Loving the law and unity

[St_Worm2]

If we have apostles today where are they?

We do not have Apostles today, at least not like the 12 who walked with the Lord Jesus in the 1st Century. Why did you ask that question?

 

[soldier of light]

We do not have Apostles today, at least not like the 12 who walked with the Lord Jesus during the 1st Century. Why did you ask that question?

Because you're quoting scripture about apostles being appointed to the church. I dont know how many apostles there were In Paul's day, i only know apostles bear the marks of an apostle and no one today bears those marks. We dont have miracle workers either

 

[St_Worm2]

Those are present tense only when they were written. There are no apostles today. No healers or miracle workers.

What There are no more Apostles in the sense of the 12, but there are certainly preachers and teachers today, as well those who are given gifts of various kinds for the wellbeing of the body. The miraculous gifts still exist in the church today, and are used by God when/as He sees fit. ALL will witness them again however (as I'm sure you know) during the end times (which we are not specifically in yet).

 

[St_Worm2]

I will search for your other thread when I return and see what you have to say there (though I may not post again until tomorrow, just FYI).

--David

 

[soldier of light]

What There are no more Apostles in the sense of the 12, but there are certainly preachers and teachers today, as well those who are given gifts of various kinds for the wellbeing of the body. The miraculous gifts still exist in the church today, and are used by God when/as He sees fit. ALL will witness them again however (as I'm sure you know) during the end times (which we are not specifically in yet).

Do you understand that apostles did miracles and had power? No one has that today. If there is a miracle it's done by prayer not by some miracle worker. We have plenty of teachers. Teachers sadly dont see the state of their flock. They teach what they know personally but they dont see their flock devoured by politics and love for the world.

 

[St_Worm2]

Do you understand that apostles did miracles and had power?

Hello again Soldier of Light, yes, the miracles that they performed in the earliest days of the church were a sign to the people who they were teaching/evangelizing, telling them,

1. that they were who/what they claimed to be (the Lord Jesus' Apostles and messengers, then, from God Himself) and,​

2. that they could believe that what they were being taught was the truth.​

Just to be clear however, they had no inherent power to perform these miracles by themselves, rather, it was received by them from the Holy Spirit (who now indwelt them .. following Pentecost, that is) .. e.g. Acts 1:8, 2:1-4. IOW He, the Holy Spirit, gave the power to them and performed their many miraculous signs through them.

No one has that today.

That's true, as the abundance of miraculous signs (that were the mark of the Lord's Apostles) are no longer needed today but, as I mentioned earlier, they will happen again in a similar way at the end of the age .. e.g. Revelation 11:1-14.

Teachers sadly don't see the state of their flock. They teach what they know personally but they don't see their flock devoured by politics and love for the world.

There are more than a quarter of a million local churches in the United States today, and millions of teaching elders and pastors who lead them. You speak as if you are an authority on this topic, but since you do not attend any of these churches yourself, how can you possibly know what is going on inside even one of them, much less inside of all of them

Have I seen behavior like this in some of our local churches, and/or by some of our pastors? Sadly, yes, but this is ~hardly~ the majority report, at least it has not been in my 39+ years of experience as a Christian anyway. Instead, it has always been FAR better than that, PTL!!

Finally, if this is what you truly believe about the general condition of our churches, the laity, and our pastors, why aren't you attending at least one of them regularly as a Soldier of "Light", to do whatever you can to help them recognize and fix the problems that they're having, and to find their way, then, back to God who is light?

God bless you!!

--David

 

[soldier of light]

Hello again Soldier of Light, yes, the miracles that they performed in the earliest days of the church were a sign to the people who they were teaching/evangelizing, telling them,

1. that they were who/what they claimed to be (the Lord Jesus' Apostles and messengers, then, from God Himself) and,​

2. that they could believe that what they were being taught was the truth.​

Just to be clear however, they had no inherent power to perform these miracles by themselves, rather, it was received by them from the Holy Spirit (who now indwelt them .. following Pentecost, that is) .. e.g. Acts 1:8, 2:1-4. IOW He, the Holy Spirit, gave the power to them and performed their many miraculous signs through them.


