Led by the Spirit versus led by the Word. (the Bible)

[sawdust]

You seem to be saying that we don't need the gifts of the Spirit now because we have the Bible, and that we don't need the Spirit to lead us today, because the Bible tells us to ask God for wisdom.

If that is what you got from all I have said then I must do a lousy job of conveying my thoughts.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

If it is causing harm to the congregation then there would be evidence. And if there is evidence the Pastor should deal quickly with the offender. He doesn't need a word of knowledge to see the obvious. I've heard of Pastors who had "a word of knowledge" as being the one's who caused harm to the congregation so I don't see how it is a thing to protect the congregation. On the other hand, sound doctrinal teaching will keep the wolves at the door. That way everyone "who has an ear" will see the liars and cheats.

People seem to forget that the Church entered a whole new way of living when it began. They needed words of knowledge and wisdom, they needed the apostles and prophets for they had no foundation in writing to instruct them. But we do have the whole counsel of God now and we have all the instruction we need written down. We just need Pastors who faithfully dedicate themselves to it's study so they can teach doctrine correctly. There are some out there but there are far too many false teachers out there as well.

The point I am making is that most of the time addiction to porn is not obvious because it is viewed in private, away from anyone else. There is no way that anyone can know except the Holy Spirit reveals it in order for it to be dealt with. We can get so tangled up in theory and what we have been taught that we miss the obvious. It has nothing to do with a pastor faithfully teaching sound doctrine. He could be doing that, while members of his church are engaging in secret sins that he knows nothing about. But God knows, and that is why many church services are sad and flat with no moving of the Holy Spirit at all. The children of Israel were defeated at Ai, because of just one man's greed, and no one knew about it until God supernatually revealed it to Joshua.

 

[sawdust]

The point I am making is that most of the time addiction to inappropriate content is not obvious because it is viewed in private, away from anyone else. There is no way that anyone can know except the Holy Spirit reveals it in order for it to be dealt with. We can get so tangled up in theory and what we have been taught that we miss the obvious. It has nothing to do with a pastor faithfully teaching sound doctrine. He could be doing that, while members of his church are engaging in secret sins that he knows nothing about. But God knows, and that is why many church services are sad and flat with no moving of the Holy Spirit at all. The children of Israel were defeated at Ai, because of just one man's greed, and no one knew about it until God supernatually revealed it to Joshua.

But the sin was obvious before God revealed the cause to Joshua. They became utter cowards before their enemy after confidently advising Joshua they could take Ai with only part of the army because the city was few in numbers.

So I don't see how your point can be valid.

no moving of the Holy Spirit at all.

?????? He's not there to dance for us you know.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

But the sin was obvious before God revealed the cause to Joshua. They became utter cowards before their enemy after confidently advising Joshua they could take Ai with only part of the army because the city was few in numbers.

So I don't see how your point can be valid.


?????? He's not there to dance for us you know.

Obvious to whom? Joshua didn't know what caused the defeat at Ai before God told him that there was sin in the camp. Oh dear. Joshua didn't open a copy of the Torah and have a verse jump out at him. How do you think God let Joshua know that there was sin in the camp? He TOLD him of course.

Or do you think that Joshua went to Caleb and said, "I sense in my spirit that there may be some reason why we failed. I have to do some Bible study and prayer to see if something becomes clearer." Is that what happened? NO! God spoke to him and said, "There is sin in the camp". How did Joshua find out it was Achan? He lined up each tribe, and God told him which tribe, then which family and then which person. Good grief! Don't you think that God has the ability to speak to people? Who do you think God is?

Next time you are in church, look around the various members, and see if you can pick out the ones who are addicted to illegal images on their home computer, who are putting money before Christ, who are closet homosexuals who haven't "come out" yet, who are having secret affairs, who are there enduring the one-hour service before they can get home to watch the golf on television. We had an elder in our church once who appeared to be totally sold out for Christ, regularly preached, and was part of the hard core of the church. But it was discovered that on Saturday night he was propositioning other males in the town's public toilet! No one knew until the police caught up with him. Then I realised why I found his preaching flat, devoid of life and franking boring! The church I went to at the time (late 1970s) believed in the gifts of the Spirit including the word of knowledge, but no one was able to get a word of knowledge about that elder, although there were plenty of words of knowledge about lesser things. Perhaps no one was able to believe that anyone could get a word of knowledge about the secret sin of an elder, or if God did speak to someone, they didn't have the faith to share it just in case they were wrong.

