conversion and high reproductive rate.

The reality is that traditional Christians will reproduce at higher frequencies, and the younger generations of Christians seem more interested in liturgy and mystery than older generations. This should have been obvious given the liturgical aspects of Taize in Europe, but this fact was missed, and instead a very watered down liturgy was implemented across the RCC and mainline Protestantism, one which stressed “active participation” and “engagement” over silence, mystery, contemplation and liturgical beauty. And the result is an experience which is overly intellectual and rational, and lacking in opportunities for prayer. There is a reason why Eucharistic Adoration and the public prayer of the Rosary and the Novena is so popular among Roman Catholics - they provide mystery, silence and the opportunity for contemplation.

These are things the mass no longer offers, which previously characterized it in both the Low Mass and Missa Cantata / Solemn High Mass forms.

Rather, there is a drabness of experience in the way the mass celebrated in most parishes (it is possible to do a very beautiful Novus Ordo mass, but this is rare, for example, one California Mission near my location does not even bother to use incense at most services, of all things, and is proud of this fact, as though these “bells and smells” are the superstitious holdovers from an obsolete form of Catholic worship that must be consigned to the past in order to challenge the intellectual movements driving the “Secularization” you refer to on their own territory, and also to avoid causing anyone offense, and to dispel potentially negative stereotypes about Roman Catholic worship, when the reality is that this is what so many Roman Catholics are seeking, as is demonstrated by the very high attendance, both at churches which provide the traditional Latin mass, and also at those which seek to conduct the Novus Ordo Mass with great reverence. Also, I would lament that the Divine Office, or Liturgy of the Hours as it is now called, despite the best efforts of the Council of Trent, of Pope Pius X, and of Vatican II, and even the Concilium under Annibale Bugnini, remains mostly the private devotion of the clergy - very few parishes offer a public celebration of Matins (which if I recall is now called the Office of Readings), Lauds, Vespers, Compline or any other offices from the Liturgy of the Hours.
 
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Akita Suggagaki

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One of many factors maybe a lost sense of community. We are all so mobile, moving, job switching, church switching, can't find one you like? Do your own thing.
 
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Valletta

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The RCC is hemorrhaging members as well, in addition to evangelical Christianity in general (except maybe Pentecostals, i think).
 
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MaximumCrust

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Alas, that’s simply not the reason for the loss of members. If you look at traditional Latin Mass parishes, they are filled with families and young people. Every pew is full at the local TLM, and this has remained the case despite Traditiones Custodes (and indeed, I would note that there have been no traditional latin masses in this area suppressed as a result of Traditiones Custodes, so one cannot attribute the growth in attendance to a consolidation of available Tridentine masses in the area - it is rather authentically organic).

Likewise, the Orthodox Church has been experiencing a spectacular influx of converts, and also has a high reproductive rate. The only Eastern Orthodox church in North America that is contracting is the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese, which has a reputation for being somewhat liberal and ethno-centric, and in general those who are not ethnically Greek have historically had less fruitful careers with GoArch than those who are, although in recent years this has fortunately been changing.

On the other hand, the Coptic Orthodox Church, the Syriac Orthodox Church, the Antiochian Orthodox Church, the Orthodox Church in America and ROCOR, among others, have been seeing a very steady influx of converts as well as new arrivals from the Old Country in the case of the Copts, Antiochians and Syriac Orthodox (who live largely in those areas of the Middle East which have become increasingly hostile to Christians in recent years). And the reproductive rate among both groups is high, with frequent baptisms of newborn children, and frequent receptions of entire families, moreso into the Eastern Orthodox churches, but the Oriental Orthodox, especially the Coptic Orthodox, are seeing an increase in conversions.

Likewise, I have heard that some of the more traditional liturgical Protestant churches, such as certain Continuing Anglican churches of the Anglo-Catholic persuasion, and Evangelical Catholic Lutheran churches, which emphasize a traditional liturgy and traditional moral values, are benefitting from this same conversion and high reproductive rate.