That's true, as the abundance of miraculous signs (that were the mark of the Lord's Apostles) are no longer needed today but, as I mentioned earlier, they will happen again in a similar way at the end of the age .. e.g. Revelation 11:1-14.


There are more than a quarter of a million local churches in the United States today, and millions of teaching elders and pastors who lead them. You speak as if you are an authority on this topic, but since you do not attend any of these churches yourself, how can you possibly know what is going on inside even one of them, much less inside of all of them

Have I seen behavior like this in some of our local churches, and/or by some of our pastors? Sadly, yes, but this is ~hardly~ the majority report, at least it has not been in my 39+ years of experience as a Christian anyway. Instead, it has always been FAR better than that, PTL!!

Finally, if this is what you truly believe about the general condition of our churches, the laity, and our pastors, why aren't you attending at least one of them regularly as a Soldier of "Light", to do whatever you can to help them recognize and fix the problems that they're having, and to find their way, then, back to God who is light?

God bless you!!

--David

My friend I dont care what these churches do or don't do. I'm not posting in this forum anymore.

 

[BelieveItOarKnot]

Hello again @soldier of light, coming to saving faith is indeed simple (in a sense and in a very real way, though even this part of the faith can be complicated, yes), but it seems to me that becoming a Christian is where simplicity in the Christian faith ends, for the most part anyway. In fact, I'm thankful that we have an eternity to mine the depths of God's word, as well to come to a greater and greater understanding of Him (though I do not believe that the eternity that lies before us will be a long enough for any of us to understand everything about Him, at least not fully).

As an example for you to consider, the Lord Jesus, in both the OT and the NT tells us this,

Exodus 20​

12 “Honor your father and your mother, that your days may be prolonged in the land which the LORD your God gives you."​

​

Matthew 19​

19 "HONOR YOUR FATHER AND MOTHER; and YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.” ​

Likewise, the Apostle Paul tells us,

Ephesians 6​

1 Children, obey your parents in the Lord, for this is right. ​

2 HONOR YOUR FATHER AND MOTHER (which is the first commandment with a promise), ​

3 SO THAT IT MAY BE WELL WITH YOU, AND THAT YOU MAY LIVE LONG ON THE EARTH. ​

However, the Lord Jesus also commands us to do the following,

Luke 14​

26 “If anyone comes to Me, and does not ~hate~ his own father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters, yes, and even his own life, he ~cannot be~ My disciple."​

This example seems far more complicated than simple, yes, and yet, this is hardly as complicated as the Christian faith gets

The good news (from all the way back in the Pentateuch) is this, on the one hand much of the Christian faith is shrouded, to one degree or another, in "mystery", but God (on the other hand) has also given us all that we need to find Him, to be saved by Him, and to live the basics of the Christian life before Him, if we diligently seek to do so

All in all, it does make for a very wonderful/wondrous and interesting faith, yes? (even if much of it is anything but simple)

God bless you!!

--David

Deuteronomy 29​

29 The ~secret things~ belong to the Lord our God, but the things revealed belong to us and to our sons forever, that we may observe all the words of this Law.​

​

I don't see Luke 14:26 quoted by too many believers, and yes, it does contain a fantastic conundrum doesn't it? Is it complicated? Absolutely it's as complicated as a snake wrapping around a staff.

In facts of discourse, IF we don't hate our own lives, we have not even entered into disciple territory. How cool is that?

YET the churches are awash in the phony "God only always and ever" loves ME ME ME story.

Nothing could be further from the truth.

And, even more interestingly, these same folks condemn the bulk of our neighbors to possibly or outright fry alive forever. You know, the same neighbors we are to love. OR is that to HATE?

Yes, interesting in DEED.

The poison of adders under the tongue or the venom of asps on the lips is not a physical thing, but it is so readily available to be seen and heard it's AMAZING. The world is full of this particular MIRACLE and yet so few can see it, and even fewer pick it up to handle.

