"Let all things be done unto edifying"

[LoveofTruth]

God bless,

There is a word that is used many times in the New Testament, and it has a very important meaning and understanding. But sadly, today many are not walking in this today in many gatherings of the saints. That word is "edifying", or edification.

We see this word used in many areas, here is a few examples.

“How is it then, brethren? when ye come together, every one of you hath a psalm, hath a doctrine, hath a tongue, hath a revelation, hath an interpretation. Let all things be done unto edifying.” (1 Corinthians 14:26 KJV).

Notice that all the body can minister and edify one another in Christ. Not just one man called the pastor, or a few other elders.

"“Again, think ye that we excuse ourselves unto you? we speak before God in Christ: but we do all things, dearly beloved, for your edifying.” (2 Corinthians 12:19 KJV)

“Even so ye, forasmuch as ye are zealous of spiritual gifts, seek that ye may excel to the edifying of the church.”" (1 Corinthians 14;12 KJV).

Paul shows that they can do this and edify the church. He nowhere sets up a one man pastor over all with a "sermon", or man's order.

and this section specifically shows that Christ (who alone is the head of the church) works in every part of the body to edify the church. Can we take these things lightly and ignore them today? No,

"But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ: 16 From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love." *Ephesians 4:15m,16 KJV)

There we have such a wonderful spiritual and profound section of scripture that shows the inner working of Christ in the body working effectively in EVERY part to make the increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love. This is not always done among the saints. In fact it is rarely done in most gatherings. Instead a man made program is set up with a one man ministry over all called the pastor. Yes, there are pastor gifts, but not just pastor gifts (Ephesians 4:11,12) and the word edifying is used again among them, and not just with a pastor gift as we wrongly see everywhere today. Read Hebrews 13:20, 21 and see also that God is working in all believers through Christ unto every good work. This must be allowed to happen at all times. Believers are told in scripture to exhort one another, edify one another, pray for one another, teach one another, allow all gifts to manifest to one another etc. And we cannot say to one part we have no need of you ( 1 Cor 12).

The word edifying means;

οἰκοδομή oikodomḗ, oy-kod-om-ay'; feminine (abstract) of a compound of G3624 and the base of G1430; architecture, i.e. (concretely) a structure; figuratively, confirmation:—building, edify(-ication, -ing).

1. (the act of) building, building up
2. metaph. edifying, edification
   1. the act of one who promotes another's growth in Christian wisdom, piety, happiness, holines

So it means to build up as a house builder.

The church is the body of Christ and is also referred to as the house of God a spiritual house built up.

“Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.”" ( 1 Peter 2:5 KJV)

“But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end.”" (Hebrews 3:6 KJV)

This spiritual aspect is sadly missing in many gatherings today. This functioning of the church is how we edify one another as Christ works in us and we see the manifesting of the gifts of God in the church. This is a wonderful and important function of the church gathering. Without this we do not see the body being built up (edified) rightly or others using their gifts as good stewards . The Spirit can often be quenched in many gatherings if they hinder this edifying in Christ to one another whenever we come together in Christ.

Sadly, many have set up a one man pastor ministry over all and the entire body is silent and controlled strictly by the traditions of men and men's commands and by laws etc. This fights against the commands of Christ for the church (1 Cor 14:26-38).


This edifying ministers grace through Christ working in us directly and this is how we build up or edify one another. This is How Christ builds His church from within us. We also read;

“Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth, but that which is good to the use of edifying, that it may minister grace unto the hearers.”

We see that not only Paul spoke of this edifying which ministers grace as Christ works in all Peter also spoke of this,

"As every man hath received the gift, even so minister the same one to another, as good stewards of the manifold grace of God. 11 If any man speak, let him speak as the oracles of God; if any man minister, let him do it as of the ability which God giveth: that God in all things may be glorified through Jesus Christ, to whom be praise and dominion for ever and ever. Amen." (1 Peter 4:10, 11 KJV)

Notice that Peter speaks of "everyman" having gifts to be ministered to others. This is how the manifold grace of God is working in the church unto edifying. But to hinder this and not allow any to speak or manifest the gifts in Christ is dangerous and false and hinders the body.

Also we are commanded here to be good stewards of the gifts and grace of God. If God gives us a gift for the body and to help others and we sit there afraid to speak because of some commandments and man made traditions that make the word of God of no effect, then we are not obeying God or a good steward. There will be an account one day for these things if we are not faithful and if we do not use what God has given us. Paul said woe unto me if I preach not the gospel. Imagine Paul was in our time today w and walked into a gathering where all face the back of each other's heads and one man is exalted called the pastor over all and no one can minister freely the manifold gifts in the grace of God to edify one another as Christ works in them. What do you think Paul would do?. He would speak out and most likely be kicked out sadly.

God works in every believer to make us perfect unto EVERY GOOD WORK. That includes all ministry and gifts flowing from within by Christ working in us. So I exhort and encourage all who hear to be faithful stewards of the gifts and grace of God and to do all things unto edifying in the church as they gather. Do not seek to please men or fear men. If I should seek to please men I should not be the servant of Christ.

God bless, let's talk about these things and examine your gatherings if they walk in this grace and edification. Remember all things must be done unto "edifying". All things means all things.

If your gathering does not walk in these commands and direction of the Spirit in the church. I would suggest you try to speak to others in your gathering about this and if none will listen and the so-called "Pastor", (the one man over all who controls all things not biblically) tries to brow beat you or rebuke you and does not want to follow scripture and ignores you. Then bring another brother with you to try and help him and if he will not listen bring it before the church (Matthew 18). Sadly the command of Christ to bring things before the church and to hear the whole church is also not being done today and this is hindered again by the man made order and traditions and commandments and man made by laws of many churches, But we must walk in the truth as God has shown us and be good stewards.

