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I disagree. In a prior post, you said,YahwehisHisname said:Doesn't amaze me at all. Truth is never popular. I have been told the same thing, yet not one person in this entire forum can show one single error in my posts.
To which I replied,YahwehisHisname said:If a Christian goes and kills someone today, they have absolutely zero scriptural support and one can not find one verse in the Bible to condone this behavior. If I'm wrong, show me
Now, whether or not you or I believe the quoted scripture actually supports their actions is inconsequential. You ask those people what motivates them to kill and support killers, and they will point to the scripture. It is the same with Muslim terrorists; they point to the Koran for their justification, yet the majority of Muslims maintain the terrorists are misapplying the teachings of Mohammad (pbuh) and/or taking them out of context.Druweid said:Check out armyofgod.com ... they advocate murder, lionize the murderers of innocent people, and justify it all by the scriptures.
Subjective and inflammatory. I don't proclaim you as being hateful, but I believe that you might be. I think that, not for "stating facts," but for painting with such a wide brush, and expressing your disdain with such vigor. I imagine others may feel the same. Rhetoric may be fine for expressing opinions, but let's maintain some objectivity as well.YahwehisHisname said:I state facts, and people don't like it so it is I who am hateful.
You're absolutely right, I have not read one shred of the texts in question. I would still maintain my opinions based on the actions of 99.9% of Muslims in this world who have never committed an act of terrorism.YahwehisHisname said:Problem is,... they have never read one page of Islam's oldest sources and still feel they can comment intelligently on them.
If it is that simple, then please, show me any demonstrable, empirical evidence that clearly indicates that terrorism is supported by anything more than one tenth of one percent of Muslims in this world. Specifically, not by your interpretation of their religious texts, but by their actions.YahwehisHisname said:Muslims know what the sources say and choose to be deceitful. It is what they are ordered to do by their religion. We, being ignorant fools, fall for it. It's as simple as that.
Well there it is, in the proverbial nutshell, isn't it? This isn't really about terrorism, or killing, or scriptual interpretation, is it? This is because they're not Christians, period. Everything else has been little more than rationalization.YahwehisHisname said:I would stop posting if they would stop lying. I could very easily start threads destroying Islam, one after another, but I just desire truth. I present facts, I present evidence 10 times over from the very Islamic books they should be reading, and I am countered with opinion. I attack the religion responsible for damning billions of souls, and they come back with an attack against me personally. And then it is I who am labeled hateful.
You honestly believe any of this is funny??YahwehisHisname said:Kinda comical if you look at it in the right light.
You would see the stark difference between a Chrsitian like YIHN and Muslims. YIHN would have no hesitation to label a person 'Christian' or 'non Christian' as if he was given the autonomy to point and choose who is going to heaven and who is bound to hell. Muslims, on the other hand, are more cautious in labelling a person as 'non-Muslim' as who is preceived to go to heaven or hell is purely God to decide.YahwehisHisname said:The difference is so clear, it is painful.
Crusaders were not Christians. I proved this several times but people like alangurvey choose to post ignorance anyway. As shocking as this may be to some, there is nothing in the Bible that says to kill black people and burn crosses on their yard. KKK aren't "Christians" either. There is nothing that says to kill abortion doctors as they go to work like a few nuts did years back. Sorry to disappoint you God haters but they aren't "Christians" either. And believe it or not, Tim McViegh didn't get inspiration from Yahuweh's scriptures either. Does anyone care to give me just one single open ended killing order from the Bible? Anyone here know of a command to kill more recent than 3200 years ago in the Bible? When was the last time some innocent human heard "Yahuweh is greatest" as their last words? Guess what you will hear last if you are beheaded....or flew into the buildings on 9-11? Allahu akbar. Exactly. Now here are Islam's prime sources: the Sira (biography), Ta'rikh (history), Hadith (report), or Qur'an (recital). Pick up, and read! Shed your ignorance about Islam. Good Muslims (we cal them terrorists), are following their religion to a tee. They not only follow the desires of their demented god, they are following the example of their prophet, p e r f e c t l y ! This is fundamental Islam in action. Get use to it. It " Must stay awhile"( as John informs us)
Druweid said:You're absolutely right, I have not read one shred of the texts in question.