Napkins anyone?

 

[Bro.T]

Paul concerning the unchangeable Royal Law of God. (Rom. 13:7-10) (v.7) Render therefore to all their dues: tribute to whom tribute is due; custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honour to whom honour. (v.8) Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law. That’s the biblical definition of love, the keeping of God’s law. (v.9) For this, THOU SHALT NOT COMMIT ADULTERY, THOU SHALT NOT KILL, THOU SHALT NOT BEAR FALSE WITNESS, THOU SHALT NOT COVET; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, THOU SHALT LOVE THY NEIGHBOUR AS THYSELF. (v.10) Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

And that is what God’s holy commandments are all about; the first four tells you how to love God and the last six tells you how to love your neighbor. If you love your God you will not do any thing to offend him, like having other gods before him. You will do as he says like remember the sabbath day to keep it holy on the seventh day of the week. If you love him you will obey him when he tells you not to eat certain meats etc… And the same goes for your fellow man, if you love your neighbor you wouldn’t steal from him, you wouldn’t kill him, you wouldn’t try and sleep with his wife and so on and so forth. (See exodus 20: 1-17)

This is God’s definition of love and it is perfect in its ways. The law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul: The testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple. The statutes of the LORD are right, rejoicing the heart: The commandment of the LORD is pure, enlightening the eyes. 9 The fear of the LORD is clean, enduring for ever: The judgments of the LORD are true and righteous altogether. More to be desired are they than gold, yea, than much fine gold: Sweeter also than honey and the honeycomb. Moreover by them is thy servant warned: And in keeping of them there is great reward. (Psalm 19: 7-11)

 

[concretecamper]

I love the law of Christ. I prefer the Bible to teachers and i prefer simplicity rather than divisions and discord. Simplicity is the only way to unity in my opinion.

1 Corinthians 1:10 Now I plead with you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment.

John 14:21 He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me. And he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and manifest Myself to him.”

Psalm 119:97 Oh, how I love Your law!
It is my meditation all the day.
98 You, through Your commandments, make me wiser than my enemies;
For they are ever with me.
99 I have more understanding than all my teachers,
For Your testimonies are my meditation.
100 I understand more than the [a]ancients,
Because I keep Your precepts.
101 I have restrained my feet from every evil way,
That I may keep Your word.
102 I have not departed from Your judgments,
For You Yourself have taught me.
103 How sweet are Your words to my taste,
Sweeter than honey to my mouth!
104 Through Your precepts I get understanding;
Therefore I hate every false way.
נ NUN
105 Your word is a lamp to my feet
And a light to my path.
106 I have sworn and confirmed
That I will keep Your righteous judgments.
107 I am afflicted very much;
Revive me, O Lord, according to Your word.
108 Accept, I pray, the freewill offerings of my mouth, O Lord,
And teach me Your judgments.
109 My life is continually in my hand,
Yet I do not forget Your law.

Well the vast majority of Christians didn't learn the Gospel of Jesus Christ by reading. They learned it from someone teaching it

I would say division comes from precisely the premise that ANYONE can read and interpret Scripture by themselves.

You are in fact preferring division and abandoning simplicity.

 

[Dan Perez]

Because you're quoting scripture about apostles being appointed to the church. I dont know how many apostles there were In Paul's day, i only know apostles bear the marks of an apostle and no one today bears those marks. We dont have miracle workers either

And APOSTOLOS // APOSTLE , JUST means Messenger .

And in Eph 4:10 --11 Christ , and He gave indeed apostles , and the Prophets , and the Evangelists , and the Pastors

and Teachers , and notice all are in the PLURAL .

And the ASSEMBLY is divided !!

# 1 By BAPTISM

# 2 By WATER BAPTISM

# 3 Divided buy BAPTIMA

# 4 Divided by Tongues

# 5 Divided by LAW of Moses

# 6 Divided by the the NEW COVENANT

# 7 DIVIDED by DISPESATIONALISM

Just to mention a FEW !!

dan p