If all else fails, find faithful brothers and sisters who will meet together with you in someone's home and wait on the Lord for ministry and gifts and pray and have a meal together, singing with grace in your hearts and let the word of Christ dwell in you richly teaching and admonishing one another.

and consider this seriously in prayer,

“Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye withdraw yourselves from every brother that walketh disorderly, and not after the tradition which he received of us.” (2 Thess. 3:6 KJV)

 

[LoveofTruth]

Im guessing a few things by the non response to this.

1. That all agree with this and it shocks them because the assembly they gather with does not do this or the one man over all called the "pastor" does not allow this and is basically saying to the body "we have no need you" everything will be said and done by the "Pastor".

2. Some are challenged by this and know it is scriptural and would change everything so they just keep quiet and do nothing out of fear and not wanting to stir up everything or provoke others to good works.

3.Some are in disagreement with this, but not really sure why, they most likely have been so influenced by the traditions of men and man made commandments that turn from the truth and so they just avoid this.

4. Some may be in some kind of man made "leadership" or pastors and they avoid this strongly not wanting to change anything or shake up their religious system with the truth. It is as if they say, " I believe what I believe , don't bother me with the facts". But to do this shows they are hindering the body and acting as Lords over the saints and quenching the spirit in the body and fighting against the commandments of the Lord ( 1 Cor 14:26-38 KJV)

5. Some may see the truth here but really don't know what to do. I suggested what to do in the first post however. And I would encourage all to be good stewards of the grace of God and the gifts given. Use what God gives you to be used even if there are exalted men who dominate and Lord over you and seek to control you in everything (which is wrong). Paul said "not that we have dominion over your faith". Peter said elders were not to be Lords over others.

6.Some just agree with all these things and are edified by it. But I would seek to provoke you to love in action and good works in action. Not to be a hearer of the word only, but to be a doer of the word.

 

[BelieveItOarKnot]

The real question on these general subjects is this:

Is the Gospel message always and only about "love" meaning edification?

Can we also think that God's speaking against the very evil we all bear is edifying?

I might think the latter is legitimate and edifying, even though it may seem contradictory on the surface

I think we can comfortably say that God is quite against the evil in everyone and that should be edifying, and not statements of scriptural fact that should be shunned or ran away from to only hide behind on the side of love and whining like little crybabies when the other side of the equations are trotted out

God doesn't love the evil in anyone, period. I'm actually ecstatic over that fact myself. It's never been a "one or the other" deal.

We really do have a love/hate relationship with God, that hatred being just as much due as any other soft sell love me only messages and angles

Do we still love God if He hates our evil? I'd suggest the evil in no one loves God and is a disingenuous untruthful hypocritical statement to claim it otherwise

Why can't we just be truthful, even knowing the evil within us all will not and can not be truthful?

It's a zero sum game in the final analysis

 

[DamianWarS]

God bless,

There is a word that is used many times in the New Testament, and it has a very important meaning and understanding. But sadly, today many are not walking in this today in many gatherings of the saints. That word is "edifying", or edification.

We see this word used in many areas, here is a few examples.

“How is it then, brethren? when ye come together, every one of you hath a psalm, hath a doctrine, hath a tongue, hath a revelation, hath an interpretation. Let all things be done unto edifying.” (1 Corinthians 14:26 KJV).

Notice that all the body can minister and edify one another in Christ. Not just one man called the pastor, or a few other elders.

"“Again, think ye that we excuse ourselves unto you? we speak before God in Christ: but we do all things, dearly beloved, for your edifying.” (2 Corinthians 12:19 KJV)

“Even so ye, forasmuch as ye are zealous of spiritual gifts, seek that ye may excel to the edifying of the church.”" (1 Corinthians 14;12 KJV).

Paul shows that they can do this and edify the church. He nowhere sets up a one man pastor over all with a "sermon", or man's order.

and this section specifically shows that Christ (who alone is the head of the church) works in every part of the body to edify the church. Can we take these things lightly and ignore them today? No,

"But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ: 16 From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love." *Ephesians 4:15m,16 KJV)

There we have such a wonderful spiritual and profound section of scripture that shows the inner working of Christ in the body working effectively in EVERY part to make the increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love. This is not always done among the saints. In fact it is rarely done in most gatherings. Instead a man made program is set up with a one man ministry over all called the pastor. Yes, there are pastor gifts, but not just pastor gifts (Ephesians 4:11,12) and the word edifying is used again among them, and not just with a pastor gift as we wrongly see everywhere today. Read Hebrews 13:20, 21 and see also that God is working in all believers through Christ unto every good work. This must be allowed to happen at all times. Believers are told in scripture to exhort one another, edify one another, pray for one another, teach one another, allow all gifts to manifest to one another etc. And we cannot say to one part we have no need of you ( 1 Cor 12).

The word edifying means;

οἰκοδομή oikodomḗ, oy-kod-om-ay'; feminine (abstract) of a compound of G3624 and the base of G1430; architecture, i.e. (concretely) a structure; figuratively, confirmation:—building, edify(-ication, -ing).

1. (the act of) building, building up
2. metaph. edifying, edification
   1. the act of one who promotes another's growth in Christian wisdom, piety, happiness, holines

So it means to build up as a house builder.

The church is the body of Christ and is also referred to as the house of God a spiritual house built up.

“Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.”" ( 1 Peter 2:5 KJV)

“But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end.”" (Hebrews 3:6 KJV)

This spiritual aspect is sadly missing in many gatherings today. This functioning of the church is how we edify one another as Christ works in us and we see the manifesting of the gifts of God in the church. This is a wonderful and important function of the church gathering. Without this we do not see the body being built up (edified) rightly or others using their gifts as good stewards . The Spirit can often be quenched in many gatherings if they hinder this edifying in Christ to one another whenever we come together in Christ.

Sadly, many have set up a one man pastor ministry over all and the entire body is silent and controlled strictly by the traditions of men and men's commands and by laws etc. This fights against the commands of Christ for the church (1 Cor 14:26-38).


This edifying ministers grace through Christ working in us directly and this is how we build up or edify one another. This is How Christ builds His church from within us. We also read;

“Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth, but that which is good to the use of edifying, that it may minister grace unto the hearers.”

We see that not only Paul spoke of this edifying which ministers grace as Christ works in all Peter also spoke of this,

"As every man hath received the gift, even so minister the same one to another, as good stewards of the manifold grace of God. 11 If any man speak, let him speak as the oracles of God; if any man minister, let him do it as of the ability which God giveth: that God in all things may be glorified through Jesus Christ, to whom be praise and dominion for ever and ever. Amen." (1 Peter 4:10, 11 KJV)

Notice that Peter speaks of "everyman" having gifts to be ministered to others. This is how the manifold grace of God is working in the church unto edifying. But to hinder this and not allow any to speak or manifest the gifts in Christ is dangerous and false and hinders the body.

Also we are commanded here to be good stewards of the gifts and grace of God. If God gives us a gift for the body and to help others and we sit there afraid to speak because of some commandments and man made traditions that make the word of God of no effect, then we are not obeying God or a good steward. There will be an account one day for these things if we are not faithful and if we do not use what God has given us. Paul said woe unto me if I preach not the gospel. Imagine Paul was in our time today w and walked into a gathering where all face the back of each other's heads and one man is exalted called the pastor over all and no one can minister freely the manifold gifts in the grace of God to edify one another as Christ works in them. What do you think Paul would do?. He would speak out and most likely be kicked out sadly.

God works in every believer to make us perfect unto EVERY GOOD WORK. That includes all ministry and gifts flowing from within by Christ working in us. So I exhort and encourage all who hear to be faithful stewards of the gifts and grace of God and to do all things unto edifying in the church as they gather. Do not seek to please men or fear men. If I should seek to please men I should not be the servant of Christ.

God bless, let's talk about these things and examine your gatherings if they walk in this grace and edification. Remember all things must be done unto "edifying". All things means all things.

If your gathering does not walk in these commands and direction of the Spirit in the church. I would suggest you try to speak to others in your gathering about this and if none will listen and the so-called "Pastor", (the one man over all who controls all things not biblically) tries to brow beat you or rebuke you and does not want to follow scripture and ignores you. Then bring another brother with you to try and help him and if he will not listen bring it before the church (Matthew 18). Sadly the command of Christ to bring things before the church and to hear the whole church is also not being done today and this is hindered again by the man made order and traditions and commandments and man made by laws of many churches, But we must walk in the truth as God has shown us and be good stewards.

If all else fails, find faithful brothers and sisters who will meet together with you in someone's home and wait on the Lord for ministry and gifts and pray and have a meal together, singing with grace in your hearts and let the word of Christ dwell in you richly teaching and admonishing one another.

and consider this seriously in prayer,

“Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye withdraw yourselves from every brother that walketh disorderly, and not after the tradition which he received of us.” (2 Thess. 3:6 KJV)

the modern large format church isn't a biblical model but a post-orgaized church phenomenon. It tends to focus all the attention on platformed leaders and turning them into spectacles and performers which then discourages other giftings within other members as well as unhealthy perspectives of these leaders. The system innately has an unbalanced focus that goes right down to the layout and design of the buildings. essentially mass seating all facing a focal point where we either parrot what's happening or sit and be quiet. Heaps of theological depth can be piled on so giftings that complement these systems are celebrated, but there is little room for relational depth and inter-bilateral positive impact (edification) since it's not structured for this and if it is, it's only in small quantities; it's a meeting point that depends on preexisting relationships to function for that small-talk interaction to be beneficial, otherwise, they are just going to be platitudinous that tends to be hollow with no depth and even can be counter-edifying

so it's a broken system and the pastor or leader is a part that system, and when you challenge the pastor they may take a defensive position. However I don't think the answer is to protest the system, but instead to work alongside of it; not to challenge it but to work harmoniously with it. A church service is a few hours of the week, but there are many hours of the week we may freely engage in inter-bilateral positive impact within a body of believers. it could be as simple of hosting a bbq or small group at your house with the purpose of allowing this free exchange of giftings more spirit-led than format/structurally-led. Often we point the finger at the leader wanting them to make the change, but not wanting to be the change ourselves. If you see a need, then perhaps it is us who are being called into meeting that need. I'll bet people could even get financial support if it's presented to the leadership of the church. Generally, they like to motivate individuals trying to create a change outside of the status quo and if they see a way they can support it, they will.

sure I get the Sunday service may feel like you can't challenge it but who cares? it has merit and is still beneficial. however, for a more balanced perspective of giftings, we shouldn't be thinking a one-size-fits-all service is ever going to accomplish this. start an outside church-service focus that can cater to the edification needs of the body of Christ that you see lacking so that when these Sunday events happen and people come together their relationship needs are already met and a quick hug or simple greeting has so much more depth then it used to have. it wouldn't likely have to be in a small format over the large format of the weekly service which means to cater to all, there needs to be several small format placements strategically placed throughout the body of believers. "church" is a building, is it a time slot, it is not the presence of a professional paid clergy. the church is the gathering of a body of believers for the purpose of edifying each other and growing while giving glory to God That can look like a thousand different things so don't try and force fit into a system where it will never fit. Be the change yourself, but in doing so don't cause disunity and division, instead work alongside of the existing church and its leaders.