Islam_mulia said:You would see the stark difference between a Chrsitian like YIHN and Muslims.
I do not call myself a Christian. First error.
YIHN would have no hesitation to label a person 'Christian' or 'non Christian'
Have never done this and you can't supply evidence for your statement. Error # 2
as if he was given the autonomy to point and choose who is going to heaven and who is bound to hell.
I refute, condemn and judge a persons words. Yahuweh judges souls. I have never taken any other position than this, and once again you will not give a shred of proof to support your slanderous statement(error # 3). I attack your religion(with facts), and I attack your statements. You attack me personally. There is a difference. It's amazing to me, still, how neutral parties don't see this.
Druweid said:If it is that simple, then please, show me any demonstrable, empirical evidence that clearly indicates that terrorism is supported by anything more than one tenth of one percent of Muslims in this world. Specifically, not by your interpretation of their religious texts, but by their actions.
While not all Muslims are terrorists, virtually all terrorists are Muslims. This should tell us something about Islam. According to independent surveys, eighty-five percent of terrorist acts worldwide are directly attributable to the Islamic faith. Yet Muslims represent less than twenty percent of the worlds population. Since the militants are called a radical minority lets say that only twenty percent of Muslims are jihad fighters in Allahs Cause. If thats true, four percent of the worlds population takes Islam seriously. One out of twenty-five humans emulate Muhammad's example and follow Allahs orders as revealed in the Quran and Hadith. These men and women are 2,000% more lethal than the rest of us. Do the math.
Well there it is, in the proverbial nutshell, isn't it? This isn't really about terrorism, or killing, or scriptual interpretation, is it? This is because they're not Christians, period.
It absolutely is about killing and terrorism. I am not interested in coverting anyone.
And which is that? Could it be the same accusation of the Prophet without giving any evidence whatsoever? I have yet to meet a Christian that acts so much like you, betraying even the advice of your Lord.YahwehisHisname said:Nice to see you pipe in Islam Mulia. It seems whenever I ask a tough question you disappear.
Why don't you go and talk to some Middle-Eastern people about how they feel about the US and other countries that are hated by many Middle Eastern nations. Most will be straight forward and honest if you are not hostile with them. Also read some of the terrorist websites, they constantly repeat over and over why they dislike the US, it has nothing to do with "freedom".neilius73 said:I suppose its a case of extremism V's extremism.
Truth of the matter is that people in the middle-east are not normal thinking people. They hate the west and yet crave the freedoms that we enjoy here.
They do and anyone that goes to a real Masjid hears the message of peace, they hear people denouncing the attacks, discouraging the youth from following in the footsteps of of those who do wrong, and encouraging parents to make sure their teenagers who rarely attend real religious instruction to participate instead of getting their material from online hate sites that encourage Jihad.neilius73 said:Nobody is perfect. But why dont the Islamic community stand up to these nutters (extremists) that are tarnishing the name of Islam?
I hope more of that is made public and is extremely encouraging.BibleMadeMeDoIt said:They do and anyone that goes to a real Masjid hears the message of peace, they hear people denouncing the attacks, discouraging the youth from following in the footsteps of of those who do wrong, and encouraging parents to make sure their teenagers who rarely attend real religious instruction to participate instead of getting their material from online hate sites that encourage Jihad.
To a fault, on that you can depend.YahwehisHisname said:At least you are honest
I though I was quite clear on this in my previous post. I may not know the scripture as well as you, nonetheless, you and I both clearly know it's out of context.YahwehisHisname said:As far as your link, I did just go there and the first thing one will see is Psalm 106 ripped from context.
Okay, let's hold it right there, and talk just about that statement for a moment.YahwehisHisname said:While not all Muslims are terrorists, virtually all terrorists are Muslims. This should tell us something about Islam.
