Is God cruel?

[MoNiCa4316]

No, it's not.

...I think that Masked Chris is right about this...I learned the same thing in my sociology class. World hunger is caused by the concentration of wealth in certain countries, like America/Canada/etc. Another contributing factor is that 'poor countries' seem to have basically no middle class: the rich own everything, and the poor have nothing. But it is true that we own lots of resources that many other countries don't have. Well..that's what it says in my textbook for sociology But I've only taken the first year class, so probably it's more complicated. But it IS one of the factors.

 

[MoNiCa4316]

"the bible teaches about purety, love, joy, courege, self-sacrifice and infinite happiness. these are quilities that the wicked loath. The wicked prefer defilement, hatred, corwardness, selfishness and infinite misery for both themselves and others. these are quilties that heaven could never offer the wicked. That's pretty much what the whole book is about."

hey thats not right, to say that the wicked (unbelievers) have those nasty qualities and the believers the nice ones. in reality this is definitely not so. there are lots of kind compassionate etc. non-christians. i dont think i'll read that book.

Hey I think you're misunderstood Lewis does not even talk about Christians/non Christians. He just says that those who have these good characteristics (purity, love, joy, courage, self sacrifice, etc) are closer to heaven than those who don't. And then he goes on to explain why. The whole book is just about how pride, anger, selfishness, etc, has no place in heaven, and that if we want to go to heaven we should be willing to let go of these things.

 

[StTherese]

Sure God could have theoretically done it another way, but that wouldn't have been the BEST way. He chose the best way.

Exactly

How can someone think they know a better way than God?

 

[Jipsah]

world hunger is caused by americans like you and me who simply have to much.

That's assuming that there's a finite amount of stuff in the world, which isn't true. If I have three chairs, it doesn't mean that someone in Africa will be shorted three chairs. The guy in Africa can make himself seven chairs, and the result is that I have three, he has seven, and the world's chair supply has increased. The same holds true for taters, cars, radios, & etc. It isn't a zero sum game.

If it weren't for the economic drive of countries like ours than everyone would have enough to eat

<Laugh> How do you reckon? Where would all the necessary food come from?

global climate change is caused by our own pullution of the planet.

Probably not. We don't produce enough CO2 to make that much difference.

We ALL know it's caused by our own defilement of the planet.

I don't know any such thing, and most folks who "know" it don't really have any idea what they're talking about.

Just out of curiousity, have you ever read the execrable novel "Ishmael"? It's narrated by a gorilla (yeah, a gorilla), and the premise is that the only way that the world will survive is if humans return to the good old days of hunting/gathering.

 

[Jipsah]

the thing I like about the book is that it seems to define a Christain person by these traits. It doesn't say a Christain person has these traits only, he says that those who have these traits ARE Christain people. if that makes sense.

It doesn't. Christians are Christians based on what they believe. You can be a very nice person and not be a Christian. For instance, neither a very nice Jew or a very charitable Muslim is a Christian, bexcause they don't believe the things that Christians believe. Simple, really.

 

[Jipsah]

It isn't lack of "wit' that ends someone in hell....

To great extent it is. If you're not clever enough to be persuaded to "accept Christ", then into the roaster you go.

 

[SonicBOOM]

It doesn't. Christians are Christians based on what they believe. You can be a very nice person and not be a Christian. For instance, neither a very nice Jew or a very charitable Muslim is a Christian, bexcause they don't believe the things that Christians believe. Simple, really.

well that brings a troubling quistion and actully brings us back to the original debate. Does God judge us by our works or by our faith? the answer is obvious of course... but what about unbeleivers? Is it just for God to send a hypocritical Christain with a vile heart to heaven and an elderly atheist with a heart of gold to hell? To me it seems that judgement and redemtion depend more upon God purefying our hearts to be good and not so much on accepting a relegein. I will name just a few passages that reflect this.

James 2:17-18 (New American Standard Bible)

17Even so (A)faith, if it has no works, is dead, being by itself.
18(B)But someone may well say, "You have faith and I have works; show me your (C)faith without the works, and I will (D)show you my faith (E)by my works."


Matthew 7:16-18 (New American Standard Bible)


16"You will (A)know them by their fruits. Grapes are not gathered from thorn bushes nor figs from thistles, are they?

17"So (B)every good tree bears good fruit, but the bad tree bears bad fruit. 18"A good tree cannot produce bad fruit, nor can a bad tree produce good fruit.


<H3>Matthew 8:11-12 (New American Standard Bible)

11"I say to you that many (A)will come from east and west, and [a]recline at the table with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven;
12but (B)the sons of the kingdom will be cast out into (C)the outer darkness; in that place (D)there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth."

</H3>Luke 6:46 (New American Standard Bible)


46"(A)Why do you call Me, 'Lord, Lord,' and do not do what I say?


so faith rests on more than accepting the Christain relegein. Christ's sacrifice frees us from sin and death. what does this mean? It means that we now have the power to say "no" to evil and sin... and those of us who choose to willfully live in sin wether they accept the Christain relegein or not are the ones who will be cast out of the kingdom. those of us who have accepted Christ now have God's power to purefy our hearts. Though if we are Christain and choose to willfully live in sin than we won't see the kingdom. Is this not the message of scripture?

 

[pippa]

Hey I think you're misunderstood Lewis does not even talk about Christians/non Christians. He just says that those who have these good characteristics (purity, love, joy, courage, self sacrifice, etc) are closer to heaven than those who don't. And then he goes on to explain why. The whole book is just about how pride, anger, selfishness, etc, has no place in heaven, and that if we want to go to heaven we should be willing to let go of these things.

but it said 'the wicked lack these qualities', and that is not so. wicked being defined as unbelievers. does he think the lovely buddhists and muslems are closer to heaven than mean christians?

 

[MoNiCa4316]

but it said 'the wicked lack these qualities', and that is not so. wicked being defined as unbelievers. does he think the lovely buddhists and muslems are closer to heaven than mean christians?

In the book, wicked is not defined as unbelieving, but rather as having evil thoughts/actions and refusing to repent of them. Somewhere these two things (wicked and unbelieving) probably become one, like if a person doesn't want to believe just because that involves repentance....but CS Lewis does not treat them as synonymous in the novel.

By the way, have you ever read CS Lewis' "Chronicles of Narnia"? In Narnia they worship Aslan, who symbolizes the real God...and in another country they worship a demon called Tash. Well in the end, a man who faithfully worshipped Tash, believing that he was a good God, ends up in heaven. Lewis took his faith pretty seriously, and always said that objective Truth matters, but he seem to believe that people of other religions could potentially be saved too. So I don't know, you might like his books I like them a lot. Lewis was Anglican, but wrote mostly from a general Christian perspective.

(by the way, I would add that real faith results in good works, and if there aren't good works, then there might not be real faith...although only God knows for sure, and we should not judge people according to that. Only ourselves. Because what if a person is sort of a "mean Christian", but before their conversion they were even meaner? That means that they DID improve...that matters a lot in the end, because their original "meanness" might not even be their fault, but just how they were raised, etc. Do you see what I mean? It's the change that matters. We all start out with varying degrees of 'goodness' and 'badness').

 

[MoNiCa4316]

To great extent it is. If you're not clever enough to be persuaded to "accept Christ", then into the roaster you go.

It is not by "wit" that we are given faith, but by the Holy Spirit... God does not require anyone to be 'clever' to follow Him, especially according to the world's definition of the word.