 

[JulieB67]

the modern large format church isn't a biblical model but a post-orgaized church phenomenon.

I agree with this.

it has merit and is still beneficial.

It they teach and study God's word chapter by chapter and verse by verse I suppose there can be some merit. But I don't really see much merit in going to see a pastor that quotes a few verses out of the bible surrounded by a personal written sermon that only sends a person off with milk rather than the meat of God's word. Especially if all you're learning is some moral lesson followed by an altar call. (of which is stated if one already has the foundation of Christ they need to move past) I think it's more important to stick with what God's telling us rather than man. Many I believe leave it to their pastors to feed them properly and think that's all they need.

But I also believe like you said, we can edify the church in other ways outside of a building.

 

[DamianWarS]

I agree with this.

It they teach and study God's word chapter by chapter and verse by verse I suppose there can be some merit. But I don't really see much merit in going to see a pastor that quotes a few verses out of the bible surrounded by a personal written sermon that only sends a person off with milk rather than the meat of God's word. Especially if all you're learning is some moral lesson followed by an altar call. (of which is stated if one already has the foundation of Christ they need to move past) I think it's more important to stick with what God's telling us rather than man. Many I believe leave it to their pastors to feed them properly and think that's all they need.

But I also believe like you said, we can edify the church in other ways outside of a building.

indeed the system is broken catering to the superficial over depth (broadly speaking). the church building used to be the cultural hub of communities usually placed in the center and the tallest building around. Culture has moved from this model and the church building is no longer a cultural hub, yet the design and format of the church haven't changed, it's only gotten bigger. so because the building is no longer looked at as the cultural hub the church has become more superficial and thematic in its message to be more entertaining and attractional to a larger audience. I'm sure some have navigated this space more responsibly than others but I don't think it will ever work as the model is no longer relevant and needs to change with it.

I don't see protest of this system constructive, in a healthy community/body of Christ it can still have benefits but alone it is lacking. As much as we enjoy blaming these systems we are the body of Christ and don't need permission to edify each other outside of this system so in the end the responsibility lies upon us to be the church as effectively as we can. if a system is lacking then start a movement alongside this system so it can focus on the fullness of biblical values, but not in competition but in harmony.

 

[LoveofTruth]

indeed the system is broken catering to the superficial over depth (broadly speaking). the church building used to be the cultural hub of communities usually placed in the center and the tallest building around. Culture has moved from this model and the church building is no longer a cultural hub, yet the design and format of the church haven't changed, it's only gotten bigger. so because the building is no longer looked at as the cultural hub the church has become more superficial and thematic in its message to be more entertaining and attractional to a larger audience. I'm sure some have navigated this space more responsibly than others but I don't think it will ever work as the model is no longer relevant and needs to change with it.

I don't see protest of this system constructive, in a healthy community/body of Christ it can still have benefits but alone it is lacking. As much as we enjoy blaming these systems we are the body of Christ and don't need permission to edify each other outside of this system so in the end the responsibility lies upon us to be the church as effectively as we can. if a system is lacking then start a movement alongside this system so it can focus on the fullness of biblical values, but not in competition but in harmony.

Jesus, Paul, Peter and others soo see the importance of protesting and warning others of not walking in the spirit and edifying one another. There are many scriptures to show this

We are also told to withdraw from every brother that walkers disorderly and not according to the truth

The order is God's order in the spirit. God works in every believer to make them perfect in every good work through Jesus Christ (Hebrews 13:20,21). And Christ works effectually in the measure if every part to make increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love , Eph 4:10-16 . This was important enough to put in scripture so it’s important. Jesus also stands outside knocking in Laodicea in Revelation, and he will some them out of his mouth if they don’t let him into them to sup and participate with them.

The one place where believers should be allowed and free in Christ to edify and minister to each other is when they gather together. But this is where they are quenched hindered lorded over etc.

Remember to be a good steward of the grace and gifts we must minister to one another and walk in the spirit as Christ works in us.

1 Peter 4: 10. As every man hath received the gift, even so minister the same one to another, as good stewards of the manifold grace of God. 11. If any man speak, let him speak as the oracles of God; if any man minister, let him do it as of the ability which God giveth: that God in all things may be glorified through Jesus Christ, to whom be praise and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.”

And we must sharply rebuke those who teach for doctrines the commandments of men

Titus 1: 13. This witness is true. Wherefore rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith; 14. Not giving heed to Jewish fables, and commandments of men, that turn from the truth.”

But we must obey the commandment of the Lord

1 Corinthians 14: 26. How is it then, brethren? when ye come together, everyone of you hath a psalm, hath a doctrine, hath a tongue, hath a revelation, hath an interpretation. Let all things be done unto edifying. 27. If any man speak in an unknown tongue, let it be by two, or at the most by three, and that by course; and let one interpret… 30. If any thing be revealed to another that sitteth by, let the first hold his peace. 31. For ye may all prophesy one by one, that all may learn, and all may be comforted. ..33. For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints. ..37. If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord. 38. But if any man be ignorant, let him be ignorant.”