The reality is that traditional Christians will reproduce at higher frequencies, and the younger generations of Christians seem more interested in liturgy and mystery than older generations. This should have been obvious given the liturgical aspects of Taize in Europe, but this fact was missed, and instead a very watered down liturgy was implemented across the RCC and mainline Protestantism, one which stressed “active participation” and “engagement” over silence, mystery, contemplation and liturgical beauty. And the result is an experience which is overly intellectual and rational, and lacking in opportunities for prayer. There is a reason why Eucharistic Adoration and the public prayer of the Rosary and the Novena is so popular among Roman Catholics - they provide mystery, silence and the opportunity for contemplation.

These are things the mass no longer offers, which previously characterized it in both the Low Mass and Missa Cantata / Solemn High Mass forms.

Rather, there is a drabness of experience in the way the mass celebrated in most parishes (it is possible to do a very beautiful Novus Ordo mass, but this is rare, for example, one California Mission near my location does not even bother to use incense at most services, of all things, and is proud of this fact, as though these “bells and smells” are the superstitious holdovers from an obsolete form of Catholic worship that must be consigned to the past in order to challenge the intellectual movements driving the “Secularization” you refer to on their own territory, and also to avoid causing anyone offense, and to dispel potentially negative stereotypes about Roman Catholic worship, when the reality is that this is what so many Roman Catholics are seeking, as is demonstrated by the very high attendance, both at churches which provide the traditional Latin mass, and also at those which seek to conduct the Novus Ordo Mass with great reverence. Also, I would lament that the Divine Office, or Liturgy of the Hours as it is now called, despite the best efforts of the Council of Trent, of Pope Pius X, and of Vatican II, and even the Concilium under Annibale Bugnini, remains mostly the private devotion of the clergy - very few parishes offer a public celebration of Matins (which if I recall is now called the Office of Readings), Lauds, Vespers, Compline or any other offices from the Liturgy of the Hours.
One fact check showed everything you just said to be wrong.
 
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Valletta

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One fact check showed everything you just said to be wrong.
There was a significant numeric loss in the past and keeping young people is a problem. I agree very much with the Liturgist with the caveat that I think it wasn't necessarily the Latin mass but the reverence and sense of holiness that comes with the Latin mass. At our parish there still is a sense of reverence, the priest sometimes wears a biretta, sometimes offers mass with his back to the people, encourages communion on the tongue, and was often having adoration with incense immediately after the last Sunday mass. (Our pastor has been gone, temporarily, for some time.) I think this sends a message that many of the old ways were indeed reverent ways. In my opinion if holiness is emphasized people will come.
 
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lismore

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At our congregational meeting (I'm non-voting at the moment since my membership in the church has been delayed due to the pastor's injury), the finances for the church are not great. We are having to dip into savings. Only about 35 members bothered to show up for the meeting. I think this is what end-stage looks like. Almost everybody in the church is over 60, and most of them are over 70.
Hello FireDragon! I attended a presentation by the pastor of 'Harper Memorial Church, Glasgow' a week past Saturday. They were in a similar place ten years ago, elderly congregation, dwindling funds, looked like the end.

They looked around the local area, most church members didn't live locally but drove in for the service. They got the idea to intentionally reach out to the Asylum seeker community, many of whom were based in that area of Glasgow, with practical help, English classes, child-care facilities, community events, lunches and dinners and the gospel involving some translation work. They have seen a lot of people coming to faith, especially those from an Islamic background. I heard the church is now considering additional services and a church plant because there are so many people coming to faith. They manage to balance so many people from different ethnicities, worshipping together.

Here is the church's website, sermons available in six languages:


So don't give up. You have a facility, you have people. You have God. You have hope to turn things around, build a Godly community. Maybe an unexpected one. Harper church started their revival small, with a little tentative step, but ended up not only surviving but thriving.

