It is my contention that John 3:16 has been forever mistranslated....

[Charles Spurgeon]

What do I mean by this? Ever since the KJV, I believe that John 3:16 has been mistranslated and isn't correct... none of the current Bible have it right either because of everyone comes from an Arminian viewpoint.... the verse, and I kid you not, is Calvinistic to the core, if it is translated correctly...

Joh 3:16 οὕτω γὰρ ἡγάπησεν ὁ Θεὸς τὸν κόσμον, ὥστε τὸν υἱὸν αὐτοῦ τὸν μονογενῆ ἔδωκεν, ἵνα πᾶς ὁ πιστεύων εἰς αὐτὸν μὴ ἀπόληται, ἀλλ᾿ ἔχῃ ζωὴν αἰώνιον.

For in this way God loved the world, that he gave his only son, in order that all the believing ones in him not destroyed, but shall have life of the ages.

The whole contention really centers on the "whosoever believeth" as in everyone had a "free-choice" in the matter of choosing or rejecting Christ... but if you view the verse by comparing scripture with scripture, and knowing that Christ's redemption actually saved people, not merely made salvation possible then it makes sense.... the verse really is just saying all those believing in Christ are saved... it's not to be understood in the sense that "whosoever" can come, but that all those already believing are saved (because obviously they were chosen...)

Can I get a witness from another Calvinist that knows Greek better than I? I've had four semesters of Greek, but I'm rusty.

 

[Charles Spurgeon]

Understanding John 3:16 | Effectual Grace

 

[crimsonleaf]

I (with little knowledge of Greek) wholeheartedly agree. This was explained to me a couple of years ago, but even before I joined the reformed wing of the faith I never had trouble with it. It always seemed that the verse was talking about believer's salvation. The term "whosoever believes" I had always read as "whoever believes" and in English the two are interchangeable, let alone needing a Greek translation. "Whoever holds the winning lottery ticket is a rich man" does not apply to the whole world, but the holder of the winning ticket. I've never understood why it's such a big deal with Arninians.

whosoever [ˌhuːsəʊˈɛvə]pron an archaic or formal word for whoever

Free online dictionary. First thing in Google but I'll look further if required. "Whoever" here has 4 meanings and the forth can apply equally.

 

[Robert Pate]

What do I mean by this? Ever since the KJV, I believe that John 3:16 has been mistranslated and isn't correct... none of the current Bible have it right either because of everyone comes from an Arminian viewpoint.... the verse, and I kid you not, is Calvinistic to the core, if it is translated correctly...

Joh 3:16 οὕτω γὰρ ἡγάπησεν ὁ Θεὸς τὸν κόσμον, ὥστε τὸν υἱὸν αὐτοῦ τὸν μονογενῆ ἔδωκεν, ἵνα πᾶς ὁ πιστεύων εἰς αὐτὸν μὴ ἀπόληται, ἀλλ᾿ ἔχῃ ζωὴν αἰώνιον.

For in this way God loved the world, that he gave his only son, in order that all the believing ones in him not destroyed, but shall have life of the ages.

The whole contention really centers on the "whosoever believeth" as in everyone had a "free-choice" in the matter of choosing or rejecting Christ... but if you view the verse by comparing scripture with scripture, and knowing that Christ's redemption actually saved people, not merely made salvation possible then it makes sense.... the verse really is just saying all those believing in Christ are saved... it's not to be understood in the sense that "whosoever" can come, but that all those already believing are saved (because obviously they were chosen...)

Can I get a witness from another Calvinist that knows Greek better than I? I've had four semesters of Greek, but I'm rusty.

It is not just John 3:16. There are about 75 other scriptures that say God has provided salvation for ALL, EVERYONE, ANYONE, WHOSOEVER, THE WORLD.

And then there is 2 Corinthians 5:18, 19, that says God has reconciled the world unto himself.

What are you going to do about Hebrews 2:9 that says Jesus has tasted death for everyone.

Well, this should keep you busy for sometime.

 

[thegospelisgoodnews]

What do I mean by this? Ever since the KJV, I believe that John 3:16 has been mistranslated and isn't correct... none of the current Bible have it right either because of everyone comes from an Arminian viewpoint.... the verse, and I kid you not, is Calvinistic to the core, if it is translated correctly...

Joh 3:16 οὕτω γὰρ ἡγάπησεν ὁ Θεὸς τὸν κόσμον, ὥστε τὸν υἱὸν αὐτοῦ τὸν μονογενῆ ἔδωκεν, ἵνα πᾶς ὁ πιστεύων εἰς αὐτὸν μὴ ἀπόληται, ἀλλ᾿ ἔχῃ ζωὴν αἰώνιον.

For in this way God loved the world, that he gave his only son, in order that all the believing ones in him not destroyed, but shall have life of the ages.