 

[DamianWarS]

Jesus, Paul, Peter and others soo see the importance of protesting and warning others of not walking in the spirit and edifying one another. There are many scriptures to show this

We are also told to withdraw from every brother that walkers disorderly and not according to the truth

The order is God's order in the spirit. God works in every believer to make them perfect in every good work through Jesus Christ (Hebrews 13:20,21). And Christ works effectually in the measure if every part to make increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love , Eph 4:10-16 . This was important enough to put in scripture so it’s important. Jesus also stands outside knocking in Laodicea in Revelation, and he will some them out of his mouth if they don’t let him into them to sup and participate with them.

The one place where believers should be allowed and free in Christ to edify and minister to each other is when they gather together. But this is where they are quenched hindered lorded over etc.

Remember to be a good steward of the grace and gifts we must minister to one another and walk in the spirit as Christ works in us.

1 Peter 4: 10. As every man hath received the gift, even so minister the same one to another, as good stewards of the manifold grace of God. 11. If any man speak, let him speak as the oracles of God; if any man minister, let him do it as of the ability which God giveth: that God in all things may be glorified through Jesus Christ, to whom be praise and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.”

And we must sharply rebuke those who teach for doctrines the commandments of men

Titus 1: 13. This witness is true. Wherefore rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith; 14. Not giving heed to Jewish fables, and commandments of men, that turn from the truth.”

But we must obey the commandment of the Lord

1 Corinthians 14: 26. How is it then, brethren? when ye come together, everyone of you hath a psalm, hath a doctrine, hath a tongue, hath a revelation, hath an interpretation. Let all things be done unto edifying. 27. If any man speak in an unknown tongue, let it be by two, or at the most by three, and that by course; and let one interpret… 30. If any thing be revealed to another that sitteth by, let the first hold his peace. 31. For ye may all prophesy one by one, that all may learn, and all may be comforted. ..33. For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints. ..37. If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord. 38. But if any man be ignorant, let him be ignorant.”

most people are not in the same place and may feel threatened through protest pitting groups against each other and this is something we should be avoiding. In the end, the institution is not the church, you and I are, if you think the institution has drifted to far one thing we don't need is another reformation but you can still be the change yourself. Anything spirit-led will bear fruit, it's part of the promises of being spirit-led.

 

[LoveofTruth]

most people are not in the same place and may feel threatened through protest pitting groups against each other and this is something we should be avoiding. In the end, the institution is not the church, you and I are, if you think the institution has drifted to far one thing we don't need is another reformation but you can still be the change yourself. Anything spirit-led will bear fruit, it's part of the promises of being spirit-led.

Hello and God bless.

Yes I have seen whole gatherings changed and the entire order changed to God’s order.

And I do believe another reformation is needed. Until then many many play church and sadly think all is well and that they are rich and increased with goods.

This warning is a serious one for today. None want Christ outside abd to be spewed out of his mouth.

Revelation 3: 16-20 “So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth. 17. Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked: 18. I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see. 19. As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent. 20. Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.”

If we see commands in scripture from God to allow body ministry and the very function of the church we must take this seriously as well. Or else as Paul write (as led by the Spirit) those who don’t acknowledge this are ignorant (not known or to be received). If we live the Lord we keep his commands.

So if we have clear scripture we must walk in that truth and not fear men or be avoiding the truth because it might cause sone discomfort to sone. The truth makes us free, but sadly some grow comfortable in bondage.

1 Corinthians 14: 26-38 “How is it then, brethren? when ye come together, everyone of you hath a psalm, hath a doctrine, hath a tongue, hath a revelation, hath an interpretation. Let all things be done unto edifying. 27. If any man speak in an unknown tongue, let it be by two, or at the most by three, and that by course; and let one interpret. 28. But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God. 29. Let the prophets speak two or three, and let the other judge. 30. If any thing be revealed to another that sitteth by, let the first hold his peace. 31. For ye may all prophesy one by one, that all may learn, and all may be comforted. 32. And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets. 33. For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints. 34. Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law. 35. And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church. 36. What? came the word of God out from you? or came it unto you only? 37. If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord. 38. But if any man be ignorant, let him be ignorant.”

2 Thessalonians 3: 6. Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye withdraw yourselves from every brother that walketh disorderly, and not after the tradition which he received of us.”

 

[Aaron112]

Why can't we just be truthful, even knowing the evil within us all will not and can not be truthful?

The rules of internet, including especially forums, don't allow being absolutely truthful, since the truth is hated by most of the world, and everything is for more numbers, more money, fake peace.

 

[Aaron112]

2 Thessalonians 3: 6. Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye withdraw yourselves from every brother that walketh disorderly, and not after the tradition which he received of us.”

Did not expect this place to place the quote below, but it fits.... well.

<small><small><small>Calvinism</small></small></small>

THE CALVINIST T. U. L. I. P. REFUTED BY SCRIPTURE INTRODUCTION : Calvinism is a man made philosophy depending on fallible human logic which ...

johnbaptisthenry.blogspot.com

Calvinism was never peace, joy, and righteous with the followers of Jesus , Jesus Himself or His disciples.


"THE CALVINIST
T. U. L. I. P.
REFUTED BY SCRIPTURE


INTRODUCTION: Calvinism is a man made philosophy depending on fallible human logic which total ignores many clear Scriptures, perverts many, and misuses others. Before John Calvin's time a less refined teaching was presented by another philosophical heretic, the Catholic Augustine.

Colossians 2:8: "Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ."