God Bless :)
 
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ByTheSpirit

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Not that it helps in this specific instance, but I've felt for a while that churches are dying because for a while they became places of entertainment rather than houses of worship. As someone touched on, (and this certainly doesn't apply universally) but the cross is not preached, lifestyle change is not advocated for. Jesus came to change us. He came to transform us from what we were (enemies of God due to sin) into what we were always meant to be (children of the most High). Instead of sacrifice and self denial, we are presented with "Everyday a Friday" and "Be prepared to have your socks blessed off". People go to church to get from God instead of giving to others. They attend a church that can keep them entertained and when the entertainment ends, they leave. It's no easy fix, and I'm not claiming to have an answer, but honestly it appears the only way forward is a resetting of the model. Go back to basics and let those who leave leave. Stick to a core group of devout followers and go forward. Churches in decline is just a symptom of the overarching problem I think.
 
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JEBofChristTheLord

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Indeed. If we do not place principal focus upon that which Christ the Lord said, did, and discussed, no amount of pasting of crosses will bring worthwhile success. We must be reminded that we must deny ourselves, not glorify ourselves.
 
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lismore

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Not that it helps in this specific instance, but I've felt for a while that churches are dying because for a while they became places of entertainment rather than houses of worship. As someone touched on, (and this certainly doesn't apply universally) but the cross is not preached, lifestyle change is not advocated for. Jesus came to change us. He came to transform us from what we were (enemies of God due to sin) into what we were always meant to be (children of the most High). Instead of sacrifice and self denial, we are presented with "Everyday a Friday" and "Be prepared to have your socks blessed off". People go to church to get from God instead of giving to others. They attend a church that can keep them entertained and when the entertainment ends, they leave. It's no easy fix, and I'm not claiming to have an answer, but honestly it appears the only way forward is a resetting of the model. Go back to basics and let those who leave leave. Stick to a core group of devout followers and go forward. Churches in decline is just a symptom of the overarching problem I think.
Hello! Such times were foretold in the bible:

2 Timothy 3 1 But mark this: There will be terrible times in the last days. 2 People will be....... lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God— 5 having a form of godliness but denying its power.

Sadly when entertainment in churches seems to be popular the temptation is for other churches to follow suit. Popularity means more tithes, more influence. It's a slow death, because the rot can take decades to become apparent, but a couple of generations on whole churches have had all authentic Christian doctrine and practice sucked out of them.

But even with a small number of true believers there is hope~ wherever the gospel is preached there is fruit.

God Bless :)
 
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RileyG

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Yes, that's definitely a factor too. Though in my experience a denomination like the United Church of Christ sees itself as being very responsive, I think this occurs more from a place of cultural echo chamber than genuine engagement with the lives of younger people in general.

There are a fair number of younger people that are interested in things like mysticism and spirituality, but I don't think mainline churches are positioning themselves to take advantage of that. Older generations want the typical practical Protestant religion they were raised with.
Not to ramble on, but I think a lot of younger folk have a very interesting view on God and how the world works. People no longer think of themselves as "bad" but good. Many Churches are now evolving past the original sin, and brokenness of humanity etc.

Maybe I'm making no sense?
 
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JEBofChristTheLord

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Not to ramble on, but I think a lot of younger folk have a very interesting view on God and how the world works. People no longer think of themselves as "bad" but good. Many Churches are now evolving past the original sin, and brokenness of humanity etc.

Maybe I'm making no sense?
Many indeed disagree with Christ the Lord, who said that God alone is good. The consequences will not be pleasant.
 
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RileyG

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Many indeed disagree with Christ the Lord, who said that God alone is good. The consequences will not be pleasant.
This is a liberal forum, so I have nothing else to add.

Take care
 
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FireDragon76

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Not to ramble on, but I think a lot of younger folk have a very interesting view on God and how the world works. People no longer think of themselves as "bad" but good. Many Churches are now evolving past the original sin, and brokenness of humanity etc.

Maybe I'm making no sense?

I hear what you are saying, but I disagree somewhat. I think younger people have similar sentiments sometimes, but talk about them in different ways.

And since this is a liberal Christian space, I think our God-talk is always a bit of a moving target. Young people now days do have a spiritual side, but many churches haven't done a good job speaking to that, or advertising what they do have on offer.
 
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