The whole contention really centers on the "whosoever believeth" as in everyone had a "free-choice" in the matter of choosing or rejecting Christ... but if you view the verse by comparing scripture with scripture, and knowing that Christ's redemption actually saved people, not merely made salvation possible then it makes sense.... the verse really is just saying all those believing in Christ are saved... it's not to be understood in the sense that "whosoever" can come, but that all those already believing are saved (because obviously they were chosen...)

Can I get a witness from another Calvinist that knows Greek better than I? I've had four semesters of Greek, but I'm rusty.

well thats a good start!.....now there are a few more you will have to reinterpret to meet the theology and doctrine you hold so dear. abide in Christ and you will not be cut off, you really like carrying the shears and doing your own prunning, If someday you realize that both sides of this doctrinal issue are true, and neither one by itself is biblically sound, then you will be rightfully dividing the word of God. election and predestination are true, and free will is also true, but since we don't live outside of time this concept that Paul was a witnessed to in his visions and encounters with Christ, are above the norm in thinking, but we see in his teaching and preaching that it is very apparent he believed anyone could be saved, yet God already knows who will, and has already seen the end. this concept escapes our limited mind, as if God is waiting for time to conclude, God isn't bound by any concepts of what we know of time where God is there is no time, He neither has beginning or end, thats why from the foundation of time He already knows the end.

 

[crimsonleaf]

I suppose it boils down to a couple of fundementals:

1. Does God offer salvation to all and wait for their decision to reject him?
2. Does Jesus' death atone for the sins of the whole world?

If the answer to No1 is yes, then who's in charge?



If the answer to No2 is yes, then how many of God's redeemed people are in Hell?


But I don't want to hijack Mt Spurgeon's thread as you seem to agree with him already. Unless you're seriously looking to redefine "whosoever" or "whoever".

 

[cygnusx1]

The Greek looks very clear and decisive .

BB Warfield explained the problem with the Arminian interpretation as ' God's Love being infinite CANNOT be measured by a finite number of men " ....

I think there are serious issues with every proof text offered by Arminians , if we take their view seriously then everyone is reconciled , and everyone died with Christ and is raised with Christ . Furthermore , in the Arminian scheema Christ can not return , seeing as He knows His return will end the possibility of many being saved .

 

[cygnusx1]

First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thankgivings be made for all men, for kings and all who are in high positions, that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life, godly and respectful in every way. This is good and it is acceptable in the sight of God our Savior who desires all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. 1 Timothy, chapter 2, verses 1-4






Here we have the classic text that is used to show God wills the salvation of everyone!

but let us look again at this text.

who are we to pray for ?

"all men"

so the relationship of prayer to salvation is as extensive as God's will that all men are saved ........ ie , we should pray for "all men" for God desires "all men" to be saved.

supposing for a moment that "all men" means every single person who ever lived or who will ever live :


Now , upon what evidence is there that God wills the salvation of all men ?

And upon what evidence is there that we should pray for all men ?


If there is no evidence to show that we should pray for every single sinner then , there is no evidence that God will's the salvation of every single sinner.......

you may say , ''ah yes , but we cannot PROVE it means every single sinner , but we have no reason to ASSUME it doesn't mean every single sinner'' .......

really!

Is there not in the sacred scriptures a forbidding of prayer for Apostates ?




Jer.14:11-12. "Then said the Lord unto me, Pray not for this people for their good. When they fast, I will not hear their cry; and when they offer burnt offering and an oblation, I will not accept them: but I will consume them by the sword, and by the famine and by the pestilence."


1Jn.5:16. "If a man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it."


Conclusion: then if we are forbidden to pray for Apostates then "all men" cannot mean every single human who ever lived!

All this shows that God does not will the salvation of every sinner ........ He may delight in salvation , He may desire that sinners are saved , He may take no delight in the death of the wicked , and still not plan to save everyone!


But you say God wishes the salvation of all men ......... but forbids prayer for Apostates !!!

How are men to be saved without intercession ?

I am alive here today , saved by God's Grace because of Christ's intercession .

Take Peter , what stopped him from doing a Judas , going out and hanging himself after denying that he even knew Jesus ......... ?

Christ's intercession!

But there are people who are in a place beyond intercession ..........

Then said the LORD unto me, Though Moses and Samuel stood before me, yet my mind could not be toward this people: cast them out of my sight, and let them go forth. (KJV) Jer 15:1

 

[eric89]

I suppose it boils down to a couple of fundementals:

1. Does God offer salvation to all and wait for their decision to reject him?
2. Does Jesus' death atone for the sins of the whole world?

If the answer to No1 is yes, then who's in charge?



If the answer to No2 is yes, then how many of God's redeemed people are in Hell?


But I don't want to hijack Mt Spurgeon's thread as you seem to agree with him already. Unless you're seriously looking to redefine "whosoever" or "whoever".