Here are some Scriptures that soundly refute the errors of the Calvinist TULIP:

T = TOTAL INABILITY (Called in Calvinism, Total Depravity, but actually taught as the Total Inability of man to choose Truth. The Calvinist plays many such word games. The Word of God teaches that God created man with the ability to reason, choose, and receive Truth.):

Ephesians 2:8: "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God."

Romans 10:17: "So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God."

James 1:21: "Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and RECEIVE with meekness the engrafted Word, which is able to save your souls."

Isaiah1:18-20: "Come now, and let us REASON together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool. IF YE BE WILLING and obedient, ye shall eat the good of the land: But IF YE REFUSE and rebel, ye shall be devoured with the sword: for the mouth of the LORD hath spoken it."

 

[DamianWarS]

And I do believe another reformation is needed. Until then many many play church and sadly think all is well and that they are rich and increased with goods.

it depends on how that protest is caused. every week there is probably someone factioning the church and having mini-reformation splitting off to their own mini group so they can focus on what they interpreted as better. we don't need more of that.

the beauty of the gospel is time, place and person are not important. This frees us up the practice of "church" outside of the institutional norms like Sunday morning at a big building with professional clergy and allow it to be mid-week, inside a home, with smaller groups and with no paid lead that is participant-led. this is closer to a model we see in acts. the letter to the Corinthians was not addressed to mega-church called "the Corinthian church" it was a letter to a house-church movement inside a city and the letter would be passed from meeting place to meeting place.

We prefer the big box version of church today but that model robs us of community because we don't live by these people so don't daily interact with them. Western culture has shifted to big box versions as a whole, no longer do we have a local butcher, hairdresser, fruit stand, plumber, etc... but instead the super centers and big box versions, the cultural watering hole of modern times, but the localized model has a focus on a small radius where all our needs are met within walking distance which creates a social echo system dependant upon each other.

culture has moved on and the institutional church is parroting our culture but if church was at your house and those who attended lived on your street no longer can you ignore your neighbours as it forces a social structure that we must engage in. all of a sudden we are helping each other out and looking out for each other regardless of their affiliation. better yet, don't even call it "church" the word "church" in greek is "ekklesia" and it means "called out ones" we can spiritualize it but in practice, it was a common word to call a gathering, a literal caller walking down the street calling out for people to gather for things like a town hall meeting. "church" in this sense can be a bbq, movie night, or birthday party. to make it an ekklesia of Christ we include teaching, edifying, praying, breaking bread, etc... not needed to be all at once but intentional focus to build each other up and grow using a biblical model contextualized through modern social norms. People may not call it "church" and they may still go to a Sunday church building too... but who cares? terminology is not the goal, the goal is a community that focuses on biblical values. If it is spirit-led then it will grow and its growth will implicitly contrast the institutional church and put pressure on it, no need to picket or boycott the church, just do church and the rest will speak for itself.

 

[BelieveItOarKnot]

The rules of internet, including especially forums, don't allow being absolutely truthful, since the truth is hated by most of the world, and everything is for more numbers, more money, fake peace.

True. Few are interested in traveling the road of scripture that gives complete credence to Jer. 17:9. Not that the disinterest or inability changes the fact

Quite startling when we consider that our own heart is deceptive, above all things. It's a big universe. The most deceptive things that exist are in us. Should be worthy study ground but everyone is naturally inclined to the "make me feel good" angles with a sprinkle of scare from time to time and not too often or too much of the latter.

I chalk it all up to the legitimacy of the meal we were all fed:

Psalm 74:14
Thou brakest the heads of leviathan in pieces, and gavest him to be meat to the people inhabiting the wilderness

 

[LoveofTruth]

it depends on how that protest is caused. every week there is probably someone factioning the church and having mini-reformation splitting off to their own mini group so they can focus on what they interpreted as better. we don't need more of that.

the beauty of the gospel is time, place and person are not important. This frees us up the practice of "church" outside of the institutional norms like Sunday morning at a big building with professional clergy and allow it to be mid-week, inside a home, with smaller groups and with no paid lead that is participant-led. this is closer to a model we see in acts. the letter to the Corinthians was not addressed to mega-church called "the Corinthian church" it was a letter to a house-church movement inside a city and the letter would be passed from meeting place to meeting place.

We prefer the big box version of church today but that model robs us of community because we don't live by these people so don't daily interact with them. Western culture has shifted to big box versions as a whole, no longer do we have a local butcher, hairdresser, fruit stand, plumber, etc... but instead the super centers and big box versions, the cultural watering hole of modern times, but the localized model has a focus on a small radius where all our needs are met within walking distance which creates a social echo system dependant upon each other.

culture has moved on and the institutional church is parroting our culture but if church was at your house and those who attended lived on your street no longer can you ignore your neighbours as it forces a social structure that we must engage in. all of a sudden we are helping each other out and looking out for each other regardless of their affiliation. better yet, don't even call it "church" the word "church" in greek is "ekklesia" and it means "called out ones" we can spiritualize it but in practice, it was a common word to call a gathering, a literal caller walking down the street calling out for people to gather for things like a town hall meeting. "church" in this sense can be a bbq, movie night, or birthday party. to make it an ekklesia of Christ we include teaching, edifying, praying, breaking bread, etc... not needed to be all at once but intentional focus to build each other up and grow using a biblical model contextualized through modern social norms. People may not call it "church" and they may still go to a Sunday church building too... but who cares? terminology is not the goal, the goal is a community that focuses on biblical values. If it is spirit-led then it will grow and its growth will implicitly contrast the institutional church and put pressure on it, no need to picket or boycott the church, just do church and the rest will speak for itself.