Now, that may be true, but statistics can be influenced to say just about anything you want them to say. 14% of all people know that.YahwehisHisname said:According to independent surveys, eighty-five percent of terrorist acts worldwide are directly attributable to the Islamic faith.
According to adherents.com, 21% of the world considers themselves Muslim.YahwehisHisname said:Yet Muslims represent less than twenty percent of the worlds population.
That's a mighty hefty number to be pulling out of thin air! Please, put something substantial behind that if you intend to base future debate on it.YahwehisHisname said:Since the militants are called a radical minority lets say that only twenty percent of Muslims are jihad fighters in Allahs Cause.
Okay, let's do the math. According to your numbers, there are 260 million Muslims who "follow Allahs orders as revealed in the Quran." That would also mean that there are slightly over one billion Muslims who, by your interpretation, are practicing Islam incorrectly. So, now the question of questions.YahwehisHisname said:If thats true, four percent of the worlds population takes Islam seriously. One out of twenty-five humans emulate Muhammad's example and follow Allahs orders as revealed in the Quran and Hadith. These men and women are 2,000% more lethal than the rest of us. Do the math.
I never said anything about converting. It's about having already condemned Muslims for not being Christian. You said it yourself:YahwehisHisname said:It absolutely is about killing and terrorism. I am not interested in coverting anyone.
That makes it abundantly clear to me that you will condemn Muslims by any means necessary, but your primary motivation is a conflict in religious ideology.YahwehisHisname said:I attack the religion responsible for damning billions of souls
Druweid said:Okay, let's hold it right there, and talk just about that statement for a moment.
At face value, I do not deny that it appears that "virtually all terrorists ar Muslims." I don't possess enough knowledge to dispute that intelligently. However, I do know there are contributing factors to that statement that should be given due consideration to maintain a fair perspective.
First, there was a time, not so very long ago, when terrorists could be found from a large variety of backgrounds, such as Nazi's, Viet Cong, or the IRA. Today, great advancements have been made toward establishing peace between peoples of differing ideals. So in part, the increasing percentage of terrorists being Muslim may be due to the decrease of terrorists as a whole.
The dogmas that caused them were destroyed and thus things like Nazism ended. Killing Bin Laden, Saddam Hussein, Al Zarqawi, etc. will do nothing. They are symptoms of the source. We must attack the doctrine that inspires them. Had we waged an attacked on blitzkriegers, or Kamikaze's, we would still be at war. Think about it. Terror is a tactic, not a foe.
Second, the term "terrorist" is being somewhat selectively applied, and usually for political reasons. Why aren't the Ku Klux Klan considered terrorists?
I say they are. But again, once the dogma was exposed, the KKK was dismantled. It didn't take long either. Sure, there are remnants but they are inconsequential, and viewed as...... well, you know how they are viewed. Not very popular folks.
The Somalian Mooryaan?
Islam is the state religion. They are Sunni Muslims acting just like Muhammed when they are killing men, and children, stealing property and raping women. They are ordered to follow their prophets(he wasn't one) example and these Muslims know his example very well apparently.
The ETA Basque?
They target politicians, and they do not have a doctrine that calls for the death of certain people. The experts say that Basque-Americans do not provide financial support, weapons, or political support for ETA, and most people have never heard of them or had their lives effected by their actions. They do commit terrorists acts, and should be halted, and I think they are. Hasn't the "war on terror" stopped their funding as well? Froze assets? I think it has. I admitted that there are always exceptions, and you can name those few if you'd like but that doesn't changed the fact that 90% of worldwide terror is linked to Islam, and that should be alarming.
It seems to me a large gray area exists between those groups who commit violence, and those who are called terrorists.
Third, not all terrorists who are Muslim are committing violence in the name of Islam. There are Nationalist, Separatist, and a few Marxist-Leninist groups who are motivated by purely secular reasons.
I am not aware of this.
So ultimately, a resounding "No," I do not accept that statement, "virtually all terrorists are Muslims" as being a proper reflection of Islam.
90% of worldwide terror comes from 20% of the population- Islam.