So, we can never know what goes in the secret lives of church members, and because of that, pastors and leaders have no answers as to why their church services are often flat and boring.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

You seem to be saying that we don't need the gifts of the Spirit now because we have the Bible, and that we don't need the Spirit to lead us today, because the Bible tells us to ask God for wisdom.

Perhaps the Holy Spirit does not lead many in our modern churches because many members are ignoring the command: "Thus says the Lord: Be holy, for I am holy."

 

[sawdust]

Obvious to whom? Joshua didn't know what caused the defeat at Ai before God told him that there was sin in the camp. Oh dear. Joshua didn't open a copy of the Torah and have a verse jump out at him. How do you think God let Joshua know that there was sin in the camp? He TOLD him of course.

Obvious to Joshua and the Elders that something was very wrong or do you think they did the following after every battle? They didn't need to know the specifics of the error to know there was an error.

Joshua 7:6
6 Then Joshua tore his clothes, and fell to the earth on his face before the ark of the Lord until evening, he and the elders of Israel; and they put dust on their heads.

The Lord wasn't suffering from a slow internet. He knew of the sin before they went into battle. You were trying to argue that words of knowledge were necessary to protect the congregation then proceeded to give a story that showed nothing of the sort. Your point was completely invalidated.

As for the rest of your post ... why on earth do you think the words of knowledge God gave in the early Church were about people's sin??

Pentecost started a new way of living. There was so much people did not know. No-one had ever been baptised in the Spirit before. The Spirit had never dwelt within a believers body before. No-one knew what it was to walk in Spirit or how it was meant to be done. Knowledge was needed.

I'll be perfectly honest with you. I find you to be disingenuous. You started our conversation with a hypothetical (supposedly) that we now find out is something you actually experienced. You couldn't even be candid about your own frustrations yet you think you should be trusted with the knowledge of other people's weaknesses and sin????

Come back when you have shown some level of trustworthiness. Good Day.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Obvious to Joshua and the Elders that something was very wrong or do you think they did the following after every battle? They didn't need to know the specifics of the error to know there was an error.

Joshua 7:6
6 Then Joshua tore his clothes, and fell to the earth on his face before the ark of the Lord until evening, he and the elders of Israel; and they put dust on their heads.

The Lord wasn't suffering from a slow internet. He knew of the sin before they went into battle. You were trying to argue that words of knowledge were necessary to protect the congregation then proceeded to give a story that showed nothing of the sort. Your point was completely invalidated.

As for the rest of your post ... why on earth do you think the words of knowledge God gave in the early Church were about people's sin??

Pentecost started a new way of living. There was so much people did not know. No-one had ever been baptised in the Spirit before. The Spirit had never dwelt within a believers body before. No-one knew what it was to walk in Spirit or how it was meant to be done. Knowledge was needed.

I'll be perfectly honest with you. I find you to be disingenuous. You started our conversation with a hypothetical (supposedly) that we now find out is something you actually experienced. You couldn't even be candid about your own frustrations yet you think you should be trusted with the knowledge of other people's weaknesses and sin????

Come back when you have shown some level of trustworthiness. Good Day.

I wonder if there is a prophet of the LORD who can contribute some truth in this thread.

 

[Saint Steven]

I wonder if there is a prophet of the LORD who can contribute some truth in this thread.

We should all be willing and available to be used as the Lord sees fit.

James 5:17 NIV
Elijah was a human being, even as we are. He prayed earnestly that it would not rain,
and it did not rain on the land for three and a half years.

1 Corinthians 14:3 NIV
But the one who prophesies speaks to people for their strengthening, encouraging and comfort.

1 Corinthians 14:31 NIV
For you can all prophesy in turn so that everyone may be instructed and encouraged.

1 Corinthians 14:39 NIV
Therefore, my brothers and sisters, be eager to prophesy, and do not forbid speaking in tongues.

 

[Saint Steven]

Perhaps the Holy Spirit does not lead many in our modern churches because many members are ignoring the command: "Thus says the Lord: Be holy, for I am holy."

Since God used Balaam's donkey, the bar for who can be used is set pretty low. - LOL

And...

Psalm 8:2 NIV
Through the praise of children and infants
you have established a stronghold against your enemies,
to silence the foe and the avenger.

 

[Strong in Him]

Since God used Balaam's donkey, the bar for who can be used is set pretty low. - LOL

God appointed a worm in Jonah - even lower.

 

[Saint Steven]

God appointed a worm in Jonah - even lower.