I helped to plant about 7 home meetings and it was wonderful. All came out of the man made religious forms that hinder body ministry and the very function of the church and where they were quenched in spirit by the one man lording over all and the false spirit quenching commandments of men that make the word of God of no effect.

We are commanded ti edify one another in Christ.

The very serious part of this is if Christ is standing outside knocking.

 

[DamianWarS]

I helped to plant about 7 home meetings and it was wonderful. All came out of the man made religious forms that hinder body ministry and the very function of the church and where they were quenched in spirit by the one man lording over all and the false spirit quenching commandments of men that make the word of God of no effect.

We are commanded ti edify one another in Christ.

The very serious part of this is if Christ is standing outside knocking.

If you are a part of a house-church movement of some sort then that's great but I don't agree with creating an "us" vs "them" culture. The mission of the church has internal and external focuses. Edifying is a useful way of looking at an internal focus and evangelism is a useful way of looking at the external focus. We can approach edification as a method to connect with other believers by partnering with them instead of working in competition with them. If one is Spirit-led and the other man-led there is no need to belabour the point as it should speak for itself. protest itself needs to be approach carefully so that we are not led by the flesh in those moments which itself can be be viewed as selfish, arrogant, prideful, competitive, etc... all that we don't want to associated with the gospel or recruit others under those fleshly desires.

Paul says in Phil. 1:18 "what does it matter? The important thing is that in every way, whether from false motives or true, Christ is preached. And because of this I rejoice."

John 13:35 says "By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another."

Gal 6:10 Therefore, as we have opportunity, let us do good to all people, especially to those who belong to the family of believers.

A surviving account of John through Jerome is quoted "The blessed John the Evangelist lived in Ephesus until extreme old age. His disciples could barely carry him to church and he could not muster the voice to speak many words. During individual gatherings he usually said nothing but, "Little children, love one another." The disciples and brothers in attendance, annoyed because they always heard the same words, finally said, "Teacher, why do you always say this?" He replied with a line worthy of John: "Because it is the Lord's commandment and if it alone is kept, it is sufficient."

The point is the spirit can speak and fight for himself and although we are still engaged in the mandate given to us by Christ we ourselves can do nothing to change a heart but a message through a lens of love is far better than a message through the lens of protest.

 

[LoveofTruth]

If you are a part of a house-church movement of some sort then that's great but I don't agree with creating an "us" vs "them" culture. The mission of the church has internal and external focuses. Edifying is a useful way of looking at an internal focus and evangelism is a useful way of looking at the external focus. We can approach edification as a method to connect with other believers by partnering with them instead of working in competition with them. If one is Spirit-led and the other man-led there is no need to belabour the point as it should speak for itself. protest itself needs to be approach carefully so that we are not led by the flesh in those moments which itself can be be viewed as selfish, arrogant, prideful, competitive, etc... all that we don't want to associated with the gospel or recruit others under those fleshly desires.

Paul says in Phil. 1:18 "what does it matter? The important thing is that in every way, whether from false motives or true, Christ is preached. And because of this I rejoice."

John 13:35 says "By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another."

Gal 6:10 Therefore, as we have opportunity, let us do good to all people, especially to those who belong to the family of believers.

A surviving account of John through Jerome is quoted "The blessed John the Evangelist lived in Ephesus until extreme old age. His disciples could barely carry him to church and he could not muster the voice to speak many words. During individual gatherings he usually said nothing but, "Little children, love one another." The disciples and brothers in attendance, annoyed because they always heard the same words, finally said, "Teacher, why do you always say this?" He replied with a line worthy of John: "Because it is the Lord's commandment and if it alone is kept, it is sufficient."

The point is the spirit can speak and fight for himself and although we are still engaged in the mandate given to us by Christ we ourselves can do nothing to change a heart but a message through a lens of love is far better than a message through the lens of protest.

I would have to say that if we really love one another in Christ we cannot help but edify one another to seek to build up one another and encourage one another and teach one another and all spiritual gifts given by God for this very loving purpose.

To not edify one another every time we gather especially on the Sunday gatherings, would be unloving as I understand and not allowing the spiritual life and ministry to build up ourself in Christ in love.

This body ministry (which is soo quenched and hindered in almost every gathering on the planet) is directly against love and hinders Christ working effectually on every part

We read this clearly here. Notice the edifying in LOVE part

Ephesians 4: 15. But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ: 16. From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.”

This is exactly what the Spirit of God”s is saying through Paul to the churches abd what I have been saying all along here.

But it seems sone are more worries about offending the religious deadness and spirit quenching, man made commandments than walking in Christ effectual working to build up eachother in love as we edify one another.

I cannot go against my conscience and clear scripture for it is not safe to do so, I don’t believe in man’s authority or man’s wisdom in the spiritual matters , here I stand God help me.

I believe Luther was right in a similar stance against most of the false religious system he was against in his day.

And we read many prophets and ministers standing against fajse religious firms in scripture. I could quote many if you are interested.

God bless

 

[DamianWarS]

I would have to say that if we really love one another in Christ we cannot help but edify one another to seek to build up one another and encourage one another and teach one another and all spiritual gifts given by God for this very loving purpose.

To not edify one another every time we gather especially on the Sunday gatherings, would be unloving as I understand and not allowing the spiritual life and ministry to build up ourself in Christ in love.

This body ministry (which is soo quenched and hindered in almost every gathering on the planet) is directly against love and hinders Christ working effectually on every part

We read this clearly here. Notice the edifying in LOVE part

Ephesians 4: 15. But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ: 16. From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.”