Now, that may be true, but statistics can be influenced to say just about anything you want them to say. 14% of all people know that.
Seriously, though, my sources say something closer to 58% - 62%, but I choose to not dispute that number until further evidence more clearly dictates otherwise.
According to adherents.com, 21% of the world considers themselves Muslim.
That's a mighty hefty number to be pulling out of thin air! Please, put something substantial behind that if you intend to base future debate on it.
2 out of 10 is a "minority" but if you'd like to lower the number, fine. But you can still do the math and find it unacceptable. Did you know that Muslims represented less than three percent of the Meccan population during Muhammad’s day and yet they conquered the Quraysh, stealing their liberties. Only three percent of Germans were Nazis in the late 1920s when Hitler rose to power, yet they destroyed their nation and much of the world. Barely three percent of Russians were Communists during Lenin’s revolution yet they managed to enslave and impoverish nearly a billion people for eighty years. Three percent of Americans today call themselves Muslims.
Okay, let's do the math. According to your numbers, there are 260 million Muslims who "follow Allah’s orders as revealed in the Qur’an." That would also mean that there are slightly over one billion Muslims who, by your interpretation, are practicing Islam incorrectly.
It's not MY INTERPRETATION. It's Allah's.
That right there, is the entire problem..
So, now the question of questions.
What makes you a better authority on what Islam is, and how Islam should be practiced, than slightly over one billion Muslims?
I just told you. It doesn't matter what I think or say. Do you want me to show you where it says that Jihad is fighting, and never spiritual? I'll show you where it says that Jihad in incumbant on every Muslim and is a pillar of Islam. I'll show you where it says that whoever leaves their religion, they are to be killed. You see this often so showing you shouldn't even need to happen...but I will. I'll show you the Islamic scripture that says to kill every Jew and wipe out the Christians until they are gone. It says to fight until only Islam is the religion and Allah alone is worshiped. The message is crystal clear if we would only pick up a book and crack it open. Notice that I will "show you", not "tell you". My opinion is worthless, and that means Muslims here should be held to the same standard. Who cares about their opinions? Show me with evidence and scripture......like I do. They can't, and again, that should rings some bells.
I never said anything about converting. It's about having already condemned Muslims for not being Christian.
That's silly. I refute lies. Nothing more. I am not interested in converting anyone, or condemning anyone. It is why I attack words and religions and not people. Muslims attack me personally. Bells????
You said it yourself:
That makes it abundantly clear to me that you will condemn Muslims by any means necessary, but your primary motivation is a conflict in religious ideology.
The third commandment orders me to refute all deception pertaining to Yahuweh. Islam is a full frontal attack on Him. I repudiate the worthless lies pertaining to Islam because it must corrupt His word to lend credibility to itself. I hope you will study the topic before coming to conclusions about me. Can't you tell who the honest one is when reading a debate with myself and Muslims?
I cannot put that any more plain or simple. You presented the statement, and I choose to not accept it based on three undetermined variables:Druweid said:Okay, let's hold it right there, and talk just about that statement for a moment.
I do not want to "lower" that number, I want to reasonably ascertain a correct, falsifiable number.YahwehisHisname said:2 out of 10 is a "minority" but if you'd like to lower the number, fine.
All of which proves nothing. It is prejudicial and not directly related to this discussion.YahwehisHisname said:Did you know that Muslims represented less than three percent of the Meccan population during Muhammads day and yet they conquered the Quraysh, stealing their liberties. Only three percent of Germans were Nazis in the late 1920s when Hitler rose to power, yet they destroyed their nation and much of the world. Barely three percent of Russians were Communists during Lenins revolution yet they managed to enslave and impoverish nearly a billion people for eighty years.
More likely, it's around one pecent. Check here: http://www.adherents.com/largecom/com_islam_usa.htmlYahwehisHisname said:Three percent of Americans today call themselves Muslims.