Why stack the deck. Post 5 above shows where you are.

Also se below. I have reposted it to show that forcing to wrong outcomes is a waste of bandwidth.

"2 Then the LORD God said, Behold, the man has become like one of Us, to know good and evil. And now, lest he put out his hand and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live forever 23 therefore the LORD God sent him out of the garden of Eden to till the ground from which he was taken. 24 So He drove out the man; and He placed cherubim at the east of the garden of Eden, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to guard the way to the tree of life. (NKJV)

Ray Steadman again, "God seems to have drastically changed his attitude, hasn't he? He had just accepted Adam and Eve, dressed in the new clothing which he himself had provided, and suddenly now he banishes them from his presence, drives them out, slams and locks the door behind them, and sets a guard in the path to keep them from coming back in. Is there not something wrong here?

If we read this passage that way, we have surely misread it. It is important that we note carefully exactly what it does say. Notice that Verse 22 is one of the few unfinished sentences in the Bible. God acknowledges that man has fallen into a condition of self-centeredness. He says, "the man has now become like one of us." Man knows good and evil by relating it to himself. This is the basic problem with mankind. We have no right to know good and evil by relating it to ourselves, but that is what we do all the time. It is recorded in the book of Judges: "Every man did that which was right in his own eyes," (Judges 17:6, 21:25). That is the formula for anarchy. It means we are relating and judging everything by the way it appears to us. This is the way God does it, for he is the measure of all things, but it is wrong for man. God acknowledges this condition and, having done so, he now faces the problem of the other tree in the garden:

This is not the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, now, but the tree of life. God says, "What if man, doomed now to guilt, shame, limitation and loss, should now reach forth his hand and take and eat of the tree of life, and live forever." It would mean that man would never physically die but would go on in his evil condition forever. Notice that God leaves the sentence hanging in the air as though the result is too terrible to describe. What if man should do this? Then God's loving solution follows. He says, "Drive him out, cast him out of the garden, and put at the gate of Eden the cherubim [throughout the rest of Scripture cherubim appear; these are what we might call angelic animals, related to the holiness of God] and a flaming sword which turns every way [but now notice] to guard the way to the tree of life." It does not say. "to keep men from coming to the tree of life." That is not what the barrier is for. It is to guard the way to the tree of life, so that men come the right way and not the wrong."

 

[eric89]

Here are some words from Calvinist Ray Steadman

"

....Dr. James Torrance, who is Professor of Theology at St. Andrews in Aberdeen, Scotland. He is a great student of Calvin. I was pleased that he indicated Calvin really never did teach what is known as Limited Atonement, that it was more his followers’ teaching.

One of the reasons for that is the way it deals with the love of God. The well-known verse, John 3:16, says, “God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son.” That means God loves everybody, and that is the reason for his working out this amazing plan of redemption. This is borne out by John’s statement in his first letter: Godis Love. If you pursue Limited Atonement far enough, you will have to say that since God loves the elect, he does not therefore love the non-elect. And if he does not love the non-elect, he does not love everybody.

Jonathan Edwards, a great New England scholar, and John Owens, one of the great Puritan fathers, taught that God actually did not love everybody, and made statements to the effect that God cannot be love because he does not love everyone. That runs counter to the Apostle John, doesn’t it. This is the problem with Limited Atonement. But when you see that God made provisions for everybody’s salvation through Christ, but requires a personal response to receive it, then you can no longer view the atonement as limited, since it is unlimited in its possibilities. It is limited only by the unwillingness of people to receive it, or willingness to reject it.
"

Concerning Redemption | 2 Corinthians 5:17-19 | RayStedman.org

 

[Tzaousios]

Why not ask a Greek CF member e,g Philotel. I suspect it is because it would not be what you want to hear.

What if Philothei was to explain to you about the necessity of the sacraments and ascetical piety in Eastern Orthodoxy towards salvation? Would that be what you want to hear?

 

[eric89]

What if Philothei was to explain to you about the necessity of the sacraments and ascetical piety in Eastern Orthodoxy towards salvation? Would that be what you want to hear?

Uha - we have talked on that.

 

[Harry3142]

Moses describes in this way the righteousness that is by the law: "The man who does these things will live by them." But the righteousness that is by faith says: "Do not say in your heart, 'Who will ascend into heaven?' " (that is, to bring Christ down) "or 'Who will descend into the deep?' " (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead). But what does it say? "The word is near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart," that is, the word of faith we are proclaiming: That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved. As the Scripture says, "Anyone who trusts in him will never be put to shame." For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile - the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, for, "Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved." (Romans 10:5-13,NIV)

To accept this as applicable to each of us personally is to attain the salvation that God in his mercy has earned for us. There are no exclusions and no limitations as to who may accept this salvation; it is free to all who choose to accept it.

 

[Tzaousios]

Uha - we have talked on that.