LOL --- What a great response. Thanks. Good one.
Then I imagine he could use ANY of us.

 

[GTW27]

I am having doubts about whether I am truly being led of the Spirit because people don't see that Jesus is real and are not convicted of sin when they meet up with me. If the Holy Spirit convicts of sin, righteousness and judgment to come, then if the Spirit is flowing out of my life, then that should happen. Perhaps I am just paddling around up to my ankles in the spiritual river, and maybe I should through prayer and the Word go deeper, up to my knees, my middle, or even start swimming.

Perhaps faith is a gift. And there are some gifts that need unwrapped. And once unwrapped, it is by faith, that one can swim out unto the deep. It is faith that leads to trust, and trust that leads to surrender. It has been said, "Jesus take the wheel" in a song. Most would have Jesus take the wheel, as long as they were able to be in the passenger seat. That way, they could still grab the wheel in tough or scary times. Faith, trust and surrender will lead one to the back seat, and allow Jesus to take the wheel whenever He wills. And Jesus said to Peter,"And now you will be taken to a place you do not want to go" With Jesus truly at the wheel, what would we see.

 

[sawdust]

We should all be willing and available to be used as the Lord sees fit.

I thought He was already doing that.

1 Corinthians 11:19
No doubt there have to be differences among you to show which of you have God’s approval.

 

[Saint Steven]

Saint Steven said:

We should all be willing and available to be used as the Lord sees fit.

I thought He was already doing that.

1 Corinthians 11:19
No doubt there have to be differences among you to show which of you have God’s approval.

Not about him.
Our sensitivity to what he is doing. And how we can partner with him.

I was addressing the "that's not my gift" problem.
Or completely missing what God would have us do because we aren't open to doing something different.
Imagine Moses turning to God at the Red Sea and saying, "Not sure how raising my staff is going to divide the waters."

Exodus 14:16 NIV
Raise your staff and stretch out your hand over the sea to divide the water so that the Israelites can go through the sea on dry ground.

 

[sawdust]

Saint Steven said:

We should all be willing and available to be used as the Lord sees fit.

Not about him.
Our sensitivity to what he is doing. And how we can partner with him.

I was addressing the "that's not my gift" problem.
Or completely missing what God would have us do because we aren't open to doing something different.
Imagine Moses turning to God at the Red Sea and saying, "Not sure how raising my staff is going to divide the waters."

Exodus 14:16 NIV
Raise your staff and stretch out your hand over the sea to divide the water so that the Israelites can go through the sea on dry ground.

Ah, I understood watchman1's original comment a different way which is why I didn't pick up your meaning.

Every time we speak of the Lord we are being prophetic if indeed we are speaking the truth.

Revelation 19:10

At this I fell at his feet to worship him. But he said to me, “Don’t do that! I am a fellow servant with you and with your brothers and sisters who hold to the testimony of Jesus. Worship God! For it is the Spirit of prophecy who bears testimony to Jesus.”

Hence, if we have God's approval the truth we speak is prophetic in itself and therefore either there is truth in what has been said or not. If someone came along and claimed to be a prophet would you take their word at face value anymore than mine or Strong's or Watchman1's? I hope not. I hope you would test him against the scriptures as you would test all things.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Ah, I understood watchman1's original comment a different way which is why I didn't pick up your meaning.

Every time we speak of the Lord we are being prophetic if indeed we are speaking the truth.

Revelation 19:10

At this I fell at his feet to worship him. But he said to me, “Don’t do that! I am a fellow servant with you and with your brothers and sisters who hold to the testimony of Jesus. Worship God! For it is the Spirit of prophecy who bears testimony to Jesus.”

Hence, if we have God's approval the truth we speak is prophetic in itself and therefore either there is truth in what has been said or not. If someone came along and claimed to be a prophet would you take their word at face value anymore than mine or Strong's or Watchman1's? I hope not. I hope you would test him against the scriptures as you would test all things.

Everything I saw whether here or from the pulpit at church needs to be rigorously tested by God's Word. I wouldn't have it any other way. Who am I anyway? Just a guy with the Bible seeking to instill faith in anyone who is willing to believe the Gospel of Christ.

 

[Saint Steven]

Every time we speak of the Lord we are being prophetic if indeed we are speaking the truth.

