Is God cruel?

[MoNiCa4316]

In the "God may punish you" thread, we started talking whether or not God is cruel for creating humans, while knowing that a number of them will go to hell. I decided to make a new thread for this, because there are so many topics being discussed in that thread already. Please let's be civil, and stay on topic

So..here's the question:

We are taught that God is outside of time, and knows the future...so when He created humans, He already knew that they will rebel, that He will have to die for them, and that some, or most, of them will reject salvation and go to hell. Regardless of whether or not this is fair, was it cruel of God to make the world?

I don't think it was....but I'm going to write about my position a little later. I'm interested in what you all would say first. I'm hoping this would turn into a deep, philosophical sort of discussion haha.

By the way, keep in mind that we don't know exactly who will go to hell. God looks at people's hearts, and while we know that Christ is the only way to salvation, we don't know what happens to people who have never heard of Him. Do they get to hear the gospel after death? Perhaps. Are they judged based on what they did know? Perhaps...the Bible says that even nature speaks of God, and if we seek, we will find. All we know is that people who have a good knowledge of God but hate Him and live in darkness, will probably go to hell. He will be the judge. The question is...was it cruel of Him to create them?

Discuss

 

[MoNiCa4316]

Another question to think about is....if God was willing to give His own life to save us, doesn't that mean that His motivation for creating was NOT cruelty?

 

[CathNancy]

Interesting that you should ask this question MoNICa because my younger son recently asked a similar question. He asked if God knew that Hitler would be responsible for the deaths of 12 million innocent people, not to mention those who died fighting WWII, why would He create Hitler at all. My response is that God's ways are not ours and He brings good out of evil. The greatest evil committed in this world was the death of our Lord and God Jesus, but out of that evil we can have salvation. I do know that God is goodness, love, mercy and justice and therefore to create evil is not in His nature. Plus the evil perpetuated in this world comes from man and not God. The trials that we are sent help to strengthen our faith and God always gives us the grace necessary to overcome our burdens.

In answer to your question, is God cruel, I would have to say no. God allows evil to exist for His own purpose and I do not pretend to know the mind of God.

God Bless,
Nancy

 

[Dorothea]

I think it all comes down to our free will. Throughout our time on Earth, we make decisions daily, if not nearly every day. God is love, mercy, and justice. I believe what we do, how we respond to His grace, situations in this world, has a lot of pull on where we end up. JMO.

 

[SonOfSophroniscus]

I think it all comes down to our free will. Throughout our time on Earth, we make decisions daily, if not nearly every day. God is love, mercy, and justice. I believe what we do, how we respond to His grace, situations in this world, has a lot of pull on where we end up. JMO.

Yeah, but if God does exist then free will doesn't.

 

[StTherese]

Yeah, but if God does exist then free will doesn't.

Not true.

God created freewill, so therefore it exists.

 

[SonOfSophroniscus]

Not true.

God created freewill, so therefore it exists.

What do you mean by this?

 

[StTherese]

What do you mean by this?

God created man with the ability to choose His will or to reject it...in other words, He created us with freewill. He doesn't force His will upon us.

 

[SonOfSophroniscus]

God created man with the ability to choose His will or to reject it...in other words, He created us with freewill. He doesn't force His will upon us.

If he still exists and possesses omniscience, then he knows what we are going to do before we do it. Or am I wrong in this?

 

[StTherese]

If he still exists and possesses omniscience, then he knows what we are going to do before we do it. Or am I wrong in this?

Knowing what we will choose doesn't take away from our ability to choose. He gives us the grace to choose Him, but He doesn't force the decision upon us, that part is up to us.

 

[SonOfSophroniscus]

Knowing what we will choose doesn't take away from our ability to choose. He gives us the grace to choose Him, but He doesn't force the decision upon us, that part is up to us.

In knowing what we are going to do, we cannot perform any action which was not known prior to God. Do you see?

 

[Jipsah]

OK, let's see. Buford wasn't a bad old boy by human standards. He was always on hand when someone needed help, he was generous, generally kind-hearted, he never intentionally wronged anyone, and he was well-liked by almost everyone who knew him. On the other hand, Buford occasionally drank more than was good for him, his language tended to be a little too salty for polite company, he wasn't entirely forthcoming on his income tax returns, he had an eye for the ladies, and he was known to bend the truth in his own favor from time to time.

Buford never gave much thought to religion because he was never persuaded that there was anything to it but "pie-in-the-sky-by-and-by" and wishful thinking. He had also found a lot of religious folks to be phony and sanctimonious, and that didn't appeal much to him either. So his religion pretty much consisted of bass fishing.

In due course, Buford died. The church folks assure us that since Buford never accepted Christ, that he's now screaming in hell, being tortured in a gruesome fashion, and that he will remain so for all eternity.