Despite this claim, the rest of us are not privy to the details of that conversation. Can you answer my question?

 

[Kristos]

pist-, dik-, zoe- that's all the greek you need to know

 

[crimsonleaf]

Here are some words from Calvinist Ray Steadman

"

....Dr. James Torrance, who is Professor of Theology at St. Andrews in Aberdeen, Scotland. He is a great student of Calvin. I was pleased that he indicated Calvin really never did teach what is known as Limited Atonement, that it was more his followers’ teaching.

One of the reasons for that is the way it deals with the love of God. The well-known verse, John 3:16, says, “God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son.” That means God loves everybody, and that is the reason for his working out this amazing plan of redemption. This is borne out by John’s statement in his first letter: Godis Love. If you pursue Limited Atonement far enough, you will have to say that since God loves the elect, he does not therefore love the non-elect. And if he does not love the non-elect, he does not love everybody.

Jonathan Edwards, a great New England scholar, and John Owens, one of the great Puritan fathers, taught that God actually did not love everybody, and made statements to the effect that God cannot be love because he does not love everyone. That runs counter to the Apostle John, doesn’t it. This is the problem with Limited Atonement. But when you see that God made provisions for everybody’s salvation through Christ, but requires a personal response to receive it, then you can no longer view the atonement as limited, since it is unlimited in its possibilities. It is limited only by the unwillingness of people to receive it, or willingness to reject it.
"

Concerning Redemption | 2 Corinthians 5:17-19 | RayStedman.org

I love Newcastle. I love the Costa Del Sol. I invited everyone to a party. The whole world knows Billy Graham is an evangelist. Everybody loves Ben and Gerry's. I have the whole world in my hand. I'll tell the whole world how I love you. Shall I continue?

 

[crimsonleaf]

Why stack the deck. Post 5 above shows where you are.

Also se below. I have reposted it to show that forcing to wrong outcomes is a waste of bandwidth.

"2 Then the LORD God said, Behold, the man has become like one of Us, to know good and evil. And now, lest he put out his hand and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live forever 23 therefore the LORD God sent him out of the garden of Eden to till the ground from which he was taken. 24 So He drove out the man; and He placed cherubim at the east of the garden of Eden, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to guard the way to the tree of life. (NKJV)

Ray Steadman again, "God seems to have drastically changed his attitude, hasn't he? He had just accepted Adam and Eve, dressed in the new clothing which he himself had provided, and suddenly now he banishes them from his presence, drives them out, slams and locks the door behind them, and sets a guard in the path to keep them from coming back in. Is there not something wrong here?

If we read this passage that way, we have surely misread it. It is important that we note carefully exactly what it does say. Notice that Verse 22 is one of the few unfinished sentences in the Bible. God acknowledges that man has fallen into a condition of self-centeredness. He says, "the man has now become like one of us." Man knows good and evil by relating it to himself. This is the basic problem with mankind. We have no right to know good and evil by relating it to ourselves, but that is what we do all the time. It is recorded in the book of Judges: "Every man did that which was right in his own eyes," (Judges 17:6, 21:25). That is the formula for anarchy. It means we are relating and judging everything by the way it appears to us. This is the way God does it, for he is the measure of all things, but it is wrong for man. God acknowledges this condition and, having done so, he now faces the problem of the other tree in the garden:

This is not the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, now, but the tree of life. God says, "What if man, doomed now to guilt, shame, limitation and loss, should now reach forth his hand and take and eat of the tree of life, and live forever." It would mean that man would never physically die but would go on in his evil condition forever. Notice that God leaves the sentence hanging in the air as though the result is too terrible to describe. What if man should do this? Then God's loving solution follows. He says, "Drive him out, cast him out of the garden, and put at the gate of Eden the cherubim [throughout the rest of Scripture cherubim appear; these are what we might call angelic animals, related to the holiness of God] and a flaming sword which turns every way [but now notice] to guard the way to the tree of life." It does not say. "to keep men from coming to the tree of life." That is not what the barrier is for. It is to guard the way to the tree of life, so that men come the right way and not the wrong."

Is any of that an answer to my two questions? Try a simple answer.

 

[Kristos]

I suppose it boils down to a couple of fundementals:

1. Does God offer salvation to all and wait for their decision to reject him?
2. Does Jesus' death atone for the sins of the whole world?

If the answer to No1 is yes, then who's in charge?



If the answer to No2 is yes, then how many of God's redeemed people are in Hell?


But I don't want to hijack Mt Spurgeon's thread as you seem to agree with him already. Unless you're seriously looking to redefine "whosoever" or "whoever".

No & No.

 

[eric89]

Despite this claim, the rest of us are not privy to the details of that conversation. Can you answer my question?

My point was why not ask a Greek expert on Greek language.

 

[cygnusx1]

No & No.

is that no to universalism as well ?