I use this for my working definition. Strengthening, encouragement and comfort.
Sorely lacking in the church today. (and the forum)

1 Corinthians 14:3 NIV
But the one who prophesies speaks to people for their strengthening, encouraging and comfort.

 

[LoveofTruth]

to fix the church roof.

the church is the body of Christ, not a physical building and there is no "roof" on the church. So scripture never tells us how to fix the so called "church roof". This is confusion to talk this way.

sadly

 

[LoveofTruth]

Obviously, we want both.
But I made a statement in another topic that being led by the Spirit is superior to being led by the Word.

Let's discuss. (play nice kids) Thanks.

So, I wanted to flesh that out a bit. Here's the quote below. Post #60.
Source: What is a successful (good) creation for God?


Here's the background info that "led" to this statement which preceded this quote.
Since it was a bit off-topic, I wanted to create its own topic.

Begin quote:
"The difference between being led by the Spirit and being led by the Word. (Bible)
This is dangerous territory, and I'm likely to ruffle some feathers. WWJD?

I have wanted to address the issue of Christians feeling "led" to do something with a scriptural defense.
Actually considered this originally while reading the Screwtape Letters, C.S. Lewis. (the toast)

The 'thing" they are being led to do seems innocent to them and they can easily defend it, both rationally and biblically.
So... what could go wrong? (plenty)

The problem is that we never know enough of the behind-the-scenes activity to make either a correct rational, or biblical-based, decision.
And we don't need to know. God knows.

Both the serpent in the garden and the Devil tempting Jesus in the wilderness used the Word to deceive.
But the enemy is unable to use the Spirit in that way. Best he can do is counterfeit it.
A fully developed spiritual discernment is the only antidote. IMHO"
- End quote
(add the quoted bit above to cap the statement)

A couple of scriptures to consider. (the Word) I know, I know...
Notice that being led by the Spirit (not the Word) produces the fruit of the Spirit.
Why does it come from the Spirit and not the Word?

Romans 8:14 NIV
For those who are led by the Spirit of God are the children of God.

Galatians 5:16-18, 22-23 NIV
So I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh.
17 For the flesh desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the flesh.
They are in conflict with each other, so that you are not to do whatever you want.
18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law. ... [19-21]
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,
23 gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law.

1 Corinthians 2:13 NIV
This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words
taught by the Spirit, explaining spiritual realities with Spirit-taught words.

Matthew 4:1 NIV
Then Jesus was led by the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted by the devil.

Acts 8:29, 39-40 NIV
29 The Spirit told Philip, “Go to that chariot and stay near it.” ...
39 When they came up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord suddenly took Philip away,
and the eunuch did not see him again, but went on his way rejoicing.
40 Philip, however, appeared at Azotus and traveled about,
preaching the gospel in all the towns until he reached Caesarea.

the title here is

"Led by the Spirit versus led by the Word. (the Bible)}​

obviously the Holy scriptures are not at odds or versing the Spirit.

No man knows the things of God but by the Spirit. Part of the problem is when men today, (and there are many of them, massive amounts in fact, and whole denominations of man that do not believe in hearing God's voice inwardly today or having the Spirit teach them. They trust in learning of languages and interpretations of natural learning and endless reading of commentaries and often only within their own man made denominations)

But Jesus said;

“It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.” (John 6:63)

"“Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.” (John 8:43)

“He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.” (John 8:47 KJV)

"And ye have not his word abiding in you: for whom he hath sent, him ye believe not. 39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me." (John 5:38,39 KJV)

 

[BelieveItOarKnot]

Obviously, we want both.
But I made a statement in another topic that being led by the Spirit is superior to being led by the Word.

Let's discuss. (play nice kids) Thanks.

I've see the above quite often over the years

Pitting God's Word against God's Spirit isn't good theology. I consider it a similar effort to dividing the trinity against itself. Another heretic gaffe.

It's never a one or the other deal and doesn't have to be.

The more startling news is, gasp, people can be wrong and go wrong using either methods or both methods. And neither the Spirit or the Word seems able or interested in correcting them.

So what's the point of the claim again exactly? If it's following by the Spirit, does the position really need any Word to justify it? Seems to be a bit of strange disconnect attempt.

Part of my disdain for such endeavors is having spent a considerable time in the charismatic realm, everybody hears from God all the time. Down to what they have and where they have lunch, and when and how they pick their nose.

The following the Spirit method is most commonly people just following their own imaginations, the stream of thoughts in their heads. Often very little to do with God. Another common thing is their theology is often horrific and very often misled and even heretical. And it's again, almost always a works based salvation position behind the curtains. The same thing that makes other cultists go door to door to "try to save people" so they can add to their own chances.