Would y'all say that Buford was being treated cruelly or nay?

 

[SonOfSophroniscus]

OK, let's see. Buford wasn't a bad old boy by human standards. He was always on hand when someone needed help, he was generous, generally kind-hearted, he never intentionally wronged anyone, and he was well-liked by almost everyone who knew him. On the other hand, Buford occasionally drank more than was good for him, his language tended to be a little too salty for polite company, he wasn't entirely forthcoming on his income tax returns, he had an eye for the ladies, and he was known to bend the truth in his own favor from time to time.

Buford never gave much thought to religion because he was never persuaded that there was anything to it but "pie-in-the-sky-by-and-by" and wishful thinking. He had also found a lot of religious folks to be phony and sanctimonious, and that didn't appeal much to him either. So his religion pretty much consisted of bass fishing.

In due course, Buford died. The church folks assure us that since Buford never accepted Christ, that he's now screaming in hell, being tortured in a gruesome fashion, and that he will remain so for all eternity.

Would y'all say that Buford was being treated cruelly or nay?

Isn't God omnibeneficient?

 

[Dorothea]

In knowing what we are going to do, we cannot perform any action which was not known prior to God. Do you see?

We can perform any action we choose. It's just God knows what it will be. We don't know what the ultimate outcome will be, but He does. Does that help?

 

[JayJay77]

This is a good debate, so let's get back to the OP. Let's put it this way: If you put a bunch of starfish out on the shore in the hot sun just a few feet away from the water, and knew that over half of them would die, would it be cruel of you to do in the first place?

Remember, don't think He's not cruel just because you're the one who's "saved." Think of what the millions in hell would say in this debate.

 

[Kristos]

In the "God may punish you" thread, we started talking whether or not God is cruel for creating humans, while knowing that a number of them will go to hell. I decided to make a new thread for this, because there are so many topics being discussed in that thread already. Please let's be civil, and stay on topic

So..here's the question:

We are taught that God is outside of time, and knows the future...so when He created humans, He already knew that they will rebel, that He will have to die for them, and that some, or most, of them will reject salvation and go to hell. Regardless of whether or not this is fair, was it cruel of God to make the world?

I don't think it was....but I'm going to write about my position a little later. I'm interested in what you all would say first. I'm hoping this would turn into a deep, philosophical sort of discussion haha.

By the way, keep in mind that we don't know exactly who will go to hell. God looks at people's hearts, and while we know that Christ is the only way to salvation, we don't know what happens to people who have never heard of Him. Do they get to hear the gospel after death? Perhaps. Are they judged based on what they did know? Perhaps...the Bible says that even nature speaks of God, and if we seek, we will find. All we know is that people who have a good knowledge of God but hate Him and live in darkness, will probably go to hell. He will be the judge. The question is...was it cruel of Him to create them?

Discuss

Who teaches that?

God is ineffable.
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[R3quiem]

I would think that if he were to create mankind knowing that even one of them would suffer agony for all eternity, then it was cruel, especially if he made hell to begin with.

As for the whole omniscient vs free will debate, there are just too many variables to consider. One thing to think about, however, is that if God made the universe knowing every tiny thing that would happen and every single choice every being would make, then he must have been fine with all of it. If he saw something ahead he did not like, he would have done it differently- so if God truly is omnipotent and omniscient, then he knew exactly what he was doing with every detail when making all of existence. Every tiny thing would be working exactly as he had planned, because if it were not, he would have made things differently or is lacking one of those two omni-qualities.

Sure, one could say that forknowledge doesn't mean it takes away free will, but if the being in question is God, then yes, it could take away free will. If every single action ahead of time was known by God, and it all works out like he wants it to, then everyone is playing right into his hands- if a choice were to come up that he is not fond of, then he would not have planned ahead for that choice to begin with and it would not happen.

 

[Dorothea]

I just don't think we're his puppets. He gave us free will to choose him freely. He wants us to come to him with our own accord, not like a puppet on a string.

 

[SonOfSophroniscus]

We can perform any action we choose. It's just God knows what it will be. We don't know what the ultimate outcome will be, but He does. Does that help?

Thi seems almost incoherent. We can perform any action we wish, but God just knows the outcome? This seems to render his omniscience to some kind of crystall-ball gazing.

 

[SonOfSophroniscus]

This is a good debate, so let's get back to the OP. Let's put it this way: If you put a bunch of starfish out on the shore in the hot sun just a few feet away from the water, and knew that over half of them would die, would it be cruel of you to do in the first place?

Remember, don't think He's not cruel just because you're the one who's "saved." Think of what the millions in hell would say in this debate.

Somewhere in the Bible it says that all animals are lower to man, and exist simply to expedite his wishes?