This is exactly what the Spirit of Gid is saying through Paul to the churches abd what I have been saying all along here.

But it seems sone are more worries about offending the religious deadness and spirit quenching, man made commandments than walking in Chrust effectual working to build up eachother in love as we edify one another.

I cannot go against my conscience and clear scripture for it is not safe to do so, I don’t believe in man’s authority or man’s wisdom in the spiritual matters , here I stand God help me.

I believe Luther was right in a similar stance against most of the false religious system he was against in his day.

And we read many prophets and ministers standing against fajse religious firms in scripture. I could quote many if you are interested.

God bless

the institution will always be an institution. my point is not to ignore it, certainly do something which it seems like you are through you're involvement in house church ministry. But we may still get along with others even if they are actively a part of these religious quenching systems in a way that edifies each other. this isn't the 15th century and you're not going to get far hammering your thesis statements to a church door except maybe a vandalizing charge. This also isn't the 1st century and writing letters to churches is only going to fall on deaf ears and there are no places where people gather in a public forums where you can call them out. Go ahead and get a soap box on a corner and have at it but that form of ministry usually is counter productive.

online forums like these are good areas to get out some of the discussion and challenge people but it can be hard to still break through indoctrination where people will actually listen. At least you have a platform here but in the real world it's harder. You need to build up years of respect in a community to be able to challenge these systems but by the time you've done that your character and experience are going to speak for themselves.

I wouldn't put a lot of energy into protest but instead influence people through these biblical values of edification that you seem so passionate about. I've see you used the language "especially on the Sunday gatherings" This tells me you still hang on to these traditional systems to a degree. There certainly is nothing wrong with Sunday gathering but in Christ every day is holy and there is no one day that is more holy (which would be a pagan value). So you should take that freedom to influence others outside of the Sunday norm. This way there is no competition with other services and more people can participate without feeling conflicted as to which church is right or not. People don't even need to label it as church, the label is not the point, the point is a focus on biblical values so even go out of your way to not use these Christian labels so as not to create comparison of which is better. these labels have lost their biblical meaning anyway (like church, pastor, bishop, deacon, etc... all common greek words (church = "called out ones", pastor = "shepherd", bishop = "administrator", deacon = "servant", etc...) they have lost their origins and become religious abstract titles. And don't make an "us and them" culture, who cares what they are doing, we don't need to dwell on the speck in others' eyes, focus on what you're doing, and the spirit-led difference will speak for itself.

 

[LoveofTruth]

the institution will always be an institution. my point is not to ignore it, certainly do something which it seems like you are through you're involvement in house church ministry. But we may still get along with others even if they are actively a part of these religious quenching systems in a way that edifies each other. this isn't the 15th century and you're not going to get far hammering your thesis statements to a church door except maybe a vandalizing charge. This also isn't the 1st century and writing letters to churches is only going to fall on deaf ears and there are no places where people gather in a public forums where you can call them out. Go ahead and get a soap box on a corner and have at it but that form of ministry usually is counter productive.

online forums like these are good areas to get out some of the discussion and challenge people but it can be hard to still break through indoctrination where people will actually listen. At least you have a platform here but in the real world it's harder. You need to build up years of respect in a community to be able to challenge these systems but by the time you've done that your character and experience are going to speak for themselves.

I wouldn't put a lot of energy into protest but instead influence people through these biblical values of edification that you seem so passionate about. I've see you used the language "especially on the Sunday gatherings" This tells me you still hang on to these traditional systems to a degree. There certainly is nothing wrong with Sunday gathering but in Christ every day is holy and there is no one day that is more holy (which would be a pagan value). So you should take that freedom to influence others outside of the Sunday norm. This way there is no competition with other services and more people can participate without feeling conflicted as to which church is right or not. People don't even need to label it as church, the label is not the point, the point is a focus on biblical values so even go out of your way to not use these Christian labels so as not to create comparison of which is better. these labels have lost their biblical meaning anyway (like church, pastor, bishop, deacon, etc... all common greek words (church = "called out ones", pastor = "shepherd", bishop = "administrator", deacon = "servant", etc...) they have lost their origins and become religious abstract titles. And don't make an "us and them" culture, who cares what they are doing, we don't need to dwell on the speck in others' eyes, focus on what you're doing, and the spirit-led difference will speak for itself.

I only referred to the Sunday gatherings, because that is the norm in many rekigious groups today. We met on Thursdays, Saturdays and Sundays at different times. We found that meeting often on a Sunday was good also because it was a day when many did not work and it showed commitment to the body and not to be drawn back into the man made forms dominated by the false one man pastor over a gathering and where the body is quenched and hindered.

And I have written letters to different groups and seen some good results. Sone haves left the religious system and gathered with the brothers and sisters, others went on to work together and begin other church meeting in homes .

I can attach one of these letters here if you are interested.


And yes, there are many true believers in many gatherings. It is not about them being saved but more about them growing up into Christ and edifying one another where Christ works in each part of the body unto the edifying of itself in love. But there are also unbelievers and many babes in Christ in these places that are in need of the truth abd to become part of a functioning body of Christ.

These things are vitally important, though I fear many will act as though they are not that important. This is all about Christ as the functioning head of the church and his effectual working in every part abd our growing up into him . Very important.

The very word “church” in Greek means “the called out assembly”. We are called out of darkness into Gods marvellous light, called out of the world into Christ and the body, called out of falsehoods into the truth called out of ma n made religion into the living functioning body of Christ .

How can we stop calling out believers from all things that would hurt them? Love compelled us to try to reach others.