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razeontherock

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I have noticed that there is nothing more damaging than a falsely negative view of God. I've noticed a lot of animosity from people who think God as revealed by the Christian Bible is an unsavory character. (I've had to deal with those issues myself)

So, what awful things do you think you can justly accuse God of, in the here and now? And how would you react if you were to see that as a false conception, refuted both by the early Church and Scripture?"

[I will ask any mods encountering this to be lenient and give leeway for honest expression, and I will also ask posters not to use this as an occasion to bash Christians, nor to blame God for human mistakes. Elements of actual Christian teaching would of course be open season, but will be subject to correction if it constitutes false teaching.]
 

SithDoughnut

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The existence of evil. I know that there is the whole "evil is just the absence of good" argument that is summed up in that chain email I've seen occasionally, but then you still have to deal with the fact that God created a system in which good could be absent.

That doesn't mean that God is at fault for all evil actions, just that he is responsible for creating an environment in which they could happen, presumably (I say presumably because I know that omniscience is regularly debated subject) with the knowledge that evil would occur in it. If you give a knife to a man who you know will stab someone, then you have to take some responsibility for what follows. That doesn't put you at fault for the actual stabbing, but it does put you are fault for presenting the opportunity for a murder you knew would happen.

Of course, if God didn't know what was going happen, then he is at fault for allowing such a state of affairs to continue. To continue with the analogy, you give a man a knife and you see him go to stab someone. If you don't make any attempt to stop him, even though you know with certainty that you could, you again have some level of responsibility for allowing the murder to occur.

EDIT: You could probably throw in a lot of the OT too, but then I find that the OT really describes who God truly is, rather than the NT's narrow Jesus-centred view.
 
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1000Flames

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My interpretation of the Bible leads me to believe he is an unsavory character. As usual, that means I was not "guided by the Holy Spirit." Tough cookies for me. I'm with Sith on this thread, but additionally, the character presented in the Old Testament is drastically different than the New Testament God. That speaks enough for me.

To answer your questions, assuming the Bible is true, I have no reason to believe that God did better making any form of Heaven versus Earth. He screwed this place up, and a "trust me on this one" just wouldn't suffice for me, especially from a suppose God character. (I could definitely have a wrong expectation of what a "God" is suppose to be, I'd admit that. Demi-gods just don't interest me though)

I would react in a surprised manner if the Early Church or Scriptures dealt with any of that.
 
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SithDoughnut

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2Sam 22:27 With the pure thou wilt shew thyself pure; and with the froward thou wilt shew thyself unsavoury.

Thats a scriptural principle, to shew himself unsavoury

If we assume the Bible is a true document inspired by God, then of course he's going to try to paint himself in a good light, no? Blaming other people is a good way of avoiding any yourself.
 
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Fireinfolding

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If we assume the Bible is a true document inspired by God, then of course he's going to try to paint himself in a good light, no? Blaming other people is a good way of avoiding any yourself.

If He paints himself in a good light (so to speak) why would He be perceived by so many as "not so" then?

2Sam 22:26 With the merciful thou wilt shew thyself merciful, and with the upright man thou wilt shew thyself upright.

It appears he shews himself to one (one way) or as in the prior (another)
 
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dazed

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I found that I could accept the OT God than the NT God. With the exception of Noah's flood, it's quite reasonable to call him a loving God. He was wiping out the enemies of the Israelites. The logic falls apart when you trying to expand the Jewish god to the gentiles. He commanded people not to kill, covet but He, time after time, delivered the enemies and their properties to the Israelites. I would have commanded the Pharaoh to install the 10 commandments instead of former slaves. It's like giving the perfect plan to a janitor, instead to the CEO of the company.
 
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razeontherock

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2Sam 22:26 With the merciful thou wilt shew thyself merciful, and with the upright man thou wilt shew thyself upright.

It appears he shews himself to one (one way) or as in the prior (another)

So you're saying the same God can reveal Himself differently, to different people? Well that sure would explain a lot, that unbelievers here typically object to
 
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oi_antz

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I would have commanded the Pharaoh to install the 10 commandments instead of former slaves. It's like giving the perfect plan to a janitor, instead to the CEO of the company.
That doesn't show Him as a sadist, it only shows that He preferred the nature of the janitor over the nature of the CEO, and from what I observe in the story of how the Israelites became slaves of Egypt, I would tend to agree with His judgment.
 
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Eudaimonist

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God wouldn't be a "sadist" (that is, lacking in benevolence for mankind) if only you can drop one of two things: eternal hell/suffering, or omniscience. You can't have both and have a good God. Any omniscient and good God would not create humanity knowing in advance that even one individual would end up in hell for an eternity without a way of escape.


eudaimonia,

Mark
 
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Fireinfolding

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So you're saying the same God can reveal Himself differently, to different people? Well that sure would explain a lot, that unbelievers here typically object to

Sure, I suppose in various places it speaks of such a thing

John 14:21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

I mean look at the wicked guy in the parable, he sure wasnt merciful (ie handed over to the tormentors) so did He manifest himself as merciful to the actions of the unmerciful? Well, I suppose one could say, yes, because the wicked servant was at first the forgiven servant, however judgment without mercy is shown rendered in that he shewed no mercy after the fact. There was a TILL in that parable.