Your opinion of what is said in the Koran is of no more worthy than my opinion on what Christian scripture "really means." You say the Koran means one thing, over a billion Muslims say it means another. How more clearly can I define the concept of an interpretation?YahwehisHisname said:It's not MY INTERPRETATION. It's Allah's.Druweid said:Okay, let's do the math. According to your numbers, there are 260 million Muslims who "follow Allahs orders as revealed in the Quran." That would also mean that there are slightly over one billion Muslims who, by your interpretation, are practicing Islam incorrectly.
That right there, is the entire problem...
What would be the point? I'm supposed to believe you over the peaceful example set by over a billion Muslims???YahwehisHisname said:I just told you. It doesn't matter what I think or say. Do you want me to show you where it says that Jihad is fighting, and never spiritual? I'll show you where it says that Jihad in incumbant on every Muslim and is a pillar of Islam. I'll show you where it says that whoever leaves their religion, they are to be killed.Druweid said:What makes you a better authority on what Islam is, and how Islam should be practiced, than slightly over one billion Muslims?
Really? So tell me, while you're attacking "religions and not people" exactly what choices do the members of that religion have besides conversion or condemnation?YahwehisHisname said:That's silly. I refute lies. Nothing more. I am not interested in converting anyone, or condemning anyone. It is why I attack words and religions and not people.
Believe me, I see things with alarming clarity.YahwehisHisname said:The third commandment orders me to refute all deception pertaining to Yahuweh. Islam is a full frontal attack on Him. I repudiate the worthless lies pertaining to Islam because it must corrupt His word to lend credibility to itself. I hope you will study the topic before coming to conclusions about me. Can't you tell who the honest one is when reading a debate with myself and Muslims?
I can actually understand that point. Just as christ-ians and jews sometimes have difficulty with the Interpretations of the Bible, so do the Muslims often have difficulty with theirs.Your opinion of what is said in the Koran is of no more worthy than my opinion on what Christian scripture "really means." You say the Koran means one thing, over a billion Muslims say it means another. How more clearly can I define the concept of an interpretation?
So far so good.YahwehisHisname said:One would have to twist and rip from context a biblical verse to condone a violent act. When the scriptures are understood and followed, the message is one that leads to happiness and joy. To think it calls for violence is foolish beyond words since the actual message is the antithesis.
That's when they read the Quran only some parts and ignore most other parts. Why do they did that is on their own motives. Political mostly.Now Islam. One does NOT have to rip from context or twist the verses because the message is crystal clear, and repetitive. It says to kill every Christian and every Jew until Islam is the only religion and Allah alone is worshiped. Am I the only one here that can understand the difference? Oh yeah......they're doing it!
I think it's the other way round. When they ignore most parts of the Quran and follow the parts(and of course twisting it) that suit to their agenda, then they will be unpeaceful Muslims.The only way to be a peaceful Muslim is to ignore the Islamic scriptures, or be ignorant of them. Is that clear enough? Recognize a difference?
warghaha said:So far so good.
That's when they read the Quran only some parts and ignore most other parts. Why do they did that is on their own motives. Political mostly.
Can't understand the point, but when they all say "Allahu Akbar-Allah is greatest" before they kill, we can surmise it is religion and not politics.
I think it's the other way round. When they ignore most parts of the Quran
Ignore what parts? Other than the plagiarized verses stolen from Jews, there is not one single verse that encourages peaceful behavior by Muslims. None. Earlier, I said that I would post 500 nasty verses from Islam's oldest sources for every peaceful one they could bring and someone took me up on it.They lost.
and follow the parts(and of course twisting it)
Nope. I just said this. A Muslim does not have to twist anything. It is very clear. "Kill every Jew", and "wipe the Christians out til the last". A Muslim would have to twist them to be peaceful.
Opposites.
that suit to their agenda, then they will be unpeaceful Muslims.
The "unpeaceful" Muslims are the ones who know the Qur'an best. They know what it says and are doing it. They are acting just like Muhammed. Muslims are ordered to follow his example, and he was a terrorist, so they are also. The ones we call terrorists are loved by Allah. He tells them this many times. It is the peaceful Muslims Allah hates. He reserves the hottest places in hell for them, where he will personally torment them.
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