However, Jesus said be ye merciful as He is merciful. But adds thus will he do unto you likewise (and it related to mercy).

However, I get how thats harder to see in the OT

For example here...

1Sam 15:3 Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass.


But of you follow the story, for example we see ...

Duet 25:17 Remember what Amalek did unto thee by the way, when ye were come forth out of Egypt;

Duet 25:18 How he met thee by the way, and smote the hindmost of thee, even all that were feeble behind thee, when thou wast faint and weary; and he feared not God.

So he determined...

Duet 25:19 Therefore it shall be, when the LORD thy God hath given thee rest from all thine enemies round about, in the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee for an inheritance to possess it, that thou shalt blot out the remembrance of Amalek from under heaven; thou shalt not forget it.


So he says...

1Sam 15:2 Thus saith the LORD of hosts, I remember that which Amalek did to Israel, how he laid wait for him in the way, when he came up from Egypt.

Then here (again) its continuing...

1Sam 15:3 Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass.

Vessels for his wrath here...(and the whole thing with Saul)

1Sam 28:18 Because thou obeyedst not the voice of the LORD, nor executedst his fierce wrath upon Amalek, therefore hath the LORD done this thing unto thee this day.

So Samuel takes care of it saying

1Sam 15:3 And Samuel said, As thy sword hath made women childless, so shall thy mother be childless among women. And Samuel hewed Agag in pieces before the LORD in Gilgal.


Which is...

Lev 24:20 Breach for breach, eye for eye, tooth for tooth: as he hath caused a blemish in a man, so shall it be done to him again.


And...

Duet 19:21 And thine eye shall not pity; but life shall go for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot.

Wheras now Jesus author of the New covenant says...

Mat 5:38 Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth:


Mat 5:39 But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.

So there is a "But I say unto you"

I cant say I know everything nor could answer for everything, I do know over time my questions little by little have eventually been answered. So I too have questions on things, and I dont mind my questions.

Mine would be why war generation after generation, that type thing. What am I not getting, that sorta thing.
 
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Fireinfolding

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Death and hell give up the dead in them in revelation, so it cannot be a forever thing if they give UP the dead. Also death and hell are cast into the lake of fire, which is called the second death, which has no power over overcomers. However the lake of fire that is said to be forever.
 
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EDIT: You could probably throw in a lot of the OT too, but then I find that the OT really describes who God truly is, rather than the NT's narrow Jesus-centred view.

The OT Deity owns up that He created both good and evil and Satan is just another one of His lackies. You don't have to like it. That is just the way it is and there is nothing we can do about it.
 
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oi_antz

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Is there any judgment He has made that you disagree with?
Not as long as I exercise the utmost humility. Obviously I would have preferred that New Jerusalem would be established before I was born, or that Jesus could have established the kingdom without needing to suffer. You know what Jesus would say though:

New Living Translation (©2007)
Jesus turned to Peter and said, "Get away from me, Satan! You are a dangerous trap to me. You are seeing things merely from a human point of view, not from God's."
 
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Eudaimonist

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I have heard a number of very different interpretations from Christians about this issue. Some insist that there is some form of eternal suffering for the unsaved, and wherever that takes place ("hell" or the "lake of fire"), that's what I mean by hell.

Some others insist that God withholds the gift of eternal life from the unsaved, so that the unsaved cease to exist, possibly in that lake of fire. Whether this makes God benevolent or not is at least a little ambiguous. It has been argued at these boards before that eternal life might not be as great a "gift" as it is cracked up to be. In any case, this option leads to other ethical issues.


eudaimonia,

Mark
 
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Jane_the_Bane

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"Sadism" would imply that God derives pleasure from causing pain, and causes suffering for his own enjoyment.

I don't think that's an accurate description of the literary character we find in the OT:

OT-God is described as a vicious tyrant modeled after ancient middle eastern rulers and kings, and his violence is not an end in itself, nor does he engage in it as a form of entertainment.

Instead, it's mostly employed to demonstrate his power, to intimidate his followers, and to dispatch those who act contrary to his wishes, pose an obstacle, or are simply perceived as a potential nuisance.

He's like a schoolyard bully beating up the fat kid on the first day, strongly implying: "this could be you". Even the slightest provocation will be requited with harsh retribution, either directly by him or by those who've flocked to his banner. Sometimes, he even orders his gang to punish one of his own in a most vicious fashion, just to keep them in line.
 
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SithDoughnut

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The OT Deity owns up that He created both good and evil and Satan is just another one of His lackies. You don't have to like it. That is just the way it is and there is nothing we can do about it.